So, about Berserk...

[Amaril]

Up until a little while ago, I was having a great time finally getting into Berserk. The art is gorgeous, and I really love Midland as a world, it hits a ton of my big buttons for fantasy (I wouldn't mind playing some games in it, with the right people).

There is, however, one big problem that's stood out to me pretty much from the very beginning: the misogyny. It's...really gross. And I'm not talking about the misogyny of Midland or the people in it, that doesn't bother me (well, it does, but...you know what I mean). I'm talking about the obvious real misogyny of Miura as a creator. I've learned to tolerate a certain base level of it in most Japanese media I consume, but for crying out loud, every. Single. Arc prominently features main female characters being stripped and threatened with sexual assault, if not worse! It goes way beyond Midland being a dark, gritty, sexist world where this kind of stuff is frequent, and far into obvious magical realm territory hiding behind a thin excuse of "but it's realistic for the world!"

But okay, fine. It's uncomfortable, but I'll put up with it for the sake of the good stuff. Then I get to the part where...
Guts has reunited with Casca and the two are on their way to Aelfheim. Casca has just escaped and wandered off to be pounced on by a gang of bandits, who are, of course, about to rape her. Guts deals with them and saves Casca, but she understandably resists him when he tries to grab her and drag her to her feet...at which point the Beast of Darkness takes control, causing him to pin her down and try to rape her himself before he regains his senses, though not before he's clearly passed the line of what constitutes sexual assault.
I...don't get it. I mean, pretty much everything I've ever heard about Berserk paints it as one of the greatest things ever made. Did everybody just forget about this? Or are the people praising Berserk really okay with a story that lets the protagonist do stuff like this and still treats them as the protagonist? It's not like the Beast of Darkness is an actual demon that's possessing Guts--far as I can tell, it's just his visualization of his own anger, so this behavior is all on him. Is there something about this scene I'm not getting, or is it exactly what it looks like?

[Rynjin]

...Why would Guts cease to be the protagonist just because he does something bad? Protagonist just means the viewpoint or main character, it is not synonymous with "hero".

More to the point, where were you for the rest of the series? When did you get this sense that Guts is a good person? When he reveled in slaughter? When he repeatedly put men under his command at risk to satisfy his own bloodlust? Or maybe it was when he killed a child in cold blood and showed no remorse after the fact (you might think he acted shocked/distraught but remember it is explained that his weird behavior came from a concussion; He was just zonked, not sad)? What about the time he urged a young girl to kill herself and handed her the knife to do it with?

Guts is not and has never been a good person. He has never been a hero in the modern sense. He is sort a hero in the ancient sense, like how Hercules is a "hero", but he's never been this upstanding center of moral fortitude.

Guts is ****ed up and traumatized in more ways than most people can imagine. His aborted rape attempt of Casca is one of the milder examples of his "villainy". He stopped himself and then surrounded himself with other people to take care of her, distancing himself from any personal contact afterward.

[Blackhawk748]

The above with the fact that Berserk is stupidly (and often necessarily) dark. Like it goes past 40k dark (which often gets funny) into "i honestly think im reading the mental landscape of a madman" or "How ****ed up is the author?" territory. And this is a thing that happens in japan, Manga writers often get so over stressed or depressed that they go off and write something like Neon Genesis or something. They pour all of their rage, depression and screwed up mental states into their work and you get...this.

Now im not sure if Berserk is one of those, i just know its a thing that happens on occasion.

[lunaticfringe]

It's also famously "rapey". I'm not really sure what you expected. I like some dark ****, but couldn't get into it. Not that you should feel bad or anything, I kinda just lost interest in Manga/Anime as I got older. Maybe flip past those parts? Or stop reading it? It's not new and isn't going change because it's popular as is.

[Amaril]

...Why would Guts cease to be the protagonist just because he does something bad? Protagonist just means the viewpoint or main character, it is not synonymous with "hero".

More to the point, where were you for the rest of the series? When did you get this sense that Guts is a good person? When he reveled in slaughter? When he repeatedly put men under his command at risk to satisfy his own bloodlust? Or maybe it was when he killed a child in cold blood and showed no remorse after the fact (you might think he acted shocked/distraught but remember it is explained that his weird behavior came from a concussion; He was just zonked, not sad)? What about the time he urged a young girl to kill herself and handed her the knife to do it with?

Guts is not and has never been a good person. He has never been a hero in the modern sense. He is sort a hero in the ancient sense, like how Hercules is a "hero", but he's never been this upstanding center of moral fortitude.

Guts is ****ed up and traumatized in more ways than most people can imagine. His aborted rape attempt of Casca is one of the milder examples of his "villainy". He stopped himself and then surrounded himself with other people to take care of her, distancing himself from any personal contact afterward.

