6-10 Level Polearm Build

[Implayingnude]

In my current group I don't expect to get past level 6-10, so my goal is to build around level 8 max and as close as possible to AL style.

So far this is what I've come up with, and was hoping to get some help on optimization.

We rolled for stats I got 15, 17, 16, 9, 12, 14 here's my thoughts.

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 9
Wis 12
Cha 14

2 Barb/6 Battle Master

V. Human

Level 1: Barb (Rage, Unarmored Defense) (PAM feat.)
Level 2: Fighter (Great Weapon Fighter)
Level 3: Fighter (Action Surge)
Level 4: Fighter (Battle Master) (Precision Strike, Riposte, and something else.)
Level 5: Fighter (GWM feat.)
Level 6: Fighter (Extra Attack)
Level 7: Fighter (Sentinal feat.)
Level 8: Barb (Reckless Attack)

Thoughts on this? I'm working out the numbers currently, but as far as build optimization does anyone see anything that I could improve or make better?

[djreynolds]

In my current group I don't expect to get past level 6-10, so my goal is to build around level 8 max and as close as possible to AL style.

So far this is what I've come up with, and was hoping to get some help on optimization.

We rolled for stats I got 15, 17, 16, 9, 12, 14 here's my thoughts.

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 9
Wis 12
Cha 14

2 Barb/6 Battle Master

V. Human

Level 1: Barb (Rage, Unarmored Defense) (PAM feat.)
Level 2: Fighter (Great Weapon Fighter)
Level 3: Fighter (Action Surge)
Level 4: Fighter (Battle Master) (Precision Strike, Riposte, and something else.)
Level 5: Fighter (GWM feat.)
Level 6: Fighter (Extra Attack)
Level 7: Fighter (Sentinal feat.)
Level 8: Barb (Reckless Attack)

Thoughts on this? I'm working out the numbers currently, but as far as build optimization does anyone see anything that I could improve or make better?

Looks good, but IMO, you want reckless attack before GWM. Advantage means you may not even need to use precision.

I would place that 18 in strength, just a +1 more on the die roll for GWM means less precision needed

And I would place a 14 in dex, medium armor, half-plate AC17, done

18/14/16/9/16/12 Wisdom saves are big

I like menacing, as it is based off your strength DC, hence an 18 instead of 16, almost better than the fear spell as you get it at 3rd level and its right after an attack

[prototype00]

In my current group I don't expect to get past level 6-10, so my goal is to build around level 8 max and as close as possible to AL style.

So far this is what I've come up with, and was hoping to get some help on optimization.

We rolled for stats I got 15, 17, 16, 9, 12, 14 here's my thoughts.

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 9
Wis 12
Cha 14

2 Barb/6 Battle Master

V. Human

Level 1: Barb (Rage, Unarmored Defense) (PAM feat.)
Level 2: Fighter (Great Weapon Fighter)
Level 3: Fighter (Action Surge)
Level 4: Fighter (Battle Master) (Precision Strike, Riposte, and something else.)
Level 5: Fighter (GWM feat.)
Level 6: Fighter (Extra Attack)
Level 7: Fighter (Sentinal feat.)
Level 8: Barb (Reckless Attack)

Thoughts on this? I'm working out the numbers currently, but as far as build optimization does anyone see anything that I could improve or make better?

If you want something more tank-like, there is always the board-and-quarterstaff dueling style.

prototype00

[Implayingnude]

Looks good, but IMO, you want reckless attack before GWM. Advantage means you may not even need to use precision.

I would place that 18 in strength, just a +1 more on the die roll for GWM means less precision needed

And I would place a 14 in dex, medium armor, half-plate AC17, done

18/14/16/9/16/12 Wisdom saves are big

I like menacing, as it is based off your strength DC, hence an 18 instead of 16, almost better than the fear spell as you get it at 3rd level and its right after an attack

The only problem that I see with this, is that I'm planning on wearing no armor for the Unarmored Defense. I'd have 17 AC from level 1, along with extra HP as I level into the higher levels. (1 Extra Damage and hit, isn't worth the extra HP in the long run to me. This helps from getting out right killed, I won't be Bear Totem until possibly level 9.

As far as going two levels of Barbarian first, that slows down my second feat by two levels being level six instead of five. That could possibly hurt me by a level, but would need some more insight on this and run through how badly. At least at level 1 Barbarian, I get higher AC, and also rage to reduce damage.

