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Penelomeeg
2017-10-08, 12:57 PM
My real life group has been getting increasingly more comfortable and understanding with each other lately. I'm thinking of bringing it up to my GM that my character isn't fully straight. The character is pansexual but has a hedonistic streak (throws coins to the bards to request a song in the tavern, always asks for a bottle of the "good stuff") and I'm thinking I may habe her occasionally flirt and try to charm people she finds attractive (when appropriate, since she's rather business minded). For instance I definitely intend to have her half seriously flirt with our elf bard while also trying to "show him up" constantly. Which the player did to my last charactet so I know he'd have no issues with that.

However I want to show the other side of her obviously having a very fluid and open sexuality. Which also ties into her being raised in the Underdark where sexuality is probably "what matron wants, matron gets".

I don't intend to do anything gross or explicit or make this the MAIN POINT about the character. I just want advice on how to approach this idea and theme in a way that eases it in and doesn't cause any awkwardness.

FreddyNoNose
2017-10-08, 02:36 PM
Are you doing it to make a point or a statement?

Penelomeeg
2017-10-08, 02:44 PM
Uhm not really, I don't really know what point or statement having my character potentially be interested in an NPC that could be female makes

Vitruviansquid
2017-10-08, 02:46 PM
Given what you say about the situation, it is my understanding that you are currently Pulling It Off (tm), but may later make it awkward if you un-subtley announce to the table that your character is (any kind of)sexual and it should be a big deal to everyone at the table.

Scripten
2017-10-08, 02:52 PM
Are you doing it to make a point or a statement?

Even if she were, would it matter? It is her character after all. Maybe the character finds their sexuality to be important? Not really the place to be contesting that.

Anyway, on topic, I would advise the following, just because it's worked out well for me as both a player and DM:

1) Introduce the character's sexuality in appropriate circumstances. Few character traits are more immersion-breaking than hedonism when overused. If the situation calls for romancing an NPC, then by all means, go for it, but forcing it just derails the game and can be awkward.

2) Either read the room if you know your fellow players (and DM) well or just plain ask OOC if anyone is uncomfortable with roleplay that is romantic or sexual in nature, before proceeding. Stay well within the lines of what people say is comfortable for them rather than pushing boundaries.

ExLibrisMortis
2017-10-08, 03:16 PM
It sounds to me like you're on the right track. If you (usually) only flirt when appropriate and beneficial, only with players who have shown to be okay with it, and not as main point of the character, it will come off as just a character trait that naturally expresses itself.

I don't think you need to inform your DM/the table about what you're going for, unless you want to 'conspire' with the DM to dramatically reveal some new facet of your character (such as the dark side of their sexuality, as you mention).

Anymage
2017-10-08, 03:26 PM
Even if she were, would it matter? It is her character after all. Maybe the character finds their sexuality to be important? Not really the place to be contesting that.

I'm someone who likes to give my PCs a lot of downtime between adventures, and lets the player have a lot of control over what happens in their character's non-adventuring life. That said, too much focus on things like gender or sexuality issues will make me wary that they'll try imposing heavy drama (usually inspired by the player's personal bugaboos) into what I was hoping to be uncomplicated dragonslaying heroics. Ditto if the player seems to be making a thinly veiled political reference.

That said, being an incorrigible flirt is a pretty minor character trait. Even if you're making passes at both/any/all genders.

Geddy2112
2017-10-08, 03:54 PM
Seconding others here.

Make sure you do it in a natural setting, and don't ham fist it. If you go up to every NPC you see and start taking your clothing off, that is a bit much. But flirting with people here and there is fine.

Also, know the group. Some players and DM's might be uneasy at the sight of flirting, where other groups might be okay with getting hot and heavy. It is generally best to handwave sexual activity.

Psyren
2017-10-08, 04:14 PM
Sounds good. The only potentially problematic item I see is the "what matron wants, matron gets" line. How aggressive do you plan to be in your advances?

Penelomeeg
2017-10-08, 04:23 PM
Sounds good. The only potentially problematic item I see is the "what matron wants, matron gets" line. How aggressive do you plan to be in your advances?

Oh this wasn't a reference to the characters behavior! But rather the enviornment she was raised in. More implying that no one is going to tell drow matrons and their houses who they can or can't hook up with so she hasn't been exposed to rigid sexuality expectations culturally.

I think I simply worded that badly.

Mechalich
2017-10-08, 04:52 PM
Oh this wasn't a reference to the characters behavior! But rather the enviornment she was raised in. More implying that no one is going to tell drow matrons and their houses who they can or can't hook up with so she hasn't been exposed to rigid sexuality expectations culturally.


Along these lines, you should check with your GM to determine exactly what the cultural expectations regarding sexual orientation are in the current environment. Most D&D and other fantasy game settings handwave a fairly modern level of gender equality into being and it is probable that in such cases a GM would likely be willing to handwave similar levels of acceptance of modern treatment of orientation issues, but then again maybe not. Historically acceptance/rejection of orientations outside of strict heterosexuality has varied widely and the impact that such expectations has had on people with those traits have varied accordingly.

MarkVIIIMarc
2017-10-08, 09:31 PM
It may or may not be a big deal depending on your group. If you play with people who are not open minded that way there could be conflict. Otherwise folks may shrug it off.

My female elf bard said something like "I don't fool with boys, get pregnant and I have a century of child raising to do." My group is pretty laid back. No one did more than chuckle.

Nifft
2017-10-08, 09:35 PM
In my experience, this will make the other players very uncomfortable: "My character is interested in sex."

Past that, the specific type of sex is basically irrelevant. Sexuality at all is the biggest hurtle I've seen.

lunaticfringe
2017-10-08, 09:40 PM
I agree with giving the DM a heads up if you want to start flirting or dating npcs. We are the NPCs sometimes I'm in no mood, It gets tedious, or squick.

JusticeZero
2017-10-09, 02:02 AM
I'm going to be the contrarian here and say that you are probably overthinking this. One, female sexuality isn't anywhere near as policed as male sexuality, and two, I am not seeing a lot that indicates that this stuff is very meaningful in game. I mean, female character flirts a bit with an NPC without going into any depth, at the most "We're going back to my room" when asked where people are at that time, later you shrug it off saying "You thought she was cute too" and go back to discussing how to overthrow the Dark One of Darkity Darkness. That's practically G rated.

Joe the Rat
2017-10-09, 08:54 AM
What adding sex and sexuality does is going to be a matter of the group, and a matter of the game. Handled right, this can add a bit of color, or humor (particularly the rivalry department) to the game. Handled badly, it makes things weird and uncomfortable. Since it sounds like you've got some standard tropes (c.f. bards), you're just adding another angle. Unless the players are particularly... particular, this should be non issue.


Sounds good. The only potentially problematic item I see is the "what matron wants, matron gets" line. How aggressive do you plan to be in your advances?
What, and pass up on a Damn Yankees reference? It should totally come up in conversation at some point...

LibraryOgre
2017-10-09, 12:02 PM
Simplest method? Mention a previous girlfriend in a context where appropriate. Personally, I'd simply go with "I've never assumed nor implied my character was strictly hetero" and more or less handwave the question of gender in potential partners. As with most things related to romance in games, procede with an eye towards the comfort of everyone else... but, personally, I'd be uncomfortable gaming with a group that was fine with hetero relationships, but had problems with non-hetero relationships.

Tinkerer
2017-10-09, 12:51 PM
When I've been in this situation I found it coming up about once per arc (or once every 3 months or so) was about the proper duration of time, circumstances depending. My first character of that type was... technically asexual I guess? They had undergone the training to be a courtesan and had succeeded with flying colours however they themselves did not have any sexual feelings whatsoever. They simply viewed it as a job the same as being a mechanic or a florist. So when the opportunity of a seduction attempt came up they were always the first in line metaphorically cracking their knuckles and saying "I got this".

It really isn't difficult to keep it from being creepy and inappropriate as long as you take no for an answer. Seriously it is rather rare for this character type to go over poorly as long as you keep that one piece of information in mind. Take a look at the many, many, many examples of this going poorly and you will find that virtually all of those did not follow that rule. Of the remainder that didn't work they generally brought it up too often, trying to work it into every conversation with a new NPC. The absolute max I would have to say is once per session but that is a rare type of campaign, more likely the aforementioned once per arc.

Trampaige
2017-10-09, 02:58 PM
Show, don't tell.

If a opportunity comes up, roleplay it out. Just like your character would live it. No need to tell the table, "by the way, my character is pan." Show them. It's probably going to be a very minimal amount of your npc interactions in a D&D game. Just check with the DM to make sure he doesn't have some crazy homophobic death penalty in place. Get shot down by the same barmaid as every other PC.

icefractal
2017-10-09, 03:23 PM
Historically acceptance/rejection of orientations outside of strict heterosexuality has varied widely and the impact that such expectations has had on people with those traits have varied accordingly.Historically, there weren't multiple sapient tool-using species around either. 😝

(Sorry, pet peeve; it's fine if people want to go 'generic pastiche', but when you do start talking about historically accurate, you really need to take into account the /massive/ differences a D&D world has from ours)

Segev
2017-10-09, 05:30 PM
Let's turn the question around: If the GM, the target PC's player, or any other player at the table or their PC expresses discomfort, disgust, disdain, or any other negative emotion or reaction towards your character's behavior, sexuality, sexual promiscuity, or sexual identity, or sexual preferences, how will you feel about it?

If you will be horribly offended and outraged that they would express a view - in or out of character - which did not align with yours or what you feel is acceptable, then you probably shouldn't broach these waters. If, on the other hand, you can accept it if people don't share your views on the subject, go ahead and try it out. It is up to you and your table how far you push it, though obviously deliberately making others uncomfortable is wrong on BOTH sides of a situation. The neutral action is to leave it (even heterosexual romance/sexcapades) out, as that's not the point of the game. (At least, that's the impression I got from your post.) If things become uncomfortable at the table, being willing to dial it back to leaving it out is probably best.

But just be wary of your own feelings on the matter. I recently experienced somebody injecting their preferences into a game and being horrifically offended that my character was naïve and not up on popular real-world identity politics and political correctness. Deliberately injecting something potentially controversial and then being irate that not everybody plays it the way you want them to is uncool.

Coidzor
2017-10-09, 06:21 PM
Even if she were, would it matter?

It certainly could.

We're there to play, not sit through someone getting up on their soapbox about a real world political and social issue (the view and treatment and place of LGBTA+ individuals and groups in society) when we're all already accepting and don't need a lecture.

Or if even one of the people there has strong negative sentiments towards LGBTA+ people, then it starts an altercation in the middle of time that was supposed to be spent playing a game together and having fun.

Plus, getting preachy can be grating regardless.

