Wizard - Bard class selection debate

[saberrider]

Hello there, I have been playing d&d for almost 20 years, mostly 3.0 and 3.5, a little AD&D, pathfinder and 4e. Now I am about to give 5e a go and I feel overwhelmed by the possibilities of the reworked classes. I have played almost everything at least once with wizard being my all time favorite and most familiar class and here's the thing: In the party I'm about to join there's already a Barbarian, a Ranger and a Psionic (or Mystic as they call him these days) and the general opinion is that they really need a spellcaster, preferably a Wizard to cover for the lack of controlling capabilities of this party, plus the much needed utility. At the same time after talking to the DM, I found out that a social/face guy is also needed (plus I really want to be that guy), so the way I see it that leaves me with options.
I can either roll a Bard, the obvious choice, since he fits that role perfectly (jack of all trades indeed) with his expertise as a nice bonus, or build a high Cha Wizard (portent makes diviner a no-brainer) with social skills. The tricky part is that a Bard's spell arsenal, concerning spells known, is limited as you all know compared to a Wizard's, so I won't have the option to choose according to each situation.
So TLDR, what are your opinions on this matter, is a Bard viable as the prime spellcaster? Would a Wizard be an acceptable face?

[nickl_2000]

The Bard is an amazing spellcaster, their spell choice lend well to healing, buffs, and battlefield control naturally. The very nice thing about Bards as a spellcaster through (especially Lore Bard) is the Magic Secrets ability. At various level you get to literally steal spells from another class and cast it with Charisma. Need blasting ability? Grab Fireball.

[Ninja_Prawn]

The bard is a good solution here, but I've been in this position myself (joining a group mid-adventure after they lost their face and 'brain') and I can confirm that diviner (https://www.myth-weavers.com//sheet.html#id=691366) works perfectly well too. It's nice to be able to take all the random niche spells I want and not feel bad about it!

Well, maybe "perfectly well" is going too far... she's one death save away from the afterlife right now, but that's mainly because I dumped Dex in favour of Wis. :smallsigh:

[Aett_Thorn]

Go Lore Bard, and then if you need additional versatility, take Ritual Caster (Wizard) to help round out your abilities.

[Sigreid]

I do mostly wizards myself, and am recently trying out a bard. The bard is cool, but I have to keep reminding myself that he is not a wizard, has different strengths, and trying to play him as a wizard stand in is a mistake. Based on what you have said, for your first go at 5e I would suggest you do the wizard thing.

[Aymon]

I'm currently playing a lore bard 4/ wizard 1 multiclass. A bit of delay in the bard features, but in general a blast.

I also took v human with the healer feat at level one... I'm everything the party needs....

[Sigreid]

I'm currently playing a lore bard 4/ wizard 1 multiclass. A bit of delay in the bard features, but in general a blast.

I also took v human with the healer feat at level one... I'm everything the party needs....

I took vh with the spell sniper feat for EB. That gives me reliable round to round damage that the bard kind of lacks out of the box.

[Specter]

As much as Wizard is capable, if you pick it in this group you'll be short on the healing, skill and face departments. So Bard seems like a natural fit here. With Magical Secrets at levels 6, 10, 14 and 18, you can pick any Wizard spells you might need/want.

[Easy_Lee]

I say wizard. Being the party face is nice and all that, but having a dedicated face can sideline the others when it comes to important discussions. And how many campaigns rely upon high charisma checks?

You'll get more mileage out of something you enjoy. There's nothing wrong with a sociable wizard.

[Aett_Thorn]

Of course, there's always the Sorcerer as well, which can be both the blasty caster and the party face at the same time as well. But it's generally not as newbie-friendly as some of the other classes.

[saberrider]

Thanks for the replies, so far I've narrowed it down to this:

Option1:
Half-Elf Bard (9)
STR 8, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 18
College of Lore
Background : Charlatan
Feats: Actor
Skills: Deception, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand
Expertise: Deception, Insight
Spells:
0 - Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Poison Spray(High Elf extra cantrip), Prestidigitation
1 - Charm Person, Detect Magic
2 - Invisibility, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion or Zone of Truth
3 - Fear, Major Image, Tongues
4 - Dimension Door or Greater Invisibility, Polymorph
5 - Mass Cure Wounds, Mislead
Secrets: Counterspell, Fireball

Option 2:
Variant Human Wizard (9)
STR 8, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 18, WIS 12, CHA 16
School of Divination
Background: Noble
Feats: Prodigy
Skills: Arcana, Deception, History, Insight, Investigation, Persuasion
Spells:
0 - Fire Bolt, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation
1 - Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Identify, Detect Magic, Fog Cloud, Mage Armor, Sleep, T. Hideous Laughter
2 - Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, Levitate, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Force/Suggestion
3 - Counterspell, Fireball, Fly, Leo's Tiny Hut
4 - Arcane Eye, Banishment, Polymorph
5 - Rary's Telepathic Bond, Wall of Force

[Trampaige]

0 - Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Poison Spray(High Elf extra cantrip), Prestidigitation


Just remember that the racial cantrip is based off INT, not charisma. You might be better off taking another utility cantrip. Alternately, poison spray is pretty lacklustre... highly resisted, close range. Many turns you won't be able to use it at all due to the range.

[saberrider]

Just remember that the racial cantrip is based off INT, not charisma. You might be better off taking another utility cantrip. Alternately, poison spray is pretty lacklustre... highly resisted, close range. Many turns you won't be able to use it at all due to the range.

You're right, I haven't really thought about it so it could be replaced by Dancing Lights for utility purposes or something else.

[Aett_Thorn]

Well, you will probably want some sort of damaging cantrip to be able to use. Vicious Mockery isn't the most damage out there by a long shot, but it will still likely serve you well.

[Protato]

Well, you will probably want some sort of damaging cantrip to be able to use. Vicious Mockery isn't the most damage out there by a long shot, but it will still likely serve you well.

I would take Fire Bolt or Ray of Frost in place of Poison Spray for the High Elf Cantrip. Fire and cold damage types aren't the best but they work, and with those two, you can choose a bit more damage or a bit less and a debuff.

