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SadisticFishing
2007-08-15, 01:00 AM
Alright, well, for many reasons, including roleplaying ones and the fact that kobolds are awesome, I want to play a Kobold Wizard. Not sorceror, wizard.

I have no idea what prestige class I want to go, or whether or not I want to specialize, and whether or not I want to be Dragonwrought. Help me decide.

Alright, well, if I go Dragonwrought Kobold, I can take Dragon Wings, Improved Dragon Wings, and Flyby Attack. While probably not worth it from an optimizing standpoint, contrary to popular beliefs wizards can't stay afloat all day, and winged kobolds are just cool. I could just take Dragonwrought, and then Alter Self and such into dragons, but I don't see that big a deal there - am I missing something?

If I don't take Dragonwrought, I'm taking Collegiate Wizard. The reason my character chose Wizard over Sorceror is that he loves knowledge, so it would make sense, AND be powerful from the ever-so-present optimizing standpoint.

Now, specializing - I wrote down the spells I'm planning on learning, and the only school I don't plan on touching (except maybe a force thing or two) is Evocation. Is it worth specializing in Divination, or should I just give up another school as well? If so, in your opinion, which?

Now, for actual builds, I was planning on doing one of the following:

Wizard 7/Loremaster 10/Archmage 3 - very cool, but not nearly as powerful as I could be, as I have to use all my feats to qualify for prestige classes, can't even pick up collegiate wizard...

Wizard 15/Archmage 5 - cool because it's very simple, some free feats, and I can take a familiar without feeling all that stupid. Can even go Flyby Attack, although it's not as strong as I thought because you can't turn around in midair with average maneuverability.

Wizard 4/Sorceror 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Something 5 (wizard or archmage), this build could easily be the Dragonwrought one, taking Sorceror as my third level and Practised Spellcaster so I get more wizard levels from UM.

Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 5/Wizard +2 (5) - this would be Collegiate Wizard, Spell Focus (Transmutation or Conjuration), then more feats.

EDIT: I forgot Wyrm Wizard. Wizard 6/Wyrm Wizard 10/Archmage 4. Loses 3 caster levels though.

More prestige classes: Incantatrix and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil are out of the question, because of personal preference. Very strong, but I'm not in the mood for being THAT overpowered.

Point out any other cool builds you can think of. Thanks!

-Me

**Note: Don't think TOOOO hard, as I need this by tomorrow at 2ish. Thanks :P <3

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 01:03 AM
Divination is good with the Spell Compendium as a resource.

Consider taking some of those empty wizard levels in the Master Specialist PRC particularly if you prorate fractionals.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-15, 01:04 AM
Consider taking some of those empty wizard levels in the Master Specialist PRC.

You need to specialize for that

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 01:05 AM
I know but you were the one who mentioned the possiblity of specializing as a Diviner.

Diviner is viable with the Spell Compendium and giving up Evocation spells as you suggested in the OP although normally you would give up Necromancy as a straight wizard and probably lose Enchantment with a Beguiler Ultimate Magus build.

I'd suggest going Beguiler - 1 for the skill points for Ultimate Magus and fueling meta spells along with having a lot of spells for spontaneous casting some of pretty good utility it would work good with a Specialist Conjurer or Diviner and knows a lot more spells than a Sorcerer.

excrtd
2007-08-15, 01:06 AM
If I am remembering correctly dragonwrought removes the penalties for aging so you can be venerable for +3 to all mental stats with no loss of physical stats and you get all the other benefits that you outlined.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-15, 01:07 AM
If I am remembering correctly dragonwrought removes the penalties for aging so you can be venerable for +3 to all mental stats with no loss of physical stats and you get all the other benefits that you outlined.

Very good point, except that I need to be young, again for story purposes. Thanks though, that makes the feat far better o_O

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-15, 01:07 AM
I think Mage of the Arcane Order, for knowledge types, is a pretty good class. 6 levels is all you really need, as the number of levels of spells you can pull out of the spell pool is dependent on caster level, not class level. You don't even need to take that many levels in it. I recommend up to 6th, and certainly not to 10, as its capstone ability is lame.

Not as powerful as some of your options here, but fun none-the-less.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-15, 01:09 AM
I'd need to join the Arcane Order though, and no one likes a kobold.

