Demons as PCs?

[Ramos]

Playing monsters has become almost as common nowadays as playing the standard races. Making new monsters has always been common enough. Undead have always been templated and advance by class-making a tougher vampire or lich, one with more options or more interesting, is easy-just add class levels or evolved undead templates and the appropriate background. Dragons-another very popular type of monsters-are very easy to advance due to the very extensive writedown of advancement for all types of dragons in the SRD.
For every other monster, the only standard way of advancement is to simply add racial HD-just increasing its BAB, saves and Hit Points. Having a preference for outsiders and having both played them and made new outsiders, I find this lack of a good progression causes three problems.
The first problem is in monster advancement and CR. Advancing different outsiders to the same HD by simply adding more HD yelds creatures of very different capabilities. E.g. advancing a Succubus, a Glabrezu and a Marilith to 20 HD should yeld creatures of CR 20. This does not happen because outsiders of higher HD have higher caster level, spell resistance, natural armor, ability scores and powerful abilities and by increasing a lesser outsider by HD does not increase any of those. Even if you increase a succubus to 30 HD, it will still be outclassed by the 16 HD Marilith.
The second problem is when you want to play pure outsiders. Playing undead characters works-increasing class levels increases the character's strength linearly. Playing dragons also works-the level by level progression for all base dragons makes this possible. Playing outsiders doesn't work. Unlike dragons, just adding HD doesn't increase their racial abilities at all. Unlike undead, just adding class levels doesn't increase their natural abilities either-it just gives them new abilities that don't fit. Eventually, outsider SR, spell-like caster level and special abilities become useless in higher levels.
The third problem is when you want to make a new monster and assign abilities, SLAs, ability scores and CR. Making templates is simpler than new creatures balance-wise as you have much fewer things to compare. Making dragons, you can easily compare with a ready dragon of the exact same HD/target CR. Making outsiders isn't as easy because they are more complex than an undead template and you do not have a level-by-level reference like with dragons.

Thus, here is a progression for Demons as if they were a class. The progression was made by taking the Balor and spreading its ability score bonuses, spell-like ability levels, unique abilities, DR and other stats over the course of 20 "levels". Some abilities were spread unevenly to accomodate for other demons that have, say, wings or teleportation in low HD.



DEMON
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Refl|Will|NA|Stat|SLAs|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|+1|+4|+3|Slam, demon traits, DR 5/good

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|+2|+4|+3|Ability

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|+3|+4|+3|Wings, DR 5/cold iron or good

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|+4|+4|+3|Ability, Spell Resistance

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|+5|+4|+3|Teleportation, DR 10/cold iron or good

6th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|+6|+4|+3|Ability

7th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|+7|+4|+3|DR 10/cold iron and good

8th|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6|+8|+4|+3|Ability

9th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6|+9|+5|+3|

10th|
+10|
+7|
+7|
+7|+10|+5|+3|Ability

11th|
+11|
+7|
+7|
+7|+11|+5|+3|

12th|
+12|
+8|
+8|
+8|+12|+5|+3|Ability

13th|
+13|
+8|
+8|
+8|+13|+5|+3|DR 15/cold iron and good

14th|
+14|
+9|
+9|
+9|+14|+5|+3|Ability

15th|
+15|
+9|
+9|
+9|+15|+5|+3|

16th|
+16|
+10|
+10|
+10|+16|+5|+3|Ability

17th|
+17|
+10|
+10|
+10|+17|+5|+3|

18th|
+18|
+11|
+11|
+11|+18|+5|+3|Ability

19th|
+19|
+11|
+11|
+11|+19|+5|+3|

20th|
+20|
+12|
+12|
+12|+20|+5|+3|Ability[/table]

HD: d8. Demons get 8 skill points per HD and +8 to spot/listen. Demons get feats as humanoids do-one at first level and one every 3 levels thereafter. They get the standard ability increase every 4 levels as well.

BAB: Demon BAB is good-like the fighter's. Demons don't get iterative attacks with their many natural weapons in a full attack however, if a demon is using his primary attack or a manufactured weapon in a full attack, it gets iterative attacks normally.

Saves: Demons are very resilient, supernatural creatures. All their saves are good saves.

NA: A Demon's body is naturally resistant to attacks-some demons are covered in iron-hard scales, others have very thick skin or armor plates and in some their seemingly normal flesh deflects blows. They have a Natural Armor bonus equal to their HD.

Stat: Demons are spirits made flesh. They are stronger, faster, tougher and smarter than most mortal beings and the difference is more pronounced the more powerful the fiend in question is. At each level, a demon gets the indicated points which can be spent to increase its ability scores in a 1 to 1 basis. This increase counts as a racial bonus and the maximum bonus in any single ability is 16. Some demons are physically weaker than this, getting fewer points. Such demons have more special abilities. Others are physically stronger-but they get fewer abilities. For every six points a demon does not spend, it can get an extra ability and vice versa.

