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View Full Version : Gold costs: My other problem with magic item creation



Thoughtbot360
2007-08-15, 11:21 AM
I've written before about how illogical it is to assume that NPC casters would spend the XP needed to create magic items (heck, just look at how many PC wizards actually take the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat) but now I've recognized another problem.

The experience costs of magic items is insignificant (1/25th of market price) compared to the cost of actual money (1/2 of market price) in making an item. Where does the gold actually go? Money doesn't disappear when you spend it, you give it to someone in exchange for goods and services. So, what goods and services are actually required to say, enchant a sword beyond the cost of the sword itself? The cheapest weapon enhancement is 500 gp + 100 for a masterwork weapon (300/3=100 if you craft it yourself) so somehow in purely magical resources, the cost increases to 500 gp, which I guess includes stuff like rare alchemical components and maybe hiring a squad of NPC casters to do a ritual that you'll have to pay, but the costs of magic weapons inflates quickly after enchantments equivalent to +1. What else can you possibly be using and who walks away with your money?

blue_fenix
2007-08-15, 11:24 AM
The gold evaporates into thin air? The material costs make more sense when crafting, say, a wand or a ring from scratch, but you're right that it doesn't make much sense for enchantments.

internerdj
2007-08-15, 11:25 AM
Pearl divers, dwarven miners, rare flower pickers, the kingdom magic item registry bureaux...

sikyon
2007-08-15, 11:26 AM
Magic Works in mysterious ways. Basically, magic =/= physics. The gold just dissapears when you cast the spell. You're trading your gold to the universe. And yes, the universe cares about your gold because it matters to you.

lord_khaine
2007-08-15, 11:27 AM
its not illogical to assume the npc will craft something, just about all the wizards i have played with have taken some sort of crafting feat, to be able to make items for themself and the party at ½ cost.

as for where the rest of the gold is spend on item creation, then its up to the dm, the DMG just say its spend on magical resources, so it can be anything from rare minerals to strange plants or precious gems.

puppyavenger
2007-08-15, 11:40 AM
In answer to the xp question there is somewhere on the wotc site ( I think) a 2nd level spell called transfer that when you are making a majic item for someone takes the xp from them instead of you as long as there willing.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-08-15, 11:47 AM
How about... Oh, say, 20 of the most perfect emeralds (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/treasure.html#table-gems)? That'll cost you about 100,000 gp, which is the maximum cost of enchanting most non-epic items.

Really, it doesn't have to be a whole crapload of stuff. Just a few extremely rare and valuable items.

rollfrenzy
2007-08-15, 12:03 PM
I always assumed that some agent of WoTC somehow got into the game and ripped off my mage.

"Hello, Delmar. We are from Wizards of the coast, you owe us 500 GP and by the way <thwack!!!> that should make you just the right amount of dumber."

Seriously though. It goes into incense and scrolls and pentagrams and etc. need in the ritual.

Leicontis
2007-08-15, 12:14 PM
I suppose the exact nature of the components is left ambiguous on purpose. This is magic, after all. The components could be anything from precious gems to rare spices, oils, and incense. Look at how esoteric spell components tend to be. There are plenty of expensive random items in the multiverse, aren't there?

As far as where all this money goes, the books probably don't describe the economy that arises from traffic in these materials because they don't expect the PCs to interact directly with it except to purchase crafting supplies. Flower picking is hardly epic hero material...

internerdj
2007-08-15, 12:18 PM
[QUOTE=rollfrenzy;3040255]I always assumed that some agent of WoTC somehow got into the game and ripped off my mage.

"Hello, Delmar. We are from Wizards of the coast, you owe us 500 GP and by the way <thwack!!!> that should make you just the right amount of dumber."
QUOTE]
Proper licensing fees. WOTC Lawyer 5. Thats +1 longbow TM that you are making Mr. Delmar.

horseboy
2007-08-15, 12:22 PM
You know, this all brings up the other big problem in D&D if there's an infinite amount of gold in a D&D world why is it valuable?

sikyon
2007-08-15, 12:26 PM
You know, this all brings up the other big problem in D&D if there's an infinite amount of gold in a D&D world why is it valuable?

Who says there's an infinite amount of gold in circulation?

Telonius
2007-08-15, 12:28 PM
I generally assume that the gold goes to the same place that Walls of Iron come from.

Draz74
2007-08-15, 12:29 PM
The 2E item creation rules had a long, detailed example of what it can be like to create a magic item.

They talk about how this mage, trying to craft a +5 sword, does some research (expensive in and of itself) and learns that the sword he has envisioned needs to be forged from the iron ore found on a certain mountain, and then forged on a certain forge, the finest in the dwarven lands; and etched in distilled black pudding juice; and blessed by a certain priest ... etc.

