Summoned/conjured creatures act immediately?

[rigolgm]

Our team's Druid summoned/conjured animals (four black bears) for the first time. He rolled their initiative and it was slightly higher than his own.

Their initiative roll would seem to mean they wouldn't act that round (because the round had already moved to people with lower initiative rolls).

The DM ruled that the animals immediately act in that situation. He and the player didn't feel that the player should be penalised by his animals rolling high for initiative.

Is that right? It seemed wrong to me - especially as the bears immediately wrecked our opponents! Should the bears have waited until the next round?

[hymer]

Our team's Druid summoned/conjured animals (four black bears) for the first time. He rolled their initiative and it was slightly higher than his own.

Their initiative roll would seem to mean they wouldn't act that round (because the round had already moved to people with lower initiative rolls).

The DM ruled that the animals immediately act in that situation. He and the player didn't feel that the player should be penalised by his animals rolling high for initiative.

Is that right? It seemed wrong to me - especially as the bears immediately wrecked our opponents! Should the bears have waited until the next round?

The initiative rules state that all creatures roll initiative at the beginning of the fight, and so do not specify what happens when creatures join the fight partway through. So your DM is perfectly free to rule as he likes without conflicting with the rules.
I like your DM's reasoning, for what it's worth.

[Parra]

I probably would have just given them the same initiative as the summoner or maybe 1 worse

[Sigreid]

We always give summoned creatures the same initiative as their summoner. If I have to give a reason it's because they aren't going to so anything until told.

[Contrast]

He and the player didn't feel that the player should be penalised by his animals rolling high for initiative.

Is that right? It seemed wrong to me - especially as the bears immediately wrecked our opponents! Should the bears have waited until the next round?

They're not being penalised by being put at the top of next round instead of the bottom of the current round. All initiative does is determine which order you act in, it doesn't give extra turns. If they'd rolled lower they would act once before the wizard next acts. If they'd rolled higher, they'd act once before the wizard next acts. Your DM let them act twice before the wizard next acted.

[hymer]

They're not being penalised by being put at the top of next round instead of the bottom of the current round. All initiative does is determine which order you act in, it doesn't give extra turns. If they'd rolled lower they would act once before the wizard next acts. If they'd rolled higher, they'd act once before the wizard next acts. Your DM let them act twice before the wizard next acted.

I don't think you got that right. Here's how I see the situation, albeit with made-up numbers:

Initiative in the current fight
20 - Newly appeared bears at hard DM ruling
15 - Summoning druid
14 - Newly appeared bears at lenient DM ruling
10 - Enemies

It is currently the druid's turn. If the DM puts the bears at the top of the order, it won't be their turn until after the enemies have acted. If he puts them between the enemies and the caster, the bears will get to act before the enemies.

[Slipperychicken]

I'd make them act on the summoner's initiative, so we don't end up skipping them.

I'd be okay with giving them "summoning sickness" until the summoner's next turn. That represents the monsters taking in their surroundings and coming to understand the situation, telling friend from foe, and so on. That gives combatants a chance to react, which may be more fair than just having them mauled before they can do anything.

[Contrast]

I don't think you got that right. Here's how I see the situation, albeit with made-up numbers:

Initiative in the current fight
20 - Newly appeared bears at hard DM ruling
15 - Summoning druid
14 - Newly appeared bears at lenient DM ruling
10 - Enemies

It is currently the druid's turn. If the DM puts the bears at the top of the order, it won't be their turn until after the enemies have acted. If he puts them between the enemies and the caster, the bears will get to act before the enemies.

I was working on the assumption that when he said he had them act immediately he meant 'keep their initiative roll in addition to acting immediately' whereas you read it is 'put them on the next step in the initiative order instead of keeping their initiative roll'. In retrospect I'm not sure its clear which one is what happened.

