On The Topic of a Primordial Half Minotaur Half Ogre Lesser Tiefling

[GiantFlyingHog]

1) Is there anything obvious that says that I cannot play one?
2) Can it grow a magnificent beard?

[ZamielVanWeber]

1) This is legal, provided half-ogre is applied before primordial. Remember the size increase will only come from one template and your final LA will be +2 with a type Giant (Planetouched).

2) If you so desire it to.

[GiantFlyingHog]

1) This is legal, provided half-ogre is applied before primordial. Remember the size increase will only come from one template and your final LA will be +2 with a type Giant (Planetouched).

2) If you so desire it to.

One LA from Half-minotaur, where does the other come from?

[ZamielVanWeber]

So I badly misremembered Dragon's half-ogre template. It does not make you a giant so you cannot take primordial but it also not give you a level adjustment.

[Zanos]

Why lesser tiefling? Go water orc for that sick +4 str/+2 con. Penalties to all mentals, but let's be serious: you weren't using those anyway.

[GiantFlyingHog]

So I badly misremembered Dragon's half-ogre template. It does not make you a giant so you cannot take primordial but it also not give you a level adjustment.

I believe Giant Blood would let you take Primordial, but that might be a bit of a stretch.


Why lesser tiefling? Go water orc for that sick +4 str/+2 con. Penalties to all mentals, but let's be serious: you weren't using those anyway.

Actually, I was considering playing a Factotum (albeit not a perfectly optimized one) so I kind of need the intelligence.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I believe Giant Blood would let you take Primordial, but that might be a bit of stretch.

Giant Blood means you count as a giant for "abilities and effects." Template requirements are neither.

[GiantFlyingHog]

Giant Blood means you count as a giant for "abilities and effects." Template requirements are neither.

Dang. Oh well, now I just need to figure out if I want to change to a different race and stay with factotum or ditch factotum entirely.

[Blue Jay]

Giant Blood means you count as a giant for "abilities and effects." Template requirements are neither.

Is there an official ruling on what all counts as "effects"? Games I've played in have always treated feats and templates as "effects" for purposes like this. I always figured we were houseruling that, but I never delved too deeply, because it meant my half-nymph qualified for Charming the Arrow.

I've also never played in a game that allowed half-minotaur.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Dang. Oh well, now I just need to figure out if I want to change to a different race and stay with factotum or ditch factotum entirely.

This is a stretch but menta cyclopean may be a giant and thus can take half-minotaur and primordial giant. You would only net a +2 Int but get amazing other stat mods.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Is there an official ruling on what all counts as "effects"? Games I've played in have always treated feats and templates as "effects" for purposes like this. I always figured we were houseruling that, but I never delved too deeply, because it meant my half-nymph qualified for Charming the Arrow.

If there is no rules definition for effect AFAIK, so we go to the dictionary: a change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.

A prerequisite is not a change. It is the gate you must to cause a change.

[Rebel7284]

This is a stretch but menta cyclopean may be a giant and thus can take half-minotaur and primordial giant. You would only net a +2 Int but get amazing other stat mods.

Last time I read the cycopean article with an extra focus on type, I recall being fairly convinced that they are humanoid.

Half Giant is the usual race that Primordial is applied to. Adding Half-Minotaur on top of that would work nicely.

Your stats would be:
Half Giant: +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex
Primordial: -4 Str, -2 Con, +4 Int, +4 Cha
Half Minotaur: +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int

For total stats modification of +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, +2 Int, +4 Cha
As per template description, you would also apply Stats bonuses for growing in size, although I prefer to skip that part to retain some shred of balance.

You also get large size and powerful build which gives you some huge weapons which can be nice.

2LA.

[GiantFlyingHog]

This is a stretch but menta cyclopean may be a giant and thus can take half-minotaur and primordial giant. You would only net a +2 Int but get amazing other stat mods.


Last time I read the cycopean article with an extra focus on type, I recall being fairly convinced that they are humanoid.

Half Giant is the usual race that Primordial is applied to. Adding Half-Minotaur on top of that would work nicely.

Your stats would be:
Half Giant: +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex
Primordial: -4 Str, -2 Con, +4 Int, +4 Cha
Half Minotaur: +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int

For total stats modification of +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, +2 Int, +4 Cha
As per template description, you would also apply Stats bonuses for growing in size, although I prefer to skip that part to retain some shred of balance.

You also get large size and powerful build which gives you some huge weapons which can be nice.

2LA.

I think I would have to side with Rebel on this one. The cyclops doesn't seem to actually specify, but I pull off enough things that annoy my DM without possible rules violations. Oh well, Half Minotaur Half Ogre Water Orc Frenzied Berserker it is.

[Blue Jay]

If there is no rules definition for effect AFAIK, so we go to the dictionary: a change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.

A prerequisite is not a change. It is the gate you must to cause a change.

