Gestalt Advice Wanted

[Kizara]

Alright, I'm going to be playing my first Gestalt character in a bit with my real life group.

I was looking for some build advice, given the following information:

I'm looking to play nothing too non-human, as the character needs to be human-like for the purposes of RP. I don't want to be say... dwarf, or thri-keen.

Stats look something like: 18,18,18,16,14,12. Arrange how you like. We generally play pretty higher-powered, and we just discovered this gestalt thing and want to try it.

The purpose of the character is to be a dominator. He is going to be non-good, and is going to be making a living kidnapping, torturing and controlling people.
I also generally like characters with good cha, str and int scores, in that order.

Some stipulations:
1) Charm magic is cheating IMO, and so I dont want a build centered around illusionist/enchantment magic. The point is to break people's wills so you can control them, not trick them into thinking you are their friend with fairy magic.
Not saying magic isn't useful, just that I don't want to use charm.

2) Keep the total LA under 8 or so, the campaign wont be starting at high levels.

3) Character is meant to largely work independantly, don't count on or concern yourself too much with the possible other PCs. Also, I will be having a large amount of wealth beyond average. 2 to 3 times more.

4) Use referances for your non-core sources, and don't use ToB, or the newest complete books (Cscoundrel and champion).

5) No paladin's of tyranny please, I'm so sick of playing paladins lately...

Please gives me some advice! :) I'm newb at gestalt.

[Reinboom]

Gestalt *

Could you be more precise on dominator? I could go a million ways with this.
I understand your avoidance of magic for this build, however, may I recommend other use of magic (notably, in minor ways) or even more specifically a prestige class that requires magic use to get in: The Mindbender.
To get into it, Any arcane caster that gets charm person (note: you don't have to use it) a few easy skill choices, and caster level 5.
if you take say, sorcerer 1/other class 4/mindbender 1 (at level 3 take practiced spellcaster to make your caster level 5 for mindbender), this will give you telepathy. I believe telepathy can be made to great effect in this. Also, minor magic - not for charm but for intimidation purposes - would be rather beneficial.
Then, for your other half, a dragon shaman (if you have the PHB 2) could also be applied rather well into what you want - especially to bring in the intimidation factor.

Depending how your DM works with multiclassing and favored classes:
sorcerer 1/rogue 4/mindbender 1/ prestige ? rogue ?
Dragon Shaman 8

Race: Human
or if your DM is lenient on multiclassing, may I recommend looking at the hellbred race in FC2 and 'tweaking' the flavor to be dominantly nongood?

How intimidating are you going for? Or dominating? Specifics help a bit with these. :smallsmile:

[Overlard]

Well if you don't want to use any magic for it, then I guess the interaction skills are the way to go (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive). Maybe with some physical abilities to back up threats, and a little bit of magic to screw people over.

The first recommendation that springs to mind is rogue. It gives you the skill points for the interaction, along with nice abilities for general use (who doesn't like evasion?) Sneak attack is always welcome too, and UMD is a godsend.

For the other half of the build, how about hexblade? I know they're notoriously average, but I think it would work well. Full BAB, D10 HD, a respectable selection of spells later on (you can avoid the charm type ones you don't want), a familiar that you can use as a spy or (if you go with Improved Familiar) a bruiser-type aid to intimidate people. The curse has a sucky DC, but will be useful every now and again. Plus, you get mettle, which will go along nicely with evasion - you'll never have to worry about secondary effects/half damage again! Plus you'll get Cha to most of your saves anyway. Now you also have full martial proficiency, so wielding a greatsword while power attacking (and probably sneak attacking) will cause a lot of damage. You won't have med or heavy armour proficiency though, but that would interfere with most of your class abilities anyway. Go with a mithral breastplate, and you won't suffer a huge amount for it anyway.

As far as your abilities go, I'd suggest:

Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 18

Your weak point is going to be your fort saves. Even mettle can't help you if you fail a save there. Hence the high Con, and it might even be worth blowing a feat on Great Fortitude.

If the fancy takes you later, getting into blackguard would be extremely easy, and the abilities there stack up quite nicely (more sneak attack, Cha to saves again, another spy/companion, more spells...)

