Goblins and Barghests - What's the Connection?

[Eldan]

So, a barghest, in D&D, is a kind of wolf-like fiend that can transform into a wolf or goblin shape. I'm wondering... why? Why goblins ,specifically?

Sure, goblins ride wolves, the connection might be there, but that's rather tenuous. And apart from that...

The mythological barghest is a ghost or spirit in the shape of a large, vicious black dog. Pretty standard. From a cursory reading, I haven't found anything in mythology that indicates they have any humanoid shape apart from one case where one apparently could also look like a headless man. No indication of goblin or fey association at all.

They can't be anything like reincarnated goblins, the goblin afterlife is in Acheron, while Barghests come from Gehenna, two planes away. Nevertheless, Planescape mentions that goblins will worship Barghests.

So, does anyone know more? Any adventures, dragon articles, novels that ever go into this strange association?

[Grim Portent]

In 5e at least Barghests were created by the General of Gehenna to punish the goblins after Maglubiyet failed to uphold his part of some kind of alliance. Their purpose is to hunt and kill powerful goblins and drag their souls to the Yugoloths, so when one shows up goblins all bow and scrape and worship the thing to try and convince it they aren't important enough to kill. The Barghest prefers to kill powerful goblins only because the more powerful the souls the claim the more likely they are to get promoted to being an actual Yugoloth themselves.

Don't know if that was the case prior to 5e, I don't recall reading anything else about the why, how and what of Barghests before other than that eating humanoids made them stronger in 3.5. The 5e explanation to me comes across as them deciding to finally try and make something unexplained make sense.

From a meta perspective it's actually quite odd they gave it the ability to shapeshift to goblins, but then D&Ds never stuck close to mythological or folkloric accuracy. It might have just been that someone wanted a shapeshifting baby-demon to lead a goblin tribe for a twist and plucked the name Barghest out of a book.

[Eldan]

That definitely sounds like something that would have been in the Planescape entry somewhere, but no preference for eating goblins or connection to the Yugoloth is mentioned. So, probably new to 5E. Still, a nice piece of fluff that might fit into the picture. Thanks.

Edit: the meta- reason for why they transform into goblins is probably just something along the lines of "Gary Gygax needed something scary and wolf-like to run a goblin tribe in one adventure, so he looked up some names of wolflike spirits."

[Psyren]

*chants*

afroakuma, afroakuma, afroakuma...

While we wait for him, I'll provide the Golarion explanation... which isn't much. "They're related" sums it up.

[Tanarii]

"On the plane of Gehenna, barghests "live in isolation from one another, each having its own stronghold and force of servitors, ruling a smoking rift despotically," according to the article. When a barghest spawns, it sends its litter of six to the Prime Material Plane to feed. These whelps will live alone or in pairs near isolated human communities or with goblin bands, retaining their natural form amongst goblins. Barghests are almost indistinguishable from goblins by other races, except that a barghest's eyes glow orange when the creature becomes excited; in canine form a barghest can become very difficult to notice when motionless, and is almost "impossible to tell from a normal dog, except that other dogs will fear and hate it, attacking at every opportunity." Goblins worship barghests, fearing and serving them and going to great lengths to provide human sacrifices; barghests, in turn, slay the powerful enemies of the goblins and generally enrich their hosts' treasure."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barghest_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

[Kol Korran]

While it' definitely not official, I made my own revision of the barghest a looong time ago, in my first project. It includes my own (somewhat different) explanation of their origins, connection to goblins and wolves, and other features.
Quite a few people wrote to me, having found it intriguing and an interesting read...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?81051-Monster-Compedium-for-the-maligned-forgotten-amp-misunderstood-monsters.

(Just scroll dow to the list of monsters and check tge barghest).

[FreddyNoNose]

Edit: the meta- reason for why they transform into goblins is probably just something along the lines of "Gary Gygax needed something scary and wolf-like to run a goblin tribe in one adventure, so he looked up some names of wolflike spirits."

Proof?.....

[KillianHawkeye]

Proof?.....

I'm curious why you'd ask for proof from someone who is clearly just speculating. Did you miss their use of the word "probably"? :smallconfused:

[afroakuma]

afroakuma, afroakuma, afroakuma...

I am summoned, it seems. Let's see here...

Eldan: as far as I can tell, and this is with extensive sourcing, prior to 5th Edition there was no contact whatsoever between Maglubiyet and barghests. Earlier editions haven't exactly delved into the goblinoid races in much detail, so I'm not surprised there wasn't much to be found. Ultimately, I see no in-setting reason, officially, why barghests would have any goblin characteristics.

If you'd like a possible non-canonical answer, it's worth noting that Maglubiyet used to have a pair of sons, who he feared would grow in power and overthrow him. Like any good father would, he dispatched them on suicide missions until it took. We know they were sent against "orcs and dwarves," but there's no reason one of them might not have ended up on, say, a Blood War battlefield on Gehenna, where his end finally came. His essence may still linger on the plane, giving rise to the first barghests. As for why Maglubiyet would let barghests come among goblin tribes if he's so suspicious: after millennia warring with Gruumsh, he's come to realize (a bit too late) that competent and powerful lieutenants are a valuable resource. Barghests have no ambitions to permanently overthrow a goblin tribe; when they mature, they return to Gehenna. This makes them self-securitizing temporary trump cards for goblin tribes to make good use of.

If you want to know from an outside-of-game standpoint, I note that the Encyclopedia Britannica reference for barghests describes them as "a monstrous, goblin dog." "Goblin" appears in several other definitions as well. I suspect Gygax, as you say, was looking to create some kind of Baskerville creature and came across a definition that said "goblin dog," using the sense of "goblin" that served as a generic term for hostile or troublesome supernatural entities, and parsed it through the lens of "goblin" as his own fantasy background defined it, as a vile humanoid. I actually don't even know if the monster was his or not; the original Dragon article is not attributed that I could see.

In any event, sorry there wasn't a better answer to be had. Hope it helps!

[Telonius]

Headcanon answer: Barghests had their "goblin" form first. Goblins evolved to look more and more like that form as a defense mechanism. The possibility that an individual Goblin might actually be a Barghest is a big reason they haven't been completely wiped out by adventurers. This also had the advantage of providing the Barghest with an occasional supply of low-level adventurers for food, so they're able to exist in a sort of symbiotic relationship.

[Pronounceable]

It's pure DnDism, much like gelatinous cube and rust monster. I'm about 102% certain Afro's reasoning above is correct about the source.

Disregarding all that:
Barghestication is an ultraspecialized form of werebeastery only communicable to goblins from hellhounds of lower planes. insert intricate Maglubiyet/yugoloth/Malar/ancient baatorian/Selune backstory here

[Eldan]

One can probably combine the Son of Maglubyet and General of Gehenna theories. The General captured Maggie's son and changed his essence in some way.



If you want to know from an outside-of-game standpoint, I note that the Encyclopedia Britannica reference for barghests describes them as "a monstrous, goblin dog." "Goblin" appears in several other definitions as well. I suspect Gygax, as you say, was looking to create some kind of Baskerville creature and came across a definition that said "goblin dog," using the sense of "goblin" that served as a generic term for hostile or troublesome supernatural entities, and parsed it through the lens of "goblin" as his own fantasy background defined it, as a vile humanoid.

I found that one too, yes. That's how I came up with that idea too.