Dnd 3.5 can a ghost posses undead? (solved!)

[Savarin]

Hello I was wondering if you can make a ghost possess his own body after he dies? Because I was planning on something like that happening in one of my campaigns.

A knight gets turned into an undead and is forced to attack his lord/lady. I wanted either his ghost to posses his body then fight under him or her like he normally did. Either by possessing it or because his body refused to break his code of honor and protect his lord/lady. Ik I can force it to work because a dm can do whatever they want but I’m still curious if it wasn’t Dm forced if it was possible.

[KillianHawkeye]

What game system are you using?

[Savarin]

What game system are you using?

3.5 dnd is the system.

[JNAProductions]

3.5 dnd is the system.

I'd suggest posting this to the 3.5 forum, then. You'll get better answers there.

You can report your own post and ask for it to be moved, if you like.

[Savarin]

I'd suggest posting this to the 3.5 forum, then. You'll get better answers there.

You can report your own post and ask for it to be moved, if you like.

Ah I thought this would have been a better place lol. And your everywhere :o

[Vitruviansquid]

1. Maybe just put your question in the subject line, so people can see if they are interested in or capable of answering your question before clicking it.

2. Always put which game or setting you are playing if you have a game or setting specific question.


In the absence of a specific rule which you might find in the PHB or Monster Manual, the DM tends to make an arbitrary ruling.

[Savarin]

1. Maybe just put your question in the subject line, so people can see if they are interested in or capable of answering your question before clicking it.

2. Always put which game or setting you are playing if you have a game or setting specific question.


In the absence of a specific rule which you might find in the PHB or Monster Manual, the DM tends to make an arbitrary ruling.

That’s what I thought I had to do. But wanted to see if it was possible without me making it and changed the title

[FreddyNoNose]

Ah I thought this would have been a better place
Really?...................

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay, now I can try to answer the question.



So in 3.5, a ghost uses its Malevolence ability to "possess" people. Malevolence requires the target to be a creature on the material plane, so it cannot use this to re-inhabit its own corpse. There's no requirement that it be a living creature, so an undead or a construct is fair game, but a corpse is not considered a creature by the game rules.

But it sounds almost like you're planning a situation where a ghost is trying to possess the animated remains of his former body? That shouldn't be possible, because one person shouldn't be able to become two different kinds of undead at the same time. Even unintelligent undead like skeletons and zombies essentially trap the soul within the husk of their former selves, which we know because a person cannot be raised or resurrected while an undead version of them exists (not even with true resurrection which can be done without access to the body).

[Blue Jay]

Hello I was wondering if you can make a ghost possess his own body after he dies? Because I was planning on something like that happening in one of my campaigns.

A knight gets turned into an undead and is forced to attack his lord/lady. I wanted either his ghost to posses his body then fight under him or her like he normally did. Either by possessing it or because his body refused to break his code of honor and protect his lord/lady. Ik I can force it to work because a dm can do whatever they want but I’m still curious if it wasn’t Dm forced if it was possible.

If you're familiar with the Ghostwalk setting, there's a ghost feat called "Corpse Malevolence," which lets a ghost temporarily possess a dead body. That could probably work, although you take some ability - score penalties.

[Savarin]

I was planning on something along the lines as he regains some control over his body not to kill someone and follow his knightly code. I thought saying ghost might have made it clearer. Idk if this explanation helped?

[ayvango]

But it sounds almost like you're planning a situation where a ghost is trying to possess the animated remains of his former body? That shouldn't be possible, because one person shouldn't be able to become two different kinds of undead at the same time.
What if cast animate object instead of animate dead?

[The Viscount]

While ghosts are incapable of possessing corpses, there does exist a monster that can.

The Bhut is another incorporeal undead from Fiend Folio that can possess the corpse of any humanoid, at which point it acts like a modified zombie.

[JNAProductions]

While ghosts are incapable of possessing corpses, there does exist a monster that can.

