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Tor the Fallen
2007-08-15, 12:46 AM
What would be a good creature to turn the party fighter into? Preferably one that has enough arms to use a weapon. It's 3.0, so polymorph other can turn him into anything from a giant to an ooze to a dragon, and permanently.

I'm looking at Firbolg for pure damage goodness, or some Devil (demon?) creature with 35 dex and 10 or 15 NA.

Books are:
MM1 (3.0)
MM2
MM3
Draconomicon
XPH
Races of Eberron
Lords of Madness


Also, what would be a good form to take as a Wizard? I'm thinking something of small size or smaller, with flight and kickass AC. Maybe a bug of some sort?

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 12:51 AM
How many HD does the fighter have? Polymorph is capped by HD.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-15, 12:55 AM
13, going on 14.

Iku Rex
2007-08-15, 01:07 AM
Firbolg is good, war troll (MM3) is even better.

(You can't turn the fighter into an outsider with polymorph other unless he already has the outsider type.)

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-15, 01:09 AM
Firbolg is good, war troll (MM3) is even better.

(You can't turn the fighter into an outsider with polymorph other unless he already has the outsider type.)

Are either of those Outsiders? I thought Firbolg was a Giant.

Iku Rex
2007-08-15, 01:12 AM
Are either of those Outsiders?

No, but you were talking about turning him into a demon (Kelvezu, MMII, BTW) in the OP.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 01:15 AM
The War Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6) is about as good as it gets, what with the +14 NA, 31 STR/16 DEX/29 CON, and ridiculous Dazing Blow.

Iku Rex
2007-08-15, 01:21 AM
The War Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6) is about as good as it gets, what with the +14 NA, 31 STR/16 DEX/29 CON, and ridiculous Dazing Blow.(Another nitpick: You won't get dazing blow with 3.0 polymorph other, as it's an extraordinary ability. "The subject does not gain the supernatural abilities or the extraordinary abilities of the new creature.")

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-15, 01:22 AM
The War Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6) is about as good as it gets, what with the +14 NA, 31 STR/16 DEX/29 CON, and ridiculous Dazing Blow.

Dazing Blow doesn't work though, does it? I thought you didn't get any of the extraordinary abilities of the creature, such as fire resistance or regeneration.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 01:28 AM
Dazing Blow is a Special Attack, and Polymorph explicitly gives special attacks.

So, yeah.

Inyssius Tor
2007-08-15, 01:29 AM
You don't get any of the extraordinary special qualities of the creature, such as fire resistance and regeneration. You do get all of the extraordinary special attacks of the creature, such as Improved Grab, Poison, Rake, Pounce, or Dazing Blow.

EDIT: Blast, ninja'd. Damn you to damnation, Reel On!

Iku Rex
2007-08-15, 01:36 AM
Dazing Blow is a Special Attack, and Polymorph explicitly gives special attacks.And if the OP was using polymorph that would be a good point. However, he's playing 3.0 and polymorph other explicitly does not give you extraordinary abilities, special attack or not.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 01:41 AM
And if the OP was using polymorph that would be a good point. However, he's playing 3.0 and polymorph other explicitly does not give you extraordinary abilities, special attack or not.

Oh. 3.0, huh? People still do that? Who knew.

Well, the War Troll is still good for the NA and STR/DEX/CON.

greenknight
2007-08-15, 02:37 AM
(You can't turn the fighter into an outsider with polymorph other unless he already has the outsider type.)

Not true for 3.0 Polymorph Other. As far as I can tell, the only limitation mentioned is with regard to size (Diminutive to one size larger than the subject's normal form).


Polymorph is capped by HD.

Also not true for 3.0, as far as I can tell.

Given that the 3.0 version is pretty much open slather, just look for some Large creature (assuming the Fighter is normally Medium sized) with good Strength, Dexterity and Constitution scores (Con is very important, since it affects final HP in 3.0). If nothing else, go with Balor (Demon) since it has excellent speed (including natural flight), good ability scores and a +19 Natural Armor bonus.

Not sure what the best choice would be for a Wizard, but Balor's still pretty good since you'd get a massive boost to hitpoints and your Concentration check through that high Constitution.

