A word about perception, again

[Dmdork]

So, blinded means you AUTOMATICALLY FAIL CHECKS THAT RELY ON SIGHT. I think invisible stuff and heavily obscured stuff is basically the same thing in this given context. Anyway, in regard to sight, a wisdom perception check is not beholden to one sense. It's sight, smell, feel, hearing, etc. I'm trying to think of a perception check that relies on sight: "I look to see if the Orc is holding the key in his cupped hand". Clearly only sight could be used on that one. Otherwise that comment about sight doesn't apply, as you can use all of your other senses to locate enemies, etc. Am I interpreting this right?

[Arcangel4774]

If that key took a trip through I digestive track it may have a smell...

[Dmdork]

So, if what I've said is true, what happens in this example:

1. It's dark. a dragon is stealthing
2. Some in the party have dark vision 60, some do not.
3. Dragon is hiding in a cave 50' up on the ceiling, so some can
see it although lightly obscured, and others can't at all.

So in this case, do we use everyone's passives at disadvantage (-5)? I would say yes, those who make it and can see a little, know exactly what it is, those who make it and can't see, know it's there, but dont know exactly what it is......in any event, no one is surprised, provided they make their passives.....yes?

[Tanarii]

My view, for most creatures, assuming they have no realistic chance of smelling:

If you can't see the creature, the sight component of perception checks is irrelevant. If you can hear, no penalty to the check.

If you can't hear them (noisy foundry?), the hearing component is irrelevant. If you can see them clearly ... well, no way to Hide technically. But if somehow they were hiding anyway, no penalty to the check.

If it's hard to see them (dim light for example) AND it's hard to hear them (noisy tavern?), disadvantage. Likewise if you can't see them at all and it's hard to hear them, or you can't hear them at all and it's hard to see them.

Theres some room for variation and (of course) DM judgement. An invisible creature walking around a room full of sawdust or chalk would probably mean a check even if you cannot hear them due to ambient noise, because even though you can't see them either, you can fairly easily see signs of them. In that case I'd definitely apply disadvantage if it was also dim light.

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On your example, the first question is can they hear the dragon clearly? Assuming no ambient noise, probably yes. So no penalty to passive perception.

The ones with darkvision can see the Dragon as if Dim Light, so the question becomes one for the DM: can they see it clearly? If not, stealth check. If so, no check. (Personally if it was just hanging there otherwise in the open, no stalactites or anything, I probably would rule they can see it clearly. Assuming they look up.)

If this is the start of combat, anyone who the dragon's stealth check beats passive perception with is surprised, anyone that doesn't is not surprised. The only question (for the DM) is if the Dragon can hide at all vs those with Darkvision.

[Dmdork]

On your example, the first question is can they hear the dragon clearly? Assuming no ambient noise, probably yes. So no penalty to passive perception.



How can there be no penalty to passive, when it clearly states in the PHB that lightly obscured is a disadvantage on perception checks?

[Deleted]

How can there be no penalty to passive, when it clearly states in the PHB that lightly obscured is a disadvantage on perception checks?

Sight and sound are two distinctly different things.

If I shut my eyes, my ears don't close up too.

[Easy_Lee]

How can there be no penalty to passive, when it clearly states in the PHB that lightly obscured is a disadvantage on perception checks?

That's a good point. Based purely on the obscurity rules, invisibility ought result in disadvantage on perception checks to detect the target.

[Chugger]

I see vastly different approaches to this from various DMs.

Here's a little story about perception that might help us. Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson were out in the wilds on a difficult case, camping out, when Sherlock woke Watson. "Watson," Sherlock said tersely, "look up and tell me what you deduce."

"Well, Holmes," Watson said, ruffled at having been jerked out of a deep sleep, "I see countless millions upon millions of stars. From this I deduce that the universe is extremely large and our place in it very small. Ah, I just saw a shooting star, meaning the Perseid meteor shower is possibly commencing. I see the moon and am guessing by its position that its about three o'clock in the morning - meaning I should be hitting you for being an ass waking me up at this hour to pester me with questions. Am I at all close, Holmes?"

"No, you idiot," Holmes grunted. "It means someone has stolen our tent!"

[Dmdork]

Cute, but I don't see how it helps. Also, I agree that sight and sound are different, but I'm talking about the book rules and how to play this out. Most of the comments in this thread raise more questions than they answer. Its ok, maybe I should just make a judgment call. Sometimes it's good to just bounce this stuff around and see what everyone else does.....

[imanidiot]

Cute, but I don't see how it helps. Also, I agree that sight and sound are different, but I'm talking about the book rules and how to play this out. Most of the comments in this thread raise more questions than they answer. Its ok, maybe I should just make a judgment call. Sometimes it's good to just bounce this stuff around and see what everyone else does.....

The rules in the book are intentionally left vague. This is so the DM can customize them through ajudication depending on how important and how powerful he wants stealth to be in his game. You absolutely should make a judgement call, we can't tell you how important or powerful stealth should be in your game.

