Delayed Unearthed Arcana.

[Regitnui]

Boys and girls of every age,
Wouldn't you like to see something strange?
Come with us and you will see
An UA article for you and me.

This is October, so what's our Halloween UA going to be?

It is Fiendish Options (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA_FiendishOptions.pdf)!

[Deleted]

Boys and girls of every age,
Wouldn't you like to see something strange?
Come with us and you will see
An UA article for you and me.

This is October, so what's our Halloween UA going to be?

Giving stats and abilities to Notferatu (sorcerer/warlock gestalt class), Dankula (bard/cleric gestalt class), and Dr Jackal and Mr Hide (Barbarian/Rogue gestalt class) which are all monster classes.

[jaappleton]

Giving stats and abilities to Notferatu (sorcerer/warlock gestalt class), Dankula (bard/cleric gestalt class), and Dr Jackal and Mr Hide (Barbarian/Rogue gestalt class) which are all monster classes.

Ok, I'll say it:

You finally made a post that I don't outright hate.

I actually chuckled.

[Rogerdodger557]

Gothic Monster Race options(Dhampir, etc.), revised monster hunter, revised greyhawk initiative for a real scare?

[Foxhound438]

spook of spookiness:

1) a new condition: spooked (it's like frightened but more whimsical and fun)

2) a few new spells that cause the spooked condition

3) at least one enemy that causes the spooked condition somehow

[Mortis_Elrod]

Gonna be optimistic and say 30 pages on 1 new subclass Halloween themed for each class and for warlocks a couple more invocations and pact boons

[Chunkosaurus]

Is it actually going to be here today?

[DracoKnight]

Is it actually going to be here today?

That was the promise.

[Regitnui]

Is it actually going to be here today?

Don't jinx it!

[Chunkosaurus]

Don't jinx it!

Sorry I just have zero confidence for them to deliver

[Llama513]

Any word on when it is supposed to come out

[DracoKnight]

Any word on when it is supposed to come out

Nothing yet...my poor F5 key...

[jaappleton]

Nothing yet...my poor F5 key...

They're recording Dragon Talk or something now with JC. So likely not for another hour or so?

[Mortis_Elrod]

They're recording Dragon Talk or something now with JC. So likely not for another hour or so?

Takes 2 seconds to be like "yo bro upload this thing I'm gonna go do a podcast"

I'm being impatient but they know what they do

[jaappleton]

Takes 2 seconds to be like "yo bro upload this thing I'm gonna go do a podcast"

I'm being impatient but they know what they do

First they moved the UA day to be a week later and they can't even upload it before lunch? C'mon.

[Regitnui]

Nice to see I didn't miss anything. Should be out before too long though...

[Mortis_Elrod]

First they moved the UA day to be a week later and they can't even upload it before lunch? C'mon.

I know and then they wonder why we hate anything akin to that grehawk initiative when we have to wait more than necessary

[nickl_2000]

I know and then they wonder why we hate anything akin to that grehawk initiative when we have to wait more than necessary

Hey now, I resent your implications here. I would have hated the Greyhawk initiative even if they hadn't made me wait for it.

[Matrix_Walker]

First they moved the UA day to be a week later and they can't even upload it before lunch? C'mon.

I'm half convinced that one of their favorite things is trolling us... It can't all be pure laziness (though things like Greyhawk Initiative are clearly a combination of both).

And am I the only one that finds it immensely disappointing that, with the vast amount of artwork they have the rights to, they almost always use the exact same piece of artwork to head all of these UA articles? Sometimes they change the zoom, and that is enough for them... I'm not impressed by it.

[jaappleton]

I'm half convinced that one of their favorite things is trolling us... It can't all be pure laziness (though things like Greyhawk Initiative are clearly a combination of both).

And am I the only one that finds it immensely disappointing that, with the vast amount of artwork they have the rights to, they almost always use the exact same piece of artwork to head all of these UA articles? Sometimes they change the zoom, and that is enough for them... I'm not impressed by it.

They have more than enough stock art around at this point that it shouldn't be this half-assed. Yes, I agree entirely.

[Deleted]

They have more than enough stock art around at this point that it shouldn't be this half-assed. Yes, I agree entirely.

WotC has always loved using old art in new editions.

The female barbarian in the 5e phb is actually from 4e as is some art from the bard.

This also happened in 4e with art from 3e.

[DracoKnight]

It’s halfway through the afternoon...grumble, grumble...they’re two hours late...grumble, grumble, grumble, grumble.

[JumboWheat01]

Gonna be optimistic and say 30 pages on 1 new subclass Halloween themed for each class and for warlocks a couple more invocations and pact boons

Now this would be totally awesome. I highly doubt it, but it would be awesome.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Hey now, I resent your implications here. I would have hated the Greyhawk initiative even if they hadn't made me wait for it.

You right. We hated it before it was on the podcast and despised it as a UA article

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'm trying to keep some optimism, but after all this waiting the article will have to dispense home baked cookies to not be a little disappointing.

[Aett_Thorn]

I'm trying to keep some optimism, but after all this waiting the article will have to dispense home baked cookies to not be a little disappointing.

Baker class option confirmed! :b

[jaappleton]

Baker class option confirmed! :b

That spell list would be awesome.

The only spell list with Conjure Gingerbread Beings, and Muffin Man's Magnificent Candy House

[Mortis_Elrod]

Am I the only one losing it?

Also isn't the podcast live? I've never watched it but if they get any messages from the audience it better be nothing but "Where the UA at?"

[nickl_2000]

That spell list would be awesome.

The only spell list with Conjure Gingerbread Beings, and Muffin Man's Magnificent Candy House

The ritual spell, locate gumdrop buttons.

[jaappleton]

Am I the only one losing it?

Also isn't the podcast live? I've never watched it but if they get any messages from the audience it better be nothing but "Where the UA at?"

"Ok, let's take a call."
"UPLOAD THE ----ING UNEARTHED ARCANA ARTICLE"
"Ok, moving on..."

[Regitnui]

"Ok, let's take a call."
"UPLOAD THE ----ING UNEARTHED ARCANA ARTICLE"
"Ok, moving on..."

"Next caller"

"um, yes, I have a question."

"yes, what's your question?"

"When are we getting the UA article?"

"Next caller!"

[Temperjoke]

You know, PC versions of classic monsters might be entertaining. We have lycanthrope PC rules already, but vampires, mummies, ghosts, etc., might be entertaining. Maybe a Monster Hunter/Fighter sort of class.

[Townopolis]

Updated monster hunter and monster slayer subclasses would be neato, but I am still hoping for revised ranger revisited.

But maybe it'll be something more topical, like rules for natural disasters.

[Temperjoke]

I'm not asking people to call the WOTC corporate help line. I'm just saying, its there.

I feel this is a little excessive...

Edited to remove the number

[jaappleton]

I feel this is a little excessive...

I'm not saying to demand anyone's head.

But calling and asking when it might be uploaded? After it was delayed over a week?

It's not like I made some massive deep dive to find that number, either. If I somehow found the line to Crawford's desk, yes, that's a line that shouldn't be crossed.

[Regitnui]

(425) 226-6500

I'm not asking people to call the WOTC corporate help line. I'm just saying, its there.

What's the country code for the US?

*looks*

Of course it's 1. :smallfrown:

[Deleted]

You know, PC versions of classic monsters might be entertaining. We have lycanthrope PC rules already, but vampires, mummies, ghosts, etc., might be entertaining. Maybe a Monster Hunter/Fighter sort of class.

Being a bit serious here and not dealing with "Dankula" I wouldn't base them off the existing classes.

I would make them each have their own progression as a monster. A level 1 Vampire won't be as strong as a level 12 vampire. Same thing with a goblin or whatever else. For a vampire you could base it around the vampire spawn at first and then later a full fledged vampire... Maybe start off with regeneration 1 hp per round (unless you have 0) and then later in the game it would increase to 2 or 3.

Probably wouldn't have subclasses unless the monster had different types that aren't specific race related (I would look up 4e monsters for these ideas).

