Slinger!

[Implayingnude]

Using the core rules I'm wondering if anyone has made a slinger?

I'm thinking Lightfoot Halfling for some flavor, but also think I could really optimize this. Unless someone else knows better options.

I convinced the GM that you should be able to wear a shield, and still use a sling. He saw my point, and allowed it seeing as there's no "loading" property.

At level 1, you could have anywhere from a +7-9 to hit if you rolled stats and took fighter at first level.
As far as feats, I'd go Sharpshooter as early as possible to help with the lack of damage.

Battle Master could be nice for maneuvers (Precision Strike, Unsure of the other two.)
Rogue Assassin/Thief (Not quite sure of which one, but rogue for added damage from sneak attack.)
Ranger? Seems rather lacking.

I'd like to optimize this build as much as possible, not quite sure where to go as far as classes though.

Ideas would be great, thanks!

[Contrast]

I convinced the GM that you should be able to wear a shield, and still use a sling. He saw my point, and allowed it seeing as there's no "loading" property.

I note an errata added a section to the ammunition property stating you needed a free hand to load a 1 handed weapon.

That aside there isn't really anything fun you can do with a sling compared to other ranged weapons so its basically any other ranged build with slightly worse weapon damage.

I'm not saying don't do it I'm just saying go in with your expectations set accordingly :smalltongue:

I'd argue the 'best' use of a sling is for a rogue. Small, hard to notice weapon and low damage die from weapon is minimised as the bulk of the damage comes from sneak attack rather than multi-attacks. Due to comparatively low range compared to other ranged weapons sharpshooter is a must. Other things which add to damage will help mitigate it as well so hunters mark/colossus slayer from ranger for example.

[Implayingnude]

I note an errata added a section to the ammunition property stating you needed a free hand to load a 1 handed weapon.

That aside there isn't really anything fun you can do with a sling compared to other ranged weapons so its basically any other ranged build with slightly worse weapon damage.

I'm not saying don't do it I'm just saying go in with your expectations set accordingly :smalltongue:

I'd argue the 'best' use of a sling is for a rogue. Small, hard to notice weapon and low damage die from weapon is minimised as the bulk of the damage comes from sneak attack rather than multi-attacks. Due to comparatively low range compared to other ranged weapons sharpshooter is a must. Other things which add to damage will help mitigate it as well so hunters mark/colossus slayer from ranger for example.

What's an errata? Was wondering where you found this at.

[Contrast]

What's an errata? Was wondering where you found this at.

An errata is when someone issues corrections/amendments to a released product. Link (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-references-august-2017).

[Implayingnude]

An errata is when someone issues corrections/amendments to a released product. Link (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-and-errata-october-2016).

Oh okay, I found it just now. Wouldn't that still mean that the RAW, is still what I mentioned?

[Contrast]

Oh okay, I found it just now. Wouldn't that still mean that the RAW, is still what I mentioned?

You could fire the sling while wearing a shield. You would then not have a free hand (one occupied with shield, one with sling) to reload the weapon as required by the updated text in the ammunition property. For clarity just because a weapon does not have the Loading property does not mean you do not need to load it, in much the same way that its still possible to physically throw a weapon without the Thrown property or use two hands to hold a weapon without the Versatile property.

Of course this is just what the rulebook says. If your DM says you can wear a shield and use a sling then you can wear a shield and use a sling.

[Ventruenox]

The official errata was what prompted me to homebrew a feat to make the slinger a viable build. Historical slinger-skirmishers had been known to be able to fire 6 shots a minute while wielding a shield. If your DM lets you waive that rule, go for it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538048-Sling-Mastery-Feat

Sharpshooter is pretty much a necessity to compensate for both damage and more importantly - range. Finding a way to snag the Archery fighting style is also highly recommended. From what I have seen, Rogues will want to land the Sneak Attack more than they need the +10 damage, so that -5 to hit is a big gamble. Going into a Fighter Archetype and having 3 attacks per round at level 11 with +10-15 static damage modifiers per attack makes more sense for the dpr crunch. It would have to be EK or BM though, the Champion's expanded crit range is wasted on a slinger. Battle Master's Maneuvers make the most sense thematically, but unless you are in a short rest friendly party, resources run out quickly. I'm biased towards Eldritch Knight for the utility cantrips. Abjuration spells on a ranged combatant are great for survivability. (Shield/Absorb Elements as reactions? Better than Opportunity Attacks in my opinion.)

A rouge dip for Cunning Action and +1d6 Sneak Attack (or 2d6 & Archetype ability at 3) may be useful, but delaying the 3rd attack is a huge trade off.

A Rogue with a 1-2 level Fighter dip for fighting style, Action Surge, and shield proficiency is also a great choice. Decide upon the type of character you want to play, then figure out the mechanics from there.