Now, in 2E, they made characters go through all these steps, because it was an easy way for the DM to come up with lots of adventure hooks. In 3E, they wanted to make it more abstract, so they just sum up all of these requirements by requiring a gp and xp cost.

So, the gold is used to access libraries with tomes about item creation, and used to purchase this super iron ore, and to purchase access to the dwarven forges, and to buy black pudding juice ... etc. And, in addition to the idea that item creation just "really takes something out of you, a piece of your soul that makes it work," the XP cost can also represent the casting of special divination rituals in the research step, and so on. So you're basically just paying for all the adventuring you would have had to do back in 2E.

Can't you still just go and do the adventuring instead of paying the gp and XP costs? Sure. If you actually travel to the iron mountain at the end of the world, and dig up the ore there, and travel to the dwarven lands and earn the right to use their forge, and so on, you will earn (guess what?) treasure and XP for those adventures! Which can, in turn, pay for your expenses! Amazing how the system works that way!

... of course, the funny part is that some of these components and rituals that are supposedly involved in the item creation process shouldn't really be for sale. You should have to earn some of these steps. But 3E decided quests like that were more often distractions rather than fun experiences.

tainsouvra
2007-08-15, 12:35 PM
You know, this all brings up the other big problem in D&D if there's an infinite amount of gold in a D&D world why is it valuable? Why is there an infinite amount of gold in circulation in your campaign? :smallconfused:

Xefas
2007-08-15, 12:36 PM
Who says there's an infinite amount of gold in circulation?

Yeah, the gold in circulation is only, like...what, 1% of the world's gold when you factor in all the treasures horded by dragons in big holes in the ground, sealed away in the ruins of ancient civilizations in big holes in the ground, sunken into the sea during oceanic battles, eaten by various Huge or larger creatures, and, most of all, owned by various Outer Planesmen. I believe Celestia has an entire infinite plane made out of gold. Where'd they get all that gold? Obviously they tasked ancient Lawful Good adventurers with plundering it all from the Prime Material. Not to mention the Hells, where it's still the second most valuable trade good (behind souls).

goat
2007-08-15, 12:48 PM
I think with clerical and other divine magics, the Gods being petitioned for said magic take the gold in tribute and build a nice golden temple.

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 12:54 PM
Yeah, the gold in circulation is only, like...what, 1% of the world's gold when you factor in all the treasures horded by dragons in big holes in the ground, sealed away in the ruins of ancient civilizations in big holes in the ground, sunken into the sea during oceanic battles, eaten by various Huge or larger creatures, and, most of all, owned by various Outer Planesmen. I believe Celestia has an entire infinite plane made out of gold. Where'd they get all that gold? Obviously they tasked ancient Lawful Good adventurers with plundering it all from the Prime Material. Not to mention the Hells, where it's still the second most valuable trade good (behind souls).

Tangential: I once had a cleric of Waukeen (the goddess of Trade and Commerce) who raided dungeons under the rationale that, in addition to clearing out dens of monsters who might pose a threat to trade, he was getting more gold out of hoards and into circulation, where it could do some GOOD.

Dausuul
2007-08-15, 12:57 PM
I've written before about how illogical it is to assume that NPC casters would spend the XP needed to create magic items (heck, just look at how many PC wizards actually take the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat) but now I've recognized another problem.

The experience costs of magic items is insignificant (1/25th of market price) compared to the cost of actual money (1/2 of market price) in making an item. Where does the gold actually go? Money doesn't disappear when you spend it, you give it to someone in exchange for goods and services. So, what goods and services are actually required to say, enchant a sword beyond the cost of the sword itself? The cheapest weapon enhancement is 500 gp + 100 for a masterwork weapon (300/3=100 if you craft it yourself) so somehow in purely magical resources, the cost increases to 500 gp, which I guess includes stuff like rare alchemical components and maybe hiring a squad of NPC casters to do a ritual that you'll have to pay, but the costs of magic weapons inflates quickly after enchantments equivalent to +1. What else can you possibly be using and who walks away with your money?

Eye of salamander and toe of slaad, wool of dire bat and tongue of blink dog, yuan-ti's fork and purple worm's sting, basilisk's leg and owlbear's wing...

Basically, you're paying for a bunch of obscure and exotic components obtained from various sources and prepared in elaborate and time-consuming ways. Since most of these items are quite rare, and many of them can only be gotten by going to dangerous places and doing dangerous things, and the market is both very small and very well-funded, prices tend to be exorbitant. The exact details are hand-waved away for the sake of simplicity.

