Create an epic character for campaign end battle vs demons

[Hiro Quester]

We are getting to the big battle at the end of our campaign. There is a strong likelihood that PCs could die. And there may not be time for others to resurrect them mid-battle.

So DM has asked us to develop a backup character, just in case.

Currently playing a 21 level Druid/ Lion of Talisid/ Holt Warden with one-level monk dip (DM nerfed wild shape duration and times per day to gain back lost level of Druid casting). So role is frontline damage, BFC (esp via summoning) and backup healer/buffer.

I generally like Gish types, who cast from the front lines of a fight, and have lots of options out of melee.

If you could create a level 21 character you would play for 3-4 sessions at the end of a 2-year (IRL) campaign, going into battle on a plane of the abyss fighting a lot of demons and undead, what would you play?

We started in Greyhawk with core books plus DMG2 and PH2 and Stormwrack. Have expanded to other books on a case-by-case basis.

But probably no ToB, Faerun, Ebberon, psionics, soulmelds or other mechanics the DM is unfamiliar with.

Pathfinder items occasionally find their way into our game, though.

Rest of Party is cleric and wizard (both neutral but with evil/necromantic leanings), blaster sorcerer/incantatrix and arcane archer (chaotic neutral/good), knight (LG with stick firmly implanted in butt) and me (neutral good).

[Eldariel]

On level 20, you could just cut loose as any big caster. Honestly, depending on the optimization level (which seems to be all over the place), you could do whatever. Cleric or Wizard 20 can Gish just fine, to say nothing of any of the bazillion PRC comboes available that high. Divine Power gives anyone full BAB and you can already persist it the old-fashioned way by just using a 10th level slot for it (taking Improved Spell Capacity on 21).

Perhaps the Do It All:
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Epic Unseen Seer ->

With Arcane Disciple: Competition or War you could Divine Power and then you have Hunter's Eye [Player's Handbook II], Divine Insight [Spell Compendium], Choose Destiny [Races of Destiny] from Unseen Seer (take the last 3 levels as 18-19-20 to Advanced Learning Choose Destiny). Instead of Spellwarp Sniper (more "fun" than "powerful", though no-save CC from Rayifying Ref-or-X effects is useful if quite easily counterable) you also use Incantatrix or Spelldancer to persist stuff like Choose Destiny. It's an amazing spell that allows rolling twice for each die roll you make and taking the better one, absolutely delicious when persisted but useful without.

[Hiro Quester]

I was originally thinking of a swiftblade, which has always seemed like it would be fun to play.

But the unseen seer/spellwarp sniper has an appeal to it. We already have a blasty sorcerer incantatrix, though. That role might be filled.

Does having reduced CL on non-divination spells from unseen seer suck some of the oomph out of your ability to deal damage? Is there room in that build for the meta magic you'd need to damage effectively?

Also, a way of getting through spell resistance would seem to be a necessary part of a build like that. (At this level, everything has it.)

[zlefin]

I recommend spelling out the book list, as different people have different definitions of "core" books.

as to what to take, that depends alot on the desired power level and optimization level.

in terms of easy to create backup chars, I'd go Cleric 20; or cleric -> radiant servant of pelor. If the desired optimization level isn't that high, and you're facing a lot of undead, I'd consider doing a turning build for the funsies.

[Eldariel]

I was originally thinking of a swiftblade, which has always seemed like it would be fun to play.

But the unseen seer/spellwarp sniper has an appeal to it. We already have a blasty sorcerer incantatrix, though. That role might be filled.

Does having reduced CL on non-divination spells from unseen seer suck some of the oomph out of your ability to deal damage? Is there room in that build for the meta magic you'd need to damage effectively?

Also, a way of getting through spell resistance would seem to be a necessary part of a build like that. (At this level, everything has it.)

You can take Practiced Spellcaster to completely negate the CL loss plus the one lost caster level at 1. And yeah, you can make room for metamagic if you go down that route, but you'll have to focus on it rather exclusively in that case. Of course, the build can also just be gishing it out with melee or ranged (you do want Divine Power for full attacks though, but Arcane Disciple gives that to you no problem); Sneak Attack works even better while flanking, and if you attack from Blink and Hide outside target's True Seeing range you're more than golden. You can persist stuff like Guided Shot, Sniper's Shot, Golem Strike [Spell Compendium] and company (1st level spells so to persist, takes 7th level slots) to negate the normal limitations of Sneak Attack (Vine Strike and Gravestrike can further be Wanded for whenever you face Plants and Undead). But gishing wouldn't really make use of Spellwarp Sniper's abilities so taking e.g. Arcane Trickster or Incantatrix over it would be preferable if going this route.