Are you talking about the time with the general's son? I don't remember them explaining that away with a concussion; if you can remember when that's said, I'd love to give it another look.

That aside, though, I've seen it said before that Guts isn't supposed to be a good guy, and honestly...I don't buy it. Other than that one time, I can't think of a single case (far as I've read) where he hurts anyone who doesn't deserve it. More than any other character, he reminds me of the Hound from A Song of Ice and Fire. He talks a big game about what an awful person he is, and how the world is even worse, and how he doesn't care about anyone else and loves nothing better than killing, but it's mostly just talk, a defense mechanism to push people away because he has issues with trust and intimacy. If he revels in bloodlust while killing bad guys, it's because he has enough sense to recognize that he needs an outlet for all his anger, and allows himself to take it out on people who deserve it so he won't be tempted to lash out at those who don't. At least, that's my read so far, which is why this thing with Casca comes as such a shock to me. And I certainly wouldn't call it an aborted rape attempt--like I said, by the time he stops, he's already way across the line of sexual assault, even if it's not full-on rape.

Also, I do feel to some extent like sexual violence is on another level. I mean, our culture is full of "heroic" characters who commit all kinds of violence that's pretty horrific when we stop to think about it. But I can think of very few who commit sexual violence. Maybe that's just my upbringing making me biased--I do think American culture tends to be too condemning of all things sexual yet a bit too forgiving of other kinds of violence.

As far as the thing with the Duke's daughter...this might sound weird, but I actually kind of agree with what he's saying there. Or, at least, I can respect the worldview that would bring him to that kind of conclusion. The idea of saying to someone that if they feel their suffering is too great to go on living, it's their right to end it, doesn't horrify me. I mean, it's something we actually debate in real life, in cases of suffering from illness. Anyway, that whole speech was, of course, filtered through Guts' own abrasive manner--when he outright tells her to end it, what he's really doing is encouraging her to keep going by challenging her. Trying to rouse defiance in her, because hey, it's what keeps him alive, why wouldn't it work for someone else?

I would never claim that Guts is a nice person, or sensitive, or empathetic. But at the end of the day, everything I've seen up to the point where I stopped does indicate to me that he is basically good. At least, I can't say he isn't without saying the same of tons of other characters who I think most people agree are generally good guys in their respective stories.


The above with the fact that Berserk is stupidly (and often necessarily) dark. Like it goes past 40k dark (which often gets funny) into "i honestly think im reading the mental landscape of a madman" or "How ****ed up is the author?" territory. And this is a thing that happens in japan, Manga writers often get so over stressed or depressed that they go off and write something like Neon Genesis or something. They pour all of their rage, depression and screwed up mental states into their work and you get...this.

Now im not sure if Berserk is one of those, i just know its a thing that happens on occasion.

Yeah, I can't really comment on this. I got into Berserk because of Dark Souls, so I never really looked into the development of the comic itself much. (Funnily enough, Dark Souls stands out to me as an excellent example of gender equality in fantasy, which makes it weird that it sprung from this source.)

[Prime32]

If [Hound] revels in bloodlust while killing bad guys, it's because he has enough sense to recognize that he needs an outlet for all his anger, and allows himself to take it out on people who deserve it so he won't be tempted to lash out at those who don't. At least, that's my read so far, which is why this thing with Casca comes as such a shock to me.
That is exactly why the Casca thing happened. Guts had just sworn off his outlet, and it was one he needed so badly that he started hallucinating that all his darker feelings were the result of an evil dog telling him to do things. That's... generally not a good sign.

While Guts loved Casca, she was also an obstacle to getting his fix (i.e. if she died he could use it as an excuse to go back to killing). In order to fight back desires that strong and unhealthy, he had to devote himself just as strongly to the idea of protecting Casca. When Casca herself was stopping him from protecting Casca, with Guts already in a bad mental state, he had a psychotic break and took it out on her. It certainly isn't brushed off afterwards.

[Rynjin]

Are you talking about the time with the general's son? I don't remember them explaining that away with a concussion; if you can remember when that's said, I'd love to give it another look.

It's in the chapters between Assassin and the Battle for Doldrey somewhere. He hit his head on a rock and passed out in the sewers for quite some time after killing Adonis, you'll recall.


That aside, though, I've seen it said before that Guts isn't supposed to be a good guy, and honestly...I don't buy it. Other than that one time, I can't think of a single case (far as I've read) where he hurts anyone who doesn't deserve it. More than any other character, he reminds me of the Hound from A Song of Ice and Fire. He talks a big game about what an awful person he is, and how the world is even worse, and how he doesn't care about anyone else and loves nothing better than killing, but it's mostly just talk, a defense mechanism to push people away because he has issues with trust and intimacy. If he revels in bloodlust while killing bad guys, it's because he has enough sense to recognize that he needs an outlet for all his anger, and allows himself to take it out on people who deserve it so he won't be tempted to lash out at those who don't. At least, that's my read so far, which is why this thing with Casca comes as such a shock to me. And I certainly wouldn't call it an aborted rape attempt--like I said, by the time he stops, he's already way across the line of sexual assault, even if it's not full-on rape.

