Can someone help me settle a bit of an argument?

[Buufreak]

A game was purposed with the premise of "be a demon or devil, go against another team of players, get full outsider package stacked onto gestalt of 25, anything not an infinite loop is allowed." The DM currently thinks that epic spellcasting won't be an issue, under the premise "if you can do it, so can the other team." While accurate, I'm trying to express that no amount of plot armor is going to stop this game from being a horrible train wreck, despite the numerous times being told "super riddles can't be scry'd against," because apparently, these riddles are the most important thing and obviously have to be what I am having an issue with understanding.

[zlefin]

If both teams can do it, and one does and the other doesn't, it's going to be a stomp (at least if you abuse it with mitigation). Epic play in general makes variances in optimization more pronounced; it requires careful curation to ensure all are at a vaguely similar level. And if he's allowing nearly anything, that allows for some very extreme shenanigans.

But we can't "settle" the argument, because that DM doesn't recognize us as an authority.

[Fizban]

Protip: anytime you tell a group of people "anything goes," you guarantee that at least one of those people is going to ruin it for the others.

And man, the hubris in assuming that you can not only handle the input of half a dozen or more other gamers of similar intellect to your own, with no restrictions, all competing against each other, but also force it into some sort of campaign idea where your "super riddles" matter. Two groups of players told to go nuts at each other with a bunch of nigh-freeform rules and loopholes is not going to "balance" things out, it multiplies the complexity exponentially, from a starting point that few if any people could actually handle in the first place (anything goes for a single party is already a farce).

So either your players are all going to limit themselves, or one of them is going to go further than the others and you're done before you begin.

[unseenmage]

Time Dragon from Dragon Magazine.

While everyone else is getting infinite Solars with epic spell mitigation I just want a Great Wurm Time Dragon's ability to ignore the passage of time.
Well that, and the Teleport Through Time Spell. Everything from that point on is just gravy.


After I had this epiphany everytime I read the words 'anything goes' I mentally add 'right out the window'.

My advice is to just not bother and go play something fun instead.

[RoboEmperor]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527192-Did-I-make-myself-invincible-(Epic-Spells)&p=22088907#post22088907

Pull this in your game and just watch as neither side can kill each other assuming all PCs and NPCs pull this stunt.

[Psyren]

Protip: anytime you tell a group of people "anything goes," you guarantee that at least one of those people is going to ruin it for the others.

And man, the hubris in assuming that you can not only handle the input of half a dozen or more other gamers of similar intellect to your own, with no restrictions, all competing against each other, but also force it into some sort of campaign idea where your "super riddles" matter. Two groups of players told to go nuts at each other with a bunch of nigh-freeform rules and loopholes is not going to "balance" things out, it multiplies the complexity exponentially, from a starting point that few if any people could actually handle in the first place (anything goes for a single party is already a farce).

So either your players are all going to limit themselves, or one of them is going to go further than the others and you're done before you begin.

Adding to this, 3e/PF is just not designed for PvP. I'd suggest a better system, but if I wanted to pvp I wouldn't be playing a TTRPG to begin with.

[unseenmage]

Adding to this, 3e/PF is just not designed for PvP. I'd suggest a better system, but if I wanted to pvp I wouldn't be playing a TTRPG to begin with.

Wholeheartedly agree.

With the right levels of optimization even the lower levels devolve into rocket tag.
Might as well just rockpaperscissors to resolve disputes.

[Buufreak]

So either your players are all going to limit themselves, or one of them is going to go further than the others and you're done before you begin.


My advice is to just not bother and go play something fun instead.

Sadly, I'm caught between these two, either wanting to go over the top of over the top, or to just sit back and watch the trainwreck...

[Goaty14]

Note that epic spellcasting has to go past the DM before it actually becomes a spell (even if the spell is nonepic) and the DM can put in an ad hoc spellcraft DC to make it harder.

Also epic spells take a long time, xp, gold, and tears to develop, so if the spellcraft DC doesn't hurt you, the price will.

