Sandstorm magic - underpowered for sorcerers?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

So I'm starting a Sorcerer in 3.5, using the Sandstorm supplement (the game will be a in desert and in nearby lands - the GM said it would be about border conflicts, colonisation, and spreading the desert or stopping the horrors that have slumbered beneath it). It will probably be a game with one other player (the player usually always picks rogue, or sometimes a cleric).

Looking through the spells in the book, I was struck by how cool they were... but how subpar they felt!
Flesh to salt seems like a stone to flesh that's even less likely to work, for example. Haboob seems like it should be a level lower, and spells like dessicate seem okay, but still inferior to their existing equivalents at that level (they deal less damage for example).

The Touchstone feat (which is very flavorful) isn't that great and it's requirements are pretty hard to meet. The Dirt Magic (or whatever) feat is even worse - it seemed really cool and then it only gave a marginal bonus in some areas :/ Planar travel and cities make seem to make the feat useless.

Are you paying for flavour? If so it seems easier to ask my GM to let me reskin some other abilities. Taking a few Reserve feats and altering them a little (making fiery burst not deal fire damage but be based on a short shredding burst of sand, for example) could make for a PC who feels like a true desert mage but who also isn't weakened.

Becoming a sand shaper already makes you lose a spellcasting level, and the extra spells known mostly seem underwhelming. Getting the ability buff spells seems like the only real win here, and even then most PCs have gear that does that already for they let ability by level seven.

Or am I looking at this wrong? A lot of the spells given seemed to deal less damage, but also make the target dehydrated (fatigued), or blow them around a bit. Are those also great? Will these spells seem better once I've played them?

And is there a way for sorcerers to eventually get Flash Flood or other ways to remodel the landscape on a large scale (preferably sand-based) in combat, or in a few minutes?

I love the flavour of the Sandstorm spells, but so far most of them will go to NPCs.

[Psyren]

Most people use the class with spontaneous casters that know their entire list, and whose normal lists are weaker to begin with/have very little variety, like Warmages. You're correct that the spells here are weak for a sorcerer, but that's because sorcerers get the best spell list in the game anyway and have much better PrCs to choose from besides.

[Eldariel]

Some of them are pretty good. Wall of Salt is incredible for...generating Salt (a very valuable item), while Wall of Sand is a very solid combination of CC and battlefield shaping. Haboob is a solid multithreat CC/damage effect (small damage per turn but adds up over time in cramped quarters), Summon Desert Ally-line has some useful applications with the breath weapons on command (it's HD-based so generally you just pick the high HD options such as Vermin summons), etc. But yeah, they're not quite top tier at any use aside from perhaps Wall of Salt & Sand (Wall of Sand got improved in Spell Compendium, btw), which are quite great. Best part is, Sandshaper gets all of them - albeit at the cost of a caster level. They may not be top tier spells in all cases but adding so many spells on your list does give you way higher chance of having just the spell for any given job.

Regarding Wall of Salt, here's what Darrin said about it:

KA "Free Money". Salt is a trade good with a fixed price, so a 7th level caster can create about 102 cubic feet of salt. Rock salt weighs about 80 lbs per cubic foot, so 102 cubic feet = 8160 lbs of salt. At 5 GP per pound, that's 40,800 GP of trade goods.

Which is totally bonkers - though of course, you should consider how much you want to abuse breaking wealth in normal tables. But the option is there and if you just need a bunch of money for some quest, cornering the salt market is a good option (though of course, you aren't the only one with the ability so it probably won't last long).


I used the class for my rendition of Koth from Red Hand of Doom to great effect, complete with the sand to get the class buffs (and of course Shapesand).

[Anthrowhale]

It's also worth remembering that every 2 levels a sorcerer can trade a spell known for another spell known so "fuel for trade-in" has some value.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's a lot of spells for fairly little investment. As Psyren noted, it's best on classes like the Warmage or Duskblade that have short, specific lists, but it's a solid trade-off. The animal's ____ buffs, Speak With Animals, Resist Energy, Dispel Magic, Wind Wall and Whirlwind are all useful spells; Slipsand and Wall of Sand are useful BFC, Blast of Sand and Flaywind Burst are no-SR blasting, Mummify is early-access Finger of Death, and Summon Desert Ally is useful for a few levels, at least. It covers a bunch of essential points, leaving the rest of your slots open for more specific spells.

[radthemad4]

And is there a way for sorcerers to eventually get Flash Flood or other ways to remodel the landscape on a large scale (preferably sand-based) in combat, or in a few minutes?
There's well... this:

A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however. It's ridiculously vague, but could arguably be used to make a case to get a few off list spells known.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Grod, good point about the early access. I hadn't checked, but it does seem that all those "weaker" spells come a level before their more powerful Core equivalent. For a Sorcerer who's already lost a level of spellcasting progression, that's huge!

Still, I wouldn't have lost that level if I hadn't taken the class...
But then I can retrain all those "summon desert ally X" spells into good stuff later. Maybe more desert-themed spells, but better ones?