Pretty much what Prime32 said here.


Also, I do feel to some extent like sexual violence is on another level. I mean, our culture is full of "heroic" characters who commit all kinds of violence that's pretty horrific when we stop to think about it. But I can think of very few who commit sexual violence. Maybe that's just my upbringing making me biased--I do think American culture tends to be too condemning of all things sexual yet a bit too forgiving of other kinds of violence.

Remember, this morality was not always the same way. I mentioned Greek heroes for a reason. Rape was never depicted as a GOOD thing, per se, but did not carry the same weight as it does today (where it is often considered to be a worse or at least more reprehensible crime than murder). If a modern hero raped someone, nobody would ever consider them a hero again. If an ancient hero raped someone, it would be considered a black mark on them, certainly, but is not an irredeemable crime even if they show no remose for he act.

Berserk is written in a certain way in the style of a Greek epic.

Mind you I do feel rape is way overused as a plot device in Berserk as a whole. It's a bit ridiculous that nearly every female character has an on-screen attempted rape, and a LOT ridiculous that Casca's rape attempts (not including the actual rape[s] she endured) number in the high teens, at least. I feel it undermines a lot of otherwise very strong characters. Pre-mindbreak Casca and Farnese fight an uphill battle against those shown moments of abject helplessness.

However, I feel the two primary scenes involving Casca being raped by demons/Griffith and her near-rape and, yes, sexual assault by Guts are two very well done scenes that serve an important narrative purpose. The fact that the plot device is over-used in Casca's backstory and on screen presence up to the Eclipse (which numbers four rape attempts pre-Eclipse as I recall, one in her backstory, two by Adon [who she does kill by her own hand in a fair fight at least], and one by the Apostle Wyald) and afterward doesn't undermine the narrative impact and significance of the two others.

[Amaril]

That is exactly why the Casca thing happened. Guts had just sworn off his outlet, and it was one he needed so badly that he started hallucinating that all his darker feelings were the result of an evil dog telling him to do things. That's... generally not a good sign.

While Guts loved Casca, she was also an obstacle to getting his fix (i.e. if she died he could use it as an excuse to go back to killing). In order to fight back desires that strong and unhealthy, he had to devote himself just as strongly to the idea of protecting Casca. When Casca herself was stopping him from protecting Casca, with Guts already in a bad mental state, he had a psychotic break and took it out on her. It certainly isn't brushed off afterwards.

I...guess I hadn't really been seeing the Beast as a straight-up hallucination. I wrote it off as just a mix of Guts' imagination and a symbol for the audience's benefit, something to make the scenes of him struggling with his dark impulses more visually interesting for us to watch. When you put it like that, though, it starts to make a lot more sense. The whole thing definitely still makes me uncomfortable, but I do feel like maybe I can go on with the story now. Which is good, because I really do want to like Berserk, and I'm super curious to see where it goes.


It's in the chapters between Assassin and the Battle for Doldrey somewhere. He hit his head on a rock and passed out in the sewers for quite some time after killing Adonis, you'll recall.

I don't remember that part super well, but I'll take your word for it.


Remember, this morality was not always the same way. I mentioned Greek heroes for a reason. Rape was never depicted as a GOOD thing, per se, but did not carry the same weight as it does today (where it is often considered to be a worse or at least more reprehensible crime than murder). If a modern hero raped someone, nobody would ever consider them a hero again. If an ancient hero raped someone, it would be considered a black mark on them, certainly, but is not an irredeemable crime even if they show no remose for he act.

Berserk is written in a certain way in the style of a Greek epic.

That's another thing I've heard before, and I believe that's part of Miura's intent, but it just seems like a weird artistic choice on his part to me. I mean, the aesthetics and themes of Berserk put me in mind of a lot of possible inspirations, but Greek epic morality isn't one of them. Not sure how to explain it, just...that concept seems sort of out of place with everything else to me. And I feel like if that's what he's going for, he could do a better job of showing it consistently. Most of the time, when I read Guts, I don't think of a classical hero--I think of a pulp sword-and-sorcery protagonist, or someone out of a Western. Appropriately or not, those are the standards I've been judging Guts by, and for the most part, I find they work quite well, which makes it jarring to suddenly be forced back to a classical lens.


Mind you I do feel rape is way overused as a plot device in Berserk as a whole. It's a bit ridiculous that nearly every female character has an on-screen attempted rape, and a LOT ridiculous that Casca's rape attempts (not including the actual rape[s] she endured) number in the high teens, at least. I feel it undermines a lot of otherwise very strong characters. Pre-mindbreak Casca and Farnese fight an uphill battle against those shown moments of abject helplessness.

