Psionic mindthrust

[FTG72]

So within the book (expanded Psionic's) i read it just says i insult the thought path ways of my enemies. BUT does it manifest anything which can show that in battle i'm actually doing something instead of standing behind everyone and like flexing my forehead.

[Venger]

So within the book (expanded Psionic's) i read it just says i insult the thought path ways of my enemies. BUT does it manifest anything which can show that in battle i'm actually doing something instead of standing behind everyone and like flexing my forehead.

I gather you're asking whether mind thrust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindThrust.htm) has a display.

The answer is yes, it's auditory. If you succeed on a concentration check, you can dispense with display if you want to, and no one knows you're doing anything.

[Forrestfire]

Mind thrust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindThrust.htm).


Display: Auditory

Outside of the Auditory display, there is no noticeable manifestation of the effect's, er, manifestation. Page 58 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook describes the default Auditory display, though at the DM's option, a player can customize how it sounds. You can suppress this display by making a DC 16 Concentration check as part of manifesting the power.

[torrasque666]

They'll hear it. It has an Auditory display (unless you suppress it) and auditory displays state the following:
A bass-pitched hum issues from the manifester’s vicinity or in the vicinity of the power’s subject (manifester’s choice), eerily akin to many deep-pitched voices. The sound grows in a second from hardly noticeable to as loud as a shout strident enough to be heard within 100 feet. At the manifester’s option, the instantaneous sound can be so soft that it can be heard only within 15 feet with a successful DC 10 Listen check. Some powers describe unique auditory displays.

[Zaq]

Also, even if you suppress the display, you'll still be visibly distracted, so much so that your opponents will take an AoO on you unless you succeed at a Concentration check to manifest defensively.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Also, even if you suppress the display, you'll still be visibly distracted, so much so that your opponents will take an AoO on you unless you succeed at a Concentration check to manifest defensively.
The DC for both is the same, as well, so if you auto-succeed one, you auto-succeed the other (barring abilities that interfere with defensive manifesting). Manifesters like Concentration even better than casters!

[Calthropstu]

The DC for both is the same, as well, so if you auto-succeed one, you auto-succeed the other (barring abilities that interfere with defensive manifesting). Manifesters like Concentration even better than casters!

So glad PF got rid of that.

[Raendyn]

Wasn't it that anyone looking at you can discern you are casting/manifesting even stilled/sillent/eMats ?

Was like "the looks of intense concentration" give you up? The same way you provoke AoOs.

Considering that in all settings even commoners are familiar with ppl casting all the time around them, then most will know you are doing it.

There's a skill trick that allows your casting to go unnoticed though.

[Venger]

Wasn't it that anyone looking at you can discern you are casting/manifesting even stilled/sillent/eMats ?

Was like "the looks of intense concentration" give you up? The same way you provoke AoOs.

Considering that in all settings even commoners are familiar with ppl casting all the time around them, then most will know you are doing it.

There's a skill trick that allows your casting to go unnoticed though.

You cannot know someone is manifesting a power if they dispense with display successfully.

They will still get an aoo against you, but they won't know it's because you're manifesting a power.

If they have incarnate running, they'll see it.

[Zaq]

You cannot know someone is manifesting a power if they dispense with display successfully.

They will still get an aoo against you, but they won't know it's because you're manifesting a power.

If they have incarnate running, they'll see it.

That can get weird pretty quickly, though. The metagame thinking seems less and less meta if you've got characters (PC or NPC) who've survived several levels of combat. AoOs don't just happen. It's unclear whether characters are "intended" to know the difference between an attack they make on their own turn and an attack they make on someone else's turn, but given that characters can and usually should take active measures themselves to prevent from eating AoOs when the shoe is on the other foot, I feel like you have to squint pretty darn hard for a battle-seasoned character to have no concept of the difference between swinging normally and taking advantage of an opening.

So once you've got someone who knows that they just made an AoO, and they have enough practical experience to know that AoOs don't just happen for no reason, why is it unreasonable for a character with reasonable INT to then start looking for a reason why the guy next to them just dropped his guard, even if there aren't any displays to suppress? If there's a detectable effect of the manifestation, of course (an Astral Construct appearing, for example, or the "hostile force" you notice when you succeed on a Will save against a mental effect, or whatever), we'd allow an appropriate Psicraft/Spellcraft check, but even in the absence of such a successful check, I don't feel like it's strange for a veteran of D&D-universe fights to recognize "hmm, I just had an unusual opening to swing at this guy—he's probably doing something weird, and there's a good chance that some kind of magic is involved," even if we don't go as far as "this enemy is a Psion who just attempted to Mind Thrust my friend!"

I don't want to straw man you, of course. "Cannot know someone is manifesting a power" is different from "has no idea why this AoO happened." But even if we leave the specifics to characters trained in the relevant -craft skills, at what point do we say that simple pattern recognition comes into play?

[SangoProduction]

AoOs don't "just happen" because it's an approximation of actual combat. You don't sit still in a 5 ft square, and wait for your turn to attack. You guys are clashing swords, dodging blows, moving around. This is why a 5ft step is a free action. It's just the natural flow of combat. It's also why AoOs don't happen outside of combat.

An AoO is an approximation of someone being less able to defend themselves, and are more prone to attack. So you could tell that they are off their game. Or something the similar. But unless you're assuming everyone who charges through your spiked chain's AoC (provoking AoOs along the way), is also manifesting, there's not much of a way to tell that something's been cast, unless there's some sort of effect.