[RoboEmperor]

Note that epic spellcasting has to go past the DM before it actually becomes a spell (even if the spell is nonepic) and the DM can put in an ad hoc spellcraft DC to make it harder.

Also epic spells take a long time, xp, gold, and tears to develop, so if the spellcraft DC doesn't hurt you, the price will.

Price never hurts you. All epic spells are 0 dc 0xp 0gp. Time is the only factor and that can be shortened by level 9 spell shenanigans.

[Buufreak]

Price never hurts you. All epic spells are 0 dc 0xp 0gp. Time is the only factor and that can be shortened by level 9 spell shenanigans.

Definitely this. The spell "I win, because I win" can be developed very easily and in roughly 1 day's time, because that is the bare minimum. Beyond that, being a wizard 25//cleric 25, you have enough spells to just dump the crap into it to make everything else zero out.

[RoboEmperor]

I personally would teach the DM a lesson and abuse everything and ruin the whole experience. PvP is not for d&d and the sooner you teach this to the DM the better. When you pull a stunt like complete invincibility from everything or instant death of everything or gate in an army of epic outsiders like hecatoncheries by boosting your CL sky high and oneshot the entire opposing team within a celerity, other players are gonna complain, DM's gonna complain, and then the DM will tack on more restriction after restriction and if he finally tells you to tone it down because you're ruining everyone's experience and hogging the game, you tell him you don't know how to weaken yourself just enough to barely win, and maybe he'll finally learn d&d is not PvP and give up.

Gate alone is more than enough to be instant win and wizard25/cleric25 is not gonna have a problem even without touching epic spells, especially if they go some sort of CL skyrocketing trick.

Seems like the DM didn't do any research about epic level games so you punish him for being lazy.

[Fouredged Sword]

Just epic spell yourself into your own alip. Be immune to everything but yourself.

[JNAProductions]

Just epic spell yourself into your own alip. Be immune to everything but yourself.

Aleax. Allip is a basic undead.

[Goaty14]

Price never hurts you. All epic spells are 0 dc 0xp 0gp. Time is the only factor and that can be shortened by level 9 spell shenanigans.

...no? I have never heard of level 9 shenanigans. Additionally; you seem to forget that the DM gets the ultra ability to determine whether or not an epic spell has the ability to exist, and can jump the spellcraft DC on a whim.

Seriously, even if your spellcraft is NI; you still have to pay Xp, gold, and time and you basically can't fudge time without asking the DM to drop rocks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

...no? I have never heard of level 9 shenanigans. Additionally; you seem to forget that the DM gets the ultra ability to determine whether or not an epic spell has the ability to exist, and can jump the spellcraft DC on a whim.

Seriously, even if your spellcraft is NI; you still have to pay Xp, gold, and time and you basically can't fudge time without asking the DM to drop rocks.Meh. someonenoone11 is correct; epic spells cost absolutely nothing through mitigation, and even the time component can be circumvented via fast-time plane shenanigans.

[ATHATH]

Yeah, I'd recommend a different system to this DM and/or have him impose some sort of optimization limits on his players.

[RoboEmperor]

...no? I have never heard of level 9 shenanigans. Additionally; you seem to forget that the DM gets the ultra ability to determine whether or not an epic spell has the ability to exist, and can jump the spellcraft DC on a whim.

Seriously, even if your spellcraft is NI; you still have to pay Xp, gold, and time and you basically can't fudge time without asking the DM to drop rocks.

I take it you never read a single epic spellcasting optimization thread.