[djreynolds]

The only problem that I see with this, is that I'm planning on wearing no armor for the Unarmored Defense. I'd have 17 AC from level 1, along with extra HP as I level into the higher levels. (1 Extra Damage and hit, isn't worth the extra HP in the long run to me. This helps from getting out right killed, I won't be Bear Totem until possibly level 9.

As far as going two levels of Barbarian first, that slows down my second feat by two levels being level six instead of five. That could possibly hurt me by a level, but would need some more insight on this and run through how badly. At least at level 1 Barbarian, I get higher AC, and also rage to reduce damage.

I think getting reckless attack earlier, if you are playing from level 6 on is huge.

You basically rerolling every swipe of your great axe, advantage is roughly +5 average and this helps curb the -5 from GWM. That +10 extra damage at early levels will kill and give you another bonus action strike

Whether or not the +1 to hit is important, that's understandable but it might save you from using precision and give you more for riposte and say menacing or trip or cleave

Reckless attack and GWM are an awesome combination.

Its just advice from playing. But this will allow you to save battle master maneuvers if you are using GWM.

Good luck its still a very good build

[PeteNutButter]

Don't fall into the unarmored defense trap. It's taking too much from your character to try and keep your AC up. Just wear half plate.

An optimal arrangement of your stats would probably be more like: 18, 14, 16, 9, 16, 12.

Like the others say, I'd get reckless attack prior to fighter 6. Additionally, I'd find more value in a 20 str than sentinel. +1 to hit and damage is far more needed when you plan to be using GWM.

Even if you don't change a thing though, you'll likely be dealing more damage than any other PC.

[Implayingnude]

Don't fall into the unarmored defense trap. It's taking too much from your character to try and keep your AC up. Just wear half plate.

An optimal arrangement of your stats would probably be more like: 18, 14, 16, 9, 16, 12.

Like the others say, I'd get reckless attack prior to fighter 6. Additionally, I'd find more value in a 20 str than sentinel. +1 to hit and damage is far more needed when you plan to be using GWM.

Even if you don't change a thing though, you'll likely be dealing more damage than any other PC.

Thanks, I was actually thinking about dropping Sentinal for a possible increase. What's so bad about the unarmored defense trap? Was just wondering.

[bid]

Thanks, I was actually thinking about dropping Sentinal for a possible increase. What's so bad about the unarmored defense trap? Was just wondering.
Standard non-magical half-plate is 15+Dex ~ AC17
Point buy is usually 16 14 16 8 12 10 for unarmored AC15. 2 point behind.

Even at level 12, with Str20 + GWM, you still have AC15, 3-4 points behind a magical half-plate.


In your case, starting 16 16 18, you at least match the AC17 of a non-magical plate. But only because you didn't Str18 from the start. (and I suggest you take mariner style if you can go UA)

Your high stats allow you to pull it off. Even if you aren't taking the "perfect" path, you get point for style.

[PeteNutButter]

Standard non-magical half-plate is 15+Dex ~ AC17
Point buy is usually 16 14 16 8 12 10 for unarmored AC15. 2 point behind.

Even at level 12, with Str20 + GWM, you still have AC15, 3-4 points behind a magical half-plate.


In your case, starting 16 16 18, you at least match the AC17 of a non-magical plate. But only because you didn't Str18 from the start. (and I suggest you take mariner style if you can go UA)

Your high stats allow you to pull it off. Even if you aren't taking the "perfect" path, you get point for style.

Basically that ^.

You are sacrificing your best stat to boost your AC to what you would have with normal half plate. The only benefit is if you REALLY want to be good at stealth.

You could potentially keep boosting your defensive stats eventually getting your AC a point or two higher than nonmagical armor, also known as falling further into the trap... One or two points of AC on a recklessly attacking barbarian at the point in the game where foes have at least +10 to hit is objectively worse than half a dozen feats. With +10 to hit and advantage from your reckless, they will hit AC 17 91% of the time, AC 18 is 87%. It's just not worth it. Barbarians are there to tank the damage with resistance, not avoid it.