I also plan to have the character spend most of his time with his group, us kobolds aren't so trusting.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 01:11 AM
The Guild Mage of Waterdeep is very similar to the MotAO and you could tweak either PRC to your campaign.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 01:13 AM
Instead of Loremaster the Court Herald PRC from Power of Faerun could work.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-15, 01:14 AM
Wow this list of random things I forgot to mention is growing - I don't have access to any Eberron or Faerun books except the Races.

Jack Mann
2007-08-15, 01:18 AM
Remember the first rule of wizard prestige classes: Thou shalt not lose caster levels. If you have to lose caster progression in wizard, it probably isn't worth it. There are very few exceptions, and generally involve the loss of no more than one level, or else are part of a build that doesn't focus on casting, like a gish. If your goal is to be the party caster, then concentrate on continuing your casting.

Master diviner is a pretty good choice. You give up very little when you bar evocation, and most of the spells you're giving up can be replicated with shadow spells. And the master specialist prestige class segues very nicely into archmage.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 01:19 AM
Play a Conjurer Specialist.

Take the Summoner Domain as an arcane domain with a feat.

It will give you that bonus domain spell at each level based on Wisdom. The bonus spells are all Summon Monster except Lesser Planar Ally (4th), Planar Ally (6th), Greater Planar Ally (8th) and Gate (9th).

Take 5 levels in Thaumaturgist (Your Summoner Domain allows you to qualify).

Beguiler - 1, Conj - 3, MS- 1, UM -10, Thaum - 5 this will allow your PC to Quicken some level 5 and below spells on either side of the build without burning up high level spell slots.

excrtd
2007-08-15, 01:23 AM
Well let me see what else I can remember about stuff. A specialization in divination might be less valuable if that complete champion spontanious divination alternative class feature is available. However since I do not own complete champion I can not tell you the specifics of the alternative. Additionally if you do not want to specialize the domain wizard is a possible substitute.

Desyth
2007-08-15, 01:24 AM
I'd personally go with an Abjuration Specialist with a progression of:
Abjurer 3/MS 7 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 / (x1/x2)

x1 would be finishing up Master Specialist
x2 is going with Archmage

I'm not sure if you can get into Iot7FV at 10, I'm AFB atm. Either way, the feat synergy between the MS and the Veil is insanely awesome.

The build I'm currently working on for an Elf Wizzy is a Diviner Spec.

I'm looking at Diviner 6 / Fatespinner 4 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 / Archmage 1 (Arcane Reach) / whatever

The game probably won't even see the end of the Veil class, so I'm not worried about a cap.

I've banned Evocation for the Diviner, and Evocation and Necromancy for the Abjurer (RP reasons).

From my point of view since quite a few spells are based on prismatic effects, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for your know-it-all wizard to seek that out as part of the underlying current of Magic.

As for Collegiate Wizard, that feat RULES. However, if you can squeeze in two levels of Geometer or get a Boccob's Blessed Book you'll have sorta the same thing. If you can take flaws, go for the Collegiate Wizard, otherwise, you can get something similar without too much of a point sink.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-15, 01:24 AM
See, as an arcane caster with my amazing geniusness... Or, that is, with the amount of time on my hands, I am going to probably carry the party anyways. Losing 3 levels to Wyrm Wizard wouldn't be that bad at all.

Diviniation Specialist makes sense and could be in character, but are there that many divination spells worth their salt?

To Summoning Specialist - if I wanted to summon a lot of stuff, I'd be a druid. On top of that, we have a Marshal/Warchief with Leadership, so it would be rather abusive to summon even more things to the table - not to mention the turn slowdown.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 01:27 AM
See, as an arcane caster with my amazing geniusness... Or, that is, with the amount of time on my hands, I am going to probably carry the party anyways. Losing 3 levels to Wyrm Wizard wouldn't be that bad at all.

Diviniation Specialist makes sense and could be in character, but are there that many divination spells worth their salt?

To Conjuring Specialist - if I wanted to summon a lot of stuff, I'd be a druid. On top of that, we have a Marshal/Warchief with Leadership, so it would be rather abusive to summon even more things to the table - not to mention the turn slowdown.

Divination is viable with the Spell Compendium and less so without it.