[Venger]

That can get weird pretty quickly, though. The metagame thinking seems less and less meta if you've got characters (PC or NPC) who've survived several levels of combat. AoOs don't just happen. It's unclear whether characters are "intended" to know the difference between an attack they make on their own turn and an attack they make on someone else's turn, but given that characters can and usually should take active measures themselves to prevent from eating AoOs when the shoe is on the other foot, I feel like you have to squint pretty darn hard for a battle-seasoned character to have no concept of the difference between swinging normally and taking advantage of an opening.
Right. Nowhere did I say "aoos just happen."

There are dozens of different things within the game that provoke aoos. Many of them are not visible to the naked eye and some don't have a clear visual indicator. If someone in my reach does something that provokes aoos, I don't instantly know what he's doing, just that I get to take a swing at him.

You absolutely know when you're attacking on your turn vs not your turn, due to how you have a finite amount of aoos allocated per round.


So once you've got someone who knows that they just made an AoO, and they have enough practical experience to know that AoOs don't just happen for no reason, why is it unreasonable for a character with reasonable INT to then start looking for a reason why the guy next to them just dropped his guard, even if there aren't any displays to suppress? If there's a detectable effect of the manifestation, of course (an Astral Construct appearing, for example, or the "hostile force" you notice when you succeed on a Will save against a mental effect, or whatever), we'd allow an appropriate Psicraft/Spellcraft check, but even in the absence of such a successful check, I don't feel like it's strange for a veteran of D&D-universe fights to recognize "hmm, I just had an unusual opening to swing at this guy—he's probably doing something weird, and there's a good chance that some kind of magic is involved," even if we don't go as far as "this enemy is a Psion who just attempted to Mind Thrust my friend!"
Again, I didn't say your character can't make an educated guess about why he just got an aoo. For powers with a physical manifestation like energy ray, there's a logical connection, but with something like a clairsentience power, you wouldn't necessarily be able to point to something without ranks in psicraft.


I don't want to straw man you, of course. "Cannot know someone is manifesting a power" is different from "has no idea why this AoO happened." But even if we leave the specifics to characters trained in the relevant -craft skills, at what point do we say that simple pattern recognition comes into play?
Right. And I said the former, and not the latter. It'd come into play when there are rules for it, like with everything else. the rules here are pretty clear. that's what dispensing with display is for. If you allow people to see what you're manifesting anyway, you might as well eliminate the mechanic.

[Zaq]

I don't think we fundamentally disagree. I reread my post, and it was definitely a bit more confrontational than I intended, for which I apologize.

I was mostly trying to go down an interesting rabbit hole rather than trying to really contradict or argue against anything that you were saying, but I don't seem to have actually SAID that, which is on me. I was diving off on a tangent, but I was talking as though I was directly against your simple and factual statement. Sorry about that, Venger.

[Psyren]

Wasn't it that anyone looking at you can discern you are casting/manifesting even stilled/sillent/eMats ?

Was like "the looks of intense concentration" give you up? The same way you provoke AoOs.

Considering that in all settings even commoners are familiar with ppl casting all the time around them, then most will know you are doing it.

There's a skill trick that allows your casting to go unnoticed though.

Your eyes glaze over while you manifest, but if you suppressed your displays your enemy won't know why. They can still kick you in the nuts/purse though while you're unfocused.

[Venger]

I don't think we fundamentally disagree. I reread my post, and it was definitely a bit more confrontational than I intended, for which I apologize.

I was mostly trying to go down an interesting rabbit hole rather than trying to really contradict or argue against anything that you were saying, but I don't seem to have actually SAID that, which is on me. I was diving off on a tangent, but I was talking as though I was directly against your simple and factual statement. Sorry about that, Venger.
that's cool, it happens

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't want to straw man you, of course. "Cannot know someone is manifesting a power" is different from "has no idea why this AoO happened." But even if we leave the specifics to characters trained in the relevant -craft skills, at what point do we say that simple pattern recognition comes into play?
I think that's a reasonable assumption to make. If you know that psionics are a thing, and that they don't always have a display, and the guy you're fighting keeps leaving openings right before things explode, you'll get suspicious. Heck, if you've got a guy standing around on the battlefield not making obvious/serious weapon attacks, you'll probably assume they're a spellcaster whether or not they're provoking AoOs. You can't tell for sure, but nothing stops you from making a guess.

Hiding a display is more useful if you're hiding, or in a social situation or something. The Psion in my last game spent an entire fight hiding in a bush. The enemies knew that someone was casting at them, but they couldn't find him specifically.

[Zordran]

Heck, if you've got a guy standing around on the battlefield not making obvious/serious weapon attacks, you'll probably assume they're a spellcaster whether or not they're provoking AoOs. You can't tell for sure, but nothing stops you from making a guess.


Idea for a cohort who's just a guy with ridiculous defenses making bluff checks to look like he's manifesting powers.

[Psyren]

Idea for a cohort who's just a guy with ridiculous defenses making bluff checks to look like he's manifesting powers.

But when no magic/psionics actually happens, the attacker is just going to think they are successfully disrupting the guy and keep attacking. I mean, I guess you could tie up one of their melee that way, but either way you're down a caster.

[Telok]

Idea for a cohort who's just a guy with ridiculous defenses making bluff checks to look like he's manifesting powers.

Cute idea. You can probably also fake the manifestation displays with cantrips too, if you wanted to add more confusion.