[jaappleton]

Fiendish options

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA_FiendishOptions.pdf

[Llama513]

Fiendish options

is that what it is or what you are hoping for Nevermind Answered

Interesting, but not at all worth the wait, why did this take so long

[Ventruenox]

It's not like I made some massive deep dive to find that number, either. If I somehow found the line to Crawford's desk, yes, that's a line that shouldn't be crossed.

Why draw a line if you don't actually expect people to cross it just because it's there? I suppose you are right though. The Qwest Rate Center in Renton, WA shouldn't handle the unnecessary phone traffic.

[jaappleton]

Why draw a line if you don't actually expect people to cross it just because it's there? I suppose you are right though. The Qwest Rate Center in Renton, WA shouldn't handle the unnecessary phone traffic.

I deleted the post.

Though today's UA sucks and now people should let 'em know. >_>

[Mortis_Elrod]

I deleted the post.

Though today's UA sucks and now people should let 'em know. >_>

It's sadly better than I expected. I could definitely use this to make sure I never have to not play a Tiefling

[Llama513]

I really hope this isn't the pattern that we a couple bad UA, an interesting and good UA and then a super delayed meh one

[jaappleton]

It's sadly better than I expected. I could definitely use this to make sure I never have to not play a Tiefling

My issue is, did we need MORE Tiefling subraces and options?

[Llama513]

My issue is, did we need MORE Tiefling subraces and options?

No we definetely didn't, and if this is supposed to be for Halloween its very sad, they could have done so many cooler things, I think the issue is that they are not getting feedback via polls on the UA they have been putting out so there is less incentive to make it good

[Matrix_Walker]

Well, it's content. I can say that much.

Might want to have at least one person proofread tho.

[Regitnui]

Well, I'm going to get some use out of the tiefling variants as different "planetouched" tieflings. Glasya is tieflings from Thelanis, Levistus for Risia, Fierna could pull from Dal Quor and Dispater's spell selection hints at Mabar. I'll comment after looking at the rest tomorrow morning...

[jaappleton]

No we definetely didn't, and if this is supposed to be for Halloween its very sad, they could have done so many cooler things, I think the issue is that they are not getting feedback via polls on the UA they have been putting out so there is less incentive to make it good

Exactly.

What would've been AWSOME is some revised templates for Player Character use. Vampire, Half Vampire, Lycanthropes, etc.

That would've been awesome.

[Mortis_Elrod]

So my General opinions is

"We are glad it is not utter garbage. We are however severely disappointed that its not good. So we have only one thing to ask you..... WHY DID YOU DELAY US FOR THIS"

[samcifer]

As someone playing a Tiefling, I love these options. :)

[jaappleton]

So my General opinions is

"We are glad it is not utter garbage. We are however severely disappointed that its not good. So we have only one thing to ask you..... WHY DID YOU DELAY US FOR THIS"

Yup.

Pretty much.

It's like "Ok. This is.... something. Was it worth waiting for? No. Did anyone really want this? Nah."

I mean, I saw a Tiefling with +1 Str, +2 Cha, and a couple Smite spells. Doesn't totally suck for a Paladin, I guess. But there's still better options out there, and a million superior things they could've put into this UA.

So, for the record, there's now...

11 different Tiefling variants in Unearthed Arcana (9 here, Asmodeus gets the PHB Tiefling, and Abyssal from That Old Black Magic UA)

Plus all the variant combinations available via SCAG. I'm no mathematician, but I believe that's approximately eleventeen trillion combinations of Tiefling.

Therefore, I am absolutely forced to believe that Crawford is into bondage.

These are facts.

[Temperjoke]

It's not too bad, I mean, it's a mix of player and DM options. And it starts touching on the interactions between the Hells and the mortal world, which would probably be necessary if they do a planar book or campaign. In fact, with the information on cults and gifts, that could actually be useful in a campaign, where the various devils are conspiring against each other, using the players as their proxies.

[Llama513]

Yup.

Pretty much.

It's like "Ok. This is.... something. Was it worth waiting for? No. Did anyone really want this? Nah."

I mean, I saw a Tiefling with +1 Str, +2 Cha, and a couple Smite spells. Doesn't totally suck for a Paladin, I guess. But there's still better options out there, and a million superior things they could've put into this UA.

So, for the record, there's now...

11 different Tiefling variants in Unearthed Arcana (9 here, Asmodeus gets the PHB Tiefling, and Abyssal from That Old Black Magic UA)

Plus all the variant combinations available via SCAG. I'm no mathematician, but I believe that's approximately eleventeen trillion combinations of Tiefling.

Therefore, I am absolutely forced to believe that Crawford is into bondage.

These are facts.

Sound logic

[JumboWheat01]

Well, it's not the worst thing I've seen in UA, but not the best either. It's decidedly in the middle. Not much I'd use, as I already like the stock tiefling the most and never play an evil character, so getting a boon from a fiend doesn't exactly tickle my fancy.

[Vaz]

This is a really awesome UA, even if the balance is out of the window, yet again.

Levistus Tiefling Blade Warlock of the Cult of Geryon; Armour of Agathys (2nd Level, 1/LR) and Darkness (1/lr), Shillelagh, Aura of Vitality, 5+ Recharge ability to reduce damage by D10, and Bonus Str Mod Damage to next attack roll.

Alternatively, Bladelock with Paladin levels for 1/short rest guaranteed Crit (+16d8 1/short rest damage guaranteed at like 12th level), and can steal allies Initiative so you can play a Plate Armoured Mother ****er thanks to Zariel.

Alternatively; Mephistopheles; Regain Spell Slots from allies, Advantage on Saves vs Spells, regaining HP equal to the spell level used.

Boons; Demogorgon is baller; a couple of Save or Dies or Save or Sucks in that list, and advantage on those is ace with no penalty stats. Fraz-ubluu's free nope to Illusions/Invis with Wis/Cha bonuses are brilliant, Graz'zt's Reaction Attack on Critical Hits or temp HP as a reaction to taking damage. Con AND CHA, no penalty? Graz't, my man.

That said, My favourite; Warlocks can finally animate dead without Houseruling too much. Be a thrall to Orcus, get Animate Dead, DC10 Con Save on Death you stay at 1HP, and Immunity to Fright.

Alternatively, be a Barbarian dedicated to Yeenoghu; sack your Cha+Int, Bonus Action 1d4+Str damage, and can move after dropping enemy.

Alternatively, Marilith; 2 Reactions.

Kinda want to make a Yuan-ti Berserker with a Marilith Patron to just be able to make 2 Reactionary Attacks.

[Mister_Squinty]

Man, 17 different subraces of Tiefling, along with the variants in SCAG?! I haven't been this excited since the last time I had to scrape gum off my shoes!

It's odd why they'd focus so much time and such on these guys. They could just make a generic Tiefling with +2 CHA, +1 to any stat like half elves instead.

Though, in the interests of Gnome Paladins everywhere, a "+2 racial stat, +1 any stat" would be cool if they gave it to all races.

[sightlessrealit]

Still not enough Tiefling love. Need even more. (Not being sarcastic)

[jaappleton]

This is a really awesome UA, even if the balance is out of the window, yet again.

Levistus Tiefling Blade Warlock of the Cult of Geryon; Armour of Agathys (2nd Level, 1/LR) and Darkness (1/lr), Shillelagh, Aura of Vitality, 5+ Recharge ability to reduce damage by D10, and Bonus Str Mod Damage to next attack roll.

Alternatively, Bladelock with Paladin levels for 1/short rest guaranteed Crit (+16d8 1/short rest damage guaranteed at like 12th level), and can steal allies Initiative so you can play a Plate Armoured Mother ****er thanks to Zariel.

Alternatively; Mephistopheles; Regain Spell Slots from allies, Advantage on Saves vs Spells, regaining HP equal to the spell level used.

Boons; Demogorgon is baller; a couple of Save or Dies or Save or Sucks in that list, and advantage on those is ace with no penalty stats. Fraz-ubluu's free nope to Illusions/Invis with Wis/Cha bonuses are brilliant, Graz'zt's Reaction Attack on Critical Hits or temp HP as a reaction to taking damage. Con AND CHA, no penalty? Graz't, my man.

That said, My favourite; Warlocks can finally animate dead without Houseruling too much. Be a thrall to Orcus, get Animate Dead, DC10 Con Save on Death you stay at 1HP, and Immunity to Fright.