You should probably edit your original post regarding things like Conjurer or Diviner Specialist as an option.

Wiz - 3, MS - 10, ACM - 5 and Loremaster - 2 works.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-15, 01:28 AM
I have the Compendium, got it two days ago, so I'm looking forward to finally playing a wizard :)

Oh, I have nothing against specializing in Conjuration, just in specializing in summoning. I'll go edit that last post >.>

Desyth
2007-08-15, 01:30 AM
Well let me see what else I can remember about stuff. A specialization in divination might be less valuable if that complete champion spontanious divination alternative class feature is available. However since I do not own complete champion I can not tell you the specifics of the alternative. Additionally if you do not want to specialize the domain wizard is a possible substitute.

Doesn't that class feature give like, +10 to the first save or something? Maybe I'm losing my mind...

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 01:33 AM
I have the Compendium, got it two days ago, so I'm looking forward to finally playing a wizard :)

Oh, I have nothing against specializing in Conjuration, just in specializing in summoning. I'll go edit that last post >.>

Okay. The reason I posted Thaumaturgist is because it is normally for clerics and it is better than Wiz - 15, ACM - 5 and Specialist wizards like Conjurers were an option originally.

Wiz - 3, MS- 10 (or 7), ACM - 2 (or 5), Thaumaturgist - 5.

Taking the Summoner Domain gets you a bonus domain spell at every level and qualifies your PC for Thaumaturgist by knowing Lesser Planar Ally. Your PC doesn't need to be a Conjurer Specialist.

Thaumaturgist gives your PC Improved Ally, Augment Summoning, Extended Summoning, Contingent Conjuration and Planar Cohort for Specials which is better than straight wizard levels normally particularly with a Conjurer Specialist build.

sophosbarbaros
2007-08-15, 01:34 AM
I like the diviner loremaster option, I will admit thought that this comes mostly from my love of the loremaster PrC.

While evocation has its place, I like to play casters who specialize in Divination/Abjuration/Illusion, and depending on how your party trusts each other (or you them) lots of the 4-7 level spells in those schools are quite handy outside a simple combat exercise as well

I can look back through some of my characters spell lists if you are interested in some spells that I personally thought worked well using diviner's or illusionists

kjones
2007-08-15, 01:36 AM
I'd personally go with an Abjuration Specialist with a progression of:
Abjurer 3/MS 7 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 / (x1/x2)

x1 would be finishing up Master Specialist
x2 is going with Archmage

I'm not sure if you can get into Iot7FV at 10, I'm AFB atm. Either way, the feat synergy between the MS and the Veil is insanely awesome.

The build I'm currently working on for an Elf Wizzy is a Diviner Spec.

I'm looking at Diviner 6 / Fatespinner 4 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 / Archmage 1 (Arcane Reach) / whatever

The game probably won't even see the end of the Veil class, so I'm not worried about a cap.

I've banned Evocation for the Diviner, and Evocation and Necromancy for the Abjurer (RP reasons).

From my point of view since quite a few spells are based on prismatic effects, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for your know-it-all wizard to seek that out as part of the underlying current of Magic.

As for Collegiate Wizard, that feat RULES. However, if you can squeeze in two levels of Geometer or get a Boccob's Blessed Book you'll have sorta the same thing. If you can take flaws, go for the Collegiate Wizard, otherwise, you can get something similar without too much of a point sink.

IIRC, the skill requirements for IOTSV involve 12 ranks in some skills, so that means Level 9 at least...

SadisticFishing
2007-08-15, 01:36 AM
Now, I love the idea of illusions, as I am going to be putting points in Craft (Trapmaking), cuz I'm a freakin' kobold, and I can lure people into it with illusion - but it's not worth specializing in, to me.

You know, digging up some cool divination spells might be useful!

Inyssius Tor
2007-08-15, 01:38 AM
A specialization in divination might be less valuable if that complete champion spontanious divination alternative class feature is available. However since I do not own complete champion I can not tell you the specifics of the alternative.

Er, it certainly would be less valuable if you take any levels in ultimate magus (with that alternate class feature, a straight wizard can qualify, and receives the benefits from both "+1 level of existing prepared spellcasting class" and "+1 level of existing spontaneous spellcasting class".