As for race, human's always a good choice. It gives you a feat to burn. Half-elf is less useless than normal due to the skill bonuses it gives too. The small races don't seem to fit your concept, and elf won't give you much. Don't even touch half-orc, as it'll screw you over twice. Outside of PHB, there are dozens of choices, but you don't need stat boosts at all, and unless you want weird and whacky racial abilities, then there's not much you need.

[Kizara]

Gestalt *

Could you be more precise on dominator? I could go a million ways with this.
I understand your avoidance of magic for this build, however, may I recommend other use of magic (notably, in minor ways) or even more specifically a prestige class that requires magic use to get in: The Mindbender.
To get into it, Any arcane caster that gets charm person (note: you don't have to use it) a few easy skill choices, and caster level 5.
if you take say, sorcerer 1/other class 4/mindbender 1 (at level 3 take practiced spellcaster to make your caster level 5 for mindbender), this will give you telepathy. I believe telepathy can be made to great effect in this. Also, minor magic - not for charm but for intimidation purposes - would be rather beneficial.
Then, for your other half, a dragon shaman (if you have the PHB 2) could also be applied rather well into what you want - especially to bring in the intimidation factor.

Depending how your DM works with multiclassing and favored classes:
sorcerer 1/rogue 4/mindbender 1/ prestige ? rogue ?
Dragon Shaman 8

Race: Human
or if your DM is lenient on multiclassing, may I recommend looking at the hellbred race in FC2 and 'tweaking' the flavor to be dominantly nongood?

How intimidating are you going for? Or dominating? Specifics help a bit with these. :smallsmile:

For one thing, I never said I didn't want to use any magic, I said I didn't want to charm people. Using magic for other purposes, say, damage, is not an issue. Magic can also create a great many interesting and useful non-combat effects for the purposes I'm intending.

"Could you be more precise on dominator?"
It is difficult to do so and not violate forum rules. But needless to say... my group is mature and I can be quite dark in my tastes. Think... kinky, for starters.
Telepathy is a fantastic tool, and mindbender occured to me as well. Why dragon shaman though? That seems kinda out to left field. I have the PHB2 but its still a new book for us, so my familiarity with it is low.

I do not even know what the abbreviation "FC2" is, nor have I heard of that race. We are fairly lenient with multiclassing, in as far as changing your favored class is generally doable.

And remember, while the RP aspect is critical here, I do need the character to be quite powerful as I will often be doing things that will be illegal and likely to tick off a good many other people.

[Kizara]

Well if you don't want to use any magic for it, then I guess the interaction skills are the way to go (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive). Maybe with some physical abilities to back up threats, and a little bit of magic to screw people over.

The first recommendation that springs to mind is rogue. It gives you the skill points for the interaction, along with nice abilities for general use (who doesn't like evasion?) Sneak attack is always welcome too, and UMD is a godsend.

For the other half of the build, how about hexblade? I know they're notoriously average, but I think it would work well. Full BAB, D10 HD, a respectable selection of spells later on (you can avoid the charm type ones you don't want), a familiar that you can use as a spy or (if you go with Improved Familiar) a bruiser-type aid to intimidate people. The curse has a sucky DC, but will be useful every now and again. Plus, you get mettle, which will go along nicely with evasion - you'll never have to worry about secondary effects/half damage again! Plus you'll get Cha to most of your saves anyway. Now you also have full martial proficiency, so wielding a greatsword while power attacking (and probably sneak attacking) will cause a lot of damage. You won't have med or heavy armour proficiency though, but that would interfere with most of your class abilities anyway. Go with a mithral breastplate, and you won't suffer a huge amount for it anyway.

As far as your abilities go, I'd suggest:

Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 18

Your weak point is going to be your fort saves. Even mettle can't help you if you fail a save there. Hence the high Con, and it might even be worth blowing a feat on Great Fortitude.

If the fancy takes you later, getting into blackguard would be extremely easy, and the abilities there stack up quite nicely (more sneak attack, Cha to saves again, another spy/companion, more spells...)

As for race, human's always a good choice. It gives you a feat to burn. Half-elf is less useless than normal due to the skill bonuses it gives too. The small races don't seem to fit your concept, and elf won't give you much. Don't even touch half-orc, as it'll screw you over twice. Outside of PHB, there are dozens of choices, but you don't need stat boosts at all, and unless you want weird and whacky racial abilities, then there's not much you need.