So, yes, there are many ways and reasons for implementing it that would be bad. Passive aggressively needling a fellow player whom one has an out of character beef with isn't good, regardless of what kinds of beliefs they have.

Thankfully none of that seems like it is in play in the present circumstances.


1) Introduce the character's sexuality in appropriate circumstances. Few character traits are more immersion-breaking than hedonism when overused. If the situation calls for romancing an NPC, then by all means, go for it, but forcing it just derails the game and can be awkward.

2) Either read the room if you know your fellow players (and DM) well or just plain ask OOC if anyone is uncomfortable with roleplay that is romantic or sexual in nature, before proceeding. Stay well within the lines of what people say is comfortable for them rather than pushing boundaries.

Pretty solid.

Mechalich
2017-10-09, 08:48 PM
Historically, there weren't multiple sapient tool-using species around either. ��

(Sorry, pet peeve; it's fine if people want to go 'generic pastiche', but when you do start talking about historically accurate, you really need to take into account the /massive/ differences a D&D world has from ours)

The point was, that it is very possible to draw up a historical parallel where a pansexual orientation would be considered acceptable - Ancient Greece for example - whereas it is comparatively much more difficult to find a pre-industrial historical period where there was anything resembling gender equality.

Yes, well-built D&D worlds have massive differences from our own. Guess what, the overwhelming majority of D&D worlds - including all of the official ones - are not well-built. Most settings are 'Not Medieval Europe' with a fantasy gloss, so historical comparisons remain relevant.

Penelomeeg
2017-10-09, 10:46 PM
Let's turn the question around: If the GM, the target PC's player, or any other player at the table or their PC expresses discomfort, disgust, disdain, or any other negative emotion or reaction towards your character's behavior, sexuality, sexual promiscuity, or sexual identity, or sexual preferences, how will you feel about it?

If you will be horribly offended and outraged that they would express a view - in or out of character - which did not align with yours or what you feel is acceptable, then you probably shouldn't broach these waters. If, on the other hand, you can accept it if people don't share your views on the subject, go ahead and try it out. It is up to you and your table how far you push it, though obviously deliberately making others uncomfortable is wrong on BOTH sides of a situation. The neutral action is to leave it (even heterosexual romance/sexcapades) out, as that's not the point of the game. (At least, that's the impression I got from your post.) If things become uncomfortable at the table, being willing to dial it back to leaving it out is probably best.

But just be wary of your own feelings on the matter. I recently experienced somebody injecting their preferences into a game and being horrifically offended that my character was naïve and not up on popular real-world identity politics and political correctness. Deliberately injecting something potentially controversial and then being irate that not everybody plays it the way you want them to is uncool.

If I found out a member of the group shared homophobic views OOC tbh I would rather leave the group peacefully altogether without making any sort of scene and find a new group. IC as a character thing but I know the person is just playing a role, I wouldn't care so much OOC and probably role with it IC as a cool story angle.

Holding those views OOC doesn't bother me because I can't handle views different from my own so to speak, but because I'm actually gay and would no longer feel welcome in that group enviornment, which is a big part of the experience for me. Because I like to feel like we're friends at the end of the day at the table and look forward to the next session with the people as much as the characters. Which honestly I would rather learn the truth of that early on than find out from an off hand comment latter on when I'm invested in the group/story. Which I have had happened. Thankfully everyone at the table seems to have no issue as far as I can tell (including a father and 15 year old son who laughed when a friend I brought with me mentioned the time I kissed my gf at a pride parade in front of prostestors). Which is why I'm breaching the thought of playing a non straight character in the first place.

The campaign is very story and character driven with a lot of roleplay heavy interactions. In my experience things like character relationships whether they're familial, platonic, or romantic end up in the spotlight at one point or another, and if that last one happens with my character I want to feel secure and true to the character in doing so.

rferries
2017-10-10, 12:12 AM
Sounds like your game is RP-heavy, in which case feel free to go wild (though maybe tone it down if none of the other PCs are particularly lusty, just to avoid being a stage-hog). Otherwise, the examples you cited (hitting on the occasional barmaid between quests) should be fine.

Mordaedil
2017-10-10, 01:02 AM
I'm someone who likes to give my PCs a lot of downtime between adventures, and lets the player have a lot of control over what happens in their character's non-adventuring life. That said, too much focus on things like gender or sexuality issues will make me wary that they'll try imposing heavy drama (usually inspired by the player's personal bugaboos) into what I was hoping to be uncomplicated dragonslaying heroics. Ditto if the player seems to be making a thinly veiled political reference.

That said, being an incorrigible flirt is a pretty minor character trait. Even if you're making passes at both/any/all genders.

I don't disagree with your point here or anything. But even as a straight white man, I find it incredibly sad that love is made a political issue, when it is a human thing.

I think the best way to handle this is to treat it as normally as anything else about your character, like her favorite food or whatever her favorite color is. I think the most political you should get with it is essentially something like Romeo and Juliet, but if it was Rita and Juliet instead.

Anymage
2017-10-10, 02:10 AM
Simplest method? Mention a previous girlfriend in a context where appropriate. Personally, I'd simply go with "I've never assumed nor implied my character was strictly hetero" and more or less handwave the question of gender in potential partners. As with most things related to romance in games, procede with an eye towards the comfort of everyone else... but, personally, I'd be uncomfortable gaming with a group that was fine with hetero relationships, but had problems with non-hetero relationships.

Tangential, but am I the only person who's bugged by how Haley does this? A bit because her bi experimenting is safely in her past, where she never so much acknowledges the attractiveness of anyone other than her hetero partner. A bit because Elan never tried saving princes to see how it went, Belkar never made a pretty boy swoon when there were no handy females around, and really I can't remember the last named LGBT+ male character in the strip. Bisexuality as a way to make a female seem more adventurous in a way that will never interfere with an existing hetero relationship is a rather annoying trope.


Yes, well-built D&D worlds have massive differences from our own. Guess what, the overwhelming majority of D&D worlds - including all of the official ones - are not well-built. Most settings are 'Not Medieval Europe' with a fantasy gloss, so historical comparisons remain relevant.

In real-life medieval europe, people were painfully conscious of their place in the social ladder. And the church was the major institution of the day. Yet strangely, I've experienced very few PCs who roleplayed such fervent devotion to god, king, and country.

Beneath the window dressing of kings and knights and whatnot, D&D settings are a pastiche of all eras up to and including modern. Focusing on the grittier parts just to be edgy is a pretty solid red flag.

Knaight
2017-10-10, 03:44 AM
In real-life medieval europe, people were painfully conscious of their place in the social ladder. And the church was the major institution of the day. Yet strangely, I've experienced very few PCs who roleplayed such fervent devotion to god, king, and country.

The whole D&D pantheon is roughly the least medieval thing available, but much of the rest is a bit more flexible than it's being depicted here - particularly in terms of devotion to country. That's more of a very late medieval to early modern thing, and even then nationality was so dramatically dwarfed by class in importance.

The Extinguisher
2017-10-10, 07:42 AM
The whole D&D pantheon is roughly the least medieval thing available, but much of the rest is a bit more flexible than it's being depicted here - particularly in terms of devotion to country. That's more of a very late medieval to early modern thing, and even then nationality was so dramatically dwarfed by class in importance.

The whole of D&D is the least medieval thing. I don't understand why people are so able to accept fantasy when it comes to magic, combat, economics, other species, lifespans, mortality, politics, class and so much more, but insist things must be "realistic" when it comes to gender equality and sexuality.

Oh wait, no I do understand.

OP: play your character how they are. If your character is the kind of person who tells everyone they are pan, then run with it and have fun. Don't let homophobes at your table keep you from having fun. Hopefully your group isn't awful though cause being forced to play straight characters sucks.

Knaight
2017-10-10, 07:50 AM
The whole of D&D is the least medieval thing. I don't understand why people are so able to accept fantasy when it comes to magic, combat, economics, other species, lifespans, mortality, politics, class and so much more, but insist things must be "realistic" when it comes to gender equality and sexuality.

I'd agree that it's ridiculously unhistorical in a lot of fashions (not least because what history it pulls from involves compressing over a continent together across a good thousand years) - I'd just contest that some of what was put forward in that post regarding the actual medieval period was also off.

NecroDancer
2017-10-10, 09:01 AM
Sexuality in d&d doesn't really matter that much as being gay, lesbian, straight, etc doesn't really affect how you fight the evil lich who wants to steal your soul (who would have thought?).

When it comes to sex and d&d usually (at least for my table) it's used for stupid jokes/stupider innuendos/really-extra-stupid puns and/or mild flirting.

However (at least in 5e) there are canonical gay/lesbian characters (The module Curse of Strahd has a gay paladin sworn to restore the righteousness of his fallen order, it's as awesome as it sounds).

Basically your character can have whatever sexuality you want them to have and no one should shame you for it but just remember the "fade to black" rule.

Jay R
2017-10-10, 09:10 AM
I don't deal in anything at the gaming table that's not part of the story we're telling. So most of my characters don't flirt, for the same reason I don't describe showering, washing clothes, or using the bathroom. Yes, of course it happens, but I won't waste other people's time with actions that don't affect them or help drive the plot.

The one great exception occurred when it did drive the plot, by having political effects. But we still did it away from the table. I was playing Ornrandir, a 2e elven mage/thief, given the title of the Earl of Devon by the king. He was an outcast orphan who had only recently formed any attachments to anybody. I had played him as emotionally undeveloped but brilliant. My wife was playing Rowena, a female human wizard, a lady-in-waiting to the queen. She had been in an ivory tower (literally) studying magic since she was a child. She played her as an extreme nerd. The royalty had started leaning on us to make political marriages. In response, we sent the following email to the entire gaming group.

A situation has occurred. It will affect the party to some extent, so I guess you should all hear about it. The two of us decided to explain it to you in character, so here it is.

(You may ignore which account this email came from; it was written by the two of us together.)
-----------------------

Rowena has been traveling to Devon Manor regularly to do magical research stuff and help set up the schools there, make scrolls, etc. The next time she visits after a Certain Conversation with the Queen, once she and Ornrandir are alone in the study where they work together on magic, she initiates the following conversation:

Rowena: The Queen tells me I really ought to give some thought to perpetuating magical bloodlines and recommends I consider marrying you.

Ornrandir: I’ve heard similar rumblings. Countess Elanor told me I have to find someone to marry, too. Something about an heir for the county.

Rowena: It is a rational idea. It is just that I have never really considered it before. I have been rather busy learning magic; all that physical stuff seemed so…worldly.

Ornrandir: I certainly know little about it. I’ve never had any family, and I've been an outcast all my life, except for those occasions when the only female I’ve traveled with was Lorelei, the paladin.

Rowena: The gaggle of giggling girls I must spend time with these days seems so focused on the idea.

Ornrandir: I know. Everyone but you is so stupid.