Also notice how my suggested stat allocation allowed me to spare a 16 for wisdom? That'll be far and away more beneficial when you start getting blasted by wisdom saves every other fight. Incidentally, resilient wisdom is one of those feats that's far better than +1 AC on a barbarian.:smallbiggrin:

[Implayingnude]

Wow thank you so much for the information, I completely understand why it's a trap now. I'm still looking at dropping Sentinal which possbily allows me to switch to a new race as well then, if there's no need for that extra feat right away, although a stat boost at level 6 would be nice too. But not having dark vision could be a pain, which could be easy to get from another race.

[PeteNutButter]

Wow thank you so much for the information, I completely understand why it's a trap now. I'm still looking at dropping Sentinal which possbily allows me to switch to a new race as well then, if there's no need for that extra feat right away, although a stat boost at level 6 would be nice too. But not having dark vision could be a pain, which could be easy to get from another race.

Stick with human. GWM is best when paired with a 20 str. PAM is best when paired with GWM. Human is the fastest way to get all 3.

Darkvision isn't important. Even races with it RAW should be making perception checks with disadvantage in darkness as it lets them treat darkness like dim light. What that means is in most cases having light is still desired, by every race. I'd only worry about darkvision if you intent to be the party scout.

[Implayingnude]

Stick with human. GWM is best when paired with a 20 str. PAM is best when paired with GWM. Human is the fastest way to get all 3.

Darkvision isn't important. Even races with it RAW should be making perception checks with disadvantage in darkness as it lets them treat darkness like dim light. What that means is in most cases having light is still desired, by every race. I'd only worry about darkvision if you intent to be the party scout.

Thanks, that early level feat also gives me a free +2 to a stat at level 6 then. I'll rush level 2 Barb for Reckless attack

[GlenSmash!]

I agree with all the good advice in this thread with regard to Reckless Attack, Medium Armor, Wisdom saves, and the Mariner Fighting Style. That's a really solid Barb/Fighter.

[Implayingnude]

I agree with all the good advice in this thread with regard to Reckless Attack, Medium Armor, Wisdom saves, and the Mariner Fighting Style. That's a really solid Barb/Fighter.

What's so good about Mariner Fighting Style?

[djreynolds]

Stick with human. GWM is best when paired with a 20 str. PAM is best when paired with GWM. Human is the fastest way to get all 3.

Darkvision isn't important. Even races with it RAW should be making perception checks with disadvantage in darkness as it lets them treat darkness like dim light. What that means is in most cases having light is still desired, by every race. I'd only worry about darkvision if you intent to be the party scout.


Thanks, that early level feat also gives me a free +2 to a stat at level 6 then. I'll rush level 2 Barb for Reckless attack

GWM and reckless attack.... is awesome.

I would even grab GWM at 1st level, only because it allows you the use of more weapons initially and then at 4th level fighter grab PAM

You will have lots of fun with this build.

Keep wisdom high and seriously consider resilient wisdom at some point if your character plays beyond 10th level

Just grab breast plate and live with an AC of 16. If your AC is astronomical, like an eldritch knight in full plate and shield and spamming the shield spell. No one will attack you. But a raging barbarian recklessly attacking with an AC of 16 is an agro magnet and you half all that damage. Put that fat cleric to work

Great build

[GlenSmash!]

What's so good about Mariner Fighting Style?

The same +1 AC as Defense as long as you're not wearing Heavy Armor plus a Climbing Speed and a Swim Speed. Also it works with Unarmored defense if you do decide to go that route.

Bug the big problem is that GWF is lackluster. I wouldn't call it a Trap Option, but an average of 1.8ish more damage per attack just doesn't excite me.

[Mikal]

I'd make one change if possible to the other posters replies, consider changing your fighting style to tunnel fighter.

Tunnel fighter is a better choice than mariner if you're playing tactically. While situational it will really boost your number of attacks up when that situation occurs especially if you go sentinel. Even without sentinel it's still useful if you can get two OAs when you activate it, vs spending your bonus action on the haft strike or hoping for crit/kill GWM attacks.

I would probably go like with this
Human- PAM
Barb 1 and 2
Fighter 1- tunnel fighting
Fighter 4- GWM or STR to 20 (if no magic weapons)
Fighter 6- the other level 4 option
Fighter 8- sentinel

[bid]

Bug the big problem is that GWF is lackluster. I wouldn't call it a Trap Option, but an average of 1.8ish more damage per attack just doesn't excite me.
It's less than that. maul gets 1.33 extra damage. (1d6 = 2/3, 1d12 = 5/6)

[Mister_Squinty]

It's less than that. maul gets 1.33 extra damage. (1d6 = 2/3, 1d12 = 5/6)

Given that Duelling style gives a flat +2 to damage, and allows a shield, what is the real selling point of GW? I haven't been able to find a great benefit for GWF over Duellist, especially given the Feat tax.