[holywhippet]

I am playing a bard in a campaign at the moment. The one caveat I can say about it is that you never seem to know enough spells to cover all circumstances. Good class otherwise, being good at talking doesn't seem to help me much since the other characters are more or less sociopaths. Like when I was trying to diplomatically convince a child to come clean about stealing from one of our party members when our barbarian just decided to threaten the kid instead with physical harm instead.

[Spacehamster]

Would say go lore bard half elf, lore bard is the most versatile spellcaster in the game plus an amazing skill monkey to boot, at level 3 you will have 10 skills known plus expertise. :)

Could also go 19 wizard 1 rogue, then you can put expertise in deception and persuasion and be a decent face with a modest CHA(12 perhaps).

[sithlordnergal]

So, I have played both a Lore Bard and a Wizard. From what I have seen, Lore Bard would fit everything your party needs, from support and healing spells to a party face and incredible enemy debuffer. Heck, the Lore Bard is just about as good of a skill monkey as the rogue, and they have full casting to boot. So if your rogue is busy, you can generally pick up the slack they left behind. The only two major weaknesses of the Bard are damaging spells and an over-reliance on saving throws. The Bard spell list is severely lacking in the damage department. Your best damage cantrip is Cutting Words, which does a d4, and can be completely stopped by a saving throw. It odes have an awesome debuff though, making it extremely powerful, but again. You won't be doing any damage with it. The rest of the Bard's damaging spells are just as lack luster, and require a saving throw. So if you run into something with good saves, you're gonna have trouble.

As for Wizards, they're great at what they do. And what they do is cast spells. But really, that's all they're good for. Diviner can provide some nice instant saves or fails when need be twice a day, and Abjuration gets better defense, but other then that you're just slinging spells. Now don't get me wrong, that is great. A wizard is likely going to have far more available spells then any other class, and with Ritual Casting they can make use of most of them. So unlike the Bard, you won't have to worry as much about choosing your spells. Grab a couple that could be nice in combat, and make the rest rituals. But again, that's all you'll do besides the odd Knowledge check.

Personally, I'd go for Lore Bard, and add a single level of Sorcerer into the mix. The two classes work amazingly well together. You gain attack cantrips, shield, a decently damaging first level spell like Magic Missile or Chromatic Orb, and the first level Sorcerer Sub-Class abilities are great. Now you can do some blasting, have a decent defense, provide the utility a Lore Bard offers with their normal spells, and, depending on your Sorcerer Origin, you have extra hp and permanent mage armor or instant advantage on any one thing and a cool/fun Wild Magic that helps more then it hurts. Sure, you'll never be a top tier blaster like an Evoker Wizard, or a Sorcerer using the right Metamagics, but you'll at least have options for when you're facing something that always makes it's saving throw.

That said, if you did go the Lore Bard/Sorcerer route, I really do suggest snagging Firebolt, Chill Touch, and either Magic Missile or Chromatic Orb for your Sorcerer spells. Firebolt is basically a fire version of Eldtricth Blast, just without the invocations to make it stronger, and Chill touch makes an awesome backup for beings immune to fire. A d8 damage is nothing to scoff at. Plus if you face an undead, Chill Touch becomes a superior Cutting Words because it prevents healing, and it forces the vampire to have disadvantage on all attack rolls against you. Suck it Vamp!! Not only can you not heal when you grapple and eat the Monk, but you can't touch me cause my AC is to high and you have disadvantage!! >=D

[Jethro]

Thanks for the replies, so far I've narrowed it down to this:

Option1:
Half-Elf Bard (9)
STR 8, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 18
College of Lore
Background : Charlatan
Feats: Actor
Skills: Deception, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand
Expertise: Deception, Insight
Spells:
0 - Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Poison Spray(High Elf extra cantrip), Prestidigitation
1 - Charm Person, Detect Magic
2 - Invisibility, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion or Zone of Truth
3 - Fear, Major Image, Tongues
4 - Dimension Door or Greater Invisibility, Polymorph
5 - Mass Cure Wounds, Mislead
Secrets: Counterspell, Fireball


I'd suggest taking Healing Word...always useful with that level 1 spell slot, especially as a bonus action.

There's tons of threads with spell suggestions for the magical secret spells. Counterspell is almost mandatory, especially since jack of all trades works with it.

Another thing when considering your spells, look at concentration. A lot of those spells are concentration based, but you can only concentrate on one at a time. Not that any are bad choices, but some others to consider: Disguise Self (especially with the Actor feat this seems like a no brainer and can be cast as a ritual), Heat Metal, Hold Person (both concentration, but combat effective), Shatter (a damage spell of level 2, saves concentration for the higher slots). Not sure how useful both Invisibility and Greater Invisibility are.

Bard is super fun. Oh and take Vicious Mockery. :smallsmile:

[Citan]

Hello there, I have been playing d&d for almost 20 years, mostly 3.0 and 3.5, a little AD&D, pathfinder and 4e. Now I am about to give 5e a go and I feel overwhelmed by the possibilities of the reworked classes. I have played almost everything at least once with wizard being my all time favorite and most familiar class and here's the thing: In the party I'm about to join there's already a Barbarian, a Ranger and a Psionic (or Mystic as they call him these days) and the general opinion is that they really need a spellcaster, preferably a Wizard to cover for the lack of controlling capabilities of this party, plus the much needed utility. At the same time after talking to the DM, I found out that a social/face guy is also needed (plus I really want to be that guy), so the way I see it that leaves me with options.
I can either roll a Bard, the obvious choice, since he fits that role perfectly (jack of all trades indeed) with his expertise as a nice bonus, or build a high Cha Wizard (portent makes diviner a no-brainer) with social skills. The tricky part is that a Bard's spell arsenal, concerning spells known, is limited as you all know compared to a Wizard's, so I won't have the option to choose according to each situation.
So TLDR, what are your opinions on this matter, is a Bard viable as the prime spellcaster? Would a Wizard be an acceptable face?


Go Lore Bard, and then if you need additional versatility, take Ritual Caster (Wizard) to help round out your abilities.
Hi!

Coming in a little late, but in case you are still open to suggestions...
If you really want to be the skill-monkey and utility-monkey, I'd certainly go with what Aett_Thorn proposed.