Rowena: I am already spending a lot of time here anyway.

Ornrandir: My servants wouldn’t have to prepare separate rooms for you each time. That would be convenient. And we seem able to get along.

Rowena: After all, we worked well together blasting hundreds of goblins with lightning bolts.

Ornrandir: I enjoyed casting coordinated lightning bolts with you. I’ve never felt so connected to another person before.

Rowena: After that, how difficult could this marriage thing be?

Ornrandir: Love is one of the strongest and most mysterious forces of the universe. Of course, controlling arcane cosmic forces is what wizards do. Maybe we should research a spell for it?

Rowena: As a mage, I will not age as quickly as normals; being elven, you of course will not age at all, so I really do not see why we need to be in a big hurry. And why should I care about being considered – how did she put it? Oh, yes – an "old maid".

Ornrandir: That seems like a meaningless phrase. Everybody becomes old, and an unmarried woman is of course a maid.

Rowena: On the other hand, your life expectancy, given your penchant for getting into trouble, isn’t exactly eternal. [looks him up and down appraisingly] At least if I marry you, you won’t keep getting ripped off by the tailors. You paid far too much for that rag you’re wearing.

Ornrandir: Fine by me. I’d be happy not to have to think about clothes any more.

Rowena: You thought about … that?

Ornrandir: Of course. It has a fleece collar, so I always have the material component for Phantasmal Force, feathers as decorations so I can fly, and several pockets worked into it here for other components. It has two internal pockets for scrolls, this hidden pocket for a dagger, and Lorelei will never figure out where the thieves’ tools are. It's green, for easy concealment in the trees. See? I carefully considered every relevant sartorial issue.

Rowena: I see. Yes, I believe I should take over those decisions. [Pause.] I would prefer to avoid that spectacle that Aduphus went through to marry Lady Stanley. The collective intelligence of her Majesty’s ladies dropped like a stone the instant someone said, “wedding”, and all they could talk about for weeks was fripperies and lace. Why do you think I spent so much time here writing out scrolls?

Ornrandir: Believe me, I understand. Since I developed the gold and mithril mines, all the nobles have been throwing their daughters at me. A year earlier they were offended that I was allowed to carry a weapon, and now they want me to sheathe one in their daughters.

Rowena: So how quickly can we get this over with?

Ornrandir: Well, when they assigned us to go fetch the Prince, we started out on the task immediately. Is the priest available today?

Rowena: I suppose we need to tell the Queen first. She might have an opinion about how it is done. So we are fully agreed about the marriage?

Ornrandir: It does seem like the logical thing to do [says the pointy-eared member of the couple].

Rowena: I’m glad we were able to work this out rationally, without the usual tawdry, emotional mess.

Ornrandir: Of course. We may be the two most intelligent people on the planet. We won’t let maudlin sentimentality distract us from rational analysis.

Rowena: Well, I am glad that that is settled. Now back to important matters - about that scroll we were discussing…

Segev
2017-10-10, 09:38 AM
If I found out a member of the group shared homophobic views OOC tbh I would rather leave the group peacefully altogether without making any sort of scene and find a new group. IC as a character thing but I know the person is just playing a role, I wouldn't care so much OOC and probably role with it IC as a cool story angle.

Holding those views OOC doesn't bother me because I can't handle views different from my own so to speak, but because I'm actually gay and would no longer feel welcome in that group enviornment, which is a big part of the experience for me. Because I like to feel like we're friends at the end of the day at the table and look forward to the next session with the people as much as the characters. Which honestly I would rather learn the truth of that early on than find out from an off hand comment latter on when I'm invested in the group/story. Which I have had happened. Thankfully everyone at the table seems to have no issue as far as I can tell (including a father and 15 year old son who laughed when a friend I brought with me mentioned the time I kissed my gf at a pride parade in front of prostestors). Which is why I'm breaching the thought of playing a non straight character in the first place.

The campaign is very story and character driven with a lot of roleplay heavy interactions. In my experience things like character relationships whether they're familial, platonic, or romantic end up in the spotlight at one point or another, and if that last one happens with my character I want to feel secure and true to the character in doing so.

Then it sounds like you'll only discover troubles that are already there, rather than creating any. Though I'd be careful about the "homophobe" label. One need not approve of homosexuality, nor want to have it thrust in their face, to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Even to be friends with them.

I have friends who drink (though I doubt to excess), and I don't particularly approve of it, but it isn't a reason for me to sit in judgment of them.

There's a difference between "neither liking nor approving of your choices in some aspect of your life" and "hating you and thinking you less than human." It is a tragedy to me that so many people feel "unwelcome" just because people don't wholeheartedly support and approve their choices.

Penelomeeg
2017-10-10, 10:08 AM
Then it sounds like you'll only discover troubles that are already there, rather than creating any. Though I'd be careful about the "homophobe" label. One need not approve of homosexuality, nor want to have it thrust in their face, to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Even to be friends with them.

I have friends who drink (though I doubt to excess), and I don't particularly approve of it, but it isn't a reason for me to sit in judgment of them.

There's a difference between "neither liking nor approving of your choices in some aspect of your life" and "hating you and thinking you less than human." It is a tragedy to me that so many people feel "unwelcome" just because people don't wholeheartedly support and approve their choices.

Im not going to derail anything so this is the last I'll post on this but honestly, the reason I feel this way isn't to censor other people, it's so I don't have to censor myself or anyone else. The thing is even the "i don't really approve of it but whatever" attitude would male the atmosphere notibly less casual and comfortable. Because we talk about our lives and things that happen outside of the game. I don't expect anyone to have to think about whether what they say to me during those moment beyond "oh this is a cool story" within reason, so being in a situation where I have to consider "will telling this story about me and my girlfriend at the park the other day make mitch uncomfortable?" Is yes fairly unwelcoming.

Also this isn't me lashing out or saying this with any anger but more poibting out that whether or not someone drinks isn't really comparable to sexuality. One is a downtime activity that isn't a big part of their life (hopefully) and the other is the nature of the physical and romantic relationships they have through out their lives and determines the people they share it with. A better comparison would be if say you're married or dating someone and your friends mentioned "yeah we don't like her and don't think you should date her, but it's your decision" and you had to have that moment of "consideration" anytime you wanted to tell a story or make a comment involving her vs your friends who can make offhand comments about the same subject without much thought.

It's just my preference as a gamer to not have to worry about that during my escape hobby.

Penelomeeg
2017-10-10, 10:12 AM
Sexuality in d&d doesn't really matter that much as being gay, lesbian, straight, etc doesn't really affect how you fight the evil lich who wants to steal your soul (who would have thought?).

When it comes to sex and d&d usually (at least for my table) it's used for stupid jokes/stupider innuendos/really-extra-stupid puns and/or mild flirting.

However (at least in 5e) there are canonical gay/lesbian characters (The module Curse of Strahd has a gay paladin sworn to restore the righteousness of his fallen order, it's as awesome as it sounds).

Basically your character can have whatever sexuality you want them to have and no one should shame you for it but just remember the "fade to black" rule.

Huh I had no idea, I haven't gotten to pkay Strahd yet but that's super cool! But I'm a sucker for paladins so maybe I'm biased.

So far most of the flirting has come from our bard and some shield maiden NPCs who either sparred very vigorously or had a romp with another NPC who travels with our party as our tank...we still haven't been able to figure out which from talking to him. The poor lad has an 8 Int and a 9 Wis.

The Extinguisher
2017-10-10, 10:17 AM
Then it sounds like you'll only discover troubles that are already there, rather than creating any. Though I'd be careful about the "homophobe" label. One need not approve of homosexuality, nor want to have it thrust in their face, to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Even to be friends with them.

I have friends who drink (though I doubt to excess), and I don't particularly approve of it, but it isn't a reason for me to sit in judgment of them.

There's a difference between "neither liking nor approving of your choices in some aspect of your life" and "hating you and thinking you less than human." It is a tragedy to me that so many people feel "unwelcome" just because people don't wholeheartedly support and approve their choices.

I'm sorry, but my sexuality is neither a choice, nor anyway comparable to alcohol consumption. This "I don't hate you I just think what you're doing is wrong" is a garbage ideology and I have no problem calling people who hold it the homophobes that they are.

I don't care if I'm making these people feel unwelcome and uncomfortable, because I won't shut up and pretend to be straight for their backwards sensabilities

Trampaige
2017-10-10, 10:25 AM
Then it sounds like you'll only discover troubles that are already there, rather than creating any. Though I'd be careful about the "homophobe" label. One need not approve of homosexuality, nor want to have it thrust in their face, to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Even to be friends with them.




Hold the hell up here.

As opposed to how heterosexuality is shoved in everybody's face?

This kind of line is typically used by people who are "okay" with it as long as they never have to hear about it, see queer people living their lives, or interact with it in any way. In otherwords, blatant homophobia disgused as the middle ground.

Nobody like that is capable of being a friend to me or actually being accepting. Speaking from a position of privilege to suggest that.

icefractal
2017-10-10, 10:41 AM
One need not approve of homosexuality, nor want to have it thrust in their face, to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Even to be friends with them.Let me be honest - if someone told me: "I don't approve of programmers. All those non-physical jobs are parasites on society. Nothing against you personally, I just think that the world would be better if there weren't any." I would not consider that person my friend.

Nor would - "Oh well of course, playing RPGs at your age makes you a pathetic manchild, but I don't /hate/ you for it. I just think of you like an alcoholic." go over well.

And those are things I could change at any time.

Segev
2017-10-10, 11:17 AM
Im not going to derail anything so this is the last I'll post on this but honestly, the reason I feel this way isn't to censor other people, it's so I don't have to censor myself or anyone else. The thing is even the "i don't really approve of it but whatever" attitude would male the atmosphere notibly less casual and comfortable. Because we talk about our lives and things that happen outside of the game. I don't expect anyone to have to think about whether what they say to me during those moment beyond "oh this is a cool story" within reason, so being in a situation where I have to consider "will telling this story about me and my girlfriend at the park the other day make mitch uncomfortable?" Is yes fairly unwelcoming.

Also this isn't me lashing out or saying this with any anger but more poibting out that whether or not someone drinks isn't really comparable to sexuality. One is a downtime activity that isn't a big part of their life (hopefully) and the other is the nature of the physical and romantic relationships they have through out their lives and determines the people they share it with. A better comparison would be if say you're married or dating someone and your friends mentioned "yeah we don't like her and don't think you should date her, but it's your decision" and you had to have that moment of "consideration" anytime you wanted to tell a story or make a comment involving her vs your friends who can make offhand comments about the same subject without much thought.

It's just my preference as a gamer to not have to worry about that during my escape hobby.That's fine, but honestly, there are dozens of things that make people uncomfortable. It's up to them to determine if it's over a line where they ask it to stop, and then it's a matter of discussion between mature adults to determine if that line is reasonable or the person needs to grow a thicker skin.