[PeteNutButter]

Given that Duelling style gives a flat +2 to damage, and allows a shield, what is the real selling point of GW? I haven't been able to find a great benefit for GWF over Duellist, especially given the Feat tax.

It's primarily due to the feat. Without the GWM feat, 2-handed weapon fighters would be a rarity (on optimal characters). With the feat, they do far more damage than anything else.

Odd to balance things around a feat, especially when feats are optional, but it is how it is.

[Mister_Squinty]

It's primarily due to the feat. Without the GWM feat, 2-handed weapon fighters would be a rarity (on optimal characters). With the feat, they do far more damage than anything else.

Odd to balance things around a feat, especially when feats are optional, but it is how it is.

Would Defense be the better fighting style at that point? Just spitballing here, but I'm not sure the +1.x damage is as good as a point of AC.

[PeteNutButter]

Would Defense be the better fighting style at that point? Just spitballing here, but I'm not sure the +1.x damage is as good as a point of AC.

Yes, most GWM builds go with defense, especially when the UA options aren't available.

[Asmotherion]

Here is how I build Polearm Gishes. It's an other philosophy, 'cause I always play casters (so in your example, I'd go Bear Totem Barbarian and then Eldritch Knight), but still packs a lot of damage, and maybe you could find it useful if you run out of rages? I just post it for referance (tuned up to be useful if you opt to take it):

Vhuman Feat: Spell Sniper for Booming Blade. It is an Attack Roll Cantrip, and the feed does not tell you a minimum range. It also does include a range (5 feet) wich means it profits from Spell Sniper, and you can apply it to the reach of your Pole Arm.

1st Feat: War Caster. Now you can use Oportunity Attacks with Booming Blade. That means that once the initial damage from running away(?) has trigered, you can attack once more, damage more with the full power of BB, and if they continue running, re-take the extra damage... Or be locked down in position as if you had the PAM+Sentinel Feat Chain, aka either more damage and a potential kill, or they stay within reach and eventually get hit again. Win Win situation for you.

2nd Feat: PAM. Finally, not only when they leave your reach, but also when they approach, you can strike them with your booming polearm. I usually couple that with Sorcerer levels, and double the double range of spell sniper, (on a very willing DM) telling that I unleash the energy on my weapon as a reaction. Some DMs roll with it, some others might not.

There you go. I could tinker a bit more with some Warlock levels for Armor of Agathys and how good I find it on a Bear Totem Barbarian, but it goes way off topic :P

So, enjoy the build, and I understand it's probably not what you're looking for as from your post you look like you're trying to make a pure melee build, and I'm more of a Gish-Creator :P I just posted it for referance in case it was usefull, understanding it might not be. Have a nice day. :)

[Mister_Squinty]

1st Feat: War Caster. Now you can use Oportunity Attacks with Booming Blade. That means that once the initial damage from running away(?) has trigered, you can attack once more, damage more with the full power of BB, and if they continue running, re-take the extra damage... Or be locked down in position as if you had the PAM+Sentinel Feat Chain, aka either more damage and a potential kill, or they stay within reach and eventually get hit again. Win Win situation for you.

2nd Feat: PAM. Finally, not only when they leave your reach, but also when they approach, you can strike them with your booming polearm. I usually couple that with Sorcerer levels, and double the double range of spell sniper, (on a very willing DM) telling that I unleash the energy on my weapon as a reaction. Some DMs roll with it, some others might not.



Would it make sense to take PAM before War Caster, to give you the incoming opportunity attack earlier? Even without the ability to cantrip the opp.atk, it seems that and the extra attack would be more useful early on.

[Mikal]

Would Defense be the better fighting style at that point? Just spitballing here, but I'm not sure the +1.x damage is as good as a point of AC.

Tunnel fighting style would be better if you wanted to use UA. Otherwise, defensive is the go-to for most GWM users.


Would it make sense to take PAM before War Caster, to give you the incoming opportunity attack earlier? Even without the ability to cantrip the opp.atk, it seems that and the extra attack would be more useful early on.