Spell resistance isn't really a problem; 4th level has "Assay Resistance" [Spell Compendium], lowers target's SR by 10 for rounds/level essentially making it a non-issue. But yeah, going the primarily martial route would also sidestep this - you can do a lot of fun stuff gishing out with full Wizard casting and some choice off-list spells on these levels. Telekinesis "Violent Thrust" from cover sneak attacking with each weapon for instance, or Cloud of Knives [PHBII] for bonus attacks, Arcane Strike for more bonuses, channel some spells with Smiting Spell [PHBII], etc.

[Hiro Quester]

Hmmm, I see what you mean about Unseen Seer in a persistomancer being quite awesome in terms of damage dealing. Persisted Hunter's Eye is very powerful, especially on top Unseen seer's CL bump for divination, Divine Power, and the sneak attack from Rogue and Unseen Seer.

Can practiced spellcaster raise your Cl for non-divination unseen seer spells, if the lower Cl is part of the class feature (the price you pay for better divination)?

[Eldariel]

It certainly can. All that matters is that your CL is under your HD. And of course, bonuses apply in the most beneficial order.

[Bronk]

We are getting to the big battle at the end of our campaign.

I generally like Gish types, who cast from the front lines of a fight, and have lots of options out of melee.

If you could create a level 21 character you would play for 3-4 sessions at the end of a 2-year (IRL) campaign, going into battle on a plane of the abyss fighting a lot of demons and undead, what would you play?

We started in Greyhawk with core books plus DMG2 and PH2 and Stormwrack. Have expanded to other books on a case-by-case basis.

But probably no ToB, Faerun, Ebberon, psionics, soulmelds or other mechanics the DM is unfamiliar with.


I'd say start with a straight cleric, or stick to prestige classes that advance turning, increase your Wisdom and Charisma scores to at least 25 each, and take the epic feat 'Planar Turning' at level 21.

Here are some items you'd want to try to get in order to boost your turning:

11000g Phylactery of Undead Turning (head slot item): +4 turning level
800g Ephod of Authority (MIC, torso slot item): +1 turning level
3000 Talisman of Undead Mastery (MIC, held item, 3 charges): up to +4 +4 turning level
9000 Scepter of the Netherworld (MIC, held item): +3 turning level (Described as a ‘plain steel baton’)
750g Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (item): +1 turning level (Eberron)
9000g Moonfriend ring: Turn undead as if three levels higher (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft)

You can boost your turning with feats, as well as by using nightsticks from Libris Mortis, if you can swing those.

If you're going for persists, you can try to get Divine Metamagic for that as well. Definitely can't hurt, and there are a number of spells like Owl's Insight or Nixie's Grace that can really boost your Wisdom and Charisma if cast with a persisted miracle.

[Anthrowhale]

A different approach to gish-with-options is Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Dweomerkeeper 2/Sacred exorcist 1/Dweomerkeeper 8/Loremaster 1/?? 3/Hierophant x

Archivist provides very broad spell access. It looks MAD but once Owl's Insight comes online it isn't.

Church Inquisitor + substitute domain provides easy entry into Dweomer Keeper

Dweomerkeeper makes 5 chosen spells spontaneous and allows you to cast 4 spells/day as supernatural which penetrates SR and strips all components. This makes Wish a routine-use combat spell.

Sacred Exorcist provides the ability to persist chosen spells.

Loremaster gives a nice bonus feat if you qualify via Frog God's Fane.

Hierophant in the epic levels has no downside because it fully advances caster level.

[Rebel7284]

Yeah, at that level you pretty much have unlimited options.

The things you are looking for are: Action economy abuse, access to Persistent buffs, good spell list.

Swiftblade works well enough. Something like:
Elf Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5/Spelldancer 1

Anything with Item Familiar and Incantatrix would work as well.

Ruby Knight Vindicators are excellent gishes with their own form of action economy abuse, and maneuvers, although sounds like it would be a hard sell for you due to the extra subsystem.

Shadowcraft Mage gets 100%+ real illusions and insane caster level.