Speaking for myself, as long as you're not describing how you and your girlfriend snogged each others' tonsils out, I'd probably take it in stride. (Honestly, if my heterosexual friends who were dating started telling me about their PDAs or other, more intimate details of their sex lives, I'd probably be equally "TMI, guys.")

In short: if "Mitch" is uncomfortable, that's his issue, unless you're really engaging on a level that might, in a work environment, constitute sexual harassment of the "hostile workplace environment" variety. (I...will not go into THAT rant, beyond the irony that some sexual harassment trainings have, by their definitions of "hostile workplace environment," created one for me. Then again, I'm a prude.)


I'm sorry, but my sexuality is neither a choice, nor anyway comparable to alcohol consumption. This "I don't hate you I just think what you're doing is wrong" is a garbage ideology and I have no problem calling people who hold it the homophobes that they are.

I don't care if I'm making these people feel unwelcome and uncomfortable, because I won't shut up and pretend to be straight for their backwards sensabilitiesI was picking something I do not engage in as an example. I apologize if it seemed like I was otherwise comparing it. I won't pretend people choose to whom their attracted. People do choose how to act on it, but as long as it's between consenting adults it really isn't my business. Unless they make it my business somehow. I prefer they don't.

I'm not suggesting you should "shut up and pretend to be straight," but everybody has the same right to avoid discomfort you do. Note: the same right. This is where being mature adults and discussing things comes into play, if there's some need to compromise on comfort levels.

I also don't approve of heterosexual relations outside of wedlock, but again, it's usually not my business. Though I do prefer that my social groups not discuss their sexual exploits, as part of my comfort level. (I could pretend it's because I feel victimized by the exclusion, as I am not yet married, but it's really just that it's PRIVATE and not something I want to be dragged to a metaphorical hole in the wall to learn about.)


Hold the hell up here.

As opposed to how heterosexuality is shoved in everybody's face?

This kind of line is typically used by people who are "okay" with it as long as they never have to hear about it, see queer people living their lives, or interact with it in any way. In otherwords, blatant homophobia disgused as the middle ground.

Nobody like that is capable of being a friend to me or actually being accepting. Speaking from a position of privilege to suggest that.Pff. No, "shoving it in my face" is one of two things:

1) PDAs, which I'm uncomfortable with in general, hetero or homo. But I can avert my attention there.
2) Demands that I celebrate it with them. Shoving it into circumstances where it need not be, with intent to watch for any who dare object so they can be pounced upon for their thoughtcrime and badspeech.

You want to live your life and not hide your preferences or relationships, that's fine. I can live and let live. I can even congratulate you on your happiness, if you've found it.

But don't ask me to help you actualize it, because it isn't something in which I want to be involved. Don't demand that I comment favorably on it, nor make it a spectacle and be offended if I don't stop and applaud. (And yes, there ARE those who expect an equivalent of that. They generally want to bear down on those who don't approve of homosexuality and demand that said disapprovers confess it as a sin and repent, rather than just being happy when such people leave them alone.)


Let me be honest - if someone told me: "I don't approve of programmers. All those non-physical jobs are parasites on society. Nothing against you personally, I just think that the world would be better if there weren't any." I would not consider that person my friend. At all.
It's the part I bolded that you have a right to be offended by, and which makes you thinking this person isn't a good friend for you an accurate thing.

Note that nowhere did I say that people of any sexual leaning are "parasites," nor that the world would be better without those individuals.

I happen to think they'd be better off if they weren't gay, but I am not them nor do I think I have any right to force my opinion on them. I don't live their life. I don't actually know, though I have solid reasons for why I believe as I do. If asked for advice, I'd give advice, but if not asked, I won't. Because it isn't my business.


Consider this: WOULD I be better off if I were right-handed? (I won't be offended if you say "yes" or "no," simply because there are logical reasons to conclude either. Though in a simple "the world is set up for right-handed people" sort of way, it's easier to make the argument for "yes," even though I am quite happy being sinistrous and would not want to change. I suspect that it's similar for people who are happy being gay: objectively, the world has things set up better for you if you're straight, but there are probably gay people who wouldn't "go straight" even if it were an option, because they're happy as they are.)

Similarly, there are people who hate Pathfinder but like RPGs who might be better off if they liked PF, since it would give them more opportunity to engage in their RPG hobby.

For those who think this spoiler is protesting too much, let me say that I wish I didn't feel a need to head off accusations that I hate gays because I think they might be better off if they weren't. But I know how charged this topic is.

Anyway. The sum of it is this: LIVE AND LET LIVE.

Penelomeeg
2017-10-10, 11:39 AM
That's fine, but honestly, there are dozens of things that make people uncomfortable. It's up to them to determine if it's over a line where they ask it to stop, and then it's a matter of discussion between mature adults to determine if that line is reasonable or the person needs to grow a thicker skin.

Speaking for myself, as long as you're not describing how you and your girlfriend snogged each others' tonsils out, I'd probably take it in stride. (Honestly, if my heterosexual friends who were dating started telling me about their PDAs or other, more intimate details of their sex lives, I'd probably be equally "TMI, guys.")

In short: if "Mitch" is uncomfortable, that's his issue, unless you're really engaging on a level that might, in a work environment, constitute sexual harassment of the "hostile workplace environment" variety. (I...will not go into THAT rant, beyond the irony that some sexual harassment trainings have, by their definitions of "hostile workplace environment," created one for me. Then again, I'm a prude.)

I was picking something I do not engage in as an example. I apologize if it seemed like I was otherwise comparing it. I won't pretend people choose to whom their attracted. People do choose how to act on it, but as long as it's between consenting adults it really isn't my business. Unless they make it my business somehow. I prefer they don't.

I'm not suggesting you should "shut up and pretend to be straight," but everybody has the same right to avoid discomfort you do. Note: the same right. This is where being mature adults and discussing things comes into play, if there's some need to compromise on comfort levels.

I also don't approve of heterosexual relations outside of wedlock, but again, it's usually not my business. Though I do prefer that my social groups not discuss their sexual exploits, as part of my comfort level. (I could pretend it's because I feel victimized by the exclusion, as I am not yet married, but it's really just that it's PRIVATE and not something I want to be dragged to a metaphorical hole in the wall to learn about.)

Pff. No, "shoving it in my face" is one of two things:

1) PDAs, which I'm uncomfortable with in general, hetero or homo. But I can avert my attention there.
2) Demands that I celebrate it with them. Shoving it into circumstances where it need not be, with intent to watch for any who dare object so they can be pounced upon for their thoughtcrime and badspeech.

You want to live your life and not hide your preferences or relationships, that's fine. I can live and let live. I can even congratulate you on your happiness, if you've found it.

But don't ask me to help you actualize it, because it isn't something in which I want to be involved. Don't demand that I comment favorably on it, nor make it a spectacle and be offended if I don't stop and applaud. (And yes, there ARE those who expect an equivalent of that. They generally want to bear down on those who don't approve of homosexuality and demand that said disapprovers confess it as a sin and repent, rather than just being happy when such people leave them alone.)


It's the part I bolded that you have a right to be offended by, and which makes you thinking this person isn't a good friend for you an accurate thing.

Note that nowhere did I say that people of any sexual leaning are "parasites," nor that the world would be better without those individuals.

I happen to think they'd be better off if they weren't gay, but I am not them nor do I think I have any right to force my opinion on them. I don't live their life. I don't actually know, though I have solid reasons for why I believe as I do. If asked for advice, I'd give advice, but if not asked, I won't. Because it isn't my business.


Consider this: WOULD I be better off if I were right-handed? (I won't be offended if you say "yes" or "no," simply because there are logical reasons to conclude either. Though in a simple "the world is set up for right-handed people" sort of way, it's easier to make the argument for "yes," even though I am quite happy being sinistrous and would not want to change. I suspect that it's similar for people who are happy being gay: objectively, the world has things set up better for you if you're straight, but there are probably gay people who wouldn't "go straight" even if it were an option, because they're happy as they are.)

Similarly, there are people who hate Pathfinder but like RPGs who might be better off if they liked PF, since it would give them more opportunity to engage in their RPG hobby.

For those who think this spoiler is protesting too much, let me say that I wish I didn't feel a need to head off accusations that I hate gays because I think they might be better off if they weren't. But I know how charged this topic is.

Anyway. The sum of it is this: LIVE AND LET LIVE.

Okay while there's some...problematic points and wording in that post, I would like to ask people please not post in reply or quoting. I really don't want a **** storm to come out of this topic.

Segev
2017-10-10, 11:44 AM
Okay while there's some...problematic points and wording in that post, I would like to ask people please not post in reply or quoting. I really don't want a **** storm to come out of this topic.

Fair enough. My apologies. I shall not reply on that particular topic any further in this thread.

2D8HP
2017-10-10, 11:45 AM
I haven't read most of the posts in this thread so I may be repeating someone, anyway, judging by the "Drow" reference your playing D&D or Pathfinder, but this goes for most other table top role-playing games that I'm familiar with as well:

You're playing "radio improvisation theatre with dice", with occasional interruptions to play a war-game, so if your PC is flirting than you and the DM or another player are improvising the dialog of flirting (or just narrating "I flirt with the waiter/Duchess/Warlord/whatever), and then narration of any resulting shenanigans, so basically it comes down to how comfortable the folks in the room are with that, now I've never witnessed it being much of a problem but.....

they're some tales (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?95189-New-Worst-Session-How-Lanky-got-hisself-stabbed!)

(seriously read some of that thread).

LibraryOgre
2017-10-10, 12:00 PM
Tangential, but am I the only person who's bugged by how Haley does this? A bit because her bi experimenting is safely in her past, where she never so much acknowledges the attractiveness of anyone other than her hetero partner. A bit because Elan never tried saving princes to see how it went, Belkar never made a pretty boy swoon when there were no handy females around, and really I can't remember the last named LGBT+ male character in the strip. Bisexuality as a way to make a female seem more adventurous in a way that will never interfere with an existing hetero relationship is a rather annoying trope.

I think it winds up being a conversation for elsewhere, really. Haley is an example of it, but there's certainly a degree of heteronormativity in most media.




In real-life medieval europe, people were painfully conscious of their place in the social ladder. And the church was the major institution of the day. Yet strangely, I've experienced very few PCs who roleplayed such fervent devotion to god, king, and country.

Beneath the window dressing of kings and knights and whatnot, D&D settings are a pastiche of all eras up to and including modern. Focusing on the grittier parts just to be edgy is a pretty solid red flag.

I tend to view D&D and its derivatives as being best understood as a Western. A notionally egalitarian and classless society, that nonetheless reflects some patriarchal and hierarchical biases... In theory, Sharon Stone CAN be the fastest gun fighter in the West, and is theoretically Gene Hackman's social equal, but in reality, her ability is presented as an oddity and he's understood to be higher class than her.