However, I feel the two primary scenes involving Casca being raped by demons/Griffith and her near-rape and, yes, sexual assault by Guts are two very well done scenes that serve an important narrative purpose. The fact that the plot device is over-used in Casca's backstory and on screen presence up to the Eclipse (which numbers four rape attempts pre-Eclipse as I recall, one in her backstory, two by Adon [who she does kill by her own hand in a fair fight at least], and one by the Apostle Wyald) and afterward doesn't undermine the narrative impact and significance of the two others.

For the most part, I agree. The Eclipse is very well-done and appropriate to the story, but pretty much all the other attempted rape stuff is totally unnecessary and gratuitous. And it definitely undermines the female characters, but to be fair, I don't think Miura is really all that great at writing strong female characters even if you take that stuff out. I mean, Casca, who's built up as a huge badass warrior, is completely robbed of all competence by her period. Seriously? In real life, every woman in the world shrugs that s*** off like it's nothing and goes on with her daily business, and Casca is supposed to be way tougher than most of them. As for Farnese, when she's first introduced, it looks for a second like she might be solid, but no, she's just another female character totally defined by her sexuality. It's just...really not great. I'm hoping it gets better later--Schierke has been on-screen for all of one brief introduction scene as far as I've read, but she already looks promising, at least.

[Rynjin]

You might want to recheck on some of those classic sword and sorcery protagonists, Conan the Barbarian has a lot in common with Guts, right down to attempted rape in at least one (in)famous story (it at the very least plays fast and loose with a modern understanding of consent). Conan, similarly to Guts, is not what you'd describe as a good person.

You also need to keep in mind the culture in which it was written. Late 80's Japan was...not a very progressive place as far as attitudes toward women. It still isn't. Miura being a relatively young 23 year old at the time would have already been well steeped in the culture of the time.

Not an excuse, per se, but an explanation.

Schierke's pretty badass though. Being honest, I'm not much further than you in the manga at this point, maybe 10-15 chapters after Schierke's intro, so I'm not sure if she gets hit or not. I've been told Farnese gets much better though through slow character development.

[Amaril]

You might want to recheck on some of those classic sword and sorcery protagonists, Conan the Barbarian has a lot in common with Guts, right down to attempted rape in at least one (in)famous story (it at the very least plays fast and loose with a modern understanding of consent). Conan, similarly to Guts, is not what you'd describe as a good person.

Yeah, most of my experience with sword-and-sorcery is Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser rather than Conan, so I'm sure that affects my judgment. Leiber seems more lighthearted than the sense I get of Howard. Fafhrd and the Mouser are far from good guys, but they're notably distasteful of things like rape and torture (at least, from what I've read so far). Also, when I sit down to read sword-and-sorcery, I know going in that I'm in for some stuff that wouldn't fly in more contemporary fiction, so I can set my expectations accordingly. I wasn't so prepared to do the same in Berserk, to that extent.


You also need to keep in mind the culture in which it was written. Late 80's Japan was...not a very progressive place as far as attitudes toward women. It still isn't. Miura being a relatively young 23 year old at the time would have already been well steeped in the culture of the time.

Not an excuse, per se, but an explanation.

Yeah, so I understand. Like I said, I've come to expect a certain level of misogyny out of Japan, it's just Berserk goes rather beyond even that. Though most of my experience is more recent than the 80s.

[Razade]

I mean, pretty much everything I've ever heard about Berserk paints it as one of the greatest things ever made. Did everybody just forget about this?


Nope. I'm just...mature enough to understand that stories can include aspects I might find questionable or detestable and still be a good work of art, literature, music, etc. Sometimes, that's what makes them so great.


Or are the people praising Berserk really okay with a story that lets the protagonist do stuff like this and still treats them as the protagonist?

Yes. I should hope this. Just because the character is the protagonist doesn't mean he's got to be some beacon of virtue. Or even a beacon of just being a decent person. A story doesn't have to cater to my exact "enlightened" post-millennium sensibilities.

[danzibr]

About the Casca being robbed of her badassness by her period, which most every woman has not much of a problem with, there's a condition (endometriosis I think) that pretty much does exactly that.

I won't go into details, but I know a tough woman with a high pain tolerance who gets pretty debilitated on the worst day of the month.

[Present 2.0]

Wait, that Dog was supposed to only a halluzination. I thought, it was a literal Demon that posessed Guts.

And I still choose to believe that, because it is totally plausible in that world and a little bit nicer.

To be fair to Guts(Spoiler for shortly after the Demon Dog Incident)

It is heavily implied that he accepts his new companions after the incident, because it is more unlikely, that he'll do anything like that again with other people in the group. So he makes an effort to avoid a repetition of that incident.

