Paladins and breaking oaths

[chainer1216]

The short long and short of my situation is this, i am a Oath of The Crown paladin, his liege ordered him to protect a monk on an journey, specifically until the monk returns to his monastery and then to go back to the emperor.

The problem is that while we were journeying the monastery was attacked and the surviving monks all just so happened to move to the island continent we are on currently and since the monk found his maguffin he wants to return it right away.

So im stuck choosing between losing my character by having him return home or break my Oath by continuing with my party.

Obviously im keeping my character but i and my DM are unsure as to how to handle this, im not all of a sudden a supervillain so Oathbreaker doesn't make sense but my paladin knows hes choosing his friends over his sworn oath.

What do?

[Coffee_Dragon]

Unless there's some logical necessity why returning should mean leaving the game, and perhaps even then, then assuming the DM also wants the character to remain in the campaign you should be able to come up with some reason it doesn't happen. It's not clear how the rest of the party relate to the monk and/or the ongoing mission. If their work is also done, maybe everyone goes back and stuff continues to happen in emperorland? Or if they absolutely would not go there, maybe the character can receive word another job has been assigned to them, or to await instructions on the continent where they are?

[lebefrei]

Why did this quest end so early in your career, why have such a sort sighted quest that relies upon you, and not your party, return? That was obviously a mistake for you and/or your DM, to now cause this confusion. The king send a message, however people send them in your world, congratulating you for aiding the monks and bids you continue on with XYZ until such a time as he requests you do something else. Problem solved. Unless your DM is trying to mess with you, and then it's more of a problem between you.

[DarkKnightJin]

If the ruler felt strongly enough to send one of his Paladins with the monk for protection, I could see a follow-up order of looking into who and why the monastery was attacked, and probably find a way to make them pay for their crime(s).

Ta-daah. New plothook. And I'm fairly certain most of the rest of the party would be on board with finding out who sacked their friend's home.
And getting to MDK the sumbish responsible. Lawfully, of course.

[Unoriginal]

You could send a letter to the Emperor saying that the monk still needs your protection, and asking for new instructions.

[paddyfool]

How explicit was your oath on the subject of the immediacy of return? A dutiful servant of your monarch should report in on the success of the escort mission, assuming some means of long-distance communication is available, and a pro-active one may also be able to suggest ways in which he can continue to serve the best interests of his liege Lord in his current location (including ideas already suggested), rather than just sit on a boat home to where he may not be needed.

Or if he does end up having to travel home, maybe have a chat with your DM about rolling up a temporary character until he gets back.

[Unoriginal]

Also should point out that not obeying to orders due to a change in the situation once isn't going to break your Oath.

A king might tell an OotC Paladin "stay in this building and guard this door until next week", but if the building burns to the ground and the Paladin escapes the inferno, they're not breaking their Oath.

[DarkKnightJin]

Also should point out that not obeying to orders due to a change in the situation once isn't going to break your Oath.

A king might tell an OotC Paladin "stay in this building and guard this door until next week", but if the building burns to the ground and the Paladin escapes the inferno, they're not breaking their Oath.

They might if the king was hoping for a Lawful Stupid Pally, who would follow the order to the letter, instead of the spirit.

If your boss sits you down and says you can't move, then gets pissy when you decide "I ain't dying for some bloody door, no matter how fancy".. You might have a bad boss. That may or may not have tried to kill you through arson.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

His Majesty made you a major because he believed you would know when not to obey his orders.

The Emperor clearly has an interest in protecting these monks, so given the change in situation you have good reason to believe that continuing to assist them is in keeping with the spirit of your instructions, at the very least until their monastery is reclaimed.

[GlenSmash!]

Do you and your DM feel like the Emperor would be pleased if you fulfilled the strict letter of his instruction, without adapting to the situation.

If I were roleplaying that Emperor and you left the monks in danger and came back "because that's exactly what you said" I'd fire you. And maybe lock you up.

[Pex]

Return home. The only reason you are in this situation is because of DM fiat. If the DM makes it so that the PC is now out of the game talk to him about it explaining it's his doing. If the DM blames you and refuses to budge, determine whether it's because the DM doesn't want you in the game or the character in the game. If the latter determine for yourself whether you still want to be in the game.

Less cynically, still return home. The DM should recognize you're fulfilling your Oath and orders, and he placed you in this situation by fiat. He will fiat away out of it. Perhaps the monks at the monastery have sent word to your Emperor of their situation. The Emperor will send word to you you're absolved of having to return immediately and now that your mission is done early would like to take advantage of you being on this continent even if it's just an exploratory mission.

[KorvinStarmast]

You could send a letter to the Emperor saying that the monk still needs your protection, and asking for new instructions. Or have a spell caster use a "sending" spell. (Faster, eh?) :smallbiggrin:

You send a short message of twenty-*‐‑five words or less to a creature with which you are familiar. The creature hears the message in its mind, recognizes you as the sender if it knows you, and can answer in a like manner immediately

Return home. {snip rest of nice post}
Well said.

[chainer1216]

Whoa guys, my DM and i are nowhere near as adversarial as you seem to think, i tied my backstory to a fellow player, DM came up with a story hook that involved Monks backstory but inadvertently caused a conflict with mine, which exists as it does to justify why an oath of the Crown paladin is so far away from the crown.

At this point we are just mostly confused on what this editions rules for "falling" are because whats in the books is extremely vague, and how to make the most out of this roleplaying experience.