Nifft
2017-10-10, 12:31 PM
My rule for sexuality at the table:
- If it's conflict / drama / trouble for the characters, it can stay.
- If it's conflict / drama / trouble for the players, out it goes.


For my own settings, I tend to see the world as having a lot of double-standards.

In specific, adventurers are allowed to break a lot of social rules no matter where they go, because they are powerful, unpredictable, and frankly terrifying. Adventurers can do things which "normal" people could not get away with doing.

This can come up when adventurers are trying to disguise themselves as "normal" people for some reason, or when an adventurer wants to dally with a "normal" -- that sort of thing can ruin the normal person's life after the adventurer leaves. However, it's not impossible to find a retired adventurer or two running an inn or magic item shop or whatever, so it's sometimes possible to have a stray night of fun yet stay "within" your outside-the-rules adventurer caste.

This goes for sexual mores of all kinds, including but not limited to homosexuality and dating outside your species and dating outside your station (the latter of which is generally far more serious since it tends to upset the political and economic status quo).

The Extinguisher
2017-10-10, 12:44 PM
Okay while there's some...problematic points and wording in that post, I would like to ask people please not post in reply or quoting. I really don't want a **** storm to come out of this topic.

Yeah okay. I definitely don't want to have these arguments again, so I can respect this. I don't think this the place for it.

Especially cause sexuality is an interesting topic when it comes to gaming and I'd love to be able to actually talk about it.

Penelomeeg
2017-10-10, 12:55 PM
Yeah okay. I definitely don't want to have these arguments again, so I can respect this. I don't think this the place for it.

Especially cause sexuality is an interesting topic when it comes to gaming and I'd love to be able to actually talk about it.

I agree on that. Cultural shifts and infouences in the gamong community in general is really interesting these days. Honestly the gaming and "nerd" community has had some great experiences of making me feel welcomed and accepted.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-10-10, 01:07 PM
But just be wary of your own feelings on the matter. I recently experienced somebody injecting their preferences into a game and being horrifically offended that my character was naïve and not up on popular real-world identity politics and political correctness. Deliberately injecting something potentially controversial and then being irate that not everybody plays it the way you want them to is uncool.

I see this as being similar to someone making, say, a black character in an RPG. Let's say it's a black character in a real world 21st century Earth setting. Horrible racists exist in this setting. This isn't an excuse to have your character start spewing racial epithets and then hide behind the banner of "It's just what my character would do, man." Someone making a black person isn't "injecting something potentially controversial", and it isn't an excuse to mess with them.

Is it inherently unworkable to have a horrible racist PC? No, but it requires a level of trust from the rest of the group and it's on that player to make sure that everyone's fine with it before they decide to take their character in that direction.

Segev
2017-10-10, 03:01 PM
I see this as being similar to someone making, say, a black character in an RPG. Let's say it's a black character in a real world 21st century Earth setting. Horrible racists exist in this setting. This isn't an excuse to have your character start spewing racial epithets and then hide behind the banner of "It's just what my character would do, man." Someone making a black person isn't "injecting something potentially controversial", and it isn't an excuse to mess with them.

Is it inherently unworkable to have a horrible racist PC? No, but it requires a level of trust from the rest of the group and it's on that player to make sure that everyone's fine with it before they decide to take their character in that direction.

Not what the situation was. A uber-masculine character had gotten sex-swapped, and this other player's character made a comment on there being more to being a woman than having boobs. My character naively assumed this character meant that boobs were a secondary sexual characteristic, and said, "You mean he might still have a--! EW!" and took a hard drink. My character was already discomfited by finding the formerly very masculine character's female form rather attractive, and that was just the last straw on his disturbed-o-meter.

The other player was horribly offended that I was making fun of trans- people. Which...a) I wasn't and b) my character wasn't. My character was disturbed by the mental image he'd gotten. And the concept of "identity" never even crossed his mind. (It took me a bit after the other player blew up at me to realize that's what said player had the character getting at by "more to a being a woman than having boobs." I had some guesses, but they were all making me go, "I know this player's too sensitive on these issues to be suggesting it has to do with behavior, so that can't be it..." and so I wasn't about to try to parse it.)

Me, I was just making fun of my character by having him be naïve, and trip over mental images he had not previously encountered and would not have willingly entertained.

The Extinguisher
2017-10-10, 03:36 PM
I agree on that. Cultural shifts and infouences in the gamong community in general is really interesting these days. Honestly the gaming and "nerd" community has had some great experiences of making me feel welcomed and accepted.

For sure, but my primary interaction with the broader gaming community has been an experience of hating me, mocking me, fetishising me and overall making me feel awful.

There are lots of good people in the community, and lots of people working hard to make it better, but there are also lots of awful people and they are very loud.

Scripten
2017-10-10, 03:50 PM
Not what the situation was. A uber-masculine character had gotten sex-swapped, and this other player's character made a comment on there being more to being a woman than having boobs. My character naively assumed this character meant that boobs were a secondary sexual characteristic, and said, "You mean he might still have a--! EW!" and took a hard drink. My character was already discomfited by finding the formerly very masculine character's female form rather attractive, and that was just the last straw on his disturbed-o-meter.

The other player was horribly offended that I was making fun of trans- people. Which...a) I wasn't and b) my character wasn't. My character was disturbed by the mental image he'd gotten. And the concept of "identity" never even crossed his mind. (It took me a bit after the other player blew up at me to realize that's what said player had the character getting at by "more to a being a woman than having boobs." I had some guesses, but they were all making me go, "I know this player's too sensitive on these issues to be suggesting it has to do with behavior, so that can't be it..." and so I wasn't about to try to parse it.)

Me, I was just making fun of my character by having him be naïve, and trip over mental images he had not previously encountered and would not have willingly entertained.

I can definitely see how this situation would have been read as you(r character) making a joke that was transphobic. I mean, obviously the character in question wasn't trans unless their player had specifically said that they identified as such, but you have to be careful in those situations if you don't want to come off as a tactless jerk. Whether or not you feel that it's warranted, there's a potential that such jokes are going to harm someone else unless you're very clear, which seems not to be the case in the way this example was expressed.

Penelomeeg
2017-10-10, 04:13 PM
For sure, but my primary interaction with the broader gaming community has been an experience of hating me, mocking me, fetishising me and overall making me feel awful.

There are lots of good people in the community, and lots of people working hard to make it better, but there are also lots of awful people and they are very loud.

Yeah I've had my share of the same. The fact that I'm non gender conforming and a few shades of queer has lead to some uncomfortable situations. Nevermind when I identified more feminine got flak for being the only girl in the group (dm in a one shot literally had a horny mob chase my 17 y/o character to try and get her to "pay up" on a bet I had to do where I "offered favors" if I lost. Naturally I had her try to leave town without paying up and somehow that guy and his buddies magically knew)

There's however a lot of good and awesome people. My current groups are rather diverse groups. The one I'm introducinf the character this thread about was my first time being in an all male group (with two dudes in their mid 30s, a 15 year old, and then one guy my age) but they're all really nice guys so far and a friend of mine is actually joining us tonight with a new party member :)

Segev
2017-10-10, 06:37 PM
I can definitely see how this situation would have been read as you(r character) making a joke that was transphobic. I mean, obviously the character in question wasn't trans unless their player had specifically said that they identified as such, but you have to be careful in those situations if you don't want to come off as a tactless jerk. Whether or not you feel that it's warranted, there's a potential that such jokes are going to harm someone else unless you're very clear, which seems not to be the case in the way this example was expressed.Given the language chosen by the player, it was a generic proactive defense of potential trans- people, not a personal thing other than that person's personal intolerance of a disapproved view. My refusal to grovel for having done something that, I quote, "You know what you did," (which, until the blow-up went to full flame, I didn't) meant I was a horrific transphobe the likes of which civilized people could not condone being in their group. So this player left.

Given some things that happened in-game earlier in the evening, complete with "oh, no, I'm not upset, just my character is," but which were of a similar flavor of "you should know what you did wrong" in-character, I can't help but wonder, as I look at it now, if somebody wasn't just spoiling for a fight. I don't doubt the offense taken was real, mind. I didn't intend it, and might have apologized that they were offended, though not for having thought playing my character as I did was acceptable. I still do.

Nobody present was actually trans-, in or out of character, except possibly the sex-changed character (not player) who, in this case, was just having an amused reaction to the whole thing. I can see why somebody who was trans- who had difficulties getting a relationship because people aren't into their equipment might be stung by it striking too close to home, but "it strikes too close to home for some" is a "know your audience" thing, not a reason why it should never be portrayed. Otherwise, nothing can ever be discussed, because I can guarantee that, for every possible topic, there's SOMEBODY who will have a personally painful association.

This was a "indignant outrage on a group in general's behalf" thing. And the stretch to get to it, while only a couple of logical leaps, still took a couple of logical leaps to get to it being mockery of anybody but my character.


Yeah I've had my share of the same. The fact that I'm non gender conforming and a few shades of queer has lead to some uncomfortable situations. Nevermind when I identified more feminine got flak for being the only girl in the group (dm in a one shot literally had a horny mob chase my 17 y/o character to try and get her to "pay up" on a bet I had to do where I "offered favors" if I lost. Naturally I had her try to leave town without paying up and somehow that guy and his buddies magically knew)Now that's just skeevey. It's possible it was meant innocently as consequences of IC actions, but at the least it was bad judgment on the GM's part for not realizing it could be read that way given the player in question.

Also, skeeviness aside, "they magically knew" is just plain awful GMing.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-10, 08:03 PM
Tangential, but am I the only person who's bugged by how Haley does this? A bit because her bi experimenting is safely in her past, where she never so much acknowledges the attractiveness of anyone other than her hetero partner. A bit because Elan never tried saving princes to see how it went, Belkar never made a pretty boy swoon when there were no handy females around, and really I can't remember the last named LGBT+ male character in the strip. Bisexuality as a way to make a female seem more adventurous in a way that will never interfere with an existing hetero relationship is a rather annoying trope.

1) Haley was clearly shown to be REALLY BAD at being honest with those around her. If she did or did not find others attractive it would not have been shown, and then there's that sliiiiight issue of her probably needing to focus on the world being in a bit of trouble. She may not comment on it now to avoid confusing Elan.

Not to mention, her party mates other then Elan are 1) her occasional roommate who was MARRIED, so that's a no 2) Not one, but TWO sticks in the mud who often tried to stop her from acquiring wealth and 3) Belkar.

2) Elan is so dumb, I wouldn't be surprised if the idea of rescuing princes never would have occurred to him, even if he was the gayest thing around.