To be honest your build does not seem very powerful at all. Rogue/hexblade doesn't seem like a terrible idea, but I dont really desire to get more then 4 hexblade max. Personally, I always found that my character's version of evasion was a high amount of HP and the ability to end the fight before running out of said HP.

And by saying "human-like" I wasn't meaning to refer to phb-only races. I was actually considering half-fiend, githyanki and vampire.

[bigbaddragon]

You could make it Cleric//Rogue.

You get all good saves, bunch of skill points, sneak attack, spellcasting and full BAB via Divine Power. Spell domain is also pretty good looking for it's Anyspell and Greater Anyspell.

Your race could be Tiefling (bonus to int, dex, penalty to cha, LA +1) or you could just add Half-Fiend template to your human (bonuses to all stats except wisdom, LA +4). Maybe you could even use some of the bloodlines in Unearthed Arcana.

Your abilities could be:
human/half-fiend human
str: 18/22
dex: 12/16
con: 16/18
int: 14/18
wis: 18/18
cha: 18/20

You said you have much money. There is a belt in Miniatures Handbook that grants +6 to all stats for 200k gp (I think its called Belt of Magnificence). There are also lesser versions of it:
+4 to all stats for 100k gp
+2 to all stats for 25k gp.

Edit: You already considered Half-Fiend. Dang ...
Other than that its bad that you can't use Complete Champion. There are some pretty good domain devotion feats there that add sacred or profane bonuses to AC, strength, speed ....

[Overlard]

To be honest your build does not seem very powerful at all. Rogue/hexblade doesn't seem like a terrible idea, but I dont really desire to get more then 4 hexblade max. Personally, I always found that my character's version of evasion was a high amount of HP and the ability to end the fight before running out of said HP.
Then isn't that your character's version of AC as well? :smallwink:

You're right, it's not awesomely powerful, but I didn't realise that was a requirement. But it does fit your criteria of a dominator, and gives you some nice abilities all the way along. If you want power, then make sure at least one half is pure caster/manifester.


And by saying "human-like" I wasn't meaning to refer to phb-only races. I was actually considering half-fiend, githyanki and vampire.
I know, but generally LA races end up weaker than their non-LA rivals (less of an issue with gestalt though). Vampire (or half-vampire from Libris Mortis) would make excellent dominators, but that would mostly come from their supernatural abilities. Like I said though, with the stats you have, you really don't need any racial boosts, and unless there are specific SLA or similar that you want for the character, there's no big reason not to go human.

[Reinboom]

For the dragon shaman, think more of.. class with party beneficial auras, including social improvement with these. A strange attack that can't be used every round (breath), and a few interesting abilities as well as decent saves, HD, and avg BAB.
They are not a bad class.

Oh, and thank you for clarifying your domination, this could be fun to conceive a build - but may take a while.
In these cases, illusion magic and mindbender under half. That is, beguiler -> Mindbender to be more precise. This will cover skill points, armored casting use (and you can grab battle caster to make more out of the build).
May I ask how fierce? Whips? Spiked chains? Acids? Is your idea more melee oriented in combat?

Now: Aside of all of that. Sorry for abbreviating, FC2 = Fiendish Codex 2. Hellbred is a LA 0 race, that is a humanoid, http://www.pifro.com/tempmove/101472.jpg (I would link to FC2's gallery on wizards, but they seam to be down :smallannoyed: )
They get devil related feats, exception from evil items, bonus to intimidate, 2 options of race abilities (one has telepathy built in, but not until level 15).
Favored Class: Paladin :smallsigh:

[Ikkitosen]

Rogue / Assassin // Wizard would be ok. Sneaky, casty, death attack, great magic from both sides, great INT synergy. Also, since you're a baddy and a bully, you should essentially be a coward at heart - so take Craven (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Craven,), and get your level as a bonus to sneak attack damage :smallamused:

Dex 18
Int 18
Cha 16
Str 12
Con 18 (need hp)
Wis 14

You can be a scary, intimidating dominator in the mould of Artemis Entreri, but with all kinds of evil magics thrown into the mix.