Now, let me please suggest another option, which is neither Bard nor Wizard... Druid!
You would be definitely lacking in the skills department (although just a single level of Rogue could at least make you great in two skills) but as far as spellcasting versatility goes, it easily trumps both Bard and Wizard, since you can change spells each day, and you get many of the best low-level spells: Healing Words, Earth Tremor, Thunderwave, Fog Cloud, Faerie Fire, Heat Metal, Enhance Ability, Pass Without Trace, Moonbeam, Spike Growth, Plant Growth, Conjure Animals, Water Breathing, Wind Wall, Polymorph, Elemental Bane, Wall of Fire etc...

I would probably go Land Druid for some great extra spells (Grassland or Underdark) but provided you are ready to memorize beasts stats Moon Druid could be a nice option to expand utility too.

Basically, you get interchangeable healing, single target buff/debuff/damage, AOE buff/debuff/damage all in one nice package.

As for face-skills, either take a starting level in Rogue/Bard, or 2-level in Knowledge Cleric, or just grab Skilled/Actor feat should be enough.

Food for thought... :)

[Biggstick]

In the party I'm about to join there's already a Barbarian, a Ranger and a Psionic (or Mystic as they call him these days) and the general opinion is that they really need a spellcaster, preferably a Wizard to cover for the lack of controlling capabilities of this party, plus the much needed utility. At the same time after talking to the DM, I found out that a social/face guy is also needed (plus I really want to be that guy), so the way I see it that leaves me with options.

You have a pair of primarily martial characters, plus a Mystic. I don't really know exactly what a Mystic contributes to the party, so I'll just go with the assumption of 0. You most definitely need a primary caster in the party. You seem to want to play both a Wizard and a Bard, stating both your familiarity with Wizard and want to play The Face. Personally, it's always nice to play a true face as a Bard with expertise in Persuasion + whatever other expertise you're looking for. You don't have to worry about spells working or not to be effective, you always have that high Persuasion check available to you. if I were choosing a class to "fill the spot" in this party, my choice would be Bard.

Now the party wants a Wizard for their control. A Bard does have some of the tools necessary to fill this role, though it does require a few of your precious spell choices to properly do. I'm going to suggest a spell list, and this spell list will allow you to do exactly what the party expects of you with as varied an approach as possible.

1st level spells: Faerie Fire, Healing Word.
2nd level spells: Shatter.
3rd level spells: Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern.

I've chosen these spells for a very particular reason. Everyone expects you as a Bard to have Healing Word, plus it makes for effective use of your bonus actions if you're not using Bardic Inspiration that turn. Plus, you're the only person other then the Ranger who will potentially have a healing spell. Faerie Fire is a god-send for your Ranger and/or Barbarian, granting them advantage on attack rolls against the target, while requiring the target(s) to make a Dex save. You're grabbing Shatter so that you can provide ranged AOE damage, and it requires a Con save. You're grabbing Hypnotic Pattern, as it can completely shut down or change an encounter, and it requires a Wis save. Lastly, you're grabbing Dispel Magic, as it's a powerful spell that allows you to deal with a plethora of situations, and just like with Counterspell, a Bard is one of the best Dispellers in the game.

We've chosen these three AOE spells (Faerie Fire, Shatter, and Hypnotic Pattern) because of the different capabilities each provides, as well as the varied saving throws they require (Dex, Con, and Wis respectively). They're all AOE, which is what the party wants you as the ranged magical support to provide. Dispel Magic and Healing Word provide a little more ranged support, in regards to debuffing something magical and getting your allies back up when they fall to 0 hp. The reason we're focusing on ranged AOE support in combat is that your party is one that isn't going to have problems doing damage to single targets with both a Ranger and a Barbarian. It's groups of enemies, or ranged groups of enemies, that will need you as the controller to be able to deal with. This spell list does that. I'd also recommend grabbing Lesser Restoration as your party doesn't have much to deal with such a problem, but isn't exactly expected of a Bard.

With this base selection of spells and a decent Charisma, you're going to be a fantastic support character, regardless of if you go Lore or Valor. Personally though, with your party, I'd suggest Lore Bard. As for my level 6 Bardic Secrets, I'd suggest Fly and Counterspell. I don't have to explain Counterspell, but I'd recommend Fly because of the universal value the spell has. We already have our aoe damage spell with Shatter, and Fly allows us to have a bit more of that Wizard-like utility.

As another consideration, I don't see anyone who has proficiency with Thieves Tools. Those would be good to make sure someone has proficiency with. A Bard can easily start as a Criminal or Urchine and pick up said proficiency if no one else has them.

Overall though, a Bard or a Wizard would be a great addition to this party. You won't go wrong with either choice.

[saberrider]

Hi!

Coming in a little late, but in case you are still open to suggestions...
If you really want to be the skill-monkey and utility-monkey, I'd certainly go with what Aett_Thorn proposed.

Now, let me please suggest another option, which is neither Bard nor Wizard... Druid!
I would probably go Land Druid for some great extra spells (Grassland or Underdark) but provided you are ready to memorize beasts stats Moon Druid could be a nice option to expand utility too.
Basically, you get interchangeable healing, single target buff/debuff/damage, AOE buff/debuff/damage all in one nice package.
As for face-skills, either take a starting level in Rogue/Bard, or 2-level in Knowledge Cleric, or just grab Skilled/Actor feat should be enough.

Food for thought... :)

Thank you very much for your suggestion, it is an interesting one, although Druid is not really my cup of tea.:(


1st level spells: Faerie Fire, Healing Word.
2nd level spells: Shatter.
3rd level spells: Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern.

I can see where you're coming from, choosing spells for the dual role of a utility/controller Bard definitely reduces the margin of error.

With this base selection of spells and a decent Charisma, you're going to be a fantastic support character, regardless of if you go Lore or Valor. Personally though, with your party, I'd suggest Lore Bard.
Definitely a Lore Bard, I haven't even considered any other college.


As for my level 6 Bardic Secrets, I'd suggest [B]Fly and Counterspell.

See? Again that's why I'm afraid of a Bard's lack of spells known and leaving the Wizard -endless options - comfort zone. I picked Fireball for an extra offensive option but fly is one of my favorite spells and a pretty strong alternative.