The Bhut is another incorporeal undead from Fiend Folio that can possess the corpse of any humanoid, at which point it acts like a modified zombie.

Is it wrong that I giggled when I read that name?

[KillianHawkeye]

What if cast animate object instead of animate dead?

Sure, that's a totally different process.

[rferries]

If you're a ghost with the telekinesis power, you could use it to move your corpse via the sustained thrust option. If your DM is generous you could even move the corpse's legs & arms such that it appears to be walking, and manifest in the same space so that your voice emanates from the corpse.

[Crake]

But it sounds almost like you're planning a situation where a ghost is trying to possess the animated remains of his former body? That shouldn't be possible, because one person shouldn't be able to become two different kinds of undead at the same time. Even unintelligent undead like skeletons and zombies essentially trap the soul within the husk of their former selves, which we know because a person cannot be raised or resurrected while an undead version of them exists (not even with true resurrection which can be done without access to the body).

Are you sure about that? There's nothing stopping you from being resurrected into a new body, then having your old body become animated by the animate dead spell, since your old corpse is a valid target for animate dead. That also doesn't make much sense when you consider that a soul could be sent to hell, trapped there, and then centuries later their body turned into a zombie or skeleton, but their soul is most certainly trapped in hell, probably transformed into a lemure by that point.

[ShurikVch]

a corpse is not considered a creature by the game rules.It's a common misconception: corpse is a creature with the Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) condition
Otherwise, Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) and Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) spells wouldn't work:
Target: Dead creature touchedIIRR, "corpses are objects" was said in FAQ, but not in any real RAW


one person shouldn't be able to become two different kinds of undead at the same timePutrefaction spell (Dragon #300):
When the victim dies, his body immediately animates as a zombie under the control of the caster. Additionally, the victim's soul transforms into a ghost that cannot move more than 30 feet from the caster.

[Pleh]

It's a common misconception: corpse is a creature with the Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) condition
Otherwise, Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) and Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) spells wouldn't work:IIRR, "corpses are objects" was said in FAQ, but not in any real RAW

That's really cool and I had never heard that argument before.

It reminds me of similar arguments about monks, unarmed strikes, flurry of blows, and two weapon fighting (essentially FAQ says FoB and TWF can stack, taking all related penalties, but RAW says impossible).

I guess what I'm trying to say here in this instance is:

Corpses are creatures with the Dead condition (as per RAW) but, like undead, they are functionally treated as objects when interacted with.

Similar to how an Improved UAS (monk or feat) is "treated as" a manufactured weapon for spells that affect such weapons, corpses are definitvely creatures that are "treated as" objects (particularly when they aren't being targeted by a spell that interacts with their Dead condition).

What do you think?

[KillianHawkeye]

Looks like I'm wrong about everything! :smallsigh::smallsigh:

[XionUnborn01]

I was planning on something along the lines as he regains some control over his body not to kill someone and follow his knightly code. I thought saying ghost might have made it clearer. Idk if this explanation helped?

Wait a second here. So he's not risen as a ghost you're saying that basically his soul from the afterlife uses Willpower (tm) to control his body to not kill? If that's the case, the rules don't really cover that so it's up to you.

[atemu1234]

If you're a ghost with the telekinesis power, you could use it to move your corpse via the sustained thrust option. If your DM is generous you could even move the corpse's legs & arms such that it appears to be walking, and manifest in the same space so that your voice emanates from the corpse.

So... we would have the a corpse marionette?

[Savarin]

Wait a second here. So he's not risen as a ghost you're saying that basically his soul from the afterlife uses Willpower (tm) to control his body to not kill? If that's the case, the rules don't really cover that so it's up to you.

Ah okay just was seeing if there was a way without Dm power but thank you for looking :)

[Zanos]

So in 3.5, a ghost uses its Malevolence ability to "possess" people. Malevolence requires the target to be a creature on the material plane, so it cannot use this to re-inhabit its own corpse. There's no requirement that it be a living creature, so an undead or a construct is fair game, but a corpse is not considered a creature by the game rules.
Only intelligent undead are fair game. Malevolence references magic jar, which allows you to sense and attack "life forces", and then specifies that only intelligent undead have these.