[JackPhoenix]

Sling is really good with Stein rune from this (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Rune_Magic_Prestige_Class.pdf) UA. It's the only ranged weapon that does bludgeoning damage, and 1d4 damage die actually plays in the rune's favor, as you have 25% to roll max damage and trigger its effect, compared to 12.5% chance for 1d8 weapons. Sadly, this ability was removed from the "official" version of Stein rune from STK.

[Kane0]

Full rogue with fighter dip is pretty good, battlemaster can add in maneuvers if you go fighter 3 instead of 2. Don't forget archery fighting style and sharpshooter feat for extra range.

Then start looking around for fun things you can sling instead of standard bullets like acid flasks, alchemist fire, etc.

[Implayingnude]

In previous versions the sling was viable, in comparison to the 5E rules. There's so much more stuff that needs added, especially if you plan to play AL.

The lack of damage, or feats is what cripples the weapon. As far as maneuvers, I'm unsure of what ones I should get and why from Battle Master.

I do know that more attacks is better for this build, as you can apply more damage from Sharpshooter and higher chance to hit/crit with rolls.
Having a +7 or more at level one to hit is absolutely insane.

[Contrast]

Sling is perfectly viable, it's just not optimal.

As I said, a sling build (particularly with sharp shooter to address the range issue but lets be honest you were taking sharp shooter anyway) is identical to any other ranged build minus 1-2 points of damage per attack on average.

As you say, the bonus from archery style is already strong so you've got room to play with.

[Implayingnude]

I think on average 2 damage isn't much but could add up, as far as taking more things for damage I think sneak attack and more attacks is the way to go. Unless someone knows of another possible way?

[Ventruenox]

If you are playing AL, then yes there are only a few options available. If you can add UA or homebrew, you can get a few more choices.

Ones that haven't been mentioned are Hex or Hunter's Mark. Both will add 1d6 per attack roll. Are they worth the investment of a Warlock or Ranger dip? Maybe. Revised Ranger's Favored Enemy certainly has merit.

It's not all about combat though. Don't underestimate skills and adventuring utility. With all the ASI/feat options available to Fighter and Rogue, something like Ritual Caster can give a character a lot of mileage and benefit to the party.

[Vorpalchicken]

I'm convinced that the errata is only meant to address hand crossbows. The sort of sling represented in dungeons and dragons is definitely meant to be used with one hand.
Loading is a specific term in the game for a reason- its much more fiddly than knocking an arrow or scooping a sling stone.

[Implayingnude]

I'm convinced that the errata is only meant to address hand crossbows. The sort of sling represented in dungeons and dragons is definitely meant to be used with one hand.
Loading is a specific term in the game for a reason- its much more fiddly than knocking an arrow or scooping a sling stone.

Not only that but, using a bow is a knock and fire action that's all in one. What's to say that you can't do the same with a sling?

[TrinculoLives]

Not only that but, using a bow is a knock and fire action that's all in one. What's to say that you can't do the same with a sling?

nock and loose (or shoot)*

(sorry)

I think it would be quite awkward to try and load a sling and use it with just one hand, and would require that a creature require a free hand to load a sling.

I'm curious about magic stone, can it be used with multi-attack, and if so, could that figure into a solid slinger build?

[Knaight]

Loading is a specific term in the game for a reason- its much more fiddly than knocking an arrow or scooping a sling stone.

Scooping is definitely not how you load a sling, and it's a two handed process. It's not a particularly finnicky two handed process, and can be done pretty easily with a shield hand, but it's a two handed process nonetheless. It's actually using the sling where the shield would get in the way a bit, and even then it's not necessarily a bad tradeoff.

[Implayingnude]

You can't argue that the 1d4 should allow a shield as balance, one thing that 5E lacks is feats and weapons/armor. A lot of stuff requires homebrew and I don't like that.

[RickAllison]

My favorite sling build is a Rogue with either a Druid dip, a Tomelock dip, or Magic Initiate (Druid) to pick up Magic Stone. It gives a way to get Sneak Attack while being pure Wisdom or Charisma. There is a certain power in being a non-magical face that can contribute to combat quite effectively.

[Ventruenox]

The thing with Magic Stone is that it would replace your DEX modifier with CHA/WIS for the attack. Sure, it increases to 1d6, but if you are a full caster you have better spell attack options. If you are martial, why would you have a higher casting stat than STR/DEX? Monk is the only class that really makes sense for, but casting Magic Stone is more competition for that bonus action on a monk.

[Sigreid]

I think the best bet would be fighter 1 for archery fighting style rogue x for sneak attack. Crossbow expert for using the sling with an opponent in melee and only bother with sharpshooter if your DM actually uses cover.