As for the fact, that Berserk has a bit too much rape in general:

I think, it is a bad sign, that i was laughing instead of terrified, when it was revealed how the kushans made their demon foot soldiers.

[Rynjin]

Wait, that Dog was supposed to only a halluzination. I thought, it was a literal Demon that posessed Guts.

And I still choose to believe that, because it is totally plausible in that world and a little bit nicer.

Having read a smidge further, the Beast of Darkness is...incredibly unclear how it works. I THINK it's still like a manifestation of his hate, fear, and pain but it may very well be some demonic force CREATED by those feelings since

The Berserker Armor actually changes shape to reflect its presence in Guts' mind.

So it's really weird.

[Legato Endless]

Having read a smidge further, the Beast of Darkness is...incredibly unclear how it works. I THINK it's still like a manifestation of his hate, fear, and pain but it may very well be some demonic force CREATED by those feelings since

The Berserker Armor actually changes shape to reflect its presence in Guts' mind.

So it's really weird.

This is correct. It's not a demon possessing him. It's an amalgamation of his darker impulses which might have gained spiritual resonance and independence beyond that. This would make it very similar to The Idea of Evil. A creature born of man's psyche but which later became its own entity in fulfilling it's purpose.

[Brother Oni]

I mean, Casca, who's built up as a huge badass warrior, is completely robbed of all competence by her period. Seriously? In real life, every woman in the world shrugs that s*** off like it's nothing and goes on with her daily business, and Casca is supposed to be way tougher than most of them.

Every woman is different and the level of debilitation can range from mild discomfort to virtually bed bound, depending on what her hormones are doing to her body.

I've seen bodily fluid levels ranging from a couple spots to 'has there been a stabbing victim?' without a good correlation to how well a woman goes about her daily business.

[Amaril]

Nope. I'm just...mature enough to understand that stories can include aspects I might find questionable or detestable and still be a good work of art, literature, music, etc. Sometimes, that's what makes them so great.

...

Yes. I should hope this. Just because the character is the protagonist doesn't mean he's got to be some beacon of virtue. Or even a beacon of just being a decent person. A story doesn't have to cater to my exact "enlightened" post-millennium sensibilities.

Like I said, it's a question of expectations. When I sit down to read a classical epic, I know what I can expect from the heroes, and can set my standards accordingly. The problem I encountered here is that I was expecting one set of moral standards from Berserk, and got a different one that took me by surprise.


About the Casca being robbed of her badassness by her period, which most every woman has not much of a problem with, there's a condition (endometriosis I think) that pretty much does exactly that.

I won't go into details, but I know a tough woman with a high pain tolerance who gets pretty debilitated on the worst day of the month.


Every woman is different and the level of debilitation can range from mild discomfort to virtually bed bound, depending on what her hormones are doing to her body.

I've seen bodily fluid levels ranging from a couple spots to 'has there been a stabbing victim?' without a good correlation to how well a woman goes about her daily business.

Yeah, I know endometriosis is a thing, and I realize even healthy periods are different for everyone who has them. It's just that I've seen a lot of women in my life take this as a point of pride--"we deal with this every month so well you men don't even notice, even when it's really bad, so don't you dare say we're not tough"--which made Miura's treatment of it uncomfortable to see. Also, knowing him, which seems more likely: that he researched endometriosis and severe period discomfort and decided to make that a challenge Casca faced because he thought it would enhance her character, or that he did it because lol, isn't it silly to think a woman could actually be as capable a warrior as a man?

[Dr.Samurai]

I haven't read any of the manga. I've watched the old anime, and the OVAs.

My takeaway so far is that Guts is psychologically traumatized and has a darkness inside of him that he can barely control sometimes. I'm not sure why it's okay to go berserk and kill lots and lots of men, but not go berserk and almost rape a woman.

The guy has a violent darkness inside of him that he has trouble resisting.

[Lacuna Caster]

However, I feel the two primary scenes involving Casca being raped by demons/Griffith and her near-rape and, yes, sexual assault by Guts are two very well done scenes that serve an important narrative purpose. The fact that the plot device is over-used in Casca's backstory and on screen presence up to the Eclipse (which numbers four rape attempts pre-Eclipse as I recall, one in her backstory, two by Adon [who she does kill by her own hand in a fair fight at least], and one by the Apostle Wyald) and afterward doesn't undermine the narrative impact and significance of the two others.

For the most part, I agree. The Eclipse is very well-done and appropriate to the story, but pretty much all the other attempted rape stuff is totally unnecessary and gratuitous. And it definitely undermines the female characters, but to be fair, I don't think Miura is really all that great at writing strong female characters even if you take that stuff out. I mean, Casca, who's built up as a huge badass warrior, is completely robbed of all competence by her period.