As another consideration, I don't see anyone who has proficiency with Thieves Tools. Those would be good to make sure someone has proficiency with. A Bard can easily start as a Criminal or Urchine and pick up said proficiency if no one else has them.

The background I have in mind is something between a guild merchant and a noble, an Italian renaissance patrician if you will, so strictly for rp purposes I will probably take a disguise kit along with the actor or silver tongued feat.

[saberrider]

Not sure how useful both Invisibility and Greater Invisibility are.

Bard is super fun. Oh and take Vicious Mockery. :smallsmile:

I'll probably drop Greater Invisibility due to it's rather short duration.

[Biggstick]

See? Again that's why I'm afraid of a Bard's lack of spells known and leaving the Wizard -endless options - comfort zone. I picked Fireball for an extra offensive option but fly is one of my favorite spells and a pretty strong alternative.

The background I have in mind is something between a guild merchant and a noble, an Italian renaissance patrician if you will, so strictly for rp purposes I will probably take a disguise kit along with the actor or silver tongued feat.

I just recently played stand-alone game (3 sessions total) as a level 14 Transmutation Wizard in a 4 person group for Tomb of Horrors. We were all level 14 (Wizard, Bard, Rogue, Paladin), and had solid starting equipment (2-3 uncommon items, a rare item, and about 5-7k worth of gold to spend). As a level 14 Wizard with 20 Intelligence, I had 19 spells that I was able to prepare. The level 14 Valor Bard had 18 known spells. Without my character sheet in front of me, I would probably guess I had about 10 ritual spells that were available in addition to my 19 prepared spells for the day. I've also played three Valor Bards that made it up to levels 10-13.

While those ritual spells are nice to have available, they simply aren't the same in quality to the standard spells you can prepare. Just as an example, here are the solid level 3 Wizard spells that I'd want to prepare every day that aren't ritual spells: Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Fly, Gaseous Form, Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Sending, Slow, and Tongues. It's just not feasible to realistically choose all of these spells, as I have other great choices in all the other spell slots.

The other point to bring up, is while Wizards have "endless options," they still have to actually acquire or learn these spells from somewhere. Per RAW, you're only learning 2 spells a level, meaning you're typically only learning 4 spells at each spell level. This makes the Wizard a pretty tough class to really count on in the acquiring of some of the more fun spells, as you're probably making more combat oriented or utility oriented spell choices when you choose spells every time you level up.

As a TLDR, Wizards might technically have a larger list of spells available to them, they still have a very similar number of spells prepared/known to the Bard. If range of spells is what's keeping you from choosing Bard over Wizard, I'd urge you to take another look.

In regards to background choice, it really isn't too big of a deal regarding having Thieves Tools proficiency. Jack of all Trades applies to all ability checks. This would include using tool sets, as using a set of tools requires an ability check. Pick up Enhance Ability as one of your level 2 spells and you have advantage on it on top of JoaT!

[Citan]

Thank you very much for your suggestion, it is an interesting one, although Druid is not really my cup of tea.:(

See? Again that's why I'm afraid of a Bard's lack of spells known and leaving the Wizard -endless options - comfort zone. I picked Fireball for an extra offensive option but fly is one of my favorite spells and a pretty strong alternative.

The background I have in mind is something between a guild merchant and a noble, an Italian renaissance patrician if you will, so strictly for rp purposes I will probably take a disguise kit along with the actor or silver tongued feat.
Hi! ;)

No problem, it's your character, and to each his own taste (to be honest I kinda anticipated it, since you clearly seemed to have thought a while already, just wanted to make sure ^^).

I saw your detailed post in-between, it's great.
And from your posts, it seems the Lore Bard one is definitely suiting you better than Wizard as far as roleplaying goes at least...
It seems you still have a few doubts about it being "sufficiently versatile"...

1. Lack of spell known?
Honestly I wouldn't be that afraid of that. But unless you are really against feats (which you are apparently not ;)) and multiclassing...
- With your Lore Bard build and starting 18 CHA, you could spend level 4 ASI on Ritual Caster: Wizard. Freeing a handful of Bard spells in turn that you can spend on more offensive spells. Or, you could take a single-level dip into Wizard or Sorcerer to expand offense and utility.
- With your Wizard build, it would be even better to take a starting level into Bard: although delayed progression, you can rack 4 spells including the healing ones and get proficient in those charisma skills then go on as Wizard to cover every other area...

2. Sufficient contribution to the party?
Even as a Lore Bard, barring the fact you can take care of skills nobody is proficient into, just those following spells will make you loved...
- Healing Words: no need to explain.
- Enhance Ability: whether in social or combat situations, you will always find at least one chance per day to use it well...
- Faerie Fire: advantage for everyone (also takes care of invisible people).
- Heat Metal: unless you play in a campaign with very few armored creatures, this is one of the best ways to help your mates.
- Phantasmal Force: no need to explain how efficient this is...
- Polymorph: as versatile as a spell may be.

3. Lack of control?
Heat Metal and Phantasmal Force for single-target (also, Blindness).
For mass control, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern will usually do the trick, Silence for casters with a martial help. You could also pick Slow as Magic Secrets.

4. Lack of AOE?
Well, Fireball is always the classic great one. But if you are torn between that and another spell for Magic Secrets? Listen to your gut and pick your preferred one: Bard can learn Shatter: less damage, lesser area (which means lesser friendly damage though ^^) but added utility.

Anyways, your party cannot expect a single spellcaster that is not a Druid to cover all grounds (and even a Druid usually would have to choose some orientation for any given day, cannot "cover" everything kind of spell until mid-level at least).

But you will provide enough versatility in all situations (exploration/combat/social), no worries. :)



The other point to bring up, is while Wizards have "endless options," they still have to actually acquire or learn these spells from somewhere. Per RAW, you're only learning 2 spells a level, meaning you're typically only learning 4 spells at each spell level. This makes the Wizard a pretty tough class to really count on in the acquiring of some of the more fun spells, as you're probably making more combat oriented or utility oriented spell choices when you choose spells every time you level up.