Alternatively, be a Barbarian dedicated to Yeenoghu; sack your Cha+Int, Bonus Action 1d4+Str damage, and can move after dropping enemy.

Alternatively, Marilith; 2 Reactions.

Kinda want to make a Yuan-ti Berserker with a Marilith Patron to just be able to make 2 Reactionary Attacks.

You do realize the Cult aspects are for NPC Cultists from the Monster Manual, right? They aren't intended for player characters to be used.

[Anonymouswizard]

Demonic Boons and Diabolical Cults are interesting. I won't say I like the implementation, but I can see them as being good options for both PCs and NPCs with a lot more development.

[daltonispanda]

Yup.

Therefore, I am absolutely forced to believe that Crawford is into bondage.

These are facts.

He's gay. We're all into bondage. :smalltongue:

[jaappleton]

He's gay. We're all into bondage. :smalltongue:

I know he's gay. I'm bisexual myself. He's cute as hell (Pun fully intended after this UA), I'll say it.

Doesn't change the fact that this UA is a letdown.

[Aett_Thorn]

I'm personally happy with this UA. It's got some options for players, and some for DMs. Sure it's narrowly focused, but I like that there's options for everyone here.

[Waterdeep Merch]

The UA did not dispense cookies. But I don't hate it.

A feat in and of itself.

I might keep this in my back pocket if I get another warlock player. I don't see them as often as everyone else seems to, but it'd be nice to use the boons to really make them feel like they're bargaining with something despicable.

In about two decades of gaming I've literally never used cultists outside of published adventures, and I shy away from the ones that are all about them. Not consciously necessarily, they just don't excite me. At least this gives me a bit of an idea of what I might do with them. Worth a second look.

[Arkhios]

*Yawn!*


BOOORIIIIIIING!


Seriously, this article seems as if it was wrapped together in the last minute or so (probably why it took so long in the first place?)

I'll pass.

[Easy_Lee]

It's balanced, but only due to being essentially the same thing as the base race. My issue is that any homebrewer worth his salt could have written up the tiefling races (minus the fluff) in five minutes.

Hell, there's even a formula. Produce your generic inherent magical Sue race like so: +2 primary attribute, +1 secondary attribute, one cantrip, one level one spell out of a level 2 slot, and one level 2 spell.

As a matter of fact, make that the generic "magic touched human" race and let people make their own selections. What's the worst that could happen? Fun?

[Vaz]

You do realize the Cult aspects are for NPC Cultists from the Monster Manual, right? They aren't intended for player characters to be used.

They're as intended for the Players as much as the DM allows. Worst that happens the DM says no. Better thing that happens is that you now get mechanical benefits to reward your players with, supported by official (ish) material for playing along with type.

[JackPhoenix]

As someone who prefers to use humanoids as foes, and can always find a place to stuff some cultists into, I love this UA. Even if I won't use these precise options, it's definitely inspiration for the future. Tieflings are OK, I liked their variability before 4e turned them all into red draenei and this is the step in the right direction.

Much better than "here, have another 3 broken subclasses".

[Unoriginal]

Hate not having UA, but hate having UA.

Yup, sounds like this old thread again.


EDIT:

On the subject of this month's UA, I think it's a more than decent work. It gives some more identity to the major Fiends and those they influence.

I do think that they should re-work some of the mechanics, though.


On the other hand, given the recent UA, I'm pretty convinced we're going to get a Planar Manual as next book.

[jaappleton]

On the other hand, given the recent UA, I'm pretty convinced we're going to get a Planar Manual as next book.

Agreed, 100%.

This allows them to cover Sigil, Eberron, etc.

I don't think we'll get multiple books, each focused on a different setting. I don't see that happening, unfortunately. We'll get Mordenkainen's Guide to the Planes and maybe a Volume 2 in a few years.

[Anonymouswizard]

On the other hand, given the recent UA, I'm pretty convinced we're going to get a Planar Manual as next book.

Grumble grumble give us Planescape already.

I will hate it of they give us 'Forgotten Realms character's guide to the planes'. Planescape and Spelljammer are the two settings that seamlessly slot around the FR (focus on Realmspace for Spelljammer, and Planescape doesn't change if there's only one material plane), so please can we have those settings presented as those settings, not as Forgotten Realms stuff.

I had no problem with the Realms being the default 5e setting (although I'd have preferred Nentir Vale), I just assumed we'd get other stiff at some point.

[Mr. Crowbar]

I would have rather seen options for another race as Tieflings already have a huge amount of variability, but having these options aint bad at all. I like the fiendish boons and might see about repurposing them for my campaign.

[Deleted]

Damn it WotC, can't you do one thing right? :smallfurious:

Mephistopheles doesn't have one power that allows you to bring someone back to life by having your wedding annulled?

WotC needs to step up their game if they want people to take them seriously.

Spider-Man/Mephisto "One More Day" reference

[Anonymouswizard]

I would have rather seen options for another race as Tieflings already have a huge amount of variability, but having these options aint bad at all. I like the fiendish boons and might see about repurposing them for my campaign.

I'm honestly thinking the tons of different plane touched races should have been dealt with, and Aassimar and Tieflings made into a 'generic' subrace that can be applied to any subrace. The same for other planes, four 'elementally touched' subraces.

It would require a but more work balancing, but WotC has down that genetic subraces are possible (Revenant).

[JBPuffin]

Ugh. I don't like this one - there are already enough tiefling variants (giving us more doesn't make the race any better), and the cult/boon stuff, which may or not be the precursor to a 4e-esque variety of templating to be built upon in future, just doesn't do anything for me. Also, if they do a Christmas UA, so help me Acererak...

[Puh Laden]

I like the idea of the cult boons, but a lot of them are just advantage. There are some interesting ones though like juiblex's.

[thoroughlyS]

I'm no mathematician, but I believe that's approximately eleventeen trillion combinations of Tiefling.
Just for fun, I'm going to do the math.

Counting subraces: there's the Tiefling in the PHB, the Abyssal Tiefling from That Old Black Magic (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/07_UA_That_Old_Black_Magic.pdf), the Revenant subrace from Gothic Heroes (http://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/upload/articles/UA%20Gothic%20Characters.pdf), and one subrace for each archdevil (minus Asmodeus, because his are the standard Tieflings). That's 11 subraces. Going into the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, technically Devil's Tongue, Hellfire, and Winged can only be given to the PHB/Infernal/Asmodeus Tiefling. That's 3 variations for a total of 14 so far. Any subrace can replace Ability Score Increase with Feral, for 28 Tiefling variants.

If we start bending rules, things start to get interesting. If we apply both Devil's Tongue and Hellfire to the PHB/Infernal/Asmodeus Tiefling and its Feral counterpart, that is 30 variations. If we allow any subrace to replace their "Legacy" trait (or "Abyssal Arcana" for the Abyssal Tiefling) with Devil's Tongue, Hellfire (replacing the spell gained at 3rd level), Devil's Tongue and Hellfire, or Winged, that adds 4 more variations for each subrace (4 * 9 = 36) so we're up to 66. However Baalzebul, Mammon, and Mephistopholes all have the same Ability Score Increases as the PHB Tiefling. Therefore the Devil's Tongue, Devil's Tongue and Hellfire, and Winged variants for those subraces are identical and shouldn't be counted, 57.The same goes for Dispater and Glasya so that's another 3 gone, 54. We don't have this issue with Levistus and Abyssal Tieflings: although they share Ability Score Increases, the Abyssal Tiefling has Abyssal Fortitude instead of Hellish Resistance (they also get Abyssal instead of Infernal). The Feral Devil's Tongue, Feral Devil's Tongue and Hellfire, and Feral Winged variations for every subrace would also be identical to the PHB/Infernal/Asmodeus Tiefling except for the Abyssal Tiefling, 57. The Feral Hellfire variations are all unique, thus we can add 9 more variations for a total of 66 Tiefling variants! You could play a different variant each week and wouldn't run out until over a year later (and by then I'm sure they'll have introduced subraces for the Demon Princes as well). The Revenant Tiefling, doesn't factor in to any of these calculations, because it lacks the appropriate feature to trade away.