SLAs: While not wielding true spells most of the time, demons have innate spell-like abilities that closely resemble them. At each level, a demon gets 3 points it can spend to get at-will spell-like abilities. Each spell level an SLA is costs 1 point, to a minimum of 1. E.g. detect magic would cost 1 point whiloe greater dispel magic costs 6 points. Demons can keep unspent points to spend them later. To keep the balance chosen SLAs should be limited to the PHB or, more strictly, to SLAs that already appear in SRD outsiders. Under no circumstances will a demon have an at-will SLA that fully replicates other spells (such as limited wish) or that has a large XP cost (such as Gate). Rarely will demons have SLAs that benefit others and only the most powerful demons will have SLAs that heal wounds. The maximum spell level of an SLA is 1/2 the demon's HD -1.
At the DMs discretion, demons can choose metamagic SLAs such as a quickened fireball as a 7th level SLA. Such SLA choices might unbalance the game though.

Slam: The primary natural attack of a demon is a slam doing 1d6+str modifier lethal crushing damage. Alternatively, the demon might have a claw attack doing slashing damage. Demons may later gain additional natural attacks by selecting those special abilities.

Demon Traits: All demons are peternaturally resistant to the elements. They all have Electricity and Poison Immunity, Acid Cold and Fire resistance 10. As spirits, they don't need to drink, eat or sleep, they don't get tired and they don't age.

Damage Reduction: While they appear to be made of flesh, demons are incarnations of chaos and evil. They all have Damage Reduction that increases as they increase in power as shown at the table.

Wings: Demons of middling power and greater grow wings that enable them to fly at twice their land speed.

Spell Resistance: Demons are naturally resistant to hostile magics. Most have SR equal to 13+their HD.

Teleportation: Most demons of a certain power have the ability to teleport. This is a spell-like ability that functions as the Greater Teleport spell at a caster level equal to the demon's HD. The demon may only carry itself and a light load.

Abilities: Demons are evil and chaos incarnate. As beings of chaos, each manifests an array of unique abilities. Demons of the same basic type share some abilities but as a demon progresses in power, it develops new abilities, different from those of its peers. Such abilities can be very diverse.
Gross physical changes may give many additional natural attacks, an increase in size, extra pairs of hands or more exotic limbs such as a marilith's tail.
A demon might change its form and assume some qualities of another creature type such as ooze, undead or construct.
More subtle extraordinary abilities include fast healing, additional energy immunities, an increase in natural armor or an improvement of damage reduction with regeneration not being unheard of either. Offencive extraordinary abilities include poison, disease, paralysis touch or energy draining attacks.
Supernatural abilities may give fear aura, alternate form that enables a demon to hide in humanoid form, a breath weapon or more unique abilities such as a Balor's flaming aura or the ability to conjure a +1 vorpal sword, a succubus' kiss, a retriever's ray attacks or a Bebilith's plane shift.
Some demons have more spell-like abilities than usual while others have innate spellcasting ability.
Generally, if a demon of that HD has that ability then an advancing demon could take it. Some abilities may be stronger than others and require more than one ability slot to take-SLAs for example should be granted at a rate of 8 spell levels per ability and innate spellcasting at 4-5 caster levels per ability. Because some abilities are more useful in combat than others, the DM should limit the abilities available depending on the demon PCs type otherwise characters might become stronger than standard demons of their HD. The first ability a demon should take is telepathy 100 ft. As an example of abilities, the Balor has the following ten: Large Size, Summon Balor, Flaming Aura, Fire Immunity, Vorpal Sword, Entangling Whip, Telepathy 100 ft, Darkvision 60 ft, Death Throes, True Seeing.
Unless you want to increase the power level of the demon, do not add abilities that do not already exist in previously printed demons or at least outsiders. Under no circumstances should a demon have divine grace or another ability that adds its charisma or other ability bonus to saving throws or AC. Demons have too high ability scores for those abilities to be balanced.

Advancing a demon using the table:
Standard demons don't follow this table exactly. When you advance a demon using this table, count how many natural armor, slas, racial ability bonuses, abilities and DR it has. If it has fewer than indicated in the table for its increased HD, add until it reaches the indicated amount. If it has more than indicated, do not add until the amount indicated in the table is reached as the creature advances in HD.

Making a PC using the table:
Just as with a normal PC, roll ability scores or assign point-buy before adding the racial bonuses indicated in the table. Feats, skills and ability increases are also assigned normally. All standard demons are made using base abilities of 10 or 11. Rolling stats as normal for PCs and allowing PCs to choose their feats/abilities/SLAs results in creatures that stronger from standard demons as normal PCs are stronger than NPCs. Demon PCs are designed to be used like monsters-WITHOUT ITEMS. The bonuses from items are replaced by the ability bonuses, natural armor and unique abilities of the demon itself. An itemless Balor PC is on par with a fairly optimised 20th level caster. Unlike standard PCs, demon PCs will all be fairly equal regardless of what role they play in the party-fighter oriented demons can be just as strong as spellcasting oriented ones. Finally, demon PCs are designed as pure monsters, usually not taking class levels. Due to their very high ability scores, demons that take class levels get access to too powerful optimisation combinations. A DM should not allow class levels unless he/she is confident he/she can challenge a party of optimised characters much stronger than their HD.