My introduction to Berserk was the anime, and I do love the franchise dearly, but yeah- even with the partial excuse of a grimdark crapsack universe it does have some problems with women characters. (Whenever I hear folks complain about leaving out Wyald's fight scene I am deeply grateful that the page with his phallic-pineapple-tongue was left on the cutting-room floor.)

And of course, Griffith Did Nothing Wrong.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, I know endometriosis is a thing, and I realize even healthy periods are different for everyone who has them. It's just that I've seen a lot of women in my life take this as a point of pride--"we deal with this every month so well you men don't even notice, even when it's really bad, so don't you dare say we're not tough"--which made Miura's treatment of it uncomfortable to see. Also, knowing him, which seems more likely: that he researched endometriosis and severe period discomfort and decided to make that a challenge Casca faced because he thought it would enhance her character, or that he did it because lol, isn't is silly to think a woman could actually be as capable a warrior as a man?

I think the latter is actually more likely, though the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Miura reaaaally likes foreshadowing, it would not surprise me if he stumbled onto endometriosis as foreshadowing for her miscarriage or something.

[LaZodiac]

Here's, arguably, the only real take you need to think about with Berserk, at least with regards to Guts' character. Involves spoilers for later on...WAY later on.

Guts is an edgy DND character with a grim backstory. Almost the entire series is "that backstory" and once the rest of the party shows up he starts defrosting. He's a man who's life is nothing but pain and suffering and he only knows how to react to things with pain and suffering. But then he gets better once he tags along with the rest of the five man band, which includes two children that Can Not Be Hurt Ever because they're too precious.

[The Fury]

I got to confess... I never considered the notion that Berserk is misogynistic before. A big part of that was when I was first introduced to the series, I'd regularly be shown whatever manga/anime series that whatever acquaintance was obsessed with at the time, and... it actually made Berserk look good in that regard. Casca might have been robbed of all competence by menstrual cramps from hell, but at least she wasn't robbed of (alleged) competence by getting her skirt flipped up.

Another big part is that, Berserk, and I know I'll offend... everyone by saying this, is a series that I got bored with. I'd checked out around the time Farnese and Serpico showed up, and everything I know about the series since then is largely from secondhand accounts. Not to say that Berserk doesn't have some cool material in it, because it totally does, and not to say it doesn't deserve its status as the modern codifier of the whole dark fantasy genre. I'm just sick of binging a massive archive that's only getting bigger.

My general impression is that I'd probably have more issues with the series if I kept at it.

[Amaril]

On a bit of a tangent: I have to disagree with calling Midland a grimdark world, or Berserk a grimdark story. To my read, it's pretty clearly nobledark. Yeah, pretty much everyone suffers horrifically through their parts of the story, but there's also an overall message through everything about hope, healing, and people's ability to move past even the most awful trauma. It seems pretty clear to me that in the end, good will win out and things will get better for the world. It's just taking its time getting there, and making those involved really work for that happy ending, which I really like.

[Rynjin]

I got to confess... I never considered the notion that Berserk is misogynistic before. A big part of that was when I was first introduced to the series, I'd regularly be shown whatever manga/anime series that whatever acquaintance was obsessed with at the time, and... it actually made Berserk look good in that regard. Casca might have been robbed of all competence by menstrual cramps from hell, but at least she wasn't robbed of (alleged) competence by getting her skirt flipped up.

Another big part is that, Berserk, and I know I'll offend... everyone by saying this, is a series that I got bored with. I'd checked out around the time Farnese and Serpico showed up, and everything I know about the series since then is largely from secondhand accounts. Not to say that Berserk doesn't have some cool material in it, because it totally does, and not to say it doesn't deserve its status as the modern codifier of the whole dark fantasy genre. I'm just sick of binging a massive archive that's only getting bigger.

My general impression is that I'd probably have more issues with the series if I kept at it.

Well, you can take heart that Berserk's massive archive is only getting more massive...in small increments very infrequently. There was like a 7 year hiatus at one point so in the grand scheme the series isn't much farther along than when you dropped it.

To put it in perspective, Hajime no Ippo, another series that has been running steady since 1989 (the same year as Berserk's debut) has almost 1200 chapters right now.

Berserk hasn't even cracked 400 yet.

I do think the series gets way better after the Conviction arc, which was the point where I started thinking the series may have peaked a the Golden Age. The supporting cast is a breath of fresh air, even if it does mean we lose snarky ******* Guts in place of "Hard on the exterior, but deep down, you know he's a good man" Guts.

[Lacuna Caster]

It seems pretty clear to me that in the end, good will win out and things will get better for the world. It's just taking its time getting there, and making those involved really work for that happy ending, which I really like.
Fair enough.