At least that's how I explain it.

internerdj
2007-08-15, 01:01 PM
All collected by the ninja looting team that follows your party and takes everything from the corpses you might not think of and sells them for profit. Anyone ever have their parties quest for odd things to offset the cost of a magical item, like bring me the spleen of a wereshark and the pinky of a day old vampire?

....
2007-08-15, 01:01 PM
I've written before about how illogical it is to assume that NPC casters would spend the XP needed to create magic items (heck, just look at how many PC wizards actually take the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat) but now I've recognized another problem.

The experience costs of magic items is insignificant (1/25th of market price) compared to the cost of actual money (1/2 of market price) in making an item. Where does the gold actually go? Money doesn't disappear when you spend it, you give it to someone in exchange for goods and services. So, what goods and services are actually required to say, enchant a sword beyond the cost of the sword itself? The cheapest weapon enhancement is 500 gp + 100 for a masterwork weapon (300/3=100 if you craft it yourself) so somehow in purely magical resources, the cost increases to 500 gp, which I guess includes stuff like rare alchemical components and maybe hiring a squad of NPC casters to do a ritual that you'll have to pay, but the costs of magic weapons inflates quickly after enchantments equivalent to +1. What else can you possibly be using and who walks away with your money?

Because people who enchant stuff know that adventurers will shell out lots of cash for a +2 keen vorpal greatsword?

Corolinth
2007-08-15, 01:02 PM
The exp cost is to limit the amount of magic items that enter the world. Yes, it is illogical to assume that NPCs will spend the exp cost, that's why your players can't just go buying scrolls of Wish to boost their stats. That's also why your players can't just crack open the DMG to the back, and start shopping. If you want to personally customize your magic items, rather than use what you find in your adventure, you really need to use the item creation feats and spend the exp.

That's not a very popular view, mind you, because magic items have market prices, and and the DMG gives guidelines for how to sell them to players.

Regardless, the exp cost is there to provide a disincentive to make your own magical items. Reason being, that sort of control over your inventory of magical items does dramatically shift the balance of the game. So, to compensate, you get to be a level or three behind the rest of your companions, depending on how many you make.

The gold piece cost is a generic value given to cover the cost of material components to permanently enchant the item in question. They could have listed what every enchantment required, and given a price list for all of the reagents, but it was much easier to just say that an item costs half it's market price to create and leave it at that.

KoDT69
2007-08-15, 01:21 PM
The Gods need all the tithing gold to buy nice cars and pay for their cellular pendants of communication and whatnot. Pelor has at least 4 Escalades and a Hummer! Plus the Gods have thousands of children to pay child support on... (*glares at St. Cuthbert) :smallbiggrin:

I use very laxed item creation rules in my campaigns much related to the 2nd edition standards. I would rather see a player spend half a million gold and be broke than to see them spend 100,000 gold and lose 20,000xp. XP is worth more than gold IMO. Gold will always be available, but losing XP sucks hard.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-08-15, 02:56 PM
Regardless, the exp cost is there to provide a disincentive to make your own magical items.
Not much of a disincentive. It costs next to nothing compared to the gold costs, unless you are playing a game that goes way over wealth by level guidelines. And if the numbers fall right and you do wind up a level behind your partymates, it's possible (but not guaranteed) you can wind up with a larger grand total of XP due to the "catch up mechanism" in XP distribution. That's not a disincentive at all.

But really, the end impact of XP costs is so small I can't rationalize it as anything other than an "infusing your creation with a portion of your life force" flavor choice.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-15, 03:36 PM
I think there is an option for writing a journal of your adventures where you get like 10% extra XP awards for doing the paperwork. You can use this 'gravy' to fund your item creation.

Time seems to be the component you're missing out on. Beyond simple potions and scrolls, you end up spending weeks or months and sometimes even years to make your items. What are the rest of the group doing in the meanwhile? Other casters could maybe make the small stuff, or even use their spells for special things. Fighters/rangers can train animals in that time, nice to have that pet dog that can give you a flanking bonus or aid another. Although being called skill monkeys, I'm not sure what skills a rogue has to help outside of an adventure.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-15, 03:46 PM
The experience costs of magic items is insignificant (1/25th of market price) compared to the cost of actual money (1/2 of market price) in making an item. Where does the gold actually go? Unspecified in RAW, DM flavor choice.

Maybe the gold is literally burned to provide magical energy to infuse the item and trace Paths of Power.

Maybe it's used to purchase exotic components.

Maybe it's used to hire lower-level adventurers to fetch reagents from awkward places.