1. Gating in a Solar adds a -17 spellcraft DC reduction.
2. Wizard 25/Cleric25 has 8 gates in total.
3. 8 x -17 = -136DC to epic spell DC.
4. Doesn't have to be gate. Planar Binding lets you bind an outsider for 1day/CL. Bind Planetars 14hd. Since the OP is an outsider, he can grab the Infernal Bargainer feat to get a +2hd to his planar binding spell, allowing him to bind planetars with the 6th level spell Planar Binding.
5. Best case scenario a Wizard25/Cleric25 can bind 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 36 Planetars a day.
6. Maximum planetars he can bind is 36 x 25 = 900 planetars.
7. That results in 900 x -17 = -15,300DC to your Spellcraft DC. Even half that is 7,650DC.
8. Transform Seed + Dispel Seed = Epic Spell that transforms me into any creature. I retain my ex abilities and gain the new form's ex and su abilities.
9. Transform into Tarrasque (69DC) then Adamantine Golem (45DC) then a half undead creature (45 DC) then an abomination of your choice.
10. Make the epic spell 10min cast time (-20) and change range to personal (-2), That means 69 - 22 = 47, 47/17 = 3 planetars. With 3 planetars I can create each transformation spell in 1 day at 0DC, 0gp, 0xp, and 1 day. I don't need Infernal Bargainer or Gate. Just Greater Planar Binding alone lets me bind 3 planetars easy.
11. End result, in 4 days I have made myself take only nonlethal damage (Regeneration (Ex)), immune to nonlethal damage (Dead Nerves (Ex)), immune to all spells that require SR (Spell Immunity (Ex)), and immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any form-altering attack, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), and one of five energy types (Abominaiton Immunities (Ex)). No creature in d&d existence can harm me in anyway possible. PCs might if they grab very obscure SR:NO save or dies, but not NPCs, not even epic creatures.

And I am told this is far from using epic spells to their true destructive potential.

Epic spells cost 9000gp x 0DC = 0gp.
Epic spells cost 0gp/25 = 0xp.

Double the DC? Who cares. I can do that. Bind more planetars. You seethat I can hit 15,300DC right? Higher with magic items. Double the cost? 0 x 2 = 0. You can increase the cost 999999999999 fold and it wouldn't matter to me. 0DC epic spells cost 0gp and 0xp and at most 1 day.

I don't want to sound mean but at least do a 1minute google search before making claims.

Fyi I hit that 15,300DC with level 6 spell shenanigans.

[Goaty14]

I checked the thread the OP mentions, and epic spellcasting isn't allowed. What else could break the game?

Quote for clairifying



Ban List
All Celerity line spells
Any “infinite loop” combinations
Wraithstrike and Power Attack may not be used in conjunction.
Any “hide in plain sight’ power
Divine metamagic is available, and the Extra Turn feat is available, however any other method of increasing “turn” numbers is not
Metamagic: Persist
Ur-Priest
Epic Spellcasting.

[RoboEmperor]

I checked the thread the OP mentions, and epic spellcasting isn't allowed. What else could break the game?

Quote for clairifying

Ubercharge. Mailman. Time Stop + Mailman.

edit: That ban list sounds reasonable? D&d still shouldn't be pvp, but it seems the DM wants an epic blood war fight and made players create the fight for him. Incantatrix his ass.

[unseenmage]

Theres always Diplomancy and skill check boosting magics.

Only takes 2 Diplomacy checks to convert someone to your religion according to the Power of Faerun book.

Ask nicely enough and your new "friend" will even die for you thanks to the Fanatic attitude in the Epic Level Handbook.

[Fouredged Sword]

Be a red wizard with leadership. Use your level 6 followers to prep a wish spell heightened to an absurd degree. Scribe that spell into a scroll. Hand that scroll to your factotum cohort and have him turn it into a sr no effect as he reads it. Your opponent must pass a silly high dc will save or be teleported into the stomach of the dead baby god moon thing in elder evils.

Or less evil and more effective, into a vat of quintessence for safe storage.

[Doctor Despair]

PCs might if they grab very obscure SR:NO save or dies, but not NPCs, not even epic creatures.


As a specific example, bards can take Music of the Gods and fascinate/suggest just about anything to anyone, making enemies lower their defenses, etc.