Unlike Fury, I never outright stopped reading- the art is just too juicy for that- but I would agree it doesn't grip me quite the same way these days. I would love the series wrapped up, mind you, and if there's a happy ending, all the better.

[Present 2.0]

isn't it silly to think a woman could actually be as capable a warrior as a man?

While I totally agree, that it is debatable, how Miura treats his female cast and uses the threat of rape for a female character way too repetitive, I never got the impression, that Cascas Desire to be a warrior is supposed to be silly.

[Legato Endless]

Yeah, I know endometriosis is a thing, and I realize even healthy periods are different for everyone who has them. It's just that I've seen a lot of women in my life take this as a point of pride--"we deal with this every month so well you men don't even notice, even when it's really bad, so don't you dare say we're not tough"--which made Miura's treatment of it uncomfortable to see. Also, knowing him, which seems more likely: that he researched endometriosis and severe period discomfort and decided to make that a challenge Casca faced because he thought it would enhance her character, or that he did it because lol, isn't it silly to think a woman could actually be as capable a warrior as a man?

I don't know. I find that line of reasoning to be arguably toxic. Which is not to defend Miura's issues, they certainly exist, but I wouldn't regard all women are tough because periods as much more than a strange invocation of positive sexism. Are women without periods not tough? Do they need to do more to prove they're tough?

More problematically, I don't really like how that brushes off the personal experiences of people who are more debilitated by various conditions. They might be a minority, but they still deserve a portrayal too even if that makes a larger group uncomfortable with stereotyping. Obviously if this were every women in a work that says ludicrous things about the author, but part of the issue with Berserk is all we've got is Casca for a long time. So her long recovery, which would be more thoughtfully nuanced in a work with better representation, does rub certain people the wrong way as being 'thrown in the fridge.'

[Lurkmoar]

I don't know. I find that line of reasoning to be arguably toxic. Which is not to defend Miura's issues, they certainly exist, but I wouldn't regard all women are tough because periods as much more than a strange invocation of positive sexism. Are women without periods not tough? Do they need to do more to prove they're tough?

More problematically, I don't really like how that brushes off the personal experiences of people who are more debilitated by various conditions. They might be a minority, but they still deserve a portrayal too even if that makes a larger group uncomfortable with stereotyping. Obviously if this were every women in a work that says ludicrous things about the author, but part of the issue with Berserk is all we've got is Casca for a long time. So her long recovery, which would be more thoughtfully nuanced in a work with better representation, does rub certain people the wrong way as being 'thrown in the fridge.'

I don't mind Casca not bouncing back right away. What happened to her seemed to have affected her on a metaphysical level, considering the top layer of her dream realm is a loose plane of scribbles and the under layer looks like the warp from Warhammer 40k. The damage was severe enough for them to go on the journey to find the Faerie King after Guts learned his lesson about leaving people precious to him.

And Skull Knight did imply she may not want to get better.

[Rynjin]

I don't mind Casca not bouncing back right away. What happened to her seemed to have affected her on a metaphysical level, considering the top layer of her dream realm is a loose plane of scribbles and the under layer looks like the warp from Warhammer 40k. The damage was severe enough for them to go on the journey to find the Faerie King after Guts learned his lesson about leaving people precious to him.

And Skull Knight did imply she may not want to get better.

I thought Skull Knight was actually implying that Casca might not share Guts' overwhelming desire for revenge against Griffith.

Re: Female representation, I dunno, the later chapters have been pretty good. Luca was an excellent side character, Farnese is developing well (and has thankfully dropped the masochist thing by the wayside), and Schierke is the ****ing MVP.

[danzibr]

Also, knowing him, which seems more likely: that he researched endometriosis and severe period discomfort and decided to make that a challenge Casca faced because he thought it would enhance her character, or that he did it because lol, isn't it silly to think a woman could actually be as capable a warrior as a man?
I dunno about researching endometriosis, but I don't think he did the lol bit either.

[Amaril]

I don't know. I find that line of reasoning to be arguably toxic. Which is not to defend Miura's issues, they certainly exist, but I wouldn't regard all women are tough because periods as much more than a strange invocation of positive sexism. Are women without periods not tough? Do they need to do more to prove they're tough?

More problematically, I don't really like how that brushes off the personal experiences of people who are more debilitated by various conditions. They might be a minority, but they still deserve a portrayal too even if that makes a larger group uncomfortable with stereotyping. Obviously if this were every women in a work that says ludicrous things about the author, but part of the issue with Berserk is all we've got is Casca for a long time. So her long recovery, which would be more thoughtfully nuanced in a work with better representation, does rub certain people the wrong way as being 'thrown in the fridge.'