EDIT: My first round of calculations mistakenly subtracted the Hellfire variations of the UA subraces, even though they would be unique. I also added in another set of extra-legal variations.

[jaappleton]

Just for fun, I'm going to do the math.

There's the Tiefling in the PHB, the Abyssal Tiefling from That Old Black Magic (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/07_UA_That_Old_Black_Magic.pdf), and one subrace for each archdevil (minus Asmodeus, because his are the standard Tieflings). That's 10 subraces. Going into the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, technically Devil's Tongue, Hellfire, and Winged can only be given to the PHB/Infernal/Asmodeus Tiefling. That's 3 variations for a total of 13 so far. Any of these can replace Ability Score Increase with Feral, for 26 Tiefling variants.

If we allow any subrace to replace their "Legacy" trait (or "Abyssal Arcana" for the Abyssal Tiefling) with Devil's Tongue, Hellfire (replacing the spell gained at 3rd level), or Winged, that adds 3 more variations for each subrace (3 * 9 = 27) so 53 variations. However Baalzebul, Mammon, and Mephistopholes all have the same Ability Score Increases as the PHB Tiefling. Therefore the Devil's Tongue, Hellfire, and Winged variants for those subraces are identical and shouldn't be counted 53 - (3 * 3) = 44. The same goes for Dispater and Glasya so that's another 3 gone, for 41. We don't have this issue with Levistus and Abyssal Tieflings: although they share Ability Score Increases, the Abyssal Tiefling has Abyssal Fortitude instead of Hellish Resistance (they also get Abyssal instead of Infernal). The Feral Devil's Tongue and Feral Winged variations for these subraces would also be identical except for the Abyssal Tiefling, 43. The Feral Hellfire variations are all unique, thus we can add 9 more variations for a total of 52 Tiefling variants! You could play a different variant each week and wouldn't run out until a year later (and by then I'm sure they'll have introduced subraces for the Demon Princes as well).

Side Note: I find it interesting that allowing an subrace to take Devil's Tongue, Hellfire, or Winged exactly doubles the total count.

Emphasis mine.

They have the same ASIs, but not the same spells. Therefore, they should be counted and... mathed... separately.

[thoroughlyS]

If we start bending rules, things start to get interesting. If we apply both Devil's Tongue and Hellfire to the PHB/Infernal/Asmodeus Tiefling and its Feral counterpart, that is 30 variations. If we allow any subrace to replace their "Legacy" trait (or "Abyssal Arcana" for the Abyssal Tiefling) with Devil's Tongue, Hellfire (replacing the spell gained at 3rd level), Devil's Tongue and Hellfire, or Winged, that adds 4 more variations for each subrace (4 * 9 = 36) so we're up to 66. However Baalzebul, Mammon, and Mephistopholes all have the same Ability Score Increases as the PHB Tiefling. Therefore the Devil's Tongue, Devil's Tongue and Hellfire, and Winged variants for those subraces are identical and shouldn't be counted, 57.The same goes for Dispater and Glasya so that's another 3 gone, 54. We don't have this issue with Levistus and Abyssal Tieflings: although they share Ability Score Increases, the Abyssal Tiefling has Abyssal Fortitude instead of Hellish Resistance (they also get Abyssal instead of Infernal). The Feral Devil's Tongue, Feral Devil's Tongue and Hellfire, and Feral Winged variations for every subrace would also be identical to the PHB/Infernal/Asmodeus Tiefling except for the Abyssal Tiefling, 57. The Feral Hellfire variations are all unique, thus we can add 9 more variations for a total of 66 Tiefling variants! You could play a different variant each week and wouldn't run out until over a year later (and by then I'm sure they'll have introduced subraces for the Demon Princes as well). The Revenant Tiefling, doesn't factor in to any of these calculations, because it lacks the appropriate feature to trade away.


Emphasis mine.

They have the same ASIs, but not the same spells.
Emphasis mine

I'm specifically talking about if you trade their spells away for one of those three features. An Asmodeus Tiefling with Devil's Tongue and a Mammon Tiefling with Devil's Tongue are identical.

[gloryblaze]

Emphasis mine.

They have the same ASIs, but not the same spells. Therefore, they should be counted and... mathed... separately.

The SCAG features replace the spells, so they become identical once you use the SCAG variant options.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

So, for the record, there's now...

11 different Tiefling variants in Unearthed Arcana (9 here, Asmodeus gets the PHB Tiefling, and Abyssal from That Old Black Magic UA)

Plus all the variant combinations available via SCAG. I'm no mathematician, but I believe that's approximately eleventeen trillion combinations of Tiefling.

Therefore, I am absolutely forced to believe that Crawford is into bondage.

These are facts.

Incorrect; apart from the "Feral" trait (change your ability score modifiers to +2 Dex/+1 Int), all of the variant tiefling racial traits in the Scag are based on replacing the Infernal Legacy trait.

So, you can be one of these "Archdevil Tieflings", an Asmodean (generic) tiefling, a tiefling with wings, a tiefling with Devil's Tongue, a tiefling with Burning Hands instead of Hellish Rebuke or an Abyssal Tiefling. You can't mix and match any of these variants together.

That said... why didn't Levistan or Mephistopholean tieflings gain at least the potential to replace Fire Resistance with Cold Resistance? I mean, yeah, it makes some sense for Mephistopholes, given he's all about being The Lord of Hellfire, but Levistus is heavily associated with ice - wouldn't ice resistance make more sense for his progeny?

Also, anyone noticed that tieflings can cast their gained-at-3rd level 1/day SLA as a 2nd level spell? I thought the norm was that it should be cast as a 1st level spell?

[Beechgnome]

All the different Tieflings don't really do it for me, though a few of them add a few spells to a sorcerer's meagre selection: zariel's strength and smites for a draconic or levistus and Armor of Agathys and Mammon's arcane lock appeal to me.

But as a DM, I appreciate the variant cultist abilities, and I think on the whole any Planes book is going to be for a little more for the DMs, the way Volo's was.

It's clear we can expect a Manual of Planes in 2018, and that any UA we get in the fall is, in part, going to be to plan that book. so I guess the question is, if you want to start play testing future Planescape stuff, what do you want? Playable Modrons? A weird class like the Alienist? A set of rules governing portal keys? Feats tied to the Factions?

[Puh Laden]

Incorrect; apart from the "Feral" trait (change your ability score modifiers to +2 Dex/+1 Int), all of the variant tiefling racial traits in the Scag are based on replacing the Infernal Legacy trait.

So, you can be one of these "Archdevil Tieflings", an Asmodean (generic) tiefling, a tiefling with wings, a tiefling with Devil's Tongue, a tiefling with Burning Hands instead of Hellish Rebuke or an Abyssal Tiefling. You can't mix and match any of these variants together.

Also, anyone noticed that tieflings can cast their gained-at-3rd level 1/day SLA as a 2nd level spell? I thought the norm was that it should be cast as a 1st level spell?

The normal tiefling cast's its 1st level spell (Hellish Rebuke) as a 2nd level spell.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

The normal tiefling cast's its 1st level spell (Hellish Rebuke) as a 2nd level spell.

I know it does, but I literally only just noticed that it does now, which, as I said, I find surprising. Don't all the other races with spell-like abilities cast their spells at the bare minimum caster level?

[Puh Laden]

I know it does, but I literally only just noticed that it does now, which, as I said, I find surprising. Don't all the other races with spell-like abilities cast their spells at the bare minimum caster level?

My theory is that it's because hellish rebuke is relatively weak (requiring getting hurt to use). And all the new tieflings do it because the normal tiefling does.

[Unoriginal]

Man, Zariel's crit boon + high level Fighter sounds scary. Unless I'm mistaken.


Anyway. I like the new lore we got. This fleshes out the Dukes of Hell quite a bit.

Pretty interesting that Geryon conserved his cult-related powers, while Levistus is even more of a loser.

Oh, and Glazya is now a criminal mastermind, which I find both fun and intriguing

[Kane0]

Okay so create subraces/variants by shuffling the +2 and +1 to stats and replacing the cantrip/1st/2nd level spells. New boons which are copied and/or watered down monster features.

