Why do People Hate D20 Cthulhu?

[Tainted_Scholar]

It seems like D20 Cthulhu isn't very popular among most Cthulhu players. I've only played with it a little but it seems to work just fine from what I've seen, so why do people dislike it?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Likely because d20 just doesn't mesh well with horror survival stuff. d20 is eminently about becoming quite powerful over time, even with mundane classes, and that just doesn't work with the Cthulu Mythos. Like, at all.

[Nifft]

I've never met anyone who expressed that opinion, so perhaps you're a victim of small sample size.


Some random ideas which are based on zero data:
- d20 is associated with heroic fantasy, and CoC is not that genre.
- The d20 CoC license killed a more popular CoC product.
- The 3rd party d20 publishing craze brought with it some terrible content, and d20 CoC had notable examples of such, and is tainted by association.

These fact-free theories are brought to you by teatime.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Likely because d20 just doesn't mesh well with horror survival stuff. d20 is eminently about becoming quite powerful over time, even with mundane classes, and that just doesn't work with the Cthulu Mythos. Like, at all.

But, the Investigators aren't powerful in the slightest, and the monsters in the books are nigh unkillable compared to the Investigators. Killing a Shoggoth is practically impossible. Investigators aren't like D&D adventurers. Also the GM has almost complete control over when/if the Players level up.

[Demonique]

The character concept is completely different from Chaosium to D20 - characters in chaosium do not get harder to kill, they just get more knowledgeable.
Elder gods are always out of reach, eldritch horrors remain deadly (chaosium list Cthulu's attacks as "kills 1D4 adventurers per round (2D4 if adventurers are at face level)").
Shotguns are as likely to kill a L20 character as a L1.

D20 seems to be more about collection of power than deeper understanding. D20 characters are about being epic - shrugging off damage that would level buildings, and dealing much the same.

It's hard to translate the essential 'core' of chaosium's system to D20.

[Thurbane]

Two main gripes I'm aware of:

1. Great Old Ones have stats, and can be killed.

2. d20 is not as good a system for CoC as previous editions.

...personally, I quite like d20 Cthulhu and what it offers.

[Tainted_Scholar]

1. Great Old Ones have stats, and can be killed.

Technically yes, practically no.

[johnbragg]

Technically yes, practically no.

Isn't the objection really philosophical rather than practical? Just the fact that the Great Old Ones can be killed--even killing them in the game takes enough power to snuff out the sun, (Iron Heart Surge not allowed), the fact that they're even theoretically killable is badwrongfun.

[Thurbane]

Isn't the objection really philosophical rather than practical? Just the fact that the Great Old Ones can be killed--even killing them in the game takes enough power to snuff out the sun, (Iron Heart Surge not allowed), the fact that they're even theoretically killable is badwrongfun.

Pretty much.

Personally, I don't view it much differently than greater deities having stats in 3.5.

If the DM has an issue with it, it's easy to rule 0 them to have infinite HP and unbreachable defenses.

[daremetoidareyo]

player agency expanded dramatically in the conversion of 2e to 3e. 3e as a system is designed around player empowerment, probably thanks to the internet and gaming rpgs as a gateway to discovery.

Anyway, Cthulu's charm is about the deepening horror of discovering that you're powerless. The character building minigame of D20, paired with some of the cultural aspects of the D20 system (e.g.: player entitlement) leaves d20 cthulu as a game divorced from some of the aspects of horror that make cthulu compelling in the first place.

[kuhaica]

Technically yes, practically no.

If old man Henderson (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Old_Man_Henderson) can! Anybody can!


As for the question. Most people in my area simply prefer the none d20 Cthulhu games. So it's probably just personal preferences.

[flappeercraft]

If old man Henderson (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Old_Man_Henderson) can! Anybody can!


As for the question. Most people in my area simply prefer the none d20 Cthulhu games. So it's probably just personal preferences.