[slexlollar89]

drow female (dominate much?) cleric (domination domain) or sorcerer//rogue
prestige into mindbender and/or assasin, maybe ur-priest... just an idea

alternatively:

human male wizard//fighter or duskblade prestige into archmage and/or thrall of grazzt

these are just some simple ideas, they are for good RP and somewhat powerful.

[yango]

Cleric 20//Monk 1/Druid 19

9th level cleric spells, 9th level druid spells, full wildshaping, wis to AC, and +19/+14/+9/+4 BAB (unless your DM is using fractional BAB for Gestalt, which he should).

Gestalt has the problem that any class can get full BAB if you work with it right.

For example:
Wizard 20//Sorcerer 20 has +10/+5 BAB at level 20.
Fighter 1/Wizard 20//Sorcerer 20 has +20/+15/+10/+5 BAB. How?

Fighter 1//Sorcerer 1 - +1 BAB
Fighter 1/Wizard 1//Sorcerer 2 - Sorc gets +1 BAB, so +2 total
Fighter 1/Wizard 2//Sorcerer 3 - Wiz gets +1 BAB, so +3 total
etc.
etc.

[Kizara]

bigbaddragon:
Not a bad idea, although where is this Spell Domain?
Although one generally wants a higher dex as a rogue.

Sweetrain:
Beguiler seems too bard-like to me. And is based on the use of enchantment/illusion magic. What I specifically wanted to avoid.
Dragon shaman is a party support class, similar to war chanter. Something this character is definately not going for.

"May I ask how fierce? Whips? Spiked chains? Acids? Is your idea more melee oriented in combat?"
Stop at snuff and mutilation. Otherwise, I have a lot of knowledge and experience and intend on RPing the details. I really can't describe it without offendeding people/violating forum rules.
And yes, it is more melee oriented. Although I have no issue with having spellcasting.

Ikkitosen:
Maybe you enjoy characters that are cowardly, I do not. I'm not looking for that here.

slexlollar89:
Drow priestess is definately the right idea and attitude. Only thing is that I'm not wanting to play another female character right now, as my last few major one's were all female.

yango:
Definately the most powerful suggestion I've seen, but it also completely doesn't match my RP.

Wisdom-based character devoted to nature, meditation and religion is almost exactly what I wasn't looking for. But if I just want a strong build, I'll use that one in the future.

[yango]

yango:
Definately the most powerful suggestion I've seen, but it also completely doesn't match my RP.

Wisdom-based character devoted to nature, meditation and religion is almost exactly what I wasn't looking for. But if I just want a strong build, I'll use that one in the future.

Apologies. I got your thread mixed up with another one on a completely different forum which I was writing for simultaneously.

Dominator? If Beguiler isn't your thing, Duskblade//something else could work. Also, there's the possibility of something Psionic...

[GryffonDurime]

Say it with me now: Wilder 5/Thrallherd X//Warlock 5/Mindbender X. Seriously, if you need more thralls or attempts at dominating per day, I'd be worried. Warlock can easily be replaced by Sorcerer if you want more power, but the Warlock does offer some nice no-brainer abilities like a free fly speed. And who -wouldn't- be afraid of the crazy thrallherd who can shatter nearby objects with a word at will?

[Exil3dbyrd]

Check out the ghostfaced killer prestige class, that might mesh with your idea of using other means of subjegating people. If so then something like ninja//cleric into ghost faced killer...?

[Draz74]

Sounds like Thrallherd (psionic PrC) would be perfect for this character. It does get the Psionic Charm power as an ability, but it doesn't have to use it. It also gets Psionic Dominate two levels later (ECL 10 or 11), and then it gets a bunch of features that upgrade its Domination abilities. It attracts lots of "thralls" that become your slaves, and it's generally an overpowered class, so it will fit right into your game. :smallwink:

I'd say a Wilder 5/Thrallherd might fit your concept better than a Psion (Telepath)/Thrallherd, even though it means you'll need to waste an Expanded Knowledge feat to learn the prereq power Mindlink. Wilder gives you a lot of power behind your Powers, a limited selection of powers to make the character a specialized one, and easy access to Bluff/Intimidate, with Charisma as your casting stat.