Maybe it's an offering to the God of Swords.

A feat, some time, and a little XP are the cost of customizing your gear (without additional non-core feats, you can't make a profit with the standard "sell for half market" and the half-price you get from magic item creation... unless you're making things that include extra XP costs, such as a Wand of Lesser Planar Ally or a Scroll of Wish).

Subotei
2007-08-15, 04:25 PM
20% goes to the government as Magic Item Tax. I hope you all fill in your tax returns after each new adventure....

horseboy
2007-08-15, 05:45 PM
I think there is an option for writing a journal of your adventures where you get like 10% extra XP awards for doing the paperwork. You can use this 'gravy' to fund your item creation.


You're thinking about Earth Dawn again. :smallwink:

But no, back in the early 90's there was an article in Dragon about the perils of "letting" your players buy magical items. One of the things they brought up was that a flame tongue would cost half the gold on planet Earth. With some of the people saying that it should just "poof" I had to ask where all the gold is coming from.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-15, 05:54 PM
You're thinking about Earth Dawn again. :smallwink:

But no, back in the early 90's there was an article in Dragon about the perils of "letting" your players buy magical items. One of the things they brought up was that a flame tongue would cost half the gold on planet Earth. With some of the people saying that it should just "poof" I had to ask where all the gold is coming from.The occasional Wiz-17 who casts Genesis, then harvests the gold from a custom demiplane (Environment: Solid gold, with a 5-foot radius "hole" in the middle filled with air) and retires.

Efreeti bullying fire memphits into Wishing the Efreeti had another 25,000 gold pieces (with a wish supplied by the Efreeti).

Sorcerers or Wizards Planar Binding Efreeti and forcing Wishes out of them.

There's lots of ways to create gold out of thin air, although most require 9th level spell effects.

Jasdoif
2007-08-15, 06:18 PM
The occasional Wiz-17 who casts Genesis, then harvests the gold from a custom demiplane (Environment: Solid gold, with a 5-foot radius "hole" in the middle filled with air) and retires.

Efreeti bullying fire memphits into Wishing the Efreeti had another 25,000 gold pieces (with a wish supplied by the Efreeti).

Sorcerers or Wizards Planar Binding Efreeti and forcing Wishes out of them.

There's lots of ways to create gold out of thin air, although most require 9th level spell effects.And don't forget, true creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/trueCreation.htm)! Transforms XP into gold, directly. Now find a single creature in the multiverse that has it as a spell-like ability, and it thus has no XP component. Transform nothingness into gold, directly!

Oh, and look: it's a domain spell. Any deity with the domain...can use it as a spell-like ability.

And now we know where everything in the multiverse comes from.

goat
2007-08-15, 06:36 PM
1/5 of the total value in gold! Pay 100 gold, create 500! Pay 500 gold, create 2500! Pay 2500 gold, create 12500! Pay... etc etc etc.

Now imagine you're starting from the spare-change of a level 17 psion...

Tokiko Mima
2007-08-15, 06:39 PM
And don't forget, true creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/trueCreation.htm)! Transforms XP into gold, directly. Now find a single creature in the multiverse that has it as a spell-like ability, and it thus has no XP component. Transform nothingness into gold, directly!

Oh, and look: it's a domain spell. Any deity with the domain...can use it as a spell-like ability.

And now we know where everything in the multiverse comes from.

The World was created by deities involved in infinite wealth cheese?!?!?! :smalleek:

horseboy
2007-08-15, 07:07 PM
The World was created by deities involved in infinite wealth cheese?!?!?! :smalleek:

Meh, As above, so below.

No wonder this game is so broke-%##

Arbitrarity
2007-08-15, 07:36 PM
The world was created by a creature with time travelling abilities.


:smalleek:

Citizen Joe
2007-08-15, 07:38 PM
Creation is a hard domain to find. I think Garl Glittergold and Moradin grant it. So here's the cheesy technique:

Use Summon monster 8 to get a CR 8-9 creature. Attack it yourself and defeat it for experience. If you're in bad shape, you can dismiss it... try again when you recover. Use the experience gained (375 to 563) with true creation to make money.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-08-15, 07:42 PM
But no, back in the early 90's there was an article in Dragon about the perils of "letting" your players buy magical items. One of the things they brought up was that a flame tongue would cost half the gold on planet Earth. With some of the people saying that it should just "poof" I had to ask where all the gold is coming from.
And you're thinking Second Edition. Clearly, the theory of campaign world economics has changed.

And it didn't even take until 3rd edition. The 2e Magic Item Compendium listed market prices for the items therein, though it was supposedly just as a power level reference and not a buying/selling guide.