Hmm, hard decision, but I might just take it. Getting knowledge (nature) and survival seems important in a desert campaign anyway, so it isn't this much of a cost. I'll probably be a human with Able Learner anyway...
Yeah, I'll take seven levels in Sand shaper.
Meanwhile I can always put a few skill points into all those awesome social skills, and then take a one-level dip into Mindbender or Fatespinner later.

[Hellpyre]

There's well... this:
It's ridiculously vague, but could arguably be used to make a case to get a few off list spells known.

I believe that bolded phrase is in reference to the researching a new spell section, which states that a Sorcerer can research a new spell as a Wizard can, and then pick that for one of her new spells known at level up.

[Cruiser1]

Some of them are pretty good. Wall of Salt is incredible for...generating Salt (a very valuable item),
Which is totally bonkers - though of course, you should consider how much you want to abuse breaking wealth in normal tables. But the option is there and if you just need a bunch of money for some quest, cornering the salt market is a good option (though of course, you aren't the only one with the ability so it probably won't last long).
The way I rule it is that casting Wall of Salt doesn't create edible table salt (Sodium Chloride, or NaCl). There are numerous types of chemical salts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry)#Properties), of which table salt is only one among many. To keep table salt as a valuable trade good worth 5gp per lb that can't just be mass produced by any 7th level caster, RAI is obviously that Wall of Salt instead brings forth a mixture of various inedible chemical salts, which aren't useful and therefore have no value.

[Fizban]

From Sandshaper: Aside from the early buffs and waste survival, Haboob is pretty significant with fog+unstoppable damage every round for several minutes. Blast of Sand and Flaywind Burst aren't great, but they'll do the job and free up other slots. Sandstorm is just Control Winds with extra sand, normally both are Druid exclusive. And while I'll be the first to point out how Summon Desert Ally is garbage, a breakdown here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13865625&postcount=5) has at least done the sorting already.

[Coidzor]

You get a bunch of slightly less good than the ideal tool for the job spells, but it increases your versatility and it means you don't have to focus your more limited spells on several areas where you want to have the option of addressing the situation but a mediocre option will suffice.

For the fixed list casters, it means that they get something to cover areas that they didn't have any tools at all, so mediocre tools beat no tools at all.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The way I rule it is that casting Wall of Salt doesn't create edible table salt (Sodium Chloride, or NaCl). There are numerous types of chemical salts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry)#Properties), of which table salt is only one among many. To keep table salt as a valuable trade good worth 5gp per lb that can't just be mass produced by any 7th level caster, RAI is obviously that Wall of Salt instead brings forth a mixture of various inedible chemical salts, which aren't useful and therefore have no value.
"It's not pure enough to be edible salt" isn't a bad ruling, but be careful about mixing chemistry into things. You don't want people going "I cast Wall of Salt to make silver fulminate! It explodes!"

[Cosi]

Also, trying to fix the specific infinite wealth tricks will never work, because there will always be some way to make more money than you are supposed to have. What you need to fix is the reality that having more wealth than WBL indicates you should have breaks the game. Because that's the problem. Change that, and no one cares what wall of salt produces. Don't change that and even if you fix wall of salt and wall of iron and every other problem spell, players will still figure out that they can sell the baron's castle, or empty the gemstone mine, or strip the city of gold.

[Fouredged Sword]

Worth noting it also adds the spells to your spell known ALL AT ONCE. Using versatile spellcaster you can actually catch up to wizard max castable spell level progression if you are only casting sandshaper spells.

[Eldariel]

And while I'll be the first to point out how Summon Desert Ally is garbage, a breakdown here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13865625&postcount=5) has at least done the sorting already.

Summon Desert Ally Sandblast isn't entirely inconsequential. It's a 10' cone so a small AOE all things considered but it can do some damage; higher up e.g. a bunch of Gargantuan Monstrous Centipedes hits for 6d6 each for a total of 24d6 off 4 of them (8th level slot) plus a bunch of reasonable bodies to hit things with afterwards. Now, that's not impressive for an 8th level slot (Summon Monster for Storm Elementals are way, way better vs. things without elemental resistances and e.g. Bralani Eladrin spamming Lightning Bolt are more than competitive too) but it's untyped damage, it's AOE and it leaves behind something you can use and it bypasses AC (Evasion is rare enough). Of course, Vermin Charisma does suck so the DC isn't anything to write home about; practically speaking expect half the amount most of the time.

They're fairly reasonable bruisers particularly on low levels though. They're Conjuration: Summoning so if you have Augment, they benefit, and they get +4 Str so they can hit fairly hard if that's all they do. And they have a lot of HP at low HD counts thanks to Construct bonuses. And of course they can serve as temporary mounts and Aid Another bots and distractions/tanks (there's Bat Swarm on the 3rd level list for instance) and crucially they bring Blindsight 60' to the table immediately to counter Invisibility-effects (party-wise they can inform you of the target's location too) so overall, a reasonable amount of utility that's worth keeping in mind.

[Fizban]

All of which requires a significant amount of analysis. Glancing at the list shows a bunch of inferior creatures, and the template strips them of all the special abilities you'd expect from either of the standard summoning spells. I still hate the Dustform template itself, but with a guide SDA is usable.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

All of which requires a significant amount of analysis. Glancing at the list shows a bunch of inferior creatures, and the template strips them of all the special abilities you'd expect from either of the standard summoning spells. I still hate the Dustform template itself, but with a guide SDA is usable.