For your other half, I'm having trouble thinking what works best. You've already got your concept covered, so I'm just trying to think what covers up your weaknesses and matches your general style of fun characters.

Dipping 3 levels of Hexblade is probably a good idea, just for the sake of your saves (Arcane Resistance and Mettle), and because Hexblade goes well with your Charisma/Strength preference. If you're OK with being evil, eventually Blackguard could expand on this same theme.

Swashbuckler could be a good dip too. Good BAB, HP, Fort save, a little boost to your Ref save, and a way to use all your Int bonus in combat. Use a rapier with Power Attack.

So: Human. Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 18.
Wilder 6 / Thrallherd 10 / Wilder 4 // Hexblade 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Knight 10 / Blackguard 4. Or something like that.
First level, you get 36 skill points. Max out Bluff, Intimidate, Know (Psionics), and Diplomacy.

At 6th Level, don't forget to take Expanded Knowledge (Mindlink) to fulfill prerequisites for Thrallherd.

[Fax Celestis]

Knight//Ranger may be neat, or you could go Rogue/Assassin//Beguiler for ultrasneakymanipulativeness.

[bigbaddragon]

bigbaddragon:
Not a bad idea, although where is this Spell Domain?
Although one generally wants a higher dex as a rogue.


Spell domain is in the Spell Compendium page 280. It's granted power is +2 to concentration and spellcraft checks. Spells are:
1) Mage Armor
2) Silence
3) Anyspell
4) Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer
5) Break Enchantment
6) Greater Anyspell
7) Limited Wish
8) Antimagic Field
9) Mordekainen's Disjunction

There are also other pretty nice domains in there, such as Charm (raise your charisma for ten rounds once per day), Planning (you gain Extended Spell feat), Time (gives Improved Initiative), Undeath (gives Extra Turning) ...

For more dexterity there is cleric level 5 spell Divine Agility which gives +10 enhancement bonus to dexterity for round/level. The spell is also in Spell Compendium page 69.

One more thing (I don't know if you know about this but): you can't combine two prestige classes at any level, you can only combine either two regular classes or one regular and one prestige class at any level, so you'll have to make some planning in advance.

GL HF

[Fax Celestis]

Celerity's a good domain too. +10' untyped movement speed.

[Tellah]

Try out Psion (Telepath)20//Rogue1/Swashbuckler19 with the Daring Outlaw feat. Full sneak attack, 19 BAB, grace, and full manifesting. There's nothing better than a Telepath for undetectable mind control with a simple Concentration check. It's even sweeter with Warblade instead of the Rogue/Swash combo, but since you're not using ToB I'd call this tasty.

STR 14
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 18
WIS 12
CHA 18

[bigbaddragon]

Celerity's a good domain too. +10' untyped movement speed.

Though only in light or no armor, but its still good domain (one of my favorites). Now how about Sloth domain :smallbiggrin: ? Probably the funniest granted power I saw. I totaly didn't expect something like that.

[Kizara]

The psionic ideas, including that thrall PRC all sound like good ideas.

We don't really use psionics though, and I literally got the RPH 2 days ago and have barely looked through the race section.

Thanks for those domain ideas, I will certinally keep them in mind if I look at a cleric.

To be honest, something like rogue/hexblade/fighter/mindbender//cleric/cool divine prc is looking like the best option.

[Ramza00]

How about a swiftblade build including these options.

2 lvls of Monk for feats and eventually cha to ac with Ascetic Mage
10 lvls of Swiftbalde
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327
4 lvls of Hexblade
2 lvls of Arcane Duelist for another cha to ac
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/re/re20030224a
X lvls of Blackguard at least 2 though.
Fill the rest with Sorcerer, and some miscellanous classes such as feat rogue, mindbender, 2 lvls of Unseen Seer for Hunter's Eye, etc.

Pix weapons as maces to smash and pulverize causing disfegeriment especially after greater mighty wallop. Flavorwise make your character dark, etc.

[GNUsNotUnix]

Just give it a shot as Rogue/Sorceror. Charisma for spells, intelligence for skills, and strength to make use of sneak attacks. Once you've got improved invisibility, your sneak attacks will be dangerously powerful . . . just like your spells.