That is assuming of course you even allow yourself to be put in a situation where you ever interact with other creatures who might have obscure abilities like this rather than cloistering yourself away in a demiplane and sending off clones, simalacrums, astral projections, etc. The enemy can and should do this as well which leaves us in an awkward situation where no character is ever in any real danger. I suppose that's the concept that spawned the Xorvintaal game of acting through proxies and influencing world events: not fear of injury, but inability of anyone at that level to hurt anyone else.

[Fouredged Sword]

As a specific example, bards can take Music of the Gods and fascinate/suggest just about anything to anyone, making enemies lower their defenses, etc.

That is assuming of course you even allow yourself to be put in a situation where you ever interact with other creatures who might have obscure abilities like this rather than cloistering yourself away in a demiplane and sending off clones, simalacrums, astral projections, etc. The enemy can and should do this as well which leaves us in an awkward situation where no character is ever in any real danger. I suppose that's the concept that spawned the Xorvintaal game of acting through proxies and influencing world events: not fear of injury, but inability of anyone at that level to hurt anyone else.

That is why SR no wishes are best used to lift people out of safe demiplanes and put them into vats of quintessence in Am fields, freezing them and all their contingencies in time. Whoever can wish all his enemies capable of SR.no wishes into vats fastest wins.

[Doctor Despair]

That is why SR no wishes are best used to lift people out of safe demiplanes and put them into vats of quintessence in Am fields, freezing them and all their contingencies in time. Whoever can wish all his enemies capable of SR.no wishes into vats fastest wins.

If we know about them. We never learn about the smart casters that use the Xorvintaal game and God Blooded of Vecna to disappear from history without a trace.

[Fizban]

I suppose that's the concept that spawned the Xorvintaal game of acting through proxies and influencing world events: not fear of injury, but inability of anyone at that level to hurt anyone else.
Which is funny, because dragons are terrible casters that would have the most difficulty reaching that position of untouchableness (comparatively speaking), while their well-known habits make them easily manipulated pawns. But it's a dragon game. Unless I'm missing some note that non-dragons can make their way in.

[Doctor Despair]

Which is funny, because dragons are terrible casters that would have the most difficulty reaching that position of untouchableness (comparatively speaking), while their well-known habits make them easily manipulated pawns. But it's a dragon game. Unless I'm missing some note that non-dragons can make their way in.

Technically you have to be a dragon to be a player. Their moves are unable to be predicted by any means. However, if you can convince or coerce a dragon to make your schemes part of their "move", your future actions should also become unpredictable. At it's most efficient, this might mean convincing a dragon to conspire with you so that you can increase your power and influence for its benefit at a later date, but that the dragon must forget about you to make it effective. This requires the charisma to persuade the dragon or enough power already that your use might be self-evident -- both of which a caster should have in large supply.

[Fouredged Sword]

Or, you know, mindswitch your way into a dragon.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yet another thing that Dragonwrought kobold spellcasters excel at.

[Psyren]

If we know about them. We never learn about the smart casters that use the Xorvintaal game and God Blooded of Vecna to disappear from history without a trace.

I'm not sure subjecting yourself to unfathomable torture in Vecna's Oubliette qualifies you as "smart." It seems to me that anyone who makes it out of that is practically going to end up an NPC anyway.

[Fouredged Sword]

I'm not sure subjecting yourself to unfathomable torture in Vecna's Oubliette qualifies you as "smart." It seems to me that anyone who makes it out of that is practically going to end up an NPC anyway.

Nah, you mindswitch some poor sod into your body and send then in to endure it. Switch back afterwords to enjoy your new template without memories of torture.

[Psyren]

Nah, you mindswitch some poor sod into your body and send then in to endure it. Switch back afterwords to enjoy your new template without memories of torture.

Assuming you're using the temporary one, there's no word on how long the torture lasts before the template is gained.

Assuming you're using the permanent one, too late, you already forgot he exists.

[Buufreak]

I checked the thread the OP mentions, and epic spellcasting isn't allowed. What else could break the game?

Quote for clairifying

This quote generated after this thread was created, which further, if you would look at the bottom of the quoted reference, you would see the edit time stamp, as their ban list was updated after the creation of this thread.