3) Belkar is a unrepentant murderer. In a strip where sexuality isn't going to be addressed often or discussed, maaaaybe making him seduce guys would give the wrong message.

4) Haley wanders into dungeons, shoots arrows, travels the world, meets exotic monsters and then kills them for experience. I don't see how bisexuality would make her more 'adventurous', given that she is a literal adventurer. Her lover is also the one who decided to seduce the half-orc ninja and the bandit sorceress, so I think someone else is winning in the 'being adventurous in the bedroom' department.

5) More LGBT+ characters wouldn't be bad, but it might be hard to incorporate it into the dialog given current events.

Anyway, as for the topic, this is going to sound super nit-picky, but that's only because it is: Phrase this carefully! Perhaps I am reading the character's intentions wrong, but it doesn't really seem like you're intending to delve heavily into her sexual preferences terribly, just make some off-hand comments of a quite diverse past. However, I'm pretty sure a LOT of DMs have had issues with people using this as an excuse to hit on other table mates in real life, so I would make it clear you intend to keep things at whatever level you game at, just expand on your character. It might even be worth mentioning that you intend to have your character hit on a character played by someone who did the reverse to you, so you're sure they're fine with it.

Penelomeeg
2017-10-10, 11:52 PM
We had our session and it actually came up sooner than we thought. She lightly flirted with the bard and even bought him a drink as thanks for saving her from a fall, and made eyes briefly with an old female friend from her order at the safehouse they went to.

The character came off more playful than anything I think and was pleased with how well it went.

Mordaedil
2017-10-11, 01:19 AM
Nice, that reads like you had a good time with it and the others were okay with it.

Coidzor
2017-10-11, 01:47 AM
Hold the hell up here.

As opposed to how heterosexuality is shoved in everybody's face?

Many, many people don't enjoy any sexuality getting shoved in their face when they want to slit some orc gizzards.

So this falls rather flat in this context unless a given person is specifically OK with straight sex and romance going on in-game.

Nobody likes the stereotypical dude who either is 13 or who emotionally stopped developing at the age of 13 and goes on about how "if there's any girls there [they] wanna do them."


Bisexuality as a way to make a female seem more adventurous in a way that will never interfere with an existing hetero relationship is a rather annoying trope.

So you want to add non-monogamy or polyamory elements and the potential tensions that lead to a relationship failing if one is poly and the other is monogamous or Haley and Elan just ending up somewhere in the neighbourhood of poly like Nale and Sabine to the plot on top of everything else?

Mordaedil
2017-10-11, 02:26 AM
Many, many people don't enjoy any sexuality getting shoved in their face when they want to slit some orc gizzards.

So this falls rather flat in this context unless a given person is specifically OK with straight sex and romance going on in-game.

Nobody likes the stereotypical dude who either is 13 or who emotionally stopped developing at the age of 13 and goes on about how "if there's any girls there [they] wanna do them."

Not that I want the topic to delve into this particular rabbit hole, but I think it's the inclusion of sexuality on a subconscious level, sort of how like everything can have phallic symbolism if you try to look for it hard enough, that we've just been made to accept to the point where we don't see it as anything but just normal behavior. It is just so normal to most of us that we don't see it, pick up on it until someone points it out to us.

Satinavian
2017-10-11, 03:10 AM
Personally i have never had any problems with sexual orientations iof PCs. It doesn't come up that often, but if it does, no one bats an eyelid.

It is different for trans PCs, which i can't remember a single one. The main problem here is that gender in the particular fantasy word usually has completely different coonotations than in the real world which means being trans has completely different meaning.
I also remember some problems with some players and some fantasy worlds and nature vs. nurture debates.

But the most questions arose about sex of non-humans. How they differ, how it reflects in heir society. Maybe also if and how mixed pairs of sapients could/would work.

Boci
2017-10-11, 04:14 AM
Pff. No, "shoving it in my face" is one of two things:

1) PDAs, which I'm uncomfortable with in general, hetero or homo. But I can avert my attention there.
2) Demands that I celebrate it with them. Shoving it into circumstances where it need not be, with intent to watch for any who dare object so they can be pounced upon for their thoughtcrime and badspeech.

A good test I find for whether or not you are being reasonable or not is to swap "gay" for "black". So "just be careful roleplaying a gay relationship, some might disaprove" becomes "just be careful roleplaying a black relationship, some might dissaprove". You may argue these two things are different, but they aren't, both involve your personal identity.

If you don't want gay or black relationships/flirting at your table, you should probably ban all relationship /flirting, because will rightfully get upset when they are told their their personal identity cannot be expressed bias ingame relationship whilsts others can.

Jormengand
2017-10-11, 07:47 AM
And the stretch to get to it, while only a couple of logical leaps, still took a couple of logical leaps to get to it being mockery of anybody but my character.

Dude, you literally went "Woman with penis => eww" and can't fathom how that's offensive to trans people or those with their interests in mind? Are you for real?

I think you have to take a step back if you think that gay people are okay but not if they do anything gay and they'd be better off being straight and they should really be straight but you suppose you'll tolerate them because they can't change, silly gays, oh and also people aren't allowed to get offended about you obviously mocking trans people because you were only doing it in-character, see, so really you were mocking your own character.

Sorry, but this goes past reasonable disagreement territory: You're just being a jerk and saying no-one's allowed to object because it's just your opinion/your character's opinion/what-the-hell-ever. No. Stop that. Stop being horrible to LGBT people, please.

To OP: Have your character's sexuality be whatever you want it to be, and express it how you like so long as you're not doing anything that would be creepy if they were straight. If someone objects, throw 5e PHBs at them until they go away.

GrayGriffin
2017-10-11, 09:23 AM
Given the language chosen by the player, it was a generic proactive defense of potential trans- people, not a personal thing other than that person's personal intolerance of a disapproved view.

You do realize it's a good thing to defend trans people even if there aren't any there physically, right? That's what makes you an actual ally instead of just standing up for them when they can see in order to get "brownie points" or something.

Floret
2017-10-11, 10:20 AM
You do realize it's a good thing to defend trans people even if there aren't any there physically, right? That's what makes you an actual ally instead of just standing up for them when they can see in order to get "brownie points" or something.

1. This is an incredibly important thing to realise and do. To be an ally means to stick up to bull**** when you notice it (And are safe to stick up to it), because it is bull****, not for any other reason. Sure, arguing with racist grandma might be a lost cause, so sometimes you might just have to groan and move on. But the problem with social prejudices is that they are just seeped into our thinking, nothing conscious most of the time, and therefor, speaking out against them when you notice them might point out how deep those go. And pointing out that some thinking you had not previously connected to an issue of prejudice is indeed connected can help, and help rid oneself of that prejudice.

2. However. Playing *******s in an RPG is a thing, even if you yourself aren't one. And I think playing *******s should be a thing, otherwise we lock ourselves out of an incredible amount of roleplaying opportunity. Prejudice can be an interesting thing to explore, and playing characters with weaknesses and stupid beliefs can be fun. I know all of my characters have some form of belief that I'd at least look at them sceptically for, and I honestly wouldn't wanna play a character that shares all of my views.
Obviously this needs to be clear with the other players, and everyone at the table (or otherwise in the game) has to be able to know (And possibly to be able to know and not think "probably...?") that these comments are not from the player, but from the character. And, as with prejudiced characters in other fiction, it serves well to contrast the prejudice with the fact of the prejudiced character not actually being in the right, or maybe even a hypocrite. For this it helps to have these things cleared with the group beforehand (Dark Eye for example has "Prejudiced" as a character flaw that exists - pretty easy to know when you are dealing with it, being written directly on the sheet.)
It can backfire, and a comment being taken in earnest, that happens. The thing to do is to discuss it, apologize, clear up the situation, and possibly refrain from expressing these character traits in the presence of any player still uncomfortable.

So... I can sort of understand what Segev was going for. What I cannot understand is how it isn't immediately obvious what the problem with the statement is. Seriously, that one is incredibly on the nose, and one of the most basic and common transmysogynistic statements in the book.

Also, it's important to remember that everyone has different limits, and people with multiple facets of identity that people might be prejudiced against might have different limits regarding each one of those facets. I know I have.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-10-11, 12:13 PM
There's nothing inherently wrong with playing a character who says offensive things.

However, when those offensive things touch on current sensitive real world issues then it becomes incumbent on you to make sure that everyone is fine OOC with it first. If people are going to get upset then it's your responsibility to avoid it. Generally speaking, I think it's best to avoid doing it until you know everyone in the group you're playing with fairly well and know how they'll react to it.

Segev
2017-10-11, 01:25 PM
To the OP: On topic, I'm glad your game went well, and that it was met with only the level of reaction it deserved. That is, it's something to RP off of, but not something to obsess over. Positively or negatively.

Deleted the rest of the post to replace it with this, which I think is more constructive than trying to expressly address the other arguments:

I don't want to care about your sexuality. I don't want to HAVE to care. If I am asked to care, and I think it unhealthy, I will be saddened. Fortunately or unfortunately for you, I am not in charge of your life, and my thoughts - right or wrong - about how healthy your choices, preferences, or urges (regardless of how much control you have over them) might be is irrelevant to whether you are healthy and happy. I wish you all happiness. I don't hate you. I may not want to discuss certain topics with you, but that should be MY choice. I doubt you want to discuss certain other topics with me; that should be your choice.

We should all advocate for people to have power over their own lives, to determine for themselves what makes them happy and healthy.

This includes people's right to think sex with people with certain equipment is gross.

rferries
2017-10-11, 01:37 PM
Tangential, but am I the only person who's bugged by how Haley does this? A bit because her bi experimenting is safely in her past, where she never so much acknowledges the attractiveness of anyone other than her hetero partner. A bit because Elan never tried saving princes to see how it went, Belkar never made a pretty boy swoon when there were no handy females around, and really I can't remember the last named LGBT+ male character in the strip. Bisexuality as a way to make a female seem more adventurous in a way that will never interfere with an existing hetero relationship is a rather annoying trope.

Yeah, it's something of a cliche but a fairly harmless one (especially given the wonders the Giant has done with V & trans/non-binary representation). I'd like more male representation myself but them's the breaks.


I'm sorry, but my sexuality is neither a choice, nor anyway comparable to alcohol consumption. This "I don't hate you I just think what you're doing is wrong" is a garbage ideology and I have no problem calling people who hold it the homophobes that they are.

A good rule of thumb!


There's nothing inherently wrong with playing a character who says offensive things.

However, when those offensive things touch on current sensitive real world issues then it becomes incumbent on you to make sure that everyone is fine OOC with it first. If people are going to get upset then it's your responsibility to avoid it. Generally speaking, I think it's best to avoid doing it until you know everyone in the group you're playing with fairly well and know how they'll react to it.