I don't feel like the "appeal to dictionary" technique is ever an effective approach to resolving game mechanics. In this case, the "effect" isn't the prerequisite, but the template (a template is a change to a creature as a result or consequence of... etc). So, when I see "for all abilities and effects, a half-ogre counts as a giant," I see "for the purposes of qualifying for templates, a half-ogre counts as a giant."

The wording for half-nymph is different, so that's clearly a house rule we're using.


Last time I read the cycopean article with an extra focus on type, I recall being fairly convinced that they are humanoid.

Half Giant is the usual race that Primordial is applied to. Adding Half-Minotaur on top of that would work nicely.

Your stats would be:
Half Giant: +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex
Primordial: -4 Str, -2 Con, +4 Int, +4 Cha
Half Minotaur: +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int

For total stats modification of +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, +2 Int, +4 Cha
As per template description, you would also apply Stats bonuses for growing in size, although I prefer to skip that part to retain some shred of balance.

You also get large size and powerful build which gives you some huge weapons which can be nice.

2LA.

The reason my DM's have always banned half-minotaur (and half-ogre, for that matter), is because those templates specifically also give you additional ability-score boosts if you increase in size. They refer you specifically to the table in the Monster Manual that says you get +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 NA for going up a size category, and they say that the template's changes are in addition to that. So, if you apply half-minotaur to a Medium-sized creature, you actually get +12 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, and +4 NA, on top of your base racial bonuses.

I could never understand why the writers of that Dragon article thought Half-Satyr was worth more LA than Half-Ogre.

[GiantFlyingHog]

The reason my DM's have always banned half-minotaur (and half-ogre, for that matter), is because those templates specifically also give you additional ability-score boosts if you increase in size. They refer you specifically to the table in the Monster Manual that says you get +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 NA for going up a size category, and they say that the template's changes are in addition to that. So, if you apply half-minotaur to a Medium-sized creature, you actually get +12 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, and +4 NA, on top of your base racial bonuses.

I could never understand why the writers of that Dragon article thought Half-Satyr was worth more LA than Half-Ogre.

Are Dragon articles ever balanced? I admit my experience is limited, but they always seem very... odd. Though that can apply to most of 3.5.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Are Dragon articles ever balanced? I admit my experience is limited, but they always seem very... odd. Though that can apply to most of 3.5.
They are generally underpowered, much like most of 3.5. A few things are cool and the OP stuff stands out pretty painfully.


I don't feel like the "appeal to dictionary" technique is ever an effective approach to resolving game mechanics. In this case, the "effect" isn't the prerequisite, but the template (a template is a change to a creature as a result or consequence of... etc). So, when I see "for all abilities and effects, a half-ogre counts as a giant," I see "for the purposes of qualifying for templates, a half-ogre counts as a giant."
Using an accepted definition of a word is less effective than redefining the word each time you use it? DM Marty would be proud.


Last time I read the cycopean article with an extra focus on type, I recall being fairly convinced that they are humanoid.
Half Giant is the usual race that Primordial is applied to. Adding Half-Minotaur on top of that would work nicely.

I said it was a stretch. The only problem with half-giant half-minotaur is the +2 LA, otherwise I would have recommended it instead.

[Manyasone]

I wonder how it works. Bob the lesser tiefling who is half a giant and half a minotaur.... Makes him what? 150% more real?

[Rebel7284]

The reason my DM's have always banned half-minotaur (and half-ogre, for that matter), is because those templates specifically also give you additional ability-score boosts if you increase in size. They refer you specifically to the table in the Monster Manual that says you get +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 NA for going up a size category, and they say that the template's changes are in addition to that. So, if you apply half-minotaur to a Medium-sized creature, you actually get +12 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, and +4 NA, on top of your base racial bonuses.

I could never understand why the writers of that Dragon article thought Half-Satyr was worth more LA than Half-Ogre.

Yes, banning the RAW Half Minotaur is a perfectly valid solution. +12 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, and +4 NA is very clearly outside of what a LA +1 template is supposed to do. That's more powerful than most LA +3 templates...

However, the fix to bring it in line with other (good) LA +1 templates and LA +1 races is so simple, that it seems like a good option too. The players get more toys to play with while the DM doesn't need to do any complex home-brewing/balancing.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Using an accepted definition of a word is less effective than redefining the word each time you use it? DM Marty would be proud.
The problem is more that dictionaries are awfully bad at providing complete definitions. That's not just my opinion, but literally what a linguistics professor told me (it's a pet peeve of his). Dictionaries are about morphology (declensions, irregular plurals, what-have-you), lexical categories (noun, verb, etcetera), and other morphosyntactical oddities, but crucially not meaning. You need a really high-quality professional dictionary/encyclopedia (for example, a medical handbook/reference) to get the meaning of a word in one context (jargon), let alone all of them.

Dictionaries are useful for understanding a text when there are words you've never heard of (in the context at hand). They are not ever something you can build an argument on. It's even worse than an 'appeal to Wikipedia'.