Sooo many people tend to forget about that and consider that having lots of extra spell is granted around here... :smallbiggrin:

[saberrider]

As a TLDR, Wizards might technically have a larger list of spells available to them, they still have a very similar number of spells prepared/known to the Bard. If range of spells is what's keeping you from choosing Bard over Wizard, I'd urge you to take another look.

In regards to background choice, it really isn't too big of a deal regarding having Thieves Tools proficiency. Jack of all Trades applies to all ability checks. This would include using tool sets, as using a set of tools requires an ability check. Pick up Enhance Ability as one of your level 2 spells and you have advantage on it on top of JoaT!

You sir have just sold me on it. You made very good points so a Bard it is. Thank you all for your help!

[saberrider]

It seems you still have a few doubts about it being "sufficiently versatile"...

My doubts had nothing to do about versatility believe me, after all a Bard is a little bit of everything. I was just worried about how forgiving can this class be, regarding spell selection. As Biggstick mentioned a Wizard is not guaranteed to find every scroll or spellbook and learn any spell available, but nonetheless it is a possibility whereas a Bard's spell pool is limited. So knowing this limitation and since I don't want to play the guy who just heals, or who just casts fireballs etc but instead a flexible caster with a somewhat balanced variety of utility and combat spells, I was a bit hesitant.


But unless you are really against feats (which you are apparently not ;)) and multiclassing...

What's not to love about feats?


2. Sufficient contribution to the party?
Even as a Lore Bard, barring the fact you can take care of skills nobody is proficient into, just those following spells will make you loved...

I think inspiration and cutting words will also make me loved:)


But you will provide enough versatility in all situations (exploration/combat/social), no worries. :)

That's what I'm hoping for:)

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Healing Word to oick your allies up from thw ground as a bonus action is an AMAZING Bard spell. Do Wizards have any healing spells? Does anyone else in your party?

If not this mandates Bard IMO.

Now you can multi class your Bard to get some damaging level 1's and Cantrips if you need to. I find our party's wizard can generally cause more damage than my badd. Then again if the rogue was dead he wouldn't have done the 20 hp damage the last round after I healed him so that should count in the Bard's favor.

[Sigreid]

Hi! ;)

No problem, it's your character, and to each his own taste (to be honest I kinda anticipated it, since you clearly seemed to have thought a while already, just wanted to make sure ^^).

I saw your detailed post in-between, it's great.
And from your posts, it seems the Lore Bard one is definitely suiting you better than Wizard as far as roleplaying goes at least...
It seems you still have a few doubts about it being "sufficiently versatile"...

1. Lack of spell known?
Honestly I wouldn't be that afraid of that. But unless you are really against feats (which you are apparently not ;)) and multiclassing...
- With your Lore Bard build and starting 18 CHA, you could spend level 4 ASI on Ritual Caster: Wizard. Freeing a handful of Bard spells in turn that you can spend on more offensive spells. Or, you could take a single-level dip into Wizard or Sorcerer to expand offense and utility.
- With your Wizard build, it would be even better to take a starting level into Bard: although delayed progression, you can rack 4 spells including the healing ones and get proficient in those charisma skills then go on as Wizard to cover every other area...

2. Sufficient contribution to the party?
Even as a Lore Bard, barring the fact you can take care of skills nobody is proficient into, just those following spells will make you loved...
- Healing Words: no need to explain.
- Enhance Ability: whether in social or combat situations, you will always find at least one chance per day to use it well...
- Faerie Fire: advantage for everyone (also takes care of invisible people).
- Heat Metal: unless you play in a campaign with very few armored creatures, this is one of the best ways to help your mates.
- Phantasmal Force: no need to explain how efficient this is...
- Polymorph: as versatile as a spell may be.

3. Lack of control?
Heat Metal and Phantasmal Force for single-target (also, Blindness).
For mass control, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern will usually do the trick, Silence for casters with a martial help. You could also pick Slow as Magic Secrets.

4. Lack of AOE?
Well, Fireball is always the classic great one. But if you are torn between that and another spell for Magic Secrets? Listen to your gut and pick your preferred one: Bard can learn Shatter: less damage, lesser area (which means lesser friendly damage though ^^) but added utility.

Anyways, your party cannot expect a single spellcaster that is not a Druid to cover all grounds (and even a Druid usually would have to choose some orientation for any given day, cannot "cover" everything kind of spell until mid-level at least).

But you will provide enough versatility in all situations (exploration/combat/social), no worries. :)


Sooo many people tend to forget about that and consider that having lots of extra spell is granted around here... :smallbiggrin:

Well, some of us actively hunt other wizards for spellbooks...

[Citan]

Well, some of us actively hunt other wizards for spellbooks...
Tss tss, such a crude way of looking for arcanic enlightnement... Although it does fit with the classic trope of Wizards being extremely megalomaniac and paranoïd, thus considering any other people than themselves -especially fellow arcanists- as threat&loot at the same time. :smallwink:

While just managing to bypass these natural tendencies to develop a true friendship with a fellow Wizard from College or army would net you a guaranteed double output of spell known... :)

Or just creating your own place in an University/Guild/Order to profit from their private library... ^^

[Sigreid]

Tss tss, such a crude way of looking for arcanic enlightnement... Although it does fit with the classic trope of Wizards being extremely megalomaniac and paranoïd, thus considering any other people than themselves -especially fellow arcanists- as threat&loot at the same time. :smallwink:

While just managing to bypass these natural tendencies to develop a true friendship with a fellow Wizard from College or army would net you a guaranteed double output of spell known... :)

Or just creating your own place in an University/Guild/Order to profit from their private library... ^^

Well, my adventuring wizards are professional killers by definition.

Besides, the world is chalk full of wizards who are a danger to society. Think of it less as cold blooded murder and more as "regulating access to dangerous magics".

[Citan]

Well, my adventuring wizards are professional killers by definition.

Besides, the world is chalk full of wizards who are a danger to society. Think of it less as cold blooded murder and more as "regulating access to dangerous magics".
I like this way of thinking. XD:smallwink:

[Biggstick]

Anyways, your party cannot expect a single spellcaster that is not a Druid to cover all grounds (and even a Druid usually would have to choose some orientation for any given day, cannot "cover" everything kind of spell until mid-level at least).