Also sage advice, for any social situation really. :)

Boci
2017-10-11, 01:37 PM
The irony here is thick enough to run across. My issue is that I'm not allowed to HAVE an opinion that isn't the approved one. Whatever the approved one is today, with this person who's judging. I'm the one not allowed to object, no matter what happens, because I'm the one guilty of badthought.

Um, yes?

"Black people are equal to white people and deserve the same respectful treatment white people receive at this table"

You cannot really have a "second opinion" there. If you genuinely disagree with the statement, you cannot help that, but in most social circles you are obliged to keep that to yourself, and others do not owe you respect and understanding for voicing your second opinion. And the same applies to:

"Members of the LBGT are equal to straight people and deserve the same respectful treatment white people receive at this table"

Dr.Samurai
2017-10-11, 01:44 PM
I'm sorry, but my sexuality is neither a choice, nor anyway comparable to alcohol consumption.
It's an analogy. Maybe a bad one. The greater point is that you can not agree with or approve of everything about a person, and still respect them, accept them, socialize with them, etc. The jump from "doesn't agree with homosexuality" to "this person doesn't accept me as a human and hates me" is astronomical in scale.

This "I don't hate you I just think what you're doing is wrong" is a garbage ideology and I have no problem calling people who hold it the homophobes that they are.
Because you equate "doesn't agree" with "hate" and "phobia". If you have no problem doing that, of course you have no problem calling everyone that disagrees with you a homophone.

I don't care if I'm making these people feel unwelcome and uncomfortable,
Well, the OP does, that's why the thread exists. Segev was asking in turn how the OP would feel if the players didn't react positively. I think that's a good question to ask, because hurt feelings could be felt all around. It's something to consider, because the OP may be worried about making other people uncomfortable, and unknowingly walk into an uncomfortable situation for herself.

because I won't shut up and pretend to be straight for their backwards sensabilities
No one asked you to. The pretending is in the roleplaying. In my experience, sexuality is not something that's ever really explored at the table, or expected to be a thing at the table. So it makes sense to be apprehensive about making it an aspect of your character that comes up often enough to worry about making things awkward.

That would certainly "cause any awkwardness", to quote the OP, right? If you portray the sexuality, someone expresses discomfort, and it ends up hurting *your* feelings and making *you* feel weird.

Segev
2017-10-11, 01:48 PM
Um, yes?

"Black people are equal to white people and deserve the same respectful treatment white people receive at this table"

You cannot really have a "second opinion" there. If you genuinely disagree with the statement, you cannot help that, but in most social circles you are obliged to keep that to yourself, and others do not owe you respect and understanding for voicing your second opinion. And the same applies to:

"Members of the LBGT are equal to straight people and deserve the same respectful treatment white people receive at this table"

And the straw men come out.

Nobody suggested that equality of treatment wasn't valid. The trouble comes when "equality" starts becoming cover for "special treatment."

In another thread on this board, I was just in a lengthy debate with people who felt that my idea of treating black and white people with the same respect was inherently racist, because I didn't want to have to know what color somebody's skin was before I determined how to treat them. Color-blindness, see, is apparently racist, because some races need to be given special privileges or given different standards to meet in order to treat them equally to others.

There was no "inequality" towards trans- people in what happened, other than in the minds of those who wish to interpret it as hateful towards such people.

Unless you're going to say that nobody has a right to prefer particular "equipment" and be grossed out when they are presented a bait-and-switch. (Admittedly, not intentional on any PCs' part in this case, but the point remains.)

Anymage
2017-10-11, 01:53 PM
To the OP: On topic, I'm glad your game went well, and that it was met with only the level of reaction it deserved. That is, it's something to RP off of, but not something to obsess over. Positively or negatively.

I thought about adding a similar idea in my comment to the OP, but realized that it would be counterproductive. An immature player and/or one who's a self-centered narcissist can make any even marginally sensitive topic uncomfortable. However, someone who's asking a question like this in the first place is probably going to err on the side of being more conscientious than less, and telling them to avoid immature/narcissistic behavior will most likely result in them overcorrecting.

Not touching on the broader topic here. But sometimes telling someone "don't be a jerk" is counterproductive in situations where a jerk wouldn't be asking for advice in the first place.

Segev
2017-10-11, 01:54 PM
Dr. Samurai, thank you for your explanation of where I'm coming from.

However, this typo makes me laugh:


calling everyone that disagrees with you a homophone.

I desperately wish I could come up with a good pun involving homophones (as most do) that is pertinent to this topic, but sadly, my usually pun-filled brain is failing me on this issue!




Otherwise, what he said is pretty on the nose for what I was getting at. I can disagree with your preferences and not hate you. I can't stand Mexican food (there's a spice or something in it that is just hideous to my taste buds), but that doesn't mean that those who love it have to hate me for my preference. I like gaming; this doesn't mean people who think gaming is a habit that will tempt me to satan worship have to hate ME, though if they care about me they might (annoyingly) try to talk me out of indulging my preference for D&D.

I can disapprove of people's actions, beliefs, preferences, and choices without hating them. I try not to preach at them, either, as I know that's annoying. But if I'm asked for my opinion, I will give it. All I ask is for similar courtesy.

Trying to hunt for coded signs of hatred from me is irksome, because I assure you: if I hate you, I will let you know to your face. I won't pretend otherwise. I am not one for obfuscation (except, possibly, as a rhetorical tactic in a debate where emotions are highly charged and I'm trying to distance emotions from the logical process). This is sometimes frustrating in gaming, because I don't RP deceit very well, which means I have to rely heavily on roll-play to get anything like a bluff across.

Boci
2017-10-11, 01:54 PM
And the straw men come out.

Nobody suggested that equality of treatment wasn't valid. The trouble comes when "equality" starts becoming cover for "special treatment."

More often, the trouble is when people confuse a minorities equality for special treatment. People don't bat an eye when the male barbarians flirts with tavern wench, but do a double take when the male bard flirts with a male guard.

Saying "accept me" isn't asking for special treatment, it just seems like special treatment when a member of the LGBT asks for it because that draws attention to the whole thing, where as straight people never have to ask, they get it automatically, which means the process isn't noticed.

Segev
2017-10-11, 01:55 PM
But sometimes telling someone "don't be a jerk" is counterproductive in situations where a jerk wouldn't be asking for advice in the first place.

This...is actually a very good insight. I think I understood it on some level, but I'm not sure I'd seen it put in words before. I will have to consider it a bit and try to incorporate it in my future decision-making, because...it's very true.

Dr.Samurai
2017-10-11, 02:00 PM
I desperately wish I could come up with a good pun involving homophones (as most do) that is pertinent to this topic, but sadly, my usually pun-filled brain is failing me on this issue!
LMAO, sorry for the typo lol!

Everyone, stop calling people homophones!!! :smalltongue:

Segev
2017-10-11, 02:16 PM
More often, the trouble is when people confuse a minorities equality for special treatment. People don't bat an eye when the male barbarians flirts with tavern wench, but do a double take when the male bard flirts with a male guard.

Saying "accept me" isn't asking for special treatment, it just seems like special treatment when a member of the LGBT asks for it because that draws attention to the whole thing, where as straight people never have to ask, they get it automatically, which means the process isn't noticed.

When the guard refuses the male bard because he's straight, that's seen as "oppression." When the female bar wench refuses the male barbarian because she's a lesbian, that's seen as "woman power."

Unless it isn't, and it's just because people have preferences. "Not into that" happens. The successful cassanovas and femmes fatale tend to not just be good at seduction, but also at finding seducible targets.

And I can accept you without approving of your actions or preferences. You are not your libido. (If you are, that is a personal problem that I would rather stay far, far away from.)

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-11, 02:21 PM
Everyone, stop calling people homophones!!! :smalltongue:

Your not my real dad, you can't tell me what to do!


When the guard refuses the male bard because he's straight, that's seen as "oppression." When the female bar wench refuses the male barbarian because she's a lesbian, that's seen as "woman power."

Yeah, and it's really awkward when you want to introduce certain elements, but can't because you might be accused of doing so for fan service reasons, especially if you happen to be male. This is why a lot of people who mention off hand a spouse/lover of the same gender tend to be elderly people in my games when interacting with strangers. I wonder if anyone thinks I have a fetish for grandmotherly lesbians at this point?

Boci
2017-10-11, 02:30 PM
When the guard refuses the male bard because he's straight, that's seen as "oppression." When the female bar wench refuses the male barbarian because she's a lesbian, that's seen as "woman power."

No it isn't, you're just making that up. Sure, humans some humans are unreasonable, SOME no doubt would, but most aren't. It will start to look like oppression when ALL the NPCs the guard hits on turn them down for being straight, and that's when the the inequality rears its ugly head.


And I can accept you without approving of your actions or preferences. You are not your libido. (If you are, that is a personal problem that I would rather stay far, far away from.)

Why is this even a thing? Have you ever been told by a gay person "I don't approve of your actions or preferences when it comes to sex, but I can accept you"? Of course you haven't. Why do you feel so strongly about your right to do the reverse?

icefractal
2017-10-11, 02:31 PM
I don't want to care about your sexuality. I don't want to HAVE to care.So I guess you wouldn't want to see gross oversharing like:
"I flirt with the tavern wench" (or vice versa)
"The prince's betrothed has been kidnapped by fey and replaced with an imposter."
"Before we leave town, I need to send a letter to my wife."
Anything with a succubus, nymph, etc.
Romeo and Juliet


Oh, and to make my point from earlier a bit more precise:
"Look, what you do in your own basement is up to you, even if I disapprove of it, but wearing a t-shirt with a d20 on it? Stop rubbing your unhealthy lifestyle in my face!"

Jormengand
2017-10-11, 02:32 PM
There was no "inequality" towards trans- people in what happened, other than in the minds of those who wish to interpret it as hateful towards such people.

No, I think that treating trans people like freaks is unequal no matter how you swing it. You can't act like a particular class of people are disgusting and awful and then be surprised when they're offended. I mean you can, but you look exceptionally foolish when you do.

EDIT: I also find it hilarious how much time you - who want us to know that you don't want to have to deal with people's sexualities - are devoting to talking about people's sexualities and the minutae of exactly what you think is wrong with them.

Penelomeeg
2017-10-11, 02:40 PM
It's an analogy. Maybe a bad one. The greater point is that you can not agree with or approve of everything about a person, and still respect them, accept them, socialize with them, etc. The jump from "doesn't agree with homosexuality" to "this person doesn't accept me as a human and hates me" is astronomical in scale.

Because you equate "doesn't agree" with "hate" and "phobia". If you have no problem doing that, of course you have no problem calling everyone that disagrees with you a homophone.

Well, the OP does, that's why the thread exists. Segev was asking in turn how the OP would feel if the players didn't react positively. I think that's a good question to ask, because hurt feelings could be felt all around. It's something to consider, because the OP may be worried about making other people uncomfortable, and unknowingly walk into an uncomfortable situation for herself.