The fluff saves this from being a zero-effort.

[Telwar]

Damn it WotC, can't you do one thing right? :smallfurious:

Mephistopheles doesn't have one power that allows you to bring someone back to life by having your wedding annulled?

WotC needs to step up their game if they want people to take them seriously.

Spider-Man/Mephisto "One More Day" reference

Alternate material component for True Resurrection: Two wedding rings?

[jaappleton]

Okay so create subraces/variants by shuffling the +2 and +1 to stats and replacing the cantrip/1st/2nd level spells. New boons which are copied and/or watered down monster features.

The fluff saves this from being a zero-effort.

Thank you. You put my frustration into words.

[Sigreid]

No we definetely didn't, and if this is supposed to be for Halloween its very sad, they could have done so many cooler things, I think the issue is that they are not getting feedback via polls on the UA they have been putting out so there is less incentive to make it good

I think it was written this morning by a hungover intern.

[SharkForce]

well, it isn't terrible. can't say i'm excited, but i'm at least fairly certain they managed to not ruin anything while adding some new options that i suppose some people will be interested in... i give it a C minus. it wasn't very creative or original, i wasn't particularly impressed with the technical aspects, it generally didn't "wow" me, and it was a week late, but it didn't feel like i paid too much for it (and yes, i'm fully aware that UA doesn't cost money, but some of the crap they've shoveled our way wasn't worth "free").

[Unoriginal]

but Levistus is heavily associated with ice - wouldn't ice resistance make more sense for his progeny?

Levistus isn't really known to be *resistant* to ice. Nor had he many chances to leave progeny after his imprisonment.

[mephnick]

Oh boy. More options for my least favourite race!

[Deleted]

Oh boy. More options for my least favourite race!

It wouldn't bug me so much if everyone got the love. Kinda burned out on tieflings

[JumboWheat01]

It wouldn't bug me so much if everyone got the love. Kinda burned out on tieflings

Well, to be fair, the only other race that is predominately "choose your flavor" are elves. Can't really give most other races a lot of other options, because they don't really exist.

[Potato_Priest]

Oh boy. More options for my least favourite race!

Ayyyyup.

Ah well, I suppose it might be nice for the folks who actually play them.

[Kane0]

Y'know if they are doing this with Tieflings, where are all the dragonborn variants? Theres at least 10 just waiting to go with no need for strenuous thought.

[EvilAnagram]

Agreed, 100%.

This allows them to cover Sigil, Eberron, etc.

I don't think we'll get multiple books, each focused on a different setting. I don't see that happening, unfortunately. We'll get Mordenkainen's Guide to the Planes and maybe a Volume 2 in a few years.
Why would you put such hateful thoughts out into the world?

[thoroughlyS]

Well, to be fair, the only other race that is predominately "choose your flavor" are elves. Can't really give most other races a lot of other options, because they don't really exist.
I disagree with the entirety of your argument. Firstly, the dragonborn are another example of a "choose your flavor" race, which have plenty of options to choose from in D&D's history:

There are the gem dragons which are the Neutral to the chromatic's Evil and metallic's Good, as well as being psionic.
There are more chromatic and metallic dragons.
You could take a hint from this article and have subraces descended from specific dragons.

Some variant racial features like we got in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide:

Gnomes with racial magic.
Dwarves that forgo weapon training for something else.
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572365-Dragonborn-Rework&p=23466765) idea I had for fixing dragonborn.

Thirdly, if options don't currently exist make them exist. There is no reason for tieflings to get more subraces when half-orcs still don't have any. Pushing past the PHB for a second, most of the other races are lacking racial options as well:

Kobolds that reflect the magical bent their race has.
Goblins that aren't a soft multiclass into rogue.
A second goliath subrace, considering they were in two books.
Subraces to allow other races to be descended from things (e.g. an azerblood dwarf or a tanarukk orc)
Other iconic races like the gith (e.g. Thri-kreen, shardminds, bariaurs)
Something totally new.

[Kane0]

Don't forget Lizardfolk. Blackscale and Poison Dusk spring to mind.

[Deleted]

Well, to be fair, the only other race that is predominately "choose your flavor" are elves. Can't really give most other races a lot of other options, because they don't really exist.

I'm sorry but that's completly wrong even by WotC's own actions. 3e had tons of variant humans, gnomes, halflings, and other races out the wazoo.

At the very least give me Neanderthal humans.

[Arkhios]

At the very least give me Neanderthal humans.

Orc re-skinned would work rather well, imho.

[Deleted]

Orc re-skinned would work rather well, imho.

Nope.

Neanderthals were quite smart, despite the stigma against them, and they weren't taken out by a smarter race (humans) but interbred with them (if your ancestors came from Europe/Asian then good chance you have neanderthal DNA).

I want a str/int have that has some survival skills and the ability to learn new things (perhaps based arpund weapons, traps, or something).

[Easy_Lee]

Nope.

Neanderthals were quite smart, despite the stigma against them, and they weren't taken out by a smarter race (humans) but interbred with them (if your ancestors came from Europe/Asian then good chance you have neanderthal DNA).

I want a str/int have that has some survival skills and the ability to learn new things (perhaps based arpund weapons, traps, or something).

STR/INT would make them smarter or on-par with the average human. That doesn't make sense to me, given that neanderthals were supposedly less intelligent. Orcs are one thing, but Half-orcs aren't much dumber than humans. Assuming standard human is the standard, Half-orcs are only one point stupider. That's not much.

Half-orcs as neanderthals is close enough.

[Deleted]

STR/INT would make them smarter or on-par with the average human. That doesn't make sense to me, given that neanderthals were supposedly less intelligent. Orcs are one thing, but Half-orcs aren't much dumber than humans. Assuming standard human is the standard, Half-orcs are only one point stupider. That's not much.

Half-orcs as neanderthals is close enough.

Neanderthals weren't less intelligent.

Besides nothing else about the orc screams Neanderthal with the abilities of orcs.

Besides, silver brow humans, illumian, mongrelfolk, skulk, and sharakim can all be expanded upon.

Dwarves, gnomes, and even warforged could go far too. I really loved the ironwood warforged that could be a druid.

[Regitnui]

STR/INT would make them smarter or on-par with the average human. That doesn't make sense to me, given that neanderthals were supposedly less intelligent. Orcs are one thing, but Half-orcs aren't much dumber than humans. Assuming standard human is the standard, Half-orcs are only one point stupider. That's not much.

Half-orcs as neanderthals is close enough.

Resists urge to point out all Caucasians have Neanderthal DNA.

This is odd to say. Neanderthals were just a subspecies of humans. They might as well be a human with the "Tough" feat tweaked for cold regions. Heck, up until a geological blink ago, there were at least three other human species on the planet. None of them were obviously primitive, unless you're going by the standards of "they're not here anymore".

*still reading the rest of the UA*

[Easy_Lee]

Resists urge to point out all Caucasians have Neanderthal DNA.

This is odd to say. Neanderthals were just a subspecies of humans. They might as well be a human with the "Tough" feat tweaked for cold regions. Heck, up until a geological blink ago, there were at least three other human species on the planet. None of them were obviously primitive, unless you're going by the standards of "they're not here anymore".

*still reading the rest of the UA*

In that case, we already have them in the form of standard humans from different areas and with different backgrounds.

Honestly people, versatility is already built into both the standard and variant human. The idea of subraces goes against human versatility.

[Elric VIII]

In that case, we already have them in the form of standard humans from different areas and with different backgrounds.

Honestly people, versatility is already built into both the standard and variant human. The idea of subraces goes against human versatility.

I agree. Alhough, I always liked the pseudo-human races that 3.5 had. Azurin, Imaskari, Illumian, and a while slew of unique planetouched.

[Lombra]

So a rogue of the marilith cult will be able to perform 3 SA in one round.

Edit: missed the boons section, rip.

[samcifer]

Ayyyyup.

Ah well, I suppose it might be nice for the folks who actually play them.





Like me, for example. Really loving the stealth options the Dispater subrace gives and my dm let me change my character as the stat changes have no effect on my modifiers. (10S, 15?D, 12C, 10I, 12W, 18C - formerly 14D and 11I.) Having Disguise Self an Invisibility instead of Burning Hands (instead of Hellish Rebuke vi SCAG) and Darkness is much better as it gives me some non-combat options.