But it sounds almost like you're planning a situation where a ghost is trying to possess the animated remains of his former body? That shouldn't be possible, because one person shouldn't be able to become two different kinds of undead at the same time. Even unintelligent undead like skeletons and zombies essentially trap the soul within the husk of their former selves, which we know because a person cannot be raised or resurrected while an undead version of them exists (not even with true resurrection which can be done without access to the body).
You can't resurrect someone who had an undead made out of them, but nothing stops you from turning the same person into a ghost, skin kite, skulking cyst, skeleton, crawling claw, etc. at the same time.


It's a common misconception: corpse is a creature with the Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) condition
Otherwise, Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) and Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) spells wouldn't work:IIRR, "corpses are objects" was said in FAQ, but not in any real RAW
Gentle Repose has a save line of "Will negates (Object)" and a target of "Corpse touched". The game specifically defines the "(object)" save tag as being a part of a spell that can be cast on objects. So corpses are objects as well as dead creatures.

[ShurikVch]

Gentle Repose has a save line of "Will negates (Object)" and a target of "Corpse touched". The game specifically defines the "(object)" save tag as being a part of a spell that can be cast on objects. So corpses are objects as well as dead creatures.Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#savingThrows):
Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they always are affected by spells. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).

Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + one-half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.What kind of caster will "attend" the corpse so allow it to make a save?
Thus, excluding very rare cases of magical corpses, this line is mostly do absolutely nothing
The only exception I can see: trees are objects; dead trees are dead objects... :smallwink:

[Zanos]

Wrong section.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow


(object)
The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended...

[ShurikVch]

Animate Objects doesn't have the (object) tag; your argument is invalid

[Zanos]

Animate Objects is Save: None.

[ShurikVch]

Animate Objects is Save: None.But should be "None (object)"

[Zanos]

But should be "None (object)"
It doesn't say that ONLY spells with (object) can be cast on objects, just that ones with it can be.

As far as I've seen Save: None spells never have save tags. Because they have no save. Weird how that works.

[ShurikVch]

It doesn't say that ONLY spells with (object) can be cast on objects, just that ones with it can be.Then what's the point?

As far as I've seen Save: None spells never have save tags. Because they have no save. Weird how that works.Actually, there are almost twenty different spells with "none (object)" in the "Save" line.
Core example is Silence; from other well-known spells - Mighty Wallop.

[Savarin]

Lol I knew posting here was a good idea :) learned a bunch of new stuff! Ty everyone for your time :)

[mattie_p]

I was talking about corpses as objects or creatures in another thread but the interesting part seems to be continuing here, so I'll just quote myself.


To that reference, **EDIT: This thread ** I will state that "a dead creature" is a particular kind of object. Gentle repose targets a "corpse touched" and further states "You preserve the remains of a dead creature so that they do not decay."

The creature is not the target, just the corpse. The saving throw line includes (object), meaning it can be cast on an object. The only type of object which would be a useful target is one which is a corpse. The soul isn't decaying anyway.

Likewise raise dead and resurrection do not offer a save. The creature in it's afterlife must be willing. (This is why true resurrection can still function without a body). The dead condition even states that the soul has left it's body, often to become a petitioner depending on the cosmology of the setting.

Also ( premising this question upon the assumption that a corpse is a dead creature) at what point is a portion of the corpse no longer the creature and is only an object? Is the skin of a creature that has been crafted into leather armor a creature or an object? Is a rasher of bacon an object? For that matter, is a fingernail clipping an object? Is the subject of a reincarnation spell a different creature from what it was before? After all, no portion of the old body is used to make the new body.

This topic could probably use further discussion but I'm confident of the RAW in this matter.

A couple extra nuggets. Inherent bonuses are part of the creature, not the body alone, and persist through true resurrection or reincarnation or even polymorph.