The Beguiler/Rainbow Servant builds have access to all cleric spells spontaneously.

Ultimate Magus gives you free persists after one application of Practical Metamagic-> Persistent Spell.
Something like Bard 1/Wizard + PrCs 9/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 10.

Anything with Circle Magic is amazing.

One build I have seen around which is pretty out of the box is being a Wu-Jen, going into Archmage, and getting Body Outside of Body and Giant Size as SLAs. Why be one gish, when you can be a dozen? :) You can also, of course, pull this off with a Wizard taking Wu Jen spells with things like Recaster, Wurm Wizard, and Arcane Disciple[Hero Domain]

edit: SOME MORE
Get immunity to daze, get Arcane Thesis[Celerity]. Prepare some twinned repeating for lots of extra actions.

Arcane Archer 2 Dip on top of any good build to shoot antimagic fields at your enemies.

Telflamar Shadowlord makes for a very fun gish at later levels with its 3+ Full attacks per round.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Illumian (Naenhoon), Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8 pre-epic. At 21+ probably just take more Sacred Exorcist or dip Paragnostic Apostle for Mind Over Matter and/or Spatial Awareness.

Use Sacred Exorcist turning with Naenhoon for Persistent Draconic Polymorph: War Troll and Persistent Superior Invisibility. Use your normal spell slots for Persistent Wraithstrike, Shield, Magic Circle Against Evil, and various other buffs. Spend a feat on Arcane Preparation to be able to cast Greater Luminous Armor and other sacred spells, get a Rod of Bodily Restoration to fix the Str damage that occurs when that ends. Get an Eternal Wand of Hound of Doom, and give it a name. Take Practiced Spellcaster, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Extend Spell, and Persistent Spell.

[Hiro Quester]

I'm now considering trying to blend Swiftblade and Unseen Seer.

It seems easier on a wizard base (int-casting stat gets more skill points), but I like the sorcerer's ability to spam one spell repeatedly if needed, and more spells per day.

Something like Rogue1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer6/Swiftblade10/

Does that sound like a viable build?

EDIT: That won't work. Need 8 ranks in Spot, Search , Hide for Unseen Seer. These are cross class for Wizard.

So Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Swiftblade4/Unseen Seer4/Swiftblade +6/Epic Unseen Seer?

[Eldariel]

I'm now considering trying to blend Swiftblade and Unseen Seer.

It seems easier on a wizard base (int-casting stat gets more skill points), but I like the sorcerer's ability to spam one spell repeatedly if needed, and more spells per day.

Something like Rogue1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer6/Swiftblade10/

Does that sound like a viable build?

Missing out on Choose Destiny is kind of a bummer and you can't actually make up all the CL lost with Practiced Spellcaster anymore. If you ran Illumian, then that would let you catch up to the 6 missing CLs. But yeah, that'd be viable though Swiftblade 10 compared to a casting class is kinda up in the air; one gets you more 9th level slots, one gets you access to Ex Time Stop in lower level slots. Anything with 9th level spells is definitely viable though. If you plan on persisting stuff the oldfashioned way, lacking Spelldancer/Incantatrix hardly matters; those might be too strong for the campaign level anyways. But yeah, Swiftblade does lose out on the skills.

[Hiro Quester]

I'm going with Sorcerer6 /Swiftblade9 /Unseen Seer 5 /Epic Swiftblade 10

Taking the last level of Swiftblade at level 21 means I get the capstone class ability, and don't lose casting progression, because epic doesn't progress casting.

Getting the required cross-class skill points for Unseen Seer took some finagling. Unseen Seer's Advanced Learning for Hunter's Eye and Choose Destiny.

Also taking Arcane Disciple (of Tritherion): War Domain for Divine Power.

I only get to 8th level spells at level 20. But taking epic feat Improved Spell Capacity gives me a 9th level spell slot, though. And high Cha gives bonus 9th level spell slots.

I have a 9th level domain spell (Power Word Kill --meh), so qualify for Choose Destiny if I delay the choice of spell learned until Epic level. This is the only slightly questionable move in the build, not learning the second Advanced Learning spell until the next level-up. I can also use the slot for persisting 3rd level spells, or for Haste's 4-round time stop.

Thanks for the help, everyone. Especially Eladriel. Your suggestions were most helpful indeed for the specific build I needed.

Now I just have to get the DM to approve something this lethal and fun to play.