condensing prestige classes

[Mike Miller]

I'm in the middle of condensing as many prestige classes as much as possible. My goal is to make more prestige classes viable for more characters, because sometimes you may want a class that simply doesn't fit in your build. Removing dead levels and pushing relatively useless "specials" to other levels is my primary method. A couple examples of relatively useless "specials" are levels where you only get sneak attack damage or when you only get a bonus feat, either a specific feat or from an awful list. I am trying not to alter the classes themselves beyond shuffling and condensing.

Two things came to mind after I started. One, was that it could increase power significantly by accessing more abilities faster. For me this isn't an issue because I generally have lower powered campaigns and my players don't abuse power. However, I could see it being an issue in general. The other outcome I considered was that it would have the opposite of my intended outcome. Instead of more prestige classes being taken to completion, fewer would see capstones because they become even more dip-friendly.

What other possible outcomes am I not thinking of, if any? What else should I consider when doing this? Again, my goal is to make completing prestige classes more likely without altering how the classes function. If people are interested, I will post in homebrew when I am done.

[Cyrocloud]

Kind of a different thought here, but have you thought of turning them into VMC instead of just shortening the levels.

[Bakkan]

I have a clarification to request regarding your goals. What is it about completing prestige classes, rather than dipping them, that makes the game better for you? If you condense prestige class X down so that relevant ability Y is now at level 2 of 5 rather than 4 of 10, so that now people get ability Y more often, does it matter that they are only taking 2 levels of the class?

[Mike Miller]

Kind of a different thought here, but have you thought of turning them into VMC instead of just shortening the levels.

I am not familiar with VMC. Although a quick google search found variant multiclassing, which I had not heard of before. Something to consider, I suppose. However, for now I am still interested in condensing them, as VMC appears to be more of a min-max route that lacks flavor of unique class combinations.

To me, VMC looks like you just grab abilities you want from other classes without any explanation as to why except because you wanted them. It doesn't make sense from an in-character perspective.



I have a clarification to request regarding your goals. What is it about completing prestige classes, rather than dipping them, that makes the game better for you? If you condense prestige class X down so that relevant ability Y is now at level 2 of 5 rather than 4 of 10, so that now people get ability Y more often, does it matter than they are only taking 2 levels of the class?

Good question. To clarify, (for me) taking a class through to completion holds an in-character growth aspect. It means more to me in-character that someone goes base 5/prc 10/prc 5 than base 7/ prc 2/ prc 2 / prc 3 / prc 3/ /prc 2 / prc 1. It just feels like the character doesn't hold an identity with all the dips and no capstones. Somehow, completing a class is definitive for me. So I feel that it isn't about the abilities themselves, so much as being a cohesive character. By giving the player an incentive to pick less common PrCs (in this case, it won't consume as many levels of their build), perhaps different characters can develop. Or at least, that was sort of what I had in mind initially. Although I hadn't put the feelings to words yet. Now I have.

[Nifft]

What other possible outcomes am I not thinking of, if any? What else should I consider when doing this? Again, my goal is to make completing prestige classes more likely without altering how the classes function. If people are interested, I will post in homebrew when I am done.

Potential problem: PrC abilities become available before that ability would by standard class levels.

Solution: Instead of granting abilities per PrC level, some ability unlocks require both PrC level and total HD. "When you have at least X hit dice, you gain this ability: _______."

[Mike Miller]

Potential problem: PrC abilities become available before that ability would by standard class levels.

Solution: Instead of granting abilities per PrC level, some ability unlocks require both PrC level and total HD. "When you have at least X hit dice, you gain this ability: _______."

I had thought of that while looking at some PrCs, but I haven't actually had it become an issue yet. I feel like the ones I've noticed as potentially violating the principle are Hide in plain sight and opportunist (a rogue ability). Although I don't think either are particularly worth altering your build around early acquisition.

[Red Fel]

To me, VMC looks like you just grab abilities you want from other classes without any explanation as to why except because you wanted them. It doesn't make sense from an in-character perspective.

It's up to the player to make it make sense from an in-character perspective. It's like if a Barbarian suddenly takes levels in Frostrager - mechanically, the change in abilities is explained in terms of the PrC. But any in-character explanation has to be explained by the player, even if it's just, "He has literal ice in his veins now."