It's Old man henderson though, he can and will do anything and everything

[Nifft]

If old man Henderson (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Old_Man_Henderson) can! Anybody can!

If a cheater can, then anybody can?

I mean, the lesson there was that player cheating >>>> great old ones.

It's a solid lesson for DMs who try to out-gun PCs.

But cheating isn't widely applicable.

[ZamielVanWeber]

D20 Cthulhu just does not do Cthulhu as well as the CoC RP. D20 Cthulhu works lovely and as long as you are used to the d20 rules and not in the mood to learn new ones will do you fine honestly.

[Thurbane]

If you want to keep the "PCs as helpless bugs to be squashed under the heel of cosmic horrors" feel of CoC, you could try running CoC d20 with E6 rules (or maybe E4)?

[Luccan]

While I am not familiar with the Cthulhu RPGs, I also have theory. Going by what I've seen online, outside of 3.5 DnD, d20 is not well regarded (even by a number of 3.5 players). As has been said though, En (where n is a number representing the max level a character may gain in the proposed adventure or campaign) games could probably fix a lot of the power scaling problems.

[Kurald Galain]

Likely because d20 just doesn't mesh well with horror survival stuff. d20 is eminently about becoming quite powerful over time, even with mundane classes, and that just doesn't work with the Cthulu Mythos. Like, at all.


Anyway, Cthulu's charm is about the deepening horror of discovering that you're powerless. The character building minigame of D20, paired with some of the cultural aspects of the D20 system (e.g.: player entitlement) leaves d20 cthulu as a game divorced from some of the aspects of horror that make cthulu compelling in the first place.

That and that. There is a very clear difference in design philosophy between COC and d20. Merely sticking to low-level d20 isn't the answer; part of the issue is that d20 has levels in the first place.

[Mordaedil]

I feel like the problem with d20 Call of Cthulhu is kind of more presentation. D&D books are presented in a very clinical fashion with bright pages and detailed descriptions of how mechanical all of the limbs of the monsters are, but a problem is that it throws the flash-light on the monster in the closet and you can sure see the monster, but because you can see it very clearly, it isn't very scary anymore. There is no horror to be had there, there is mechanics and there is a picture without very deep shadows unless the monster is shadows, but it's still too clear what you are looking at.

Contrast with the sixth edition of CoC where pictures are grainy, unclear, almost badly photoprints with stains and rough caricatures of the monsters they represent. They look like someone hastily drew the abomination they were seeing, along with some descriptions and then given a small makeover by a police profiler.

For Cthulhu to work, you need to keep the monster in the closet, because every good horror movie shows that showing the monster makes it not scary.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For Cthulhu to work, you need to keep the monster in the closet, because every good horror movie shows that showing the monster makes it not scary.Except Twilight.

The horror is real on that one.

[JyP]

While I am not familiar with the Cthulhu RPGs, I also have theory. Going by what I've seen online, outside of 3.5 DnD, d20 is not well regarded (even by a number of 3.5 players). As has been said though, En (where n is a number representing the max level a character may gain in the proposed adventure or campaign) games could probably fix a lot of the power scaling problems.
I don't think so - in Cthulhu setting, PCs are normal people - and even D20 level 1 PCs are cut to be heroes, above mundanes. In Cthulhu, you play the torchbearers going to the basement infested with rats, and it would be scary whether these are fresh torchbearers or torchbearers which have already seen such basement before.

[Ashtagon]

Related thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?523900-E6-D20-Call-of-Cthulhu

I stand by my statement that a lot of people playing d20 CoC haven't fully grasped just how hard humans get nerfed under those rules compared to standard D&D. That said, the book does have flawed rules, as outlined in my set of proposed fixes.

It bears repeating that the single most notable change is that 10 hp damage is enough to trigger a massive damage save. That basically means the huge pile of hp that mid-high level PCs have is basically irrelevant.