Iku Rex
2007-08-15, 06:54 AM
Greenknight, you're looking at the wrong version of polymorph other. The most recent errata, and AFAIK the only one available for free from WotC is the polymorph self in the PsiHB errata. (Psionic powers with the same name as spells are supposed to work the same, and polymorph self is based on polymorph other.)


p. 92, Polymorph Self: Replace entire entry with this:
Polymorph Self
Psychometabolism (Str)
Level: Psion 4/Psychic Warrior 4
Display: Ma, Ol
Manifestation Time: 1 action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Power Points: 7
You change your form to that of another creature. The new form can range in size from Diminutive to one size category larger than your normal form. It can have no more Hit Dice than you have, and in any case the assumed
form cannot have more than 15 Hit Dice. You cannot change into a construct, elemental, outsider, or undead unless you are already are that type.
Upon changing, you regain lost hit points as if having rested for a day (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting for a day; and changing back does not heal you
further). If slain, you revert to your original form, though you remain dead.
You acquire the physical and natural abilities of the new form: natural size, physical ability scores (average Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution for your new form’s kind), natural armor, natural weapons (such as claws or
bite, but not petrification, breath weapons, energy drain, energy effects, or the like), and similar gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not
allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. Natural abilities also include mundane movement capabilities, such as walking, swimming, and flight with wings.
You do not acquire the extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities of your new form. You cannot change into a variant form of a creature, such as a half-dragon ogre. Incorporeal or gaseous forms cannot be assumed.
You retain your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change to your Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. (New Strength, Dexterity, and
Constitution scores may affect final attack and save bonuses.) You retain your extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not your supernatural abilities (if any). You can manifest powers, or cast spells for which you have components, but you need a humanlike voice for verbal components and humanlike hands for somatic components.
If your new form is a fey, giant, humanoid, shapechanger, or undead, your equipment changes to match the new form and retains its properties. Otherwise, it melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. Melded material components and focuses cannot be used to cast spells. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its original form.
You choose your form’s physical qualities (such as hair color, height, and gender), but they must fall within the normal ranges for the form. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this power to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. The relevant rules are the same in the polymorph other versions published in Dragon magazine and in Tome and Blood.


The new form can range in size from Diminutive to one size larger than the subject’s normal form, and can have no more Hit Dice than you have, or that the subject has (whichever is greater), and in any case the assumed form cannot have more than 15 Hit Dice. You cannot change subjects into constructs, elementals, outsiders, or undead unless they already are one of these types.

Akennedy
2007-08-15, 07:27 AM
Ogre Mage - You get all it's Spell-like abilities, which technically means you can indefinitely stay an ogre mage. (If I'm Not Mistaken)

An ogre mage has polymorph under it's spell-like abilities. So, you morph into one, use all its spell like abilities, save polymorph, then polymorph again into an ogre mage, refreshing your spell-like abilities, and having polymorph again!

I think it works?

Iku Rex
2007-08-15, 08:52 AM
Akennedy, you don't get spell-like abilities of the new form in any version of polymorph. The rule can be found in the post above yours. "You do not acquire the extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities of your new form."

Ranis
2007-08-15, 08:54 AM
Rukanyr in the Fiend Folio. You get a slam, six claws, three bites, and with a potion of Girallion's Strength you can hold your weapons like normal. :D

Citizen Joe
2007-08-15, 09:07 AM
I thought it said you don't get any more attacks than you normally can.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-15, 09:13 AM
Well if polymorph other isn't capped by HD, why don't you just copy some demon lord or archdevil (sure you might be hunted, but you would as a balor too).
Pazuzu had +30 natural armor, str 28, dex 36, con 35

Citizen Joe
2007-08-15, 09:30 AM
You can't polymorph into an outsider, and HD is capped by the lower of (15, caster level, the recipient's HD).

see spoiler for relevant spell description

Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form canít have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subjectís HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You canít cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subjectís creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
Material Component

An empty cocoon.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-15, 11:45 AM
Do you use the 3.0 PHB polymorph or the 3.0 Tome and Blood polymorph?

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-16, 02:16 AM
It's 3.0 PHB Polymorph Other.

That means, as per my OP, I'm simply looking for the best suite of NA and ability scores, since, in 3.0, the entry explicitly states you don't get any of the special attacks of the assumed form.

greenknight
2007-08-16, 02:41 AM
In that case, Balor's a good choice.

Iku Rex
2007-08-16, 02:52 AM
It's 3.0 PHB Polymorph Other.
The DM isn't using errata?