[Deleted]

In that case, we already have them in the form of standard humans from different areas and with different backgrounds.

Honestly people, versatility is already built into both the standard and variant human. The idea of subraces goes against human versatility.

No it doesn't.

Because sub species/sub races of humans are different than the standard humans.

That's like saying that the base Trifling has everything that makes a tiefling a yielding and thete is no reason to have variants.

That's just lazy.

[Knaight]

The UA seems fine to me - it's very much in the form of a big list of content, and it's all planar and default setting stuff that I have no interest in, but it covers exactly what UA is supposed to cover and looks both balanced enough and pretty usable if you do want to center demon lords as antagonists.


No it doesn't.

Because sub species/sub races of humans are different than the standard humans.

That's like saying that the base Trifling has everything that makes a tiefling a yielding and thete is no reason to have variants.

That's just lazy.
Humans core shtick is access to a very wide variety of abilities that reflects wide variety among humans - making a sub race creates a situation where those are human shticks, except for among that subrace. It doesn't really work.

Meanwhile the core shtick of Tieflings is showing some sort of demonic/infernal influence and being highly charismatic. Having a subrace where that influence shows up differently still fits within the core shtick.

[Anonymouswizard]

No it doesn't.

Because sub species/sub races of humans are different than the standard humans.

That's like saying that the base Trifling has everything that makes a tiefling a yielding and thete is no reason to have variants.

That's just lazy.

Really, humans already have two subraces, they're just not called that.

This is how humans should have been written:

Human Traits
Ability Score Increase: +1 to two ability scores of your choice.
Languages: Common plus one other. I recommend something weird that most of civilisation doesn't speak or write, like Sylvain.
Subrace: pick one of the following:
Boring Human
Broad Basline: change the human ability score increase trait to 'add +1 to every ability score'. If using additional ability scores like Honour, Psionics, Comeliness, or Piety add one to those score a well*.
Actually Useful Human
Versatile: gain training in any one skill of your choice.
Inspire Jealously: pick any one feat you meet the prerequisites for. You get that feat, and everybody not playing an Actually Useful Human feels jealous until 4th level.

Honestly, I'd have made Variant human +4 skills instead of +1 skill and a feat, it doesn't give them anything special but it makes them nice and versatile, and I tend to pick Skilled as my vHuman feat anyway.

* This actually makes standard human more viable, the more ability scores there are the better they should be. Although I'm not certain I'd pick standard human until there were 9-10 Ability Scores, an extra skill would go a long way.

[Regitnui]

Back onto the actual subject, I'll try map these cults to the Dark Six and Khyber Cults of Eberron, since the archdevils don't exist there (though Glasya is welcome on my gaming table... Rowr). Mammon is a good match for the Keeper, and Fierna's traits are great for the Fury.

[Dr.Samurai]

- Monday's here. Great, let me prepare to complain about the latest UA.
- What?? It's been delayed? Why didn't they tell us about this until right now?? Oh my god, this is unacceptable. God! First they give us sub-par content, and now they string us along and don't even tell us it won't be coming out today until this very moment. Unbelievable.
- Well, here I am, obsessing over this delayed UA for a week now. It will probably be crap.
- Monday's here, why haven't they dropped the UA yet? First we wait a whole extra week, and now it's not even out in the morning? Now we have to wait until he afternoon? This is getting worse and worse. I don't even know why I expect anything more to be honest. UA is the worst.
- Oh finally, they dropped the UA. We just had to wait until the afternoon. Well, as expected it's awful. Pssh, is anyone surprised? I just wish it would have been worth the delay. Why did we have to wait an extra week and a half day for this content? It's so bad. Did it really take them this long to write this? I wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have to wait so long.
- What do you think is going to be in the next one?
- Probably some more crap piled onto more crap with a side order of more crap. *snicker snicker, high five*

If I had anything to do with UA I would purposely sabotage it for this miserable lot lol. :smallamused:

I'm good with new subraces, but tieflings are like... my least favorite race. Well, maybe they're tied with Dragonborn. But still, not overly enthused about this one. The cult options are cool though.

[Sigreid]

- Monday's here. Great, let me prepare to complain about the latest UA.
- What?? It's been delayed? Why didn't they tell us about this until right now?? Oh my god, this is unacceptable. God! First they give us sub-par content, and now they string us along and don't even tell us it won't be coming out today until this very moment. Unbelievable.
- Well, here I am, obsessing over this delayed UA for a week now. It will probably be crap.
- Monday's here, why haven't they dropped the UA yet? First we wait a whole extra week, and now it's not even out in the morning? Now we have to wait until he afternoon? This is getting worse and worse. I don't even know why I expect anything more to be honest. UA is the worst.
- Oh finally, they dropped the UA. We just had to wait until the afternoon. Well, as expected it's awful. Pssh, is anyone surprised? I just wish it would have been worth the delay. Why did we have to wait an extra week and a half day for this content? It's so bad. Did it really take them this long to write this? I wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have to wait so long.
- What do you think is going to be in the next one?
- Probably some more crap piled onto more crap with a side order of more crap. *snicker snicker, high five*

If I had anything to do with UA I would purposely sabotage it for this miserable lot lol. :smallamused:

I'm good with new subraces, but tieflings are like... my least favorite race. Well, maybe they're tied with Dragonborn. But still, not overly enthused about this one. The cult options are cool though.

The only real value UA has to me is a glimpse of what is rolling around in their heads. A foreshadowing of where they are going a book or two out. Most of it I wouldn't even consider using in a game that wasn't a 1 off lark.

[Mortis_Elrod]

- Monday's here. Great, let me prepare to complain about the latest UA.
- What?? It's been delayed? Why didn't they tell us about this until right now?? Oh my god, this is unacceptable. God! First they give us sub-par content, and now they string us along and don't even tell us it won't be coming out today until this very moment. Unbelievable.
- Well, here I am, obsessing over this delayed UA for a week now. It will probably be crap.
- Monday's here, why haven't they dropped the UA yet? First we wait a whole extra week, and now it's not even out in the morning? Now we have to wait until he afternoon? This is getting worse and worse. I don't even know why I expect anything more to be honest. UA is the worst.
- Oh finally, they dropped the UA. We just had to wait until the afternoon. Well, as expected it's awful. Pssh, is anyone surprised? I just wish it would have been worth the delay. Why did we have to wait an extra week and a half day for this content? It's so bad. Did it really take them this long to write this? I wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have to wait so long.
- What do you think is going to be in the next one?
- Probably some more crap piled onto more crap with a side order of more crap. *snicker snicker, high five*

If I had anything to do with UA I would purposely sabotage it for this miserable lot lol. :smallamused:

I'm good with new subraces, but tieflings are like... my least favorite race. Well, maybe they're tied with Dragonborn. But still, not overly enthused about this one. The cult options are cool though.
Ok you might saying we shouldn't complain so much about it( or something) but you got me spot on. But you know what?

Still doesn't mean they couldn't have told us in advance for the delay, and doesn't tell us why they had to wait till the afternoon when they did post the UA instead of usual time. They know what they do to us.

That being said I actually like the UA but, I use teiflings for everything so it works out for me.

[alchahest]

I actually really like the content. stuff for players and for DMs. And it's got a halloweeny theme.

[Potato_Priest]

Really, humans already have two subraces, they're just not called that.

This is how humans should have been written:

Human Traits
Ability Score Increase: +1 to two ability scores of your choice.
Languages: Common plus one other. I recommend something weird that most of civilisation doesn't speak or write, like Sylvain.
Subrace: pick one of the following:
Boring Human
Broad Basline: change the human ability score increase trait to 'add +1 to every ability score'. If using additional ability scores like Honour, Psionics, Comeliness, or Piety add one to those score a well*.
Actually Useful Human
Versatile: gain training in any one skill of your choice.
Inspire Jealously: pick any one feat you meet the prerequisites for. You get that feat, and everybody not playing an Actually Useful Human feels jealous until 4th level.


I like this. "Inspire Jealosy" is such a fitting feature name.