Tbh, out of the prepared full spell casters (Cleric, Druid, and Wizard), I feel Druid has way more niche spells that are only useful in very particular situations. Cleric has less spells (100 1st through 9th level spells on their spell list, with an additional 10 from archetype) then the Druid (102 1st through 9th level spells on their spell list, with only Land Druids getting an additional 10), but I feel the Cleric spells are more universally useful then the Druid spells, as Druid spells require specific conditions for them to be effective. That might just be personal opinion, but I feel your statement of a Druid being able to cover all grounds, even in the midgame, is inaccurate.


Sooo many people tend to forget about that and consider that having lots of extra spell is granted around here... :smallbiggrin:

In the white room of theorycraft on the forums, people do. I rarely see Wizards at the tables I play at or DM, so I don't really see the accommodations made too often to Wizards.


Well, some of us actively hunt other wizards for spellbooks...

To remark on this, I'll add more to what I said above. When we've gone after Wizards in previous games, they did have a spellbook, but it rarely had the spells Wizards were looking for, or had 80-90 percent of the same spells inscribed in it that the PC Wizard already has. This isn't done to spite the PC Wizard, it just is the list of spells the NPC Wizard has in their book.

Now if all the PC's in the party are interested in "hunting" Wizards, to police the evil ones that you talked about in a later on post, that's great. But what if they don't? What if there is something more pressing that demands the time of the party because thousands of innocent lives are at stake here and now (and it in no way involves the Wizard your PC wants to chase down and who's spellbook you want to "acquire?" It's just not something that I as a Player ever want to have to depend on in regards to expanding my spell selection is all.


You sir have just sold me on it. You made very good points so a Bard it is. Thank you all for your help!

No problem! Bard is an amazing class that is capable of filling almost every role in the party, depending on how well you build them to fill the roles required.

[Sigreid]

Tbh, out of the prepared full spell casters (Cleric, Druid, and Wizard), I feel Druid has way more niche spells that are only useful in very particular situations. Cleric has less spells (100 1st through 9th level spells on their spell list, with an additional 10 from archetype) then the Druid (102 1st through 9th level spells on their spell list, with only Land Druids getting an additional 10), but I feel the Cleric spells are more universally useful then the Druid spells, as Druid spells require specific conditions for them to be effective. That might just be personal opinion, but I feel your statement of a Druid being able to cover all grounds, even in the midgame, is inaccurate.



In the white room of theorycraft on the forums, people do. I rarely see Wizards at the tables I play at or DM, so I don't really see the accommodations made too often to Wizards.



To remark on this, I'll add more to what I said above. When we've gone after Wizards in previous games, they did have a spellbook, but it rarely had the spells Wizards were looking for, or had 80-90 percent of the same spells inscribed in it that the PC Wizard already has. This isn't done to spite the PC Wizard, it just is the list of spells the NPC Wizard has in their book.

Now if all the PC's in the party are interested in "hunting" Wizards, to police the evil ones that you talked about in a later on post, that's great. But what if they don't? What if there is something more pressing that demands the time of the party because thousands of innocent lives are at stake here and now (and it in no way involves the Wizard your PC wants to chase down and who's spellbook you want to "acquire?" It's just not something that I as a Player ever want to have to depend on in regards to expanding my spell selection is all.



No problem! Bard is an amazing class that is capable of filling almost every role in the party, depending on how well you build them to fill the roles required.

On phone so I apologize for not trimming the quote. If you hunt wizards for spell books you don't get a bunch of new spells per book. Most of the time you get 1 to 3 spells you didn't already have. Sometimes you find all their spells are already on your list. The more spells you have in your book, the less likely you will find something new.

If you really want to be effective at it you have to invest in researching wizards and their known and rumored abilities.

[saberrider]

Well, some of us actively hunt other wizards for spellbooks...
To remark on this, I'll add more to what I said above. When we've gone after Wizards in previous games, they did have a spellbook, but it rarely had the spells Wizards were looking for, or had 80-90 percent of the same spells inscribed in it that the PC Wizard already has. This isn't done to spite the PC Wizard, it just is the list of spells the NPC Wizard has in their book.

Now if all the PC's in the party are interested in "hunting" Wizards, to police the evil ones that you talked about in a later on post, that's great. But what if they don't? What if there is something more pressing that demands the time of the party because thousands of innocent lives are at stake here and now (and it in no way involves the Wizard your PC wants to chase down and who's spellbook you want to "acquire?" It's just not something that I as a Player ever want to have to depend on in regards to expanding my spell selection is all.

That reminds me of when one of my favorite characters, a Drow Wizard and a trigger happy Sorcerer (played by a friend of mine) had a standoff after a heated argument. His fireball failed to bypass my SR, but the DM decided that my spellbook wasn't so lucky. So after I beat him, I cast a Geas commanding him to help me enrich my conveniently hidden backup spellbook. So there are ways to go around the party's unwillingness to help. :smalltongue:

[Biggstick]

That reminds me of when one of my favorite characters, a Drow Wizard and a trigger happy Sorcerer (played by a friend of mine) had a standoff after a heated argument. His fireball failed to bypass my SR, but the DM decided that my spellbook wasn't so lucky. So after I beat him, I cast a Geas commanding him to help me enrich my conveniently hidden backup spellbook. So there are ways to go around the party's unwillingness to help. :smalltongue:

I'm not even going to touch on the PvP aspects of this.

It's pretty easy to get a Geas removed. Remove Curse or Greater Restoration are both capable of doing it. Any Cleric NPC is probably able to cast Remove Curse, as it's only a third level spell, although it will probably cost a sizeable donation to said NPC Cleric's church.

Another point, is if you're casting Geas on this Sorcerer, you have access to 5th level spells, meaning you're probably level 9 or higher. The damage portion of Geas is only 5d10 at a maximum of once per day. While under the Geas, they view you as a friend, but that doesn't mean they are going to risk their life for you. They can probably easily take that 5d10 of psychic damage every day, refuse to risk their life to help you fill out the spare spell book, and simply take a short rest to recover from the damage.

[saberrider]

I'm not even going to touch on the PvP aspects of this.