That's how it works for almost every PrC. Not all of them have RAW RP requirements. Some do; for example, to become a Fist of the Forest, a PC must be approved by the Guardians of the Green - that's a RAW prerequisite. But not all do that. The Sapphire Hierarchs, per description, are devoted to the contemplation of the Sapphire Eidolon, but there is no RAW requirement that a PC have ever set foot in the Temple in order to join the class. Again, no RAW requirement. That burden is therefore on the player. It's more than just, "Oh, I took levels in Sapphire Hierarch." Even if the PC can't get to the Temple, perhaps the PC explains, "I saw visions of a mysterious monolith in my dreams last night. The visions call to me." Bam, PrC, easy.

Same with VMC. If you want your PCs to offer in-character justification, let them. My Sorcerer has Monk VMC because in addition to honing his magical prowess, he believes in training his body with a rigorous physical regimen. My Fighter has Ranger levels because in addition to strengthening his sword arm, she has been strengthening her connection with nature.

My point is, almost any PrC can read as just grabbing abilities "without any explanation as to why except because you wanted them." Unless, of course, explanation is given.

[Mike Miller]

It's up to the player to make it make sense from an in-character perspective. It's like if a Barbarian suddenly takes levels in Frostrager - mechanically, the change in abilities is explained in terms of the PrC. But any in-character explanation has to be explained by the player, even if it's just, "He has literal ice in his veins now."

That's how it works for almost every PrC. Not all of them have RAW RP requirements. Some do; for example, to become a Fist of the Forest, a PC must be approved by the Guardians of the Green - that's a RAW prerequisite. But not all do that. The Sapphire Hierarchs, per description, are devoted to the contemplation of the Sapphire Eidolon, but there is no RAW requirement that a PC have ever set foot in the Temple in order to join the class. Again, no RAW requirement. That burden is therefore on the player. It's more than just, "Oh, I took levels in Sapphire Hierarch." Even if the PC can't get to the Temple, perhaps the PC explains, "I saw visions of a mysterious monolith in my dreams last night. The visions call to me." Bam, PrC, easy.

Same with VMC. If you want your PCs to offer in-character justification, let them. My Sorcerer has Monk VMC because in addition to honing his magical prowess, he believes in training his body with a rigorous physical regimen. My Fighter has Ranger levels because in addition to strengthening his sword arm, she has been strengthening her connection with nature.

My point is, almost any PrC can read as just grabbing abilities "without any explanation as to why except because you wanted them." Unless, of course, explanation is given.

Fair enough, you make some good arguments. I've only just learned of VMC so perhaps I need to see it in action. I'm not sure it accomplishes the same thing as I've set out to do, but it is similar at least.

[Nifft]

It's up to the player to make it make sense from an in-character perspective. It's like if a Barbarian suddenly takes levels in Frostrager - mechanically, the change in abilities is explained in terms of the PrC. But any in-character explanation has to be explained by the player, even if it's just, "He has literal ice in his veins now."

That's how it works for almost every PrC. Not all of them have RAW RP requirements. Some do; for example, to become a Fist of the Forest, a PC must be approved by the Guardians of the Green - that's a RAW prerequisite. But not all do that. The Sapphire Hierarchs, per description, are devoted to the contemplation of the Sapphire Eidolon, but there is no RAW requirement that a PC have ever set foot in the Temple in order to join the class. Again, no RAW requirement. That burden is therefore on the player. It's more than just, "Oh, I took levels in Sapphire Hierarch." Even if the PC can't get to the Temple, perhaps the PC explains, "I saw visions of a mysterious monolith in my dreams last night. The visions call to me." Bam, PrC, easy.

Same with VMC. If you want your PCs to offer in-character justification, let them. My Sorcerer has Monk VMC because in addition to honing his magical prowess, he believes in training his body with a rigorous physical regimen. My Fighter has Ranger levels because in addition to strengthening his sword arm, she has been strengthening her connection with nature.

My point is, almost any PrC can read as just grabbing abilities "without any explanation as to why except because you wanted them." Unless, of course, explanation is given.

To build upon this:

Sometimes I have a character concept which is outside what the game system can provide.

At those times, I will take abilities & benefits from various places to build the character which supports the flavor that I envision, even if it's not what the original writers had envisaged.

IMHO the separation of flavor and crunch can be beneficial to the creation of new flavors.