I think the d20 CoC writers focused on horror as jump scares (notably, most of the sanity loss rules are in that area), but skipped out at presenting the existential horror aspect of CoC, which is what the setting is really all about. Existential horror doesn't really lend itself well to formal rules, which is what the d20 system is all about.

----------------

Relevant posts:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14591702&postcount=8
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15258286&postcount=8

d20 typically presents monsters as "can it kill me?" threats, which is counter to the basic concept of what Lovecraft style horror is all about.

[JyP]

Related thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?523900-E6-D20-Call-of-Cthulhu

I stand by my statement that a lot of people playing d20 CoC haven't fully grasped just how hard humans get nerfed under those rules compared to standard D&D. That said, the book does have flawed rules, as outlined in my set of proposed fixes.
Agreed - I only know d20, not d20 CoC, so my remark about torchbearers is not valid.

[Knaight]

I stand by my statement that a lot of people playing d20 CoC haven't fully grasped just how hard humans get nerfed under those rules compared to standard D&D. That said, the book does have flawed rules, as outlined in my set of proposed fixes.

It bears repeating that the single most notable change is that 10 hp damage is enough to trigger a massive damage save. That basically means the huge pile of hp that mid-high level PCs have is basically irrelevant.

They still have that massive pile of HP though, and for the most part it isn't standard D&D that people are comparing it to - it's CoC, where the use of the d20 system at all represents a dramatic power spike.

[Feantar]

Pretty much.

Personally, I don't view it much differently than greater deities having stats in 3.5.

If the DM has an issue with it, it's easy to rule 0 them to have infinite HP and unbreachable defenses.

I disagree. In D&D it is thematically appropriate to kill a deity, even a greater deity, because most D&D is orientated around epic fantasy. Cosmic horror is diametrically opposed to this theme - you should not be able to matter in the least in against an old one - in a sense, you should not even be stating them as creatures.

To expand on this, in most D&D settings deities come and go, even greater deities. The old ones are similar to the fundamentals of the universe - deities are mere servants of such. The equivalent of killing an old one in D&D would be "I killed the Outlands" or "I killed Chaos". Killing an old one should be utterly impossible in a genre where existential hopelessness is the fulcrum.

[Kurald Galain]

I disagree. In D&D it is thematically appropriate to kill a deity, even a greater deity, because most D&D is orientated around epic fantasy. Cosmic horror is diametrically opposed to this theme - you should not be able to matter in the least in against an old one - in a sense, you should not even be stating them as creatures.

To expand on this, in most D&D settings deities come and go, even greater deities. The old ones are similar to the fundamentals of the universe - deities are mere servants of such. The equivalent of killing an old one in D&D would be "I killed the Outlands" or "I killed Chaos". Killing an old one should be utterly impossible in a genre where existential hopelessness is the fulcrum.

Precisely. Great Old Ones shouldn't have stats for the same reason that the Lady of Pain doesn't.

[ShurikVch]

Apparently, people are have very vague ideas about how exactly CoC d20 works.
So, allow me to point it:

Firstly, hit points.
See, loss of hit points is far from the worse thing which can happen with CoC d20 character, but we should start somewhere...
Firstly, there are (likely) wouldn't be any healing magic
Health is restored by 1 hp/level (x1,5 if "complete rest"; x2 if somebody using Heal skill for Long-Term Physical Care)
Also, Massive Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage) rule is working - except you should roll it after losing 10 hp; for monsters - it's still 50