[Aett_Thorn]

My problem with the sling in this edition is that it is de facto two-handed, without the two-handed tag, meaning that it loses a damage dice (going from 1d6 to 1d4), but still requires two hands to use (since you need the other hand to load). In previous editions, you could use the sling with a shield, which somewhat made up for the lack of damage, since you got the AC instead. In 5e, this is no longer possible because of how the sling works in practice.

I see no reason why you couldn't hold a fistful of sling ammo in your shield hand, if your shield is strapped to your arm.

[Sigreid]

My problem with the sling in this edition is that it is de facto two-handed, without the two-handed tag, meaning that it loses a damage dice (going from 1d6 to 1d4), but still requires two hands to use (since you need the other hand to load). In previous editions, you could use the sling with a shield, which somewhat made up for the lack of damage, since you got the AC instead. In 5e, this is no longer possible because of how the sling works in practice.

I see no reason why you couldn't hold a fistful of sling ammo in your shield hand, if your shield is strapped to your arm.

Depends on the type of shield. While it wouldn't be much of an issue for shields with straps, lots of shields in history just had a hand grip in the middle.

[PeteNutButter]

Magic Stone on a ranger 5/Nature Cleric 15 is viable way to leave dex at 14 and be an effective archer maxing wisdom instead. The damage is only 1 point lower than a bow, and if you pick up SS the range isn't much of a difference. Also, none of the cool ranger spells specify the type of ranged weapon, so you could make a sling bullet a lightning arrow (would of course require more than 5 in ranger, but you get the point).

There is some bonus action competition though, if you want to cast ranger spells and need to refresh your rocks.

[Knaight]

Depends on the type of shield. While it wouldn't be much of an issue for shields with straps, lots of shields in history just had a hand grip in the middle.

It's not much of an issue for those either - you'll be slowed a bit in reloading by needing to transfer the stone to that hand, but you really don't need anywhere near full fine motor skills to put a glande in the pouch. Even with split pouches* it's the sort of thing that can be done with an extended thumb and the other hand.

*Which I personally prefer and which were ubiquitous through history, but which rarely appear in the art.

[Sigreid]

It's not much of an issue for those either - you'll be slowed a bit in reloading by needing to transfer the stone to that hand, but you really don't need anywhere near full fine motor skills to put a glande in the pouch. Even with split pouches* it's the sort of thing that can be done with an extended thumb and the other hand.

*Which I personally prefer and which were ubiquitous through history, but which rarely appear in the art.

If we're going to nitpick sling implementation though, it's way under rated. I watched the show Ultimate Warrior or whatever it was called and they were surprised to find that a sling in skilled hands was a lot like getting shot with a .45, if hit at close range.

[Knaight]

If we're going to nitpick sling implementation though, it's way under rated. I watched the show Ultimate Warrior or whatever it was called and they were surprised to find that a sling in skilled hands was a lot like getting shot with a .45, if hit at close range.

The show is Deadliest Warrior, and while they're a completely useless source in a lot of ways (and that sling episode is one of them - one of the extant slinging styles is literally called "Apache Style", and yet in their Apache vs. Gladiator episode it's the Gladiator who got a sling) they happened to be right about slings having some real punch.

[Sigreid]

The show is Deadliest Warrior, and while they're a completely useless source in a lot of ways (and that sling episode is one of them - one of the extant slinging styles is literally called "Apache Style", and yet in their Apache vs. Gladiator episode it's the Gladiator who got a sling) they happened to be right about slings having some real punch.

Their only real value was measuring the actual force, cutting power, penetrating power and damage mitigating capabilities of the equipment. The rest was pretty much bunk.

[RickAllison]

The thing with Magic Stone is that it would replace your DEX modifier with CHA/WIS for the attack. Sure, it increases to 1d6, but if you are a full caster you have better spell attack options. If you are martial, why would you have a higher casting stat than STR/DEX? Monk is the only class that really makes sense for, but casting Magic Stone is more competition for that bonus action on a monk.

I think you missed the entire point of the concept. You very intentionally are running someone whose damage decreases very little by the switch (a rogue goes from Xd6 to 1d4+(X-1)d6), but has the option to be a non-caster that can focus ASIs on a particular stat for the concept. Someone who can rock a high Charisma and Wisdom because they don't need as much Dexterity or Strength. And it suffers little for the option. Plus, rogues generally make one attack per round so the limitation on number of stones is not felt keenly.

[Knaight]

Their only real value was measuring the actual force, cutting power, penetrating power and damage mitigating capabilities of the equipment. The rest was pretty much bunk.

Even that is all sorts of questionable - a lot of their equipment is questionably accurate at best, and having one person do one test is a terrible way to generate useful data at the best of times.