It's pretty easy to get a Geas removed. Remove Curse or Greater Restoration are both capable of doing it. Any Cleric NPC is probably able to cast Remove Curse, as it's only a third level spell, although it will probably cost a sizeable donation to said NPC Cleric's church.

Another point, is if you're casting Geas on this Sorcerer, you have access to 5th level spells, meaning you're probably level 9 or higher. The damage portion of Geas is only 5d10 at a maximum of once per day. While under the Geas, they view you as a friend, but that doesn't mean they are going to risk their life for you. They can probably easily take that 5d10 of psychic damage every day, refuse to risk their life to help you fill out the spare spell book, and simply take a short rest to recover from the damage.

Sorry forgot to mention, I was referring to 3.5 version of Geas, where a cleric needed to have at least 2 caster levels higher than the original caster in order to remove it. Granted it wasn't lethal, but still for a squishy character to take a moderate amount of damage plus the sickened effect each day he failed to complete his task, was good enough.

[Citan]

Tbh, out of the prepared full spell casters (Cleric, Druid, and Wizard), I feel Druid has way more niche spells that are only useful in very particular situations. Cleric has less spells (100 1st through 9th level spells on their spell list, with an additional 10 from archetype) then the Druid (102 1st through 9th level spells on their spell list, with only Land Druids getting an additional 10), but I feel the Cleric spells are more universally useful then the Druid spells, as Druid spells require specific conditions for them to be effective. That might just be personal opinion, but I feel your statement of a Druid being able to cover all grounds, even in the midgame, is inaccurate.


Well, I myself have not that much interest in high-level Cleric spells so it probably influence my own opinion too (I would in fact have said the exact reverse of you, that Cleric has more niche spells -admitedly I'm very bad with divination spells so there is that too-). ;)

There is also no debate on the fact that Druid has quite a few situational spells (same could be same for Wizard though ^^).
Still, I feel that Druid is by far the best choice from level 1 to 13 for someone that wants at-will versatility.
Because contrarily to Wizard, you already have those niche spells at your disposal, so there is no "potential loss" beyond the fact one of those takes the place of a "regular" for a day.
But a Druid has several good options in all the aforementioned areas (damage, buff, debuff, single/mass target, utility),with usually decent scaling, including some of the spells that would earn the podium of built-in versatility (Enhance Ability, Polymorph, Conjure Animals)...
So it's very easy to either build a polyvalent Druid (even if obviously there will be areas better covered than others) then on another day build a specialized Druid...
(Note that this opinion takes Elemental Evil into account. There are many great spells in there that complement some weak areas, notably AOE damage).

It's a bit too bad only Druid and Cleric have this built-in versatility of prepared spells / all known spells, but I guess it's a mechanic choice that is tightly tied with the fact their power comes from appealing to a deity of sorts (although I don't really understand where Druid power comes from in the end).

[Biggstick]

Well, I myself have not that much interest in high-level Cleric spells so it probably influence my own opinion too (I would in fact have said the exact reverse of you, that Cleric has more niche spells -admitedly I'm very bad with divination spells so there is that too-). ;)

There is also no debate on the fact that Druid has quite a few situational spells (same could be same for Wizard though ^^).
Still, I feel that Druid is by far the best choice from level 1 to 13 for someone that wants at-will versatility.
Because contrarily to Wizard, you already have those niche spells at your disposal, so there is no "potential loss" beyond the fact one of those takes the place of a "regular" for a day.
But a Druid has several good options in all the aforementioned areas (damage, buff, debuff, single/mass target, utility),with usually decent scaling, including some of the spells that would earn the podium of built-in versatility (Enhance Ability, Polymorph, Conjure Animals)...
So it's very easy to either build a polyvalent Druid (even if obviously there will be areas better covered than others) then on another day build a specialized Druid...
(Note that this opinion takes Elemental Evil into account. There are many great spells in there that complement some weak areas, notably AOE damage).

It's a bit too bad only Druid and Cleric have this built-in versatility of prepared spells / all known spells, but I guess it's a mechanic choice that is tightly tied with the fact their power comes from appealing to a deity of sorts (although I don't really understand where Druid power comes from in the end).

Definitely agreed that it seems like bias on both our parts lol.

The games I play in and DM don't use Elemental Evil, so that might be a reason for the bias. I've only looked at a few of the spells from EE, and think cantrips like Mold Earth are a bit too powerful as they are to be allowed as a cantrip. And it just seemed to escalate from there the amount of power most of the spells seemed to have from EE.

[Citan]

Definitely agreed that it seems like bias on both our parts lol.

The games I play in and DM don't use Elemental Evil, so that might be a reason for the bias. I've only looked at a few of the spells from EE, and think cantrips like Mold Earth are a bit too powerful as they are to be allowed as a cantrip. And it just seemed to escalate from there the amount of power most of the spells seemed to have from EE.
Well, I'd say that the one area in which PHB Druid is "just good enough" (but still leagues above Cleric by design, barring Light/Tempest) is AOE damage: Thunderwave is impractical to say the least on a class with lowish AC, Flaming Sphere is a good one but lowish damage, Moonbeam is great but takes your action, as well as Call Ligthning (also requires outdoor), then finally comes the relief with Wall of Fire and Ice Storm.
They are all great spells, but the fact that nearly all have intrisincal duality (damage/utility, damage/control) makes most of them "just decent" in the damage part compared to other "just damage" spells of comparable level, until 4th level ones (Wall of Fire takes your concentration but can deal the equivalent of 3 to 6 Fireball).

EE, while still following somewhat the same way, provides spells that are easier to use, like Earth Tremor (1st level, small enough AOE to work with allies close-by) or Erupting Earth (3rd level, same idea but greater) or Tidal Wave (situational by its specific "shape" but can be great).

[Biggstick]

Well, I'd say that the one area in which PHB Druid is "just good enough" (but still leagues above Cleric by design, barring Light/Tempest) is AOE damage: Thunderwave is impractical to say the least on a class with lowish AC, Flaming Sphere is a good one but lowish damage, Moonbeam is great but takes your action, as well as Call Ligthning (also requires outdoor), then finally comes the relief with Wall of Fire and Ice Storm.
They are all great spells, but the fact that nearly all have intrisincal duality (damage/utility, damage/control) makes most of them "just decent" in the damage part compared to other "just damage" spells of comparable level, until 4th level ones (Wall of Fire takes your concentration but can deal the equivalent of 3 to 6 Fireball).