[Easy_Lee]

The rules in the book are intentionally left vague. This is so the DM can customize them through ajudication depending on how important and how powerful he wants stealth to be in his game. You absolutely should make a judgement call, we can't tell you how important or powerful stealth should be in your game.

As usual, this is good for DMs but not good for players. Players have no way to guess how good stealth will be without interrogating their DM. Yes, you can figure it out in play, but by then you may be stuck with a character who doesn't perform anything like you imagined, purely because of how the DM rules. You can change characters...unless your DM doesn't allow it.

[Deleted]

As usual, this is good for DMs but not good for players. Players have no way to guess how good stealth will be without interrogating their DM. Yes, you can figure it out in play, but by then you may be stuck with a character who doesn't perform anything like you imagined, purely because of how the DM rules. You can change characters...unless your DM doesn't allow it.

Welcome to 5e.

The "rules heavy trying to be rules light" game.

[Tanarii]

Sight and sound are two distinctly different things.

If I shut my eyes, my ears don't close up too.

Exactly. Basically, you use the best of all senses available at any time. (For humanoids, smell is usually impossible or very hard, so it rarely comes into play. But animals it matters, they often get advantage.)

Automatic success = at least one sense will automatically detect them. The others don't matter.

advantage = at least sense will get advantage. None can be automatic success.

Normal = at least one sense is normal. None can be automatic success or advantage.

Disadvantage = at least once sense is at disadvantage. None can be automatic success, advantage, or normal.

Automatic failure = all senses automatically fail.

Edit: it is important to note, which sense is involved still matters. Because the outcomes and consequences, or what success looks like, is potentially different depending on if you see something, hear it, smell it. I mean, you detect something on a success. But exactly how/what is detected may change the way the player/PC responds to the situation.

[greenstone]

I'm trying to think of a perception check that relies on sight:

Some examples, off the top of my head:

A shadowy figure is skulking around several hundred feet from you.

Some of the flagstones ahead of you are raised slightly, possibly indicating a trap.

The handwriting for the last paragraph in the will is different to that of the rest of the document.

One of the runes carved on the wall is painted a slightly different colour to the rest.

[Psikerlord]

So, if what I've said is true, what happens in this example:

1. It's dark. a dragon is stealthing
2. Some in the party have dark vision 60, some do not.
3. Dragon is hiding in a cave 50' up on the ceiling, so some can
see it although lightly obscured, and others can't at all.

So in this case, do we use everyone's passives at disadvantage (-5)? I would say yes, those who make it and can see a little, know exactly what it is, those who make it and can't see, know it's there, but dont know exactly what it is......in any event, no one is surprised, provided they make their passives.....yes?

Suggested solutions:

1. dragons dont stealth. they smash!
2. but lets say this one is sneaky. Delete all darkvision from your game for PCs - makes things too easy/less atmospheric.
3. OK now armed with torches, we need to determine if the PCs can see or hear the sneaky dragon up on the ceiling. Delete passive perception. It sucks and breaks stuff and doesnt actually help at all.
4. Instead go back to basics - dragon makes a stealth check. PCs make perception checks. Tada done. Anyone who succeeds is not surprised in the ambush that follows.

[BeefGood]

So, blinded means you AUTOMATICALLY FAIL CHECKS THAT RELY ON SIGHT.
This isn't quite right. Blinded means that you fail any ability check that requires sight. On the other hand, lightly obscured gives disadvantage on Wis(Perception) checks that rely on sight. Emphasis mine in both cases.
I'd be interested to hear from anyone who makes a distinction between "requires" and "rely on." What are some situations that fall into each category? And also, does the Blind condition have any effect on situations that merely rely on sight, rather than requiring sight?

[Slipperychicken]

So, if what I've said is true, what happens in this example:

1. It's dark. a dragon is stealthing
2. Some in the party have dark vision 60, some do not.
3. Dragon is hiding in a cave 50' up on the ceiling, so some can
see it although lightly obscured, and others can't at all.

So in this case, do we use everyone's passives at disadvantage (-5)? I would say yes, those who make it and can see a little, know exactly what it is, those who make it and can't see, know it's there, but dont know exactly what it is......in any event, no one is surprised, provided they make their passives.....yes?

The human smells its distinctive fatal breaths wafting down from the ceiling, feels the barely-perceptible wind from its wings and tail, feels the warmth of the dragon's body (as it has been waiting in the chamber some time), hears the muted breath of a gigantic monster, hears talons lightly scraping the stone (it is clinging to the ceiling), sees tiny flashes of torchlight reflecting from the ceiling (against the dragon's eyes and brilliant well-polished hide), notes giant four-toed claw prints on the ground and a remarkably clear area of ground (where the dragon launched off to hide on the ceiling), and notices dustlike bits falling from the ceiling as if scraped off.