Wait, there is a guide? Actually, a good sorcerer guide or two on this site would be nice. Is there a "most useful threads" index or something?
And what's so bad about the Dustform template? I thought that's apart from the vulnerability to bludgeoning crits it didn't have any specific downsides apart from generally being "meh".

[Nifft]

Wait, there is a guide?
Link's here:
Summon Desert Ally is garbage, a breakdown here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13865625&postcount=5) has at least done the sorting already.



And what's so bad about the Dustform template? I thought that's apart from the vulnerability to bludgeoning crits it didn't have any specific downsides apart from generally being "meh".
Losing access to SLAs removes a chunk of value from the creature list.

Summon Monster 4+ is optimally not used for combat meat (though the fact that it can do that additionally is a bonus), but rather for access to spells that you didn't want to spend your limited slots learning and/or preparing.

Summon Desert Ally is adequate as combat meat, but combat meat was not the main utility of the Summon Monster spell. So SDA is inferior to a Summon Monster spell.


That's fine, IMHO, because as a Sorcerer + Sand Shaper you don't learn SDA in place of something else. You learn it in addition to your "good" spells. So the niche use of combat meat is perfectly acceptable.

Since good spells get more common as spell level increases, the Sand Shaper bonus spell list is great: you get lots of different uses for your otherwise-obsolete spell levels, and your highest level spells already have wonderful utility because you choose good spells.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Link's here:
Oh yeah, that link that I can't open :'(
Does it work for you?
Is it a page on this site or a Google Drive document?

[Nifft]

Oh yeah, that link that I can't open :'(
Does it work for you?
Is it a page on this site or a Google Drive document?

It's a link to a single post in a thread, maybe that's somehow weird for some browsers?

Here's the containing thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5

[jdizzlean]

it's not sorc based, but i've always thought the walker in the waste PRC from sandstorm was pretty cool. you could get into that for a single feat and a 1 lvl dip into cleric.

[Fizban]

Losing access to SLAs removes a chunk of value from the creature list.
The SDA creature list doesn't have any major SLA users that I'm aware of: it's the loss of Ex abilities. All those scorpions? No improved grab, no constrict, no poison. Dire Jackal? No trip. Deinonychus? No pounce. Elephant? No trample. Rhino? No powerful charge. Locust Swarm? No distraction. T-Rex? No swallow whole. And so on. In order to evaluate the creatures you must manually apply the template to them and then compare the result back to other summons, keeping in mind derived tactics like masses of high HD/low stats for breath attacks.

[Eldariel]

Basically, on low levels it's insane. E.g. Serval with 16 base Str and 15 HP absolutely crushes any comparable level Summon Monster spells (and Augment Summon adds up to 20 Str for 2x 1d3+5 at +6 and 1d4+2 at +1 Bite). And it comes with Blindsight and DR. In general, you retain special abilities, but lose special attacks. Then you gain the sandblast, which is somewhat niche but nice as mentioned above. Mostly, it starts out really strong like Conjure Ice Beast but compatible with Summon feats, and it slowly grows weaker but even higher up it has some utility - mostly sandblast, blindsight and incidental bruisers (the Vermins in particular are pretty hardy and hit reasonably hard when we get to gargantuan+ sizes).

[TalonOfAnathrax]

It's a link to a single post in a thread, maybe that's somehow weird for some browsers?

Here's the containing thread:


Thank you!

[lbuttitta]

The way I rule it is that casting Wall of Salt doesn't create edible table salt (Sodium Chloride, or NaCl). There are numerous types of chemical salts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry)#Properties), of which table salt is only one among many. To keep table salt as a valuable trade good worth 5gp per lb that can't just be mass produced by any 7th level caster, RAI is obviously that Wall of Salt instead brings forth a mixture of various inedible chemical salts, which aren't useful and therefore have no value.
Then just sell it to an alchemist instead. I can totally see an alchemist buying a bunch of chemical salts for some sort of experiment.

[Jack_Simth]

I believe that bolded phrase is in reference to the researching a new spell section, which states that a Sorcerer can research a new spell as a Wizard can, and then pick that for one of her new spells known at level up.
They're the only class with the "primarily from" and "or they can be unusual" wording in their class's spell description. No other class has that (except, perhaps, via inheritance). Additionally, spell research is under adding spells to a wizard's spell book, and under new divine spells. Sorcerers use a different section... which also reiterates the some understanding through study. There's no mechanics attached to it (no listed costs, no listed level translation, no listed limit to how many violates "primarily from", et cetera), but Sorcerers can get cross-list spells natively.


Then just sell it to an alchemist instead. I can totally see an alchemist buying a bunch of chemical salts for some sort of experiment.
They'd want it mostly pure. It's going to be very niche, so you can maybe make that sale once.

[Anthrowhale]

Whenever the sorcerer spells discussion comes up I'm reminded of the Generic Spellcaster (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster) which has explicit access to Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer/Wizard spells.