[Koji]

I like the idea of generic demons because it speaks much more to their chaotic nature to have a much larger variety of demons than the current caste system.

That said, it'd be nice to see a similar monster class for caster-type demons.

[StickMan]

Its by far to powerful to use. I hate making a general statement like that but I don't even know were to start with it because its just too powerful. I like the idea I've been thinking of doing something similar with dragons for a gestalt game, would have dragon class on one side and then something else often sorcerror on the other side.

If you ran a first level member of this class against a group of four 3 level charters I think there is a good shot its going to be a TPK a group of 1 levels are just going to die that is all there is to it.

[Xuincherguixe]

Not a bad idea, but I suspect it may need a bit of play testing.

[torrent]

I like the idea of having pc demonds but its just way to powerful to use i think it could work if you toned it down quite a bit.

[D Knight]

your idea looks great and might need to be tested befor used fully.also what is the manueravibltie of the wing? i would suggest average to maybe good then count in size for add effect. also it might be to dip worthy 4 or 5 levels and u gain nat. armor, wings, dammage reduction, and spell restiance. so i would say put more space between them but keep up the good work

[Ramos]

This is supposed to be a monster "class"-a spread by level of a Balor's power just like the various dragon progressions, not a base class to be usable along with other classes. That being said, if you keep to the strict guidelines presented (no items, SLAs that only demons have, abilities that only demons of that level have and no multiclassing) it is not too powerful, just on the upper scale of PC power for each level-even at first level that magic items for PCs are not available. For example, let's try the level 1 PvP:

Demon PC, 30 point-buy:
STR: 16+4, DEX: 14, CON: 14, INT: 10, WIS: 10, CHA 12
HP: 10 (8 base + 2 con modifier, DR 5/cold iron)
Initiative: +6
AC: 13 (10+2 dex+1 natural)
Attack: slam 1d6+5, +6
Feat: improved initiative
SLAs: detect magic (only demon SLA available)
Saves: +4, +4, +2
Demon Traits

Human Fighter PC
STR: 16, DEX: 14, CON: 14, INT: 14, WIS: 10, CHA 8
HP: 12 (10 base + 2 con modifier)
Initiative: +6
AC: 19 (10 base+ 2 dex+6 armor+1 dodge)
Attack: greatsword 2d6+5, +5
Feats: Wf: greatsword, Improved Initiative, Dodge
Saves: +4, +2, +0

As you can see, a level 1 human fighter stands a good chance of killing the demon PC on his own. He has better HP, better armor and slightly less damage if we take DR into account.

For the sorceror PC, expeditious retreat and color spray or Magic Missile (depending on what spell is available). Make a DC 16 will save or fall unconcious-coup de grace follows. Or simply avoid the demon PC with a much higher speed and pelt him/her with magic missiles and/or arrows until it croaks.

The barbarian PC is like the fighter-only his rage allows him even more meele goodness and his higher HP help too.


In higher levels, the fighters, as always, lag behind but after level 8 a spellcaster with good items can match the itemless demon PC-as was expected.

[StickMan]

This is supposed to be a monster "class"-a spread by level of a Balor's power just like the various dragon progressions.


No you see this is not like the Dragon progressions in any way, the Dragon progressions have level adjustment levels as well as normal levels. Balors have such a high hit dice that wizards did not list there level adjustment as they most likely did not see anyone ever playing a Balor. If they did list the level adjustment then I think you would have a LA of at least 10 or more. As such you have crammed at least 30 levels worth of stuff in to a 20 level class.

[Ramos]

Aaah, WotC never thought anyone would play a Balor. Right. Shapechange/Draconic Polymorph. They get ALL of the Balor's abilities except for SLAs. In addition, they have their magic items and straight caster level 20 spellcasting. They are also buffed. Now, who would win-a shapechanged into Balor 20th level spellcaster with magic items or a Balor? I'd bet on the spellcaster.

The progression-without items-is on par with spellcasters at levels 8-15 and weaker at levels 16-20.


EDIT: the dragon progressions (with level adjustment) are underpowered compared to normal PCs of their supposed ECL including items. In addition, the bigger dragon you play, the weaker you'll be (gold dragons will be the weakest, black the strongest). Just compare their AC, saves, HP and, most important, offencive capabilities and available loot. Their offencive capabilities are crap. +23 attack at 1d8+12 with items by level 20 is really low-the fighter has +37 attack at 2d6+1d6+20 minimum with a greatsword and good items. They can't use weapons, boots, shields, armor, wands, staffs, potions and scrolls and many wondrous items (can't hold them as they don't have hands). Their SR is useless at that level and their caster level is no more than 8 at best.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

There's actually a D20 system revolving around this idea- it's called Infernum. Unfortunately it has it's own unique cosmology, somewhat closer to the classic Christian version of Hell (Fallen Angels cast out of Heaven are even a playable race- though every iliaster drinker in the pit, which includes all the demons, many mortals and even some Fallen Angels, are going to want them for lunch). Still, it's got nine different demon breeds as 30 level races, so you may want to give it a look over and see if there's anything worth plucking from it.