[Waterdeep Merch]

- Monday's here. Great, let me prepare to complain about the latest UA.
- What?? It's been delayed? Why didn't they tell us about this until right now?? Oh my god, this is unacceptable. God! First they give us sub-par content, and now they string us along and don't even tell us it won't be coming out today until this very moment. Unbelievable.
- Well, here I am, obsessing over this delayed UA for a week now. It will probably be crap.
- Monday's here, why haven't they dropped the UA yet? First we wait a whole extra week, and now it's not even out in the morning? Now we have to wait until he afternoon? This is getting worse and worse. I don't even know why I expect anything more to be honest. UA is the worst.
- Oh finally, they dropped the UA. We just had to wait until the afternoon. Well, as expected it's awful. Pssh, is anyone surprised? I just wish it would have been worth the delay. Why did we have to wait an extra week and a half day for this content? It's so bad. Did it really take them this long to write this? I wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have to wait so long.
- What do you think is going to be in the next one?
- Probably some more crap piled onto more crap with a side order of more crap. *snicker snicker, high five*

If I had anything to do with UA I would purposely sabotage it for this miserable lot lol. :smallamused:

I'm good with new subraces, but tieflings are like... my least favorite race. Well, maybe they're tied with Dragonborn. But still, not overly enthused about this one. The cult options are cool though.
If you want to drive a person crazy, tell them to wait.

I don't entirely mind bad UA's as much as boring ones. Complaining's both more fun and more productive- part of the point to UA articles is nitpicking the latest official ideas, part of it is inspiring the reader. In that regard, at least, even universally loathed crap like Greyhawk Initiative was a resounding success.

Remember how many custom initiative systems came out around then by grumpy DM's that thought they could do better? Some were pretty good!

[Jamesps]

STR/INT would make them smarter or on-par with the average human. That doesn't make sense to me, given that neanderthals were supposedly less intelligent. Orcs are one thing, but Half-orcs aren't much dumber than humans. Assuming standard human is the standard, Half-orcs are only one point stupider. That's not much.

Half-orcs as neanderthals is close enough.

Neanderthals had larger brain:body-mass ratios, suggesting they actually were smarter than present day humans.

[Easy_Lee]

Neanderthals had larger brain:body-mass ratios, suggesting they actually were smarter than present day humans.

Read my other post. If we're going with the assumption that Neanderthals were near-human, then they're just standard humans. Humans in D&D have more variety than any other race, even if they all use the same (or near the same) racial traits.

[Unoriginal]

Neanderthals had larger brain:body-mass ratios, suggesting they actually were smarter than present day humans.

Actually, they had larger brains because the parts concerning their more developed senses (notably their eyesight) took more place

However, apparently researchers do consider the Neanderthal weren't less intelligent than us, although their brains developed more slowly. (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-41351019)

[mephnick]

I just don't understand why Tieflings get so much time spent on them when other races that actually need work (Dragonborn) are ignored completely.

I know they're popular for some unknowable reason, but how many damn tieflings do you need?

[Soular]

Neanderthals were quite smart, despite the stigma against them, and they weren't taken out by a smarter race (humans) but interbred with them (if your ancestors came from Europe/Asian then good chance you have neanderthal DNA).

So we f***ed them out of existence? Cool.

[Lombra]

I just don't understand why Tieflings get so much time spent on them when other races that actually need work (Dragonborn) are ignored completely.

I know they're popular for some unknowable reason, but how many damn tieflings do you need?

Maybe they're holding back the dragonborn rework/improvement to make a merry surprise at Xanathar's deploy :)

Plus on XGtE there will be racial feats, so dragonborn will become way more appealing. (I'd give a free racial feat at level 1 if you are playing a dragonborn tbh)

[alchahest]

Tieflings are popular because they're different, and have a set of core features that are pretty well implemented, and easy to adjust. Similar to Elves or Dwarves in that regard.

Dragonborn would probably be too, if their cool defining features weren't a little messy - keying a decent, if low power effect off of a stat they do not get a bonus to, having heavy scaled skin and no natural AC bonus like lizardmen, for example.

It's hard to make interesting variations when the theme doesn't deliver at it's core.

If you were to start from a different base:

+2 Str, +1 Cha
Unarmored AC Bonus +1 (instead of changing the formula adds 1 to unarmored AC, so it is intentionally compatible with monk, barbarian, and dragon sorc)

Breath Weapon: keep damage as-is, but key it off of Strength. Lungs need strong muscles!
Damage Resist: keep as-is

give each dragon type proficiency in a skill. Reds: intimidate, for example. there will be overlap but the differences can be made by the types of breath weapon.

[Sariel Vailo]

Midty shadows i like your tieflings better

[DarkKnightJin]

Maybe they're holding back the dragonborn rework/improvement to make a merry surprise at Xanathar's deploy :)

Plus on XGtE there will be racial feats, so dragonborn will become way more appealing. (I'd give a free racial feat at level 1 if you are playing a dragonborn tbh)

To be fair, they kinda need that racial feat bump to get on par with the other race options..

[Sariel Vailo]

Aasimar is Fine right guys.......right

[alchahest]

the new Aasimar have potent abilities, maybe we'll see them refined and solidified in a later book!

[jaappleton]

We have upwards of 40 or so possible Tiefling variants but we still don’t have Draconians, which are actually mentioned in the PHB.

[alchahest]

I think it relates to the base racial traits being largely uninteresting. it's hard to modify the small set of abilities they have without removing things entirely, or making the new options strictly an upgrade

[DracoKnight]

the new Aasimar have potent abilities, maybe we'll see them refined and solidified in a later book!

What is there to refine and solidify? The Aasimar we got is the Aasimar we’re getting.

[Sigreid]

So we f***ed them out of existence? Cool.

That is essentially how evolution works, yeah.

[alchahest]

What is there to refine and solidify? The Aasimar we got is the Aasimar we’re getting.

Poorly worded, apologies. I meant they could further split down the subraces like with Tieflings. And adding them in a book like like Xanathar's (but for races) would solidify them as "canon" or what have you.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Poorly worded, apologies. I meant they could further split down the subraces like with Tieflings. And adding them in a book like like Xanathar's (but for races) would solidify them as "canon" or what have you.

Maybe the next few books are going to guides. Elminster's Guide to Magic. X's Guide to the Multiverse

[Regitnui]

Maybe the next few books are going to guides. Elminster's Guide to Magic. X's Guide to the Multiverse

Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron...

[alchahest]

a full blown eberron book would be amazing. especially if Keith Baker were invited back.

[Foxhound438]

So we f***ed them out of existence? Cool.

actually laughed at this, thanks.

[DarkKnightJin]

I think it relates to the base racial traits being largely uninteresting. it's hard to modify the small set of abilities they have without removing things entirely, or making the new options strictly an upgrade

I'm okay with making the PHB Dragonborn the 'base' class, with the new subraces simply adding a few things to flavor. Bahamut knows they could use the love..

[Dr.Samurai]

To be fair, they kinda need that racial feat bump to get on par with the other race options..
- Tieflings? Let's give them an option in a hardcover book they can swap for at character creation that gives them a fly speed of 30ft.

- What about dragonborn? Dragons have wings too.

- Oh right. Uh.. let's introduce an option in UA. We'll make it a feat, so they can't get it until level 4 and they have to forgo their ASI. We'll say... fly speed of 20ft? Yeah, that all sounds good.

[DarkKnightJin]

- Tieflings? Let's give them an option in a hardcover book they can swap for at character creation that gives them a fly speed of 30ft.

- What about dragonborn? Dragons have wings too.

- Oh right. Uh.. let's introduce an option in UA. We'll make it a feat, so they can't get it until level 4 and they have to forgo their ASI. We'll say... fly speed of 20ft? Yeah, that all sounds good.

That's why I responded to a post concerning a free racial feat at 1st level for Dragonborn.

I agree, though. Dragonborn have been kinda left out in the cold as far as features go. And unless they're Silver or White Dragonborn, they're gonna be piiiiiiiissed.

[Aett_Thorn]

I just wish that Dragonborn in general had been given a bit more options than what they have now. Surely, they are a varied race, right?