I didn't mean to be exclusionary to women who don't get periods--I only meant to explain where my knee-jerk reaction against that part of Casca's portrayal came from, once it was rightly pointed out to me how there were realistic possibilities I wasn't considering. However, knee-jerk reaction aside, I still don't think any of those possibilities redeem Miura's choice. There's plenty else in Berserk to indicate his misogyny (see the incessant, fetishized sexual assault), which makes it hard for me to give him the benefit of the doubt. There are lots of writers I'd trust to write a strong, competent female warrior who happens to suffer from endometriosis or otherwise debilitating periods, and to portray such a character fairly; Miura isn't one of them.


I dunno about researching endometriosis, but I don't think he did the lol bit either.

Maybe not, I don't know. Either way, again, it's hardly the only misogynistic thing in Berserk.

[The Fury]

I dunno about researching endometriosis, but I don't think he did the lol bit either.

I'd be willing to bet that he did not. In the anime, (I assume the manga as well, but I haven't seen it in a very long time,) the whole sentiment of "Lol! Women can't be capable fighters! That's silly! Casca, you're silly!" was one echoed by Sir Adon. Sir Adon was characterized as an inept buffoon that was constantly disappointing General Boscogne, got slapped around by Guts and was later defeated by Casca herself. I mean, I hope we weren't meant to take what he says seriously.

[Rynjin]

I think Casca's only failing as a warrior is that for some reason she favors armor and clothes made of cotton candy, because a gentle one fingered tug is apparently enough to pull off a breastplate and the shirt underneath, somehow.

[Hazzardevil]

(see the incessant, fetishized sexual assault)


This some reason this rubs me up the wrong way. I can't imagine normal people really getting off on the rape/attempted rape in Berserk. That sounds to me like someone saying the daemonettes in Warhammer/40k are fetishized. Yes they are clearly have sexual characteristics, but are certainly not sexy. I don't think I can link a picture of one because of forum rules and directing someone to the right picture is difficult. As people tend to do, they do their own art and I think it loses the spirit of it.

Edit: I think Berserk is almost puritanical in its representation of sex itself. How often have we seen consensual sex in Berserk, I can think of a handful of times and even then, it doesn't end well.

I think something to remember is Miura hasn't been the same person the whole time he is writing Berserk. He's got married, probably having his view of who and what women are changed a fair amount. And according to Wikipedia he oversaw the original anime adaptation of Berserk, which I think shows how his vision of what Berserk was has changed over the course of ten years.

Hell, compare the Berserk prototype to the "real thing". I haven't read his other work, but think it would probably be a good idea for us to if we want more context for depictions of women in other work.

[Anonymouswizard]

I stopped watching the new anime shortly after the Berserker armour was introduced (there was just this episode I didn't like and I couldn't work up the excitement to watch it again ever week), but I have to say I hadn't noticed the misogyny. Or rather I had, but my knee jerk reaction was 'the world is misogynistic' rather than blaming the author. Partially because part of Gut's arc seemed to be growing out of his misogyny, so I assumed that Miura was trying to say it was bad.

I have to say that the arguments here have encouraged me to look at it more closely. I'm just grateful that this dark fantasy series doesn't kill of it's characters like livestock, except for the times where it does (I'm looking at you Eclipse).

[Prime32]

This some reason this rubs me up the wrong way. I can't imagine normal people really getting off on the rape/attempted rape in Berserk. That sounds to me like someone saying the daemonettes in Warhammer/40k are fetishized. Yes they are clearly have sexual characteristics, but are certainly not sexy. I don't think I can link a picture of one because of forum rules and directing someone to the right picture is difficult. As people tend to do, they do their own art and I think it loses the spirit of it. That reminds me of that one doujin artist who said that Berserk is one of the few manga he'll never draw porn of, because making the sex in Berserk actually sexy would be spitting in the face of its themes.

[Anonymouswizard]

That reminds me of that one doujin artist who said that Berserk is one of the few manga he'll never draw porn of, because making the sex in Berserk actually sexy would be spitting in the face of its themes.

This is true even when it's not rape. I don't care what people say, Guts and Casca is lovey as the really sweet scene it is (which is why I think the versions where the sex isn't shown actually work better). Especially when compared to Griffith's sex scene earlier, but it works because even though they have sex before and after it's entirely about the two of them bonding and coming to terms with their feelings. The fact that the scene also manages to be sweet when Guts completely puts his foot in his mouth and accidentally gives Casca the idea that he's going to be leaving her. It's like the one time in the series that the sex is for the right reasons and the right thing for the participants, making it sexy is still missing the point of it.

It was really that scene that made me love Berserk, because it made me realise that Guts is a broken man who desperately needs help, and actually manages to find a sense of stability and comfort before everything comes crashing down. If anything a lot of the heroes in this series are just as screwed up as the main villain (and I don't care that Griffith is cool and sexy, he's still majorly screwed up) and yet manage to believably be good people.