Ability drain can't be restored at all

Sanity
Sanity score is simultaneously the greatest resource and the biggest weak spot of CoC d20 character
You starting game with Sanity score = (Wis score x 5)
Also, you got +1d6 Sanity points at level-up
(But no matter how well you go - your Sanity can't get higher than 99)
You losing Sanity score:
by experiencing disturbing events
by meeting monsters
by casting spells
by using artefactsNote: there are no ways to prevent sanity loss. You may roll saves to prevent Sanity damage, but in numerous cases - even at successful save you still will take Sanity damage
If you lose too much Sanity scores (50% of your Wis score) at once - you will suffer from Temporary Insanity
If 20% of your current Sanity in 1 hour - Indefinite Insanity
If your Sanity score is -10 - Permanent Insanity
Even a Temporary Insanity lasts at least 1d10+4 rounds (may be removed with successful Heal or Psychoanalysis check - as a full-round action)
Indefinite Insanity - 1d6 months
Sanity scores may be restored only by use of Psychoanalysis skill (Long-Term Care) - 1 point/week (on successful check; on natural 1 - character instead will lose 1 point); you can't give long-term care to yourself
Also, Cthulhu Mythos skill.
Any ranks in it also count as penalty to your Sanity score. Not damage - penalty.
And you even couldn't choose to just don't put any more ranks in Cthulhu Mythos - you do it automatically (and skill point-free) when studying magical books (such as Necronomicon) or contacting otherworldly creatures

Magic
There is no doubt: lion's share of reason why 3.5 characters are so powerful is magic
Try to suggest no-magic D&D campaign:
Oh no! We're all gonna die!
Will we, at least, have access to magic items?
No magic for us means no magic for enemies too, right?CoC d20 have only one character class - Investigator
So, does it have a magic?
Well... kinda "yes and no"
Unlike any caster class in D&D, Investigator doesn't get "spells known" from simply going up a level
Instead, spells are supposed to be learned either from magical books (such as Necronomicon), or from "friendly enough" otherworldly creatures (and we all understand how "high" our chances to meet such creature)
No book contain more than either 1d8+1, 2d8, or 4d6 spells - and you can't even predict (most of the time) which spells would it be
But learning a spell is just a start; eventually, you will need to cast it
Investigator have no spell slots
Instead, spells are cast "from Sanity".
Yes. Your most important resource will be used as power points
(Of course, otherworldly horrors and permanently insane Cult Sorcerers are have no Sanity - thus can cast for free :smallsigh:)
Also, some spells, in addition to Sanity damage, cause you ability damage (or even ability drain)
And there is no "Magic Mart" - you may spend whole campaign without getting a single Artefact


1. Great Old Ones have stats, and can be killed.Apparently, you doesn't checked those stats; Nyarlathotep and Shub-Niggurath are have Rejuvenation (similar to Ghost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm)'s) - thus couldn't be killed at all
Azathoth have Alter Reality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality)
Yog-Sothoth can time travel
Also, according to fluff, "True Gods" (team ASYN) are personifications of physical laws, so it's impossible to destroy them, at least - without seriously damaging universe.
Heck, Azathoth is the universe. If you somehow destroy him - it's the literal end of the world!

[Knaight]

Magic
There is no doubt: lion's share of reason why 3.5 characters are so powerful is magic
Try to suggest no-magic D&D campaign:
Oh no! We're all gonna die!
Will we, at least, have access to magic items?
No magic for us means no magic for enemies too, right?
Take magic out and D&D characters are still ridiculously powerful by the standards of the overall RPG industry - and the people hostile to d20 Cthulhu are generally familiar with a bigger chunk of that industry and not just D&D.


CoC d20 have only one character class - Investigator
Which is another weakness. There's no reason to use a class based system if you're only going to have one class, and an investigator class in Call of Cthulhu is roughly equivalent to a combatant class in D&D - there's way more archetypes than that in the source material, and even given CoC's focus on investigators there's still room for more than one type.

[ShurikVch]

Take magic out and D&D characters are still ridiculously powerful by the standards of the overall RPG industryIt looks like your knowledge of RPG industry is rather limited
Yes, we have such games as Boot Hill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Hill_(role-playing_game)) and Gangbusters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangbusters_(role-playing_game)).
But we also have Anima (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_(series)), Exalted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exalted), Mutants & Masterminds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutants_%26_Masterminds), and Nobilis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobilis).