Something like -

Dragonborn:
Size - Medium
Speed - 30'
Age - As in the PHB
Stats - Get +2 Str

Racial Features -

Choose a Dragon Ancestry for your Dragonborn character. This choice will give them +1 to a secondary stat, and will determine their variety of racial features based on the type that they choose.



Dragon Ancestry Table
Dragon Damage Type Breath Weapon Stat
Black Acid 5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save) +1 Cha
Blue Lightning 5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save) +1 Wis
Brass Fire 5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save) +1 Cha
Bronze Lightning 5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save) +1 Wis
Copper Acid 5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save) +1 Int
Gold Fire 15 ft. cone (Dex. save) +1 Int
Green Poison 15 ft. cone (Con. save) +1 Int
Red Fire 15 ft. cone (Dex. save) +1 Cha
Silver Cold 15 ft. cone (Con. save) +1 Wis
White Cold 15 ft. cone (Con. save) +1 Con
Amethyst Force 20' Range 10' radius AoE (Dex. Save) +1 Wis
Crystal Radiant 5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save) +1 Cha
Emerald Thunder 5 by 30 ft. line (Dex. save) +1 Int
Sapphire Thunder 15 ft. cone (Con save) +1 Int
Topaz Necrotic 15 ft. cone (Con. save) +1 Cha


Also, choose 3 of the following ancestral features:

Breath Weapon: You are able to utilize a breath weapon similar to true dragons. You gain a breathe weapon usable 1/short rest based on your dragon ancestry, as seen in the Dragon Ancestry Table.

Claws: You have inherited a strong, sharp set of claws from your ancestors. You unarmed strikes do 1d6+Str Slashing damage

Eyes: You have darkvision out to 60'

Resistance: Your draconic blood gives you resistance to the damage type associated with your dragon ancestry, as shown in the dragon ancestry table

Scales: You have a natural armor class of 13

Knowledge: You have proficiency in two of the following skills - Arcana, History, Nature, Religion

Wings: You have a 30' flight speed, as long as you are not encumbered and are not wearing heavy armor (trying to put some limits on this to not make it too OP)

[mr-mercer]

As everyone says, the dragonborn really needs some support: it's a beautiful concept that they just seem to be ignoring for the most part.

In addition, I feel like there's a lot that could be done with the genasi template, even if you don't call the new subraces types of genasi: I'd like to see an equivalent with lightning, for instance.

[samcifer]

Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron...

If they do make an Eberron book, I hope they include the Warforged and give them a +2 INT option. Love the idea of a Warforged summoner wizard, but never got to play one in 4e.

[Dr.Samurai]

That's why I responded to a post concerning a free racial feat at 1st level for Dragonborn.
I agree with you :smallcool:. I remember when the UA feats came out and I'm like... feats for claws? And wings? Tieflings and Lizardfolk get this stuff already. I'm looking at the Dragonborn racial features like... what do they get that prevents them from getting claws or wings or something?

I agree, though. Dragonborn have been kinda left out in the cold as far as features go. And unless they're Silver or White Dragonborn, they're gonna be piiiiiiiissed.
LOL

If they do make an Eberron book, I hope they include the Warforged and give them a +2 INT option. Love the idea of a Warforged summoner wizard, but never got to play one in 4e.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTtmKnrjlKHRBlhYwCPxUb-Z7GywuLa8kLeGsS_Psdw3G3sofi-

[SharkForce]

gotta admit, "we're making dragonborn less awful" would have been much more interesting than tieflings for me. the problem there, i think, is that dragonborn pretty much need a full rewrite, because their baseline just doesn't really give you much of anything to work with, while tieflings were close enough that they could be given options without admitting that they didn't do a very good job on tieflings in the first place.

so, basically... properly fixing dragonborn would require that they acknowledge they screwed up, and they don't seem to be willing to do that. would've been nice, but i'm not expecting anything any time soon, sadly.

[jaappleton]

gotta admit, "we're making dragonborn less awful" would have been much more interesting than tieflings for me. the problem there, i think, is that dragonborn pretty much need a full rewrite, because their baseline just doesn't really give you much of anything to work with, while tieflings were close enough that they could be given options without admitting that they didn't do a very good job on tieflings in the first place.

so, basically... properly fixing dragonborn would require that they acknowledge they screwed up, and they don't seem to be willing to do that. would've been nice, but i'm not expecting anything any time soon, sadly.

https://koboldpress.com/heritage-of-heroes-gem-dragonborn/

I found this a couple weeks back, it does a lot to make Dragonborn with a damn.

Gem Dragonborn by Kobold Press.

[DracoKnight]

https://koboldpress.com/heritage-of-heroes-gem-dragonborn/

I found this a couple weeks back, it does a lot to make Dragonborn with a damn.

Gem Dragonborn by Kobold Press.

Ah, yes. I love this. And my DM hates you xD

[Mister_Squinty]

https://koboldpress.com/heritage-of-heroes-gem-dragonborn/

I found this a couple weeks back, it does a lot to make Dragonborn with a damn.

Gem Dragonborn by Kobold Press.

"Immune to Exhaustion"? The Berzerker Barbarian population just exploded with Topaz Dragonborn!

[DracoKnight]

"Immune to Exhaustion"? The Berzerker Barbarian population just exploded with Topaz Dragonborn!

Just. No. You have advantage to resist exhaustion, not immunity to the condition. And Berserker does not allow for a save.

[Vaz]

"Immune to Exhaustion"? The Berzerker Barbarian population just exploded with Topaz Dragonborn!
Not so much a bad thing. I've ran a 1 shot tonight with a Cultist Barbarian Boss of a Marilith who had fun with his two reactions. I houseruled that the same action could not trigger both Reactions. (ie 2x Retaliation could not be triggered by being hit once).

[SharkForce]

"Immune to Exhaustion"? The Berzerker Barbarian population just exploded with Topaz Dragonborn!

it isn't immunity, it's resistance. advantage on saving throws to avoid exhaustion isn't much use when you aren't allowed a saving throw ;)

[jaappleton]

Ya'll just gonna gloss over the (I think) Diamond Dragonborn that can Blind enemies once per short rest?

Diamond Dragon Paladin FTW

[Saiga]

gotta admit, "we're making dragonborn less awful" would have been much more interesting than tieflings for me. the problem there, i think, is that dragonborn pretty much need a full rewrite, because their baseline just doesn't really give you much of anything to work with, while tieflings were close enough that they could be given options without admitting that they didn't do a very good job on tieflings in the first place.

so, basically... properly fixing dragonborn would require that they acknowledge they screwed up, and they don't seem to be willing to do that. would've been nice, but i'm not expecting anything any time soon, sadly.

Why do you consider Tieflings not to be very well handled? I'm curious as I hadn't heard of this before.

[SharkForce]

Why do you consider Tieflings not to be very well handled? I'm curious as I hadn't heard of this before.

i don't see too many people really excited to play them. i do think the variants they added helped somewhat there, and like i said, it's easy to make more options that can catch someone's interest.

they were never really lacking in "having stuff", just more lacking in cohesion of the stuff that they had. in contrast, something like a half-orc probably has less raw power, but all their stuff really speaks to a single theme. there isn't as much total power, but all that power is themed around being a tough, damaging melee warrior of some kind. you look at tiefling (especially PHB tiefling) and you've got cha/int (which doesn't really lend itself to a single class particularly well), darkvision (which is somewhat wasted on a typical warlock, which is probably the closest "theme" a tiefling might be considered to have), fire resistance (which is nice in general, but warlocks aren't generally that closely tied-in with fire magic) and a couple of 1/day spells that don't really do anything with their other features (darkness, for example, will cancel out the tiefling's own darkvision).

they weren't terrible or anything, but they kinda lacked focus. so, fairly easy to improve, if you give them some options for all those different features they can start choosing options that fit together.

[Potato_Priest]

We have upwards of 40 or so possible Tiefling variants but we still don’t have Draconians, which are actually mentioned in the PHB.

What page?

[samcifer]

I love tieflings, personally speaking. Them along with Warforged are my two favorite races. The less human, the better, imo

[DracoKnight]

What page?

It’s a noteblock on one of the Dragonborn pages...page 34 to be precise.