I'd actually ignore War Caster, even as a gish. Sentinel gives you a lot more benefits regarding reaction uses IMO, and combined with PAM it stops movement to 0 so they can't melee you.

Booming Blade might make them think about the movement, but if they have resistance or immunity to damage you're wasting it.

[bid]

Vhuman Feat: Spell Sniper for Booming Blade.
Neither barbarian nor EK can cast spells at level 1.

[Implayingnude]

I'm wondering if I should try to squeeze three feats into this build, and if not which ones should I take instead? PAM + Sentinel or GWF + PAM. I haven't thought it out completely to optimise it. But I'm set on 2 Barb/ 6 Fighter.

Also on that note if I only need two feats, would it be better to go with another race? I could start with 20 strength, if I took Half-orc plus a few other advantages such as dark vision and extra crit dice.

[Spacehamster]

In my current group I don't expect to get past level 6-10, so my goal is to build around level 8 max and as close as possible to AL style.

So far this is what I've come up with, and was hoping to get some help on optimization.

We rolled for stats I got 15, 17, 16, 9, 12, 14 here's my thoughts.

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 9
Wis 12
Cha 14

2 Barb/6 Battle Master

V. Human

Level 1: Barb (Rage, Unarmored Defense) (PAM feat.)
Level 2: Fighter (Great Weapon Fighter)
Level 3: Fighter (Action Surge)
Level 4: Fighter (Battle Master) (Precision Strike, Riposte, and something else.)
Level 5: Fighter (GWM feat.)
Level 6: Fighter (Extra Attack)
Level 7: Fighter (Sentinal feat.)
Level 8: Barb (Reckless Attack)

Thoughts on this? I'm working out the numbers currently, but as far as build optimization does anyone see anything that I could improve or make better?

I would go mariner instead of great weapon fighter, +1AC while wearing no armor-medium armor + you get your movement speed while swimming and climbing. :)

[Implayingnude]

I'm wondering if I should try to squeeze three feats into this build, and if not which ones should I take instead? PAM + Sentinel or GWF + PAM. I haven't thought it out completely to optimise it. But I'm set on 2 Barb/ 6 Fighter.

Also on that note if I only need two feats, would it be better to go with another race? I could start with 20 strength, if I took Half-orc plus a few other advantages such as dark vision and extra crit dice.

Now that I think about it, my group plays twice per month three times on a good month, and once on bad months. The sessions can last anywhere from 4-8 or so hours, and I don't expect us to play more than a year if we're lucky.

I think it might be more realistic to shoot for level 4-8 and eight being absolute end game if we played a lot more 8h sessions. So by starting another race, I could be further slowing optimization as I wouldn't even get a feat until level 4 or 5, if I dipped one level for rage level one.

[Asmotherion]

Tunnel fighting style would be better if you wanted to use UA. Otherwise, defensive is the go-to for most GWM users.



I'd actually ignore War Caster, even as a gish. Sentinel gives you a lot more benefits regarding reaction uses IMO, and combined with PAM it stops movement to 0 so they can't melee you.

Booming Blade might make them think about the movement, but if they have resistance or immunity to damage you're wasting it.
Well, it's actually DM domain, but resistance/imunity to thunder damage is quite rare. Also, blocking movement (aka not fleeing) OR causing extra damage to a fleeing foe from level 1 seems like a nice theme of "nobody gets away from me", and it's very cheap, since it's easy to pull since level 1 with a Vhuman. I understand not everyone will like it though, I just include it as how I view my "perfect idea of a gish". Eventually you strike, they run, and strike again, since they are once again withing reach (in the 10 feet reach). If they are foolish enough to run again, the secondary damage triggers again (depends on how the DM handles this things, and the creature he plays), and boom, a lot of damage in the opponent's face. You howeven neet to be able to use a cantrip as an opportunity attack for this, which is why I like War caster. :P


Neither barbarian nor EK can cast spells at level 1.
Spell sniper gives a bonus attack roll cantrip on top of the other benefits. Using this, he can grab Booming blade by Level 1, which is the idea of the build.

[bid]

Spell sniper gives a bonus attack roll cantrip on top of the other benefits. Using this, he can grab Booming blade by Level 1, which is the idea of the build.
The feat has a prequisite.