[Hecuba]

Precisely. Great Old Ones shouldn't have stats for the same reason that the Lady of Pain doesn't.

I've always kinda hated that fact about the Old Ones and the Lady. It's a philosophical matter for me: I generally object to the idea that the correct response to the unknown is to revel/quake before it and call it unknowable.

It is certainly unknown.
It may be beyond the comprehension of the pathetic meat-and-water abacus that is the current human brain.

But nothing is unknowable. The fact that our frail human forms and mind simply means that we need to design something better. It can be a generational project.



That said, I recognize that that element I object to is one of the major elements that sells people on the idea of both the Lady and the Cthulhu mythos. These are elements that are intended to make you feel small.

And D20 doesn't do small well: any class and level system has problems with such a thing, and D20 makes it especially pronounced because of how leveling scales.

[Thurbane]

I disagree. In D&D it is thematically appropriate to kill a deity, even a greater deity, because most D&D is orientated around epic fantasy.

Wouldn't that depend entirely on the game/campaign? Yes, D&D is generally epic fantasy-esque, but at many tables, mine included, no deity can be slain by anything short of another deity.

Other than that, yes, you make points I agree with.

If I were playing d20 CoC, I would be playing it as a different game-type/genre than traditional CoC anyway.

[Knaight]

It looks like your knowledge of RPG industry is rather limited
Yes, we have such games as Boot Hill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Hill_(role-playing_game)) and Gangbusters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangbusters_(role-playing_game)).
But we also have Anima (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_(series)), Exalted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exalted), Mutants & Masterminds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutants_%26_Masterminds), and Nobilis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobilis).

I'm not saying that D&D is at the very top, merely that the characters are incredibly powerful by a broader standard. This is particularly notable given that D&D characters are nominally humans and human like species - powerful individuals, but still regular people compared to demigods (Exalted), superheroes (Mutants & Masterminds), and gods (Nobilis). Boot Hill and Gangbusters are also far from the lower end of the scale. I'm pretty confident that almost all of them can handle the character from Everyone is John, let alone Mouseguard or Bunnies & Burrows characters.

On top of this, nobody is suggesting that if you're going for Cthulhu style horror* you adapt those games, and pointing out that a character in a horror game is less powerful than the characters of those games doesn't mean that they aren't powerful. Characters in a given game being flimsy compared to D&D characters says roughly as much.

*There are horror games where those would be worth considering - Mythender is fundamentally a game about staring into the abyss and it staring back into you, about the failure and collapse of the human spirit, and about the dangers of power. It's a horror game. It's also a game where you end myths, kill gods, and have accidental apotheosis as a real risk.

[Thurbane]

Precisely. Great Old Ones shouldn't have stats for the same reason that the Lady of Pain doesn't.

That's a pretty good analogy.

In my game, and others I've sat in on, the DMs give all greater deities the Lady fo Pain treatment (i.e. has no stats, and effectively cannot be destroyed except by polt device).

[RoboEmperor]

Everything should have stats. d&d is a Player versus Environment game. As such achieving godhood and killing other gods or enslaving them should totally be possible if it is what the player wants to do.

I like binding Demon Princes when I hit epic levels even though they are kind of lackluster because it's freaking awesome.

[Ashtagon]

Everything should have stats. d&d is a Player versus Environment game. As such achieving godhood and killing other gods or enslaving them should totally be possible if it is what the player wants to do.

I like binding Demon Princes when I hit epic levels even though they are kind of lackluster because it's freaking awesome.

Fair point if the game is D&D. But for this thread, the game in question is Call of Cthulhu. Different animal entirely, even when it's being played with the d20 CoC rulebook.