EE, while still following somewhat the same way, provides spells that are easier to use, like Earth Tremor (1st level, small enough AOE to work with allies close-by) or Erupting Earth (3rd level, same idea but greater) or Tidal Wave (situational by its specific "shape" but can be great).

You say AOE damage, and don't mention Spirit Guardians. This is probably one of the best AOE damage spells in the game, in that it is party friendly aoe that lasts longer then a minute and is of a rarely resisted damage type. All types of Clerics have access to Spirit Guardians.

As a Cleric, if you're not running Spirit Guardians, you can run Bless. Bless will be useful in a majority of combats, no matter what's actually going on in that combat. These two spells are the bread and butter of any Cleric's standard prepared spell list, and they're almost universally useful in any type of combat your party participates in. Druids do not have something that matches the universal usefulness of these two spells that a Cleric doesn't also have on their spell list.

[Citan]

You say AOE damage, and don't mention Spirit Guardians. This is probably one of the best AOE damage spells in the game, in that it is party friendly aoe that lasts longer then a minute and is of a rarely resisted damage type. All types of Clerics have access to Spirit Guardians.

As a Cleric, if you're not running Spirit Guardians, you can run Bless. Bless will be useful in a majority of combats, no matter what's actually going on in that combat. These two spells are the bread and butter of any Cleric's standard prepared spell list, and they're almost universally useful in any type of combat your party participates in. Druids do not have something that matches the universal usefulness of these two spells that a Cleric doesn't also have on their spell list.
Yeah, I don't mention Spirit Guardians, for two reasons.

First, the obvious one, my previous post was about Druids "in a nutshell", not specifically calling for a detailed comparison. I guess my parenthesis was enough to draw you still... So then let's to the second point.

Second, because while it's technically AOE because it can affect several creatures, it's nearly a one-of-its-kind and very different from the usual acception of "AOE spell" which is used for the others...
Spirit Guardians is extremely similar to some Druid spells in that it have many built-in uses, by combining stacking damage and halving terrain. Those are the things that make it indeed a great spell to use.

It does not come without severe constraints though.
To start, it's only 15 feet around: it's a fairly restrictive field to cover and, as I sadly discovered today (by lack of practice), it's even worse when using grids since it's only 2 squares around the caster.

To follow, it's centered on the caster: while Cleric is the one caster that can boast the best "native" AC, especially heavy armor domains, it still puts him in a complex situation in which he wants to attain a difficult balance between more creatures in effect zone but adequate number effectively attacking him.
With only a probable +2 in Constitution saves until he gets Warcaster/Resilient (or both), it will be difficult to maintain concentration for a long time. Even with Resilient, it will still amount to somewhere between +5 and +8. Meaning that taking one or two hits should be fine unless you are unlucky, but taking a beat translating as a chain of 5 or 6 successful attacks would quickly increase the probability of breaking concentration.

So the 10mn casting just makes it possible to pre-cast whenever you had enough time to anticipate a fight is coming... But rares will be the situations in which you both succeeded to maintain SG over one encounter and still having another one in chain.
Incidentally, it does make it a great spell when paired with a Protection martial to cover party escape through narrow corridors, acting as their rear guard, especially if someone can launch an AOE once they are all clumped behind...

Anyways, I think the point is clear: it puts the Cleric directly in harm's way, for best or worse. Either the player plays it safe, and it will be more or less of a damage level comparable to an upcast Heat Metal because you will have one, sometimes two, creatures at the same time in the area... Or the player plays it hard, with the risk of having SG dropped in one or two rounds, and angry mob around him.
Making it quite the finesse spell to use. :)

That's the same reason why I said that Thunderwave was impractical, because using it basically means you are surrounded by hostiles in the first place, which is usually not a good thing. XD

And it may very well be one of the direct reasons of Spirit Guardians being ally-friendly: unless you specifically build a Cleric for resilience (mix of Heavy Armor Master, Inspiring Leader, Resilient:Constitution, Warcaster) you will usually best use Spirit Guardians by having one strong melee martial close to you, that can interpose himself to take attacks for you, or divert attacks directed to you, or reduce direct threats with Sentinel/Grapple/Shove/kill. Thus resolving the "solo conundrum" of "I want many enemies close to me, I'd like them to get interested into me, yet not too much otherwise I'll hurt". XD

Third, besides that, Spirit Guardians is the only one of the whole three AOE spells (from what I recall) all Clerics get: Spirit Guardians at 3rd, Flame Strike at 5th (dual damage and half on save is good, but shape and diameter make it hard to use barring niche situations) and Fire Storm at 7th (which Druid also gets).

Compare to that any AOE spell a Druid gets, or the spells Light/Tempest Cleric gets (hence my exclusion of them in comparison) which are Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard spells: all of them can be cast from a safe distance, offer either damage+riders (Thunderwave, Earth Tremor) or damage+utility (Shatter) or great damage (Fireball) or sustained damage (Spike Growth, Moonbeam, Wall of Fire).
Of course none of those is ally-friendly, but thanks to range and spell variety, you should usually find one that adequately (if not "optimumly") the quadratic circle of "no ff" / "non-resisted damage" / "non-strong save" / "as many enemies affected as possible".

----
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying it's "bad" or anything that Cleric doesn't have those options. I'm just saying that...
- AOE damage is just not his schtick at all (one could even argue that the main use of Spirit Guardians is to severely limit enemy movement and deal just enough damage overtime to draw attention of a particularly annoying target, but YMMV, good player in a good teamworking group may manage to keep 3+ creatures inside)
- And versatility is generally not his schtick either. Like Bard (barring Magic Secrets) it's a class that heavily favors a few kind of spells and strongly disregards others.
Whereas the Druid won't get the best "representants" of each area (barring conjuring spells), but get very good representatives of each nevertheless including some exclusive spells, except in a few areas like healing (no resurrect spell, no Aid, no Mass Healing Words) and divination (Druid has like, only 1st and 2nd level spells?), which are, by sheer coincidence of course, the prime fields of expertise of a Cleric. :=)