[DarkKnightJin]

Whoa guys, my DM and i are nowhere near as adversarial as you seem to think, i tied my backstory to a fellow player, DM came up with a story hook that involved Monks backstory but inadvertently caused a conflict with mine, which exists as it does to justify why an oath of the Crown paladin is so far away from the crown.

At this point we are just mostly confused on what this editions rules for "falling" are because whats in the books is extremely vague, and how to make the most out of this roleplaying experience.

Continued protection of the Monk PC seems pretty fitting. If a message ever comes to your Paladin on why he didn't return after his mission was 'completed', he can respond that he felt his duty to protect his charge wasn't over simply because they were reunited with the members of their monastery.

As I suggested earlier, finding out the who and why of the assault seems like a good hook for the DM to go with, and keep the party together. I'm assuming the Monk player isn't going to just go "Welp, that was fun. I'm rolling a new character now."

And considering 'falling'.. I'm fairly sure not returning home immediately after a mission was completed won't break your Oath. After all, a friend/ally of your Emperor has been attacked. It would be worse if your Paladin was like: "Huh, weird.. Well, you're home safe now. Seeya!" And peaces out without at least trying to find out if whoever assaulted the monastery wasn't sending a message and/or is a threat to your Emperor, too.

[Malifice]

Return home. The only reason you are in this situation is because of DM fiat. If the DM makes it so that the PC is now out of the game talk to him about it explaining it's his doing. If the DM blames you and refuses to budge, determine whether it's because the DM doesn't want you in the game or the character in the game. If the latter determine for yourself whether you still want to be in the game.


Christ you must have had terrible experiences with DM's in the past.

[Unoriginal]

Or have a spell caster use a "sending" spell. (Faster, eh?) :smallbiggrin:

Maybe, but with a letter the Paladin can keep adventuring while waiting for the answer.



Whoa guys, my DM and i are nowhere near as adversarial as you seem to think, i tied my backstory to a fellow player, DM came up with a story hook that involved Monks backstory but inadvertently caused a conflict with mine, which exists as it does to justify why an oath of the Crown paladin is so far away from the crown.

At this point we are just mostly confused on what this editions rules for "falling" are because whats in the books is extremely vague, and how to make the most out of this roleplaying experience.

There is no real "falling" rules in 5e. The days of "your Paladin falls so fast the class should be called Niagara" are over.

In 5e, the only ways a Paladin would lose their Oath would be if:

1) They knowingly and deliberatily break their Oath and
2) Never seek atonement for breaking their Oath


Your Paladin is not breaking any Oath by staying with the Monk. And even if he did, he'd need to atone for his transgression later, but he still wouldn't "fall".

[Anymage]

The strict paladin code from 3e and earlier pretty much only served to create falltraps and give support to disruptive players. A crown paladin who went full-on regicide would go oathbreaker (more likely, lose all power until they found an alternate source, which basically means whatever powers oathbreakers). Lesser breaches of the oath could have consequences ranging from minor power loss, to nonmechanical visions, to simply having a guilty conscience. You have to work really hard to fall here.

In this specific case, I agree with everybody else. If the spirit of the task would best be served by bending the letter, you can use your own judgment until you can check in with your boss. If this is something you think your boss would really want to keep tabs on, you can use your own judgment until you're able to touch base and compare notes. And since going along is how you play nice with the other players, any halfway competent DM will give you some way of communicating and getting leave to follow up on these new leads.

[RickAllison]

The strict paladin code from 3e and earlier pretty much only served to create falltraps and give support to disruptive players. A crown paladin who went full-on regicide would go oathbreaker (more likely, lose all power until they found an alternate source, which basically means whatever powers oathbreakers). Lesser breaches of the oath could have consequences ranging from minor power loss, to nonmechanical visions, to simply having a guilty conscience. You have to work really hard to fall here.

Even then, you would only go Oathbreaker if you commit regicide for something like personal power. Becoming an Oathbreaker requires malicious breaking of the oath while wholly giving over to Evil. Someone who kills their corrupt king would find themselves oath-less and probably having a personal crisis, but they haven't become the subclass. That subclass is basically an oath of its own, just with tenets of selfishness and personal power.

Honestly, if you don't lose faith then you can even "break" the oath by submitting to an alternate power. Like a paladin serving Prince John joining Robin Hood because he considers this to be fulfilling his oath to the crown. Or like a knight who refused to follow Cersei following her murdering the queen and driving King Tommen to suicide.

[Pex]

Christ you must have had terrible experiences with DM's in the past.

The horrors of my 2E days. I've literally lost friendships.

[GlenSmash!]

At this point we are just mostly confused on what this editions rules for "falling" are because whats in the books is extremely vague


There are no "Gotcha you're paladin fell!" rules in this edition. What you have is some text meant to guide players and DMs.

To me falling is something that should be handled entirely on a case by cases basis. If you think it will make the adventure more exiting and memorable then talk to your DM about falling. If you don't, then don't.

[Honest Tiefling]

If the King feels so strongly about these monks that he'd send out one of his best knights to protect one...How would he feel about that knight taking orders from the monastery? Maybe the leader of the monks feels that there is a mole, and since the PC monk probably isn't the mole, figuring out the reason the monastery was attacked would be quite important to the monks. Also, if the monk NPC himself released the PC paladin of his oath because he was being escorted by other NPCs, I think it would get you off the hook and give you a reason to stick with the PC monk.