On topic... I don't know much, but it seems like Dragon Wings would be a cool but unnecessary use of a feat that could be spent on something else (but you already thought that, most likely).

SadisticFishing
2007-08-15, 01:39 AM
On topic... I don't know much, but it seems like Dragon Wings would be a cool but unnecessary use of a feat that could be spent on something else (but you already thought that, most likely).

A winged, red tinged kobold would look awesome. But, yeah, it would be a bit weak.

excrtd
2007-08-15, 01:50 AM
Er, it certainly would be less valuable if you take any levels in ultimate magus (with that alternate class feature, a straight wizard can qualify, and receives the benefits from both "+1 level of existing prepared spellcasting class" and "+1 level of existing spontaneous spellcasting class".

Well yes that build does exist however if he is not taking Incantatrix or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil because they are more powerful then is desirable I do not think that casting as a level 22 wizard at level 15 would even be considered.

To clarify my original post if you can give up spell slots to cast divination spells spontaneously a divination specialization will probably be redundant, unless you are going for master specialist in divination or something else that requires being a divination specialist.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-15, 03:21 AM
I like the idea of a kobold wizard / beguiler / ultimate magus. You get trapfinding (very kobold) and lots of spells. Get a few feats that allow you to burn spell slots for other advantages and you're good to go.

Wraithy
2007-08-15, 03:45 AM
I reccomend you hide your wizardicalness in front of other kobolds, they will stab you... repeatedly

Koji
2007-08-15, 04:11 AM
One of the dragonwrought feats gives you a natural attack (dragon tail?), which will make it way easier to administer touch spells, and will serve you far better than a pair of wings which you can just replicate with spells or items later anyway.

Your dexterity is very high, consider specializing in ray and ranged touch type spells. Weapon finesse (for regular touch attacks with your natural attack), and point-blank shot will all help you. High dexterity also means good reflex, high AC, and good ranged bonuses.

Complete Scoundrel has a class that focuses on being a sniper with ray attacks. I don't know if it's any good, but it might have the kind of flavor you want. Arcane Trickster would be good for a kobold if you weren't set on being a full on caster.

One option is to specialize in illusion, then become a loremaster ASAP. Loremasters get Use Magic Device, which allows you to use scrolls and wands of spells from your barred schools. Sure, you can't have metamagic with those, but if you bar the right schools, you're fine anyway. Going that route, you can confuse and misdirect your foes while you rain on them with rays and ranged touch spells.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 04:58 AM
Beguiler -1, Wiz - 3, MS - 1, UM - 10, Abjurant Champion - 5.

Under original spell research rules research an Abjuration school Mage Armor spell.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 04:59 AM
Beguiler -1, Wiz - 3, MS - 1, UM - 10, Abjurant Champion - 5.

sophosbarbaros
2007-08-15, 08:33 AM
I ran through some lists this morning and compiled a few 2-5 level div/ill/abj spells that I thought were fun and helpful to a loremaster diviner type


Detect Thoughts 2 Div PHB
Locate Object 2 Div PHB
Misdirection 2 Illus PHB
Obscure Object 2 Abj PHB

Invisibility Sphere 3 Illus PHB
Nondetection 3 Abj PHB
Tongues 3 Div PHB

Scrying 4 Div PHB
Dectect Scrying 4 Div PHB
Assay Resistance 4 Div CAr

Prying Eyes 5 Div PHB
Rary’s Telepathic Bond 5 Div PHB
Reciprical Gyre 5 Abj CAr
Refusal 5 Abj CAr

Of course I think every wiz should have the Spectral Hand (2 Necro PHB) and Touch of Idiocy (2 Ench PHB) combination and True Strike (1? Div) makes this pretty spell slot intensive at lower levels but a pretty effective anti caster opener in an encounter

I like to Take the Sudden Maximize and Sudden Silent and Still feats as well though whether it is better to take all the regular meta magic feats before their respective suddens has been a bit of a debate around our tables

Ikkitosen
2007-08-15, 08:36 AM
Add in Listening Lorecall if you take some listen ranks.

yango
2007-08-15, 08:39 AM
Ultimate Magus works well with a kobold, since Greater Rite of Draconic Passage lets you cast as a Wizard 18/Sorcerer 10 instead of Wizard 17/Sorcerer 10 for other races.