No one asked you to. The pretending is in the roleplaying. In my experience, sexuality is not something that's ever really explored at the table, or expected to be a thing at the table. So it makes sense to be apprehensive about making it an aspect of your character that comes up often enough to worry about making things awkward.

That would certainly "cause any awkwardness", to quote the OP, right? If you portray the sexuality, someone expresses discomfort, and it ends up hurting *your* feelings and making *you* feel weird.

Gonna stop you right there. I do not care if I make people uncomfortable with my sexuality or about accomidating people who dislike or disagree with it. Honestly? Screw those people with a rusty fork.

I wanted a delicate way to approach to topic of sexuality so I wouldn't be accused of shoehorning it in. If anyone feels uncomfortable with a gay character in general? I leave the group.

Penelomeeg
2017-10-11, 02:44 PM
When the guard refuses the male bard because he's straight, that's seen as "oppression." When the female bar wench refuses the male barbarian because she's a lesbian, that's seen as "woman power."

Unless it isn't, and it's just because people have preferences. "Not into that" happens. The successful cassanovas and femmes fatale tend to not just be good at seduction, but also at finding seducible targets.

And I can accept you without approving of your actions or preferences. You are not your libido. (If you are, that is a personal problem that I would rather stay far, far away from.)

I have literally never seen that happen. My games I run as a DM have people pf all sexualities and hell there was even a character someone wanted to romance but then discovered they were asexual. They stayed friends and he became a story important NPC.

I have seen players rage out when they can't seduce the bar wench in some highschool games. But those were immature teens.

Floret
2017-10-11, 02:46 PM
No one asked you to. The pretending is in the roleplaying. In my experience, sexuality is not something that's ever really explored at the table, or expected to be a thing at the table. So it makes sense to be apprehensive about making it an aspect of your character that comes up often enough to worry about making things awkward.

I think this varies too widely from table to table to make such sweeping statements about it. It certainly comes up regularly in my groups. (At least in the sense of characters flirting and having relationships).
And, sexuality coming up might just be as wholly innocent and natural as talking about weekend plans with a significant other.


We should all advocate for people to have power over their own lives, to determine for themselves what makes them happy and healthy.

This includes people's right to think sex with people with certain equipment is gross.

Sex with them? Possibly. The fact they have it? No. Two different things, the statement of your character was the latter.
I mean, alright, of course, there should be the right to think it, freedom of thought and all. But not the right to say it without justified repercussion.


When the guard refuses the male bard because he's straight, that's seen as "oppression." When the female bar wench refuses the male barbarian because she's a lesbian, that's seen as "woman power."

Unless it isn't, and it's just because people have preferences. "Not into that" happens. The successful cassanovas and femmes fatale tend to not just be good at seduction, but also at finding seducible targets.

And I can accept you without approving of your actions or preferences. You are not your libido. (If you are, that is a personal problem that I would rather stay far, far away from.)

Alright, now we ventured far into strawman territory. Being rejected by someone because of their sexuality is not oppression, and I have never seen anyone honestly claim that. Now, if, in a setting that is ostensibly equal sexuality-wise, same-gender flirtation never works, but other-gender flirtation has a reasonable success rate (Over a few dozen instances at least), I might understand someone crying foul play - for the trend, not for the specific instance.

And, just to be clear, where is your line? In my gaming groups it is rather usual to have OOC chats beforehand (As we are all something close to friends at least). I'd have thought that to be a usual thing? It certainly also was in all groups I have heard of or witnessed enough. To maybe give some hypotheticals: If, in that situation, I mentioned plans for the next day with my girlfriend, on which side would that fall, and would it fall on another side if I talked about my boyfriend instead? If I am freshly in love, and talk about my new girlfriend, while you knew another player in the round was my boyfriend, and he seemed not to mind that fact, on which side of the line would that fall?
None of this is actually sexual (Just, talking about relationships). But all of it are things that I know people who say "no, I accept you, but" somehow treat as such. As more taboo than the alternatives. I will not stop being the way I am - and I don't wanna hide it, and just share important parts of my life with friends. People who make the same statements as you misconstrue this as something else - can you at least understand why such a statement might make us wary, if the above things have been shouted down as "shoving sexuality in someones face"?

rferries
2017-10-11, 02:46 PM
No it isn't, you're just making that up. Sure, humans some humans are unreasonable, SOME no doubt would, but most aren't. It will start to look like oppression when ALL the NPCs the guard hits on turn them down for being straight, and that's when the the inequality rears its ugly head.

I feel like Sense Motive could be used to check if it's worth hitting on someone or not :D

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-11, 02:56 PM
Alright, now we ventured far into strawman territory. Being rejected by someone because of their sexuality is not oppression, and I have never seen anyone honestly claim that...


REALLY!??!!?! I've seen it in real life! Do...Do you just not know what a neckbeard is? Have you never encountered one of these magnificent creatures in the wild?

Penelomeeg
2017-10-11, 03:00 PM
Dr. Samurai, thank you for your explanation of where I'm coming from.

However, this typo makes me laugh:



I desperately wish I could come up with a good pun involving homophones (as most do) that is pertinent to this topic, but sadly, my usually pun-filled brain is failing me on this issue!




Otherwise, what he said is pretty on the nose for what I was getting at. I can disagree with your preferences and not hate you. I can't stand Mexican food (there's a spice or something in it that is just hideous to my taste buds), but that doesn't mean that those who love it have to hate me for my preference. I like gaming; this doesn't mean people who think gaming is a habit that will tempt me to satan worship have to hate ME, though if they care about me they might (annoyingly) try to talk me out of indulging my preference for D&D.

I can disapprove of people's actions, beliefs, preferences, and choices without hating them. I try not to preach at them, either, as I know that's annoying. But if I'm asked for my opinion, I will give it. All I ask is for similar courtesy.

Trying to hunt for coded signs of hatred from me is irksome, because I assure you: if I hate you, I will let you know to your face. I won't pretend otherwise. I am not one for obfuscation (except, possibly, as a rhetorical tactic in a debate where emotions are highly charged and I'm trying to distance emotions from the logical process). This is sometimes frustrating in gaming, because I don't RP deceit very well, which means I have to rely heavily on roll-play to get anything like a bluff across.

Also I'm not saying this out of any anger or negativity towards you, because I honestly don't bother being any at people for these sorts of things because its not worth it, but you are expressing homophobic viewpoints.

Homophobia isn't just picketing pride events and shouting "ew gays!" Every chance you get. There's varying degrees just like racist ideaology. It's also in those involuntary reactions like scrunching your nose at a gay couple, or saying you "disagree with it".

I think the reason you don't comprehend the reaction to what you consider a middle ground is really it's only people who think that way that consider it a middle ground. To a gay person that's indefinitely negative ground. Because hearing "I disapprove but whatever" isnt as bad as "gays burn in hell" but its still hurtful and disheartening. Because would you say that to a straight man to his face about ths woman he had married and chosen to spend ths rest of his life with and had a happy healthy relationship? Most people would say no because it'd be considered rude and you're infringing on a happy situation you don't need to. That's how "I dissapprove" feels to us.

We dont want people to celebrate or congradulate us for being gay. We want to be accepted and treated equally. We want to when people look at us to not register us as any different than a straight person or have any differing opinions on our sexuality/gender than they would a straight/cis person.

We dont have parades to shove it in your face or force people to celebrate us. We do it so we can have one day where we're surrounded by people who understand and accept us and we can be proud that we put up with varying degrees of bull**** and still manage to be here another day going through life like everbody else.

Just ask yourself this: if there was an integral part of yourself that you couldn't change but you knew you would be judged for most of your life and could even lead to you having a more difficult life than most people...wouldn't it frustrate you? Make you a little more wary and snappish towards people whp remind you of that disadvantahe even slightly? How would it feel to you?

Max_Killjoy
2017-10-11, 03:11 PM
Why is this even a thing? Have you ever been told by a gay person "I don't approve of your actions or preferences when it comes to sex, but I can accept you"? Of course you haven't. Why do you feel so strongly about your right to do the reverse?


I seem to recall some of the homosexual activists at the university I attended referring to all heterosexuals as "breeders" and "meat cattle"... and to bisexuals as "confused and playing straight"... but still "accepting" them. :smalleek:

Boci
2017-10-11, 03:14 PM
I seem to recall some of the homosexual activists at the university I attended referring to all heterosexuals as "breeders" and "meat cattle"... and to bisexuals as "confused and playing straight"... but still "accepting" them. :smalleek:

And that was intolerant of them. By Segev's logic though that's fine, because they accepted them.

Penelomeeg
2017-10-11, 03:45 PM
I seem to recall some of the homosexual activists at the university I attended referring to all heterosexuals as "breeders" and "meat cattle"... and to bisexuals as "confused and playing straight"... but still "accepting" them. :smalleek:

This is actually an issue in the homosexual community. There's those "vocal minorities" that a lot of people want to see quiet down more because they make the community worse while swearing their improving it.

icefractal
2017-10-11, 04:20 PM
I seem to recall some of the homosexual activists at the university I attended referring to all heterosexuals as "breeders" and "meat cattle"... and to bisexuals as "confused and playing straight"... but still "accepting" them. :smalleek:Yeah, and those people are jerks. I wouldn't invite them to an RPG group either.

2D8HP
2017-10-11, 05:03 PM
I wonder if anyone thinks I have a fetish for grandmotherly lesbians at this point?


:confused:

You mean some people don't?





Gonna stop you right there. I do not care if I make people uncomfortable with....
....If anyone feels uncomfortable with a gay character in general? I leave the group.


Sounds like a wise policy.

I don't remember anyone voicing anti-gay (or anti-anything) opinions at a gaming table (but that may be because most of my table memories are dim), but I've found that my co-workers who are outspoken about being "anti" (whether because of who someone loves, what there skin shade is, where they go on a weekend morning, etc.), are never just that. "He's a bigot against [whatever] but otherwise he's cool" just doesn't really happen in my experience. I have worked with some guys who were nice to me but mean to someone else (for no reason I could discern) who did not our share skin shade making me suspect that disperate treatment was happening, that is not what I'm talking about, what I mean is that in my experience anyone who flat out says "I don't like those [whatever]", is always an annoying jerk to me in some other way as well, even when I'm not in the group they say they dislike (maybe you have to voice similar hate for them to not be a jerk to you, I haven't tested that).

Whenever I've had to work with vocal bigots, they have always found a way to annoy me besides their bigotry, every single time (admittedly my sample is only with building trades guys).

LibraryOgre
2017-10-11, 05:39 PM
The Mod Wonder: Oh, look, we've wandered into politics. Since the original issue has been resolved, we'll just lock this and I'll start handing out the warnings, hmm?