[Sigreid]

Even that is all sorts of questionable - a lot of their equipment is questionably accurate at best, and having one person do one test is a terrible way to generate useful data at the best of times.

True. Was still fun to watch sometimes. 😁

[Ventruenox]

I think you missed the entire point of the concept. You very intentionally are running someone whose damage decreases very little by the switch (a rogue goes from Xd6 to 1d4+(X-1)d6), but has the option to be a non-caster that can focus ASIs on a particular stat for the concept. Someone who can rock a high Charisma and Wisdom because they don't need as much Dexterity or Strength. And it suffers little for the option. Plus, rogues generally make one attack per round so the limitation on number of stones is not felt keenly.

You are right. I posted that before having had any caffeine. Sort of a ranged equivalent of a Shillelagh build. Lots of options there, but the lack of a rider effect with Magic Stone certainly makes it a concept choice instead of crunch optimization compared to other Warlock/Druid spell options. There is also competition for the bonus action on the Rogue too, but as long as you aren't in melee, definitely doable.

With slingers holding shields, typically the shield hand was used to hold the cradle/pouch while the hand holding the cords loaded the stone or bullet.

[Trampaige]

So... you shouldn't be able to sneak attack with magic stones, anyway. They're a ranged spell attack using wis/cha. SA calls for a finesse weapon or a ranged weapon.

It's super thematic and rule of cool, but still. It's not an option for AL.

[RickAllison]

So... you shouldn't be able to sneak attack with magic stones, anyway. They're a ranged spell attack using wis/cha. SA calls for a finesse weapon or a ranged weapon.

It's super thematic and rule of cool, but still. It's not an option for AL.

Actually, it is valid! But only because 5e and that spell have two weird quirks. The spell has the unique distinction of, if you are using a sling, being the only ranged spell attack made with a weapon. This is subtly different from a ranged spell attack made without a weapon, and very different from a ranged weapon attack with a weapon (which is again different from one without a weapon).

Sneak Attack requires an attack with a finesse or ranged weapon. Not a weapon attack, an attack with a weapon. This means that even a creature that could add the finesse trait to its unarmed attacks is unable to make a Sneak Attack unarmed, just as you cannot use Booming Blade unarmed. Both require a weapon, and unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks without a weapon.

This is also why you can swing a heavy crossbow at someone in melee and take advantage of the -5/+10 Great Weapon Master (melee attack with a heavy weapon), but you can't throw a dagger and use the same of Sharpshooter (which is a ranged attack with a melee weapon, while SS requires an attack with a ranged weapon).

Sneak Attack with Magic Stone only works within AL because of the specific wording of the two features. The spell is literally unique in this regard. There is no other spell that works like this.

[PeteNutButter]

Actually, it is valid! But only because 5e and that spell have two weird quirks. The spell has the unique distinction of, if you are using a sling, being the only ranged spell attack made with a weapon. This is subtly different from a ranged spell attack made without a weapon, and very different from a ranged weapon attack with a weapon (which is again different from one without a weapon).

Sneak Attack requires an attack with a finesse or ranged weapon. Not a weapon attack, an attack with a weapon. This means that even a creature that could add the finesse trait to its unarmed attacks is unable to make a Sneak Attack unarmed, just as you cannot use Booming Blade unarmed. Both require a weapon, and unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks without a weapon.

This is also why you can swing a heavy crossbow at someone in melee and take advantage of the -5/+10 Great Weapon Master (melee attack with a heavy weapon), but you can't throw a dagger and use the same of Sharpshooter (which is a ranged attack with a melee weapon, while SS requires an attack with a ranged weapon).

Sneak Attack with Magic Stone only works within AL because of the specific wording of the two features. The spell is literally unique in this regard. There is no other spell that works like this.

I was going to say all this and less thoroughly, so good job. +1

[RickAllison]

I was going to say all this and less thoroughly, so good job. +1

I am very passionate about these fringe builds :smallbiggrin:. I still take great pleasure in the Twinned Ice Knife, the only Twinnable AoE spell. Is it useful? Probably not. Too costly for its low damage, but it is fun.

[JackPhoenix]

I am very passionate about these fringe builds :smallbiggrin:. I still take great pleasure in the Twinned Ice Knife, the only Twinnable AoE spell. Is it useful? Probably not. Too costly for its low damage, but it is fun.

Well, do I have bad news (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/11/can-i-use-twinned-spell-on-ice-knife/) for you....

[RickAllison]

Well, do I have bad news (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/11/can-i-use-twinned-spell-on-ice-knife/) for you....

And I take issue with his ruling because it is against the RAW. Not within the realm of RAI, but actually against the rules. For it to work like that, an erratum needs to be made. It wouldn't be the first time.