All I'll say there is that and the other people saying the summons should have the same initiative as the spellcaster is that the spell does explicitly call out that the conjured animals should roll their own initiative (this is relevant for things like getting them to move out of the way of AOE effects the spellcaster may want to lay down and the like). I wouldn't personally have any objection if the DM wanted to group them acting after the player for simplicity. If has its pros and cons and as long as the NPCs spells work the same way its not a big deal.

[rigolgm]

Yes, the rules do say the summoned/conjured creatures roll for initiative. I could have made that clearer in my original post.

So my question remains. Why not just have the summoned creatures act on their initiative? I don't think it's unfair to them. They rolled high for initiative so were about to act very soon. Allowing them to also act when summoned gave them two rounds very closer together, with some characters (my ranger etc) not getting to act in between them because we had lower initiative than them (but higher than the druid).

[Tanarii]

They're not being penalised by being put at the top of next round instead of the bottom of the current round. All initiative does is determine which order you act in, it doesn't give extra turns. If they'd rolled lower they would act once before the wizard next acts. If they'd rolled higher, they'd act once before the wizard next acts. Your DM let them act twice before the wizard next acted.
This. So much this. They will always act once before the summoner acts again. The DM in question doesn't understand rounds and cyclic initiative if he thinks the player is being penalized somehow.

What's important in regards to summoned creatures is what they roll relative to the enemy initiative. Will they act before or after the enemy does? This is usually an important question. (Not always. But usually.) And even then, it's not a question of if they or the enemy act on this 'round' or the next 'round'.

edit:
So my question remains. Why not just have the summoned creatures act on their initiative? I don't think it's unfair to them. They rolled high for initiative so were about to act very soon. Allowing them to also act when summoned gave them two rounds very closer together, with some characters (my ranger etc) not getting to act in between them because we had lower initiative than them (but higher than the druid).
Yeah, if your DM allowed them to act immediately AND on the rolled initiative, he screwed up. At the very least, he should have shifted the creatures to the caster's initiative.

(BTW in case I'm coming across too judgmental ... I've made FAR worse mechanical judgement call mistakes than this. :smallwink: )

[suplee215]

I don't see it as the creatures getting an extra turn as you do. I always played with it as the summons going on the same initiative anyways which get identical results.

[Contrast]

I don't see it as the creatures getting an extra turn as you do.

So if some enemies came in as reinforcements at the end of the round, you would be fine with the DM having them act when they came in (because they rolled high and had 'missed out') and then again at the start of the new round?

How does getting two turns before anyone else gets a turn not constitute an extra turn? :smallconfused:


I always played with it as the summons going on the same initiative anyways which get identical results.

As I mentioned above, having them act on the same initiative is relevant because it lets the caster move/control them in the middle of their turn which does change things. If you're going to do this, at the least give them a separate turn immediately after the spell caster.

[suplee215]

So if some enemies came in as reinforcements at the end of the round, you would be fine with the DM having them act when they came in (because they rolled high and had 'missed out') and then again at the start of the new round?


Yes. One can easily fluff it as the new enemies readying their turn.

[Contrast]

Yes. One can easily fluff it as the new enemies readying their turn.

If reinforcements were in a position to ready an action they should have rolled initiative already.

What about a situation where they can't reasonably be expected to have readied an action? Like being teleported in unexpectedly? Like some kind of summon spell? :smalltongue:

Edit -

Lets say goblin 1 is asleep and rolls 20 initiative while goblin 2 is awake and rolls 10. Party walks into the room at initiative 15. Goblin 2 wakes goblin 1 up. Should goblin 1 immediately get a turn because he 'missed out'?

According to you yes.

Now lets say both goblins are awake. When party gets to go party member casts sleep and goblin 1 falls asleep. Goblin 2 wakes him up and also yells to goblins in room next door. Reinforcing goblins roll 21 initiative.

I assume you agree goblin 1 shouldn't get a turn when he wakes up in addition to his regular turn even though the situation is functionally identical to the previous one in rules terms.

Why should the reinforcing goblins now get two turns? They spent their action last turn faffing around cooking and arguing, unaware combat was going on.