[2D8HP]

I've never played WotC 3.x D&D, but I've read the rules, and I've played a fair bit of TSR D&D and CoC and othet BRP games (rules based on Choasiums RuneQuest), and for me the reason not to use D20 is that "D100" is just so easy and intuitive, but D20 is not. Maybe if I had more experience with D20 I'd feel otherwise, but on the surface it just looks too complex (not that AD&D was all that easy, but it's more familiar to me).

RuneQuest rules based games just seem simpler to me than most versions of D&D besides TSR "Basic"/"Classic".

[Feantar]

I've always kinda hated that fact about the Old Ones and the Lady. It's a philosophical matter for me: I generally object to the idea that the correct response to the unknown is to revel/quake before it and call it unknowable.

It is certainly unknown.
It may be beyond the comprehension of the pathetic meat-and-water abacus that is the current human brain.

But nothing is unknowable. The fact that our frail human forms and mind simply means that we need to design something better. It can be a generational project.



That said, I recognize that that element I object to is one of the major elements that sells people on the idea of both the Lady and the Cthulhu mythos. These are elements that are intended to make you feel small.

And D20 doesn't do small well: any class and level system has problems with such a thing, and D20 makes it especially pronounced because of how leveling scales.

I would tend to agree with you, but for a more pop-sci interpretation; knowing something is essentially a computation. The unknowable cannot be known because of the lack of infinite time. As in, it would take infinite time (or, more time than all thinking beings will ever have combined plus any artificial computational devices) to compute it's nature.

However, there's an easier way to see this. The Lady of Pain (and similar) shouldn't have stats because, to actually touch them, you'd need to be at the apex of the beings that have stats (in D&D, an Over-deity, or at the very least a Greater Deity). And if so, d20 no longer applies. D20 has the climbing power approach (as in, quantitative increase - moar powah), and at the point you reach these beings, each step is a qualitative increase... I'm not sure I'm explaining this well... Change systems at that point, shift to Nobilis(or Exalted, but I'd prefer Nobilis for a more philosophical bent), and then they can very well have stats.

[Mordaedil]

I've never played WotC 3.x D&D, but I've read the rules, and I've played a fair bit of TSR D&D and CoC and othet BRP games (rules based on Choasiums RuneQuest), and for me the reason not to use D20 is that "D100" is just so easy and intuitive, but D20 is not. Maybe if I had more experience with D20 I'd feel otherwise, but on the surface it just looks too complex (not that AD&D was all that easy, but it's more familiar to me).

RuneQuest rules based games just seem simpler to me than most versions of D&D besides TSR "Basic"/"Classic".

D20 is the same as a d100, but in 5% increments.

[Graypairofsocks]

It looks like your knowledge of RPG industry is rather limited
Yes, we have such games as Boot Hill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Hill_(role-playing_game)) and Gangbusters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangbusters_(role-playing_game)).
But we also have Anima (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_(series)), Exalted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exalted), Mutants & Masterminds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutants_%26_Masterminds), and Nobilis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobilis).

Characters in a Storyteller system, like Exalted, tend to be rather squishy though.

[Hecuba]

I would tend to agree with you, but for a more pop-sci interpretation; knowing something is essentially a computation. The unknowable cannot be known because of the lack of infinite time. As in, it would take infinite time (or, more time than all thinking beings will ever have combined plus any artificial computational devices) to compute it's nature.

A fair point on the face of it: for Turing-based computation, you do indeed run up against Bremermann's limit. There is, however, some indication that quantum memory may sidestep that issue, at least for a much longer time than Turing-based computation.

More fundamentally, however, a system that would take infinite time to understand must be infinite itself. If existence can contain infinites, there is no reason we can't have infinite time to sort it out (if we can stick around indefinitely in some manner). If existence cannot, they we're not actually describing something infinite, but rather something like a black hole that tends towards infinity. And quite pointedly, it is theoritically possible to use a black hole as a mindbogglingly powerful computer - one that operates exactly at the Bekenstein bound for its mass.


However, there's an easier way to see this. The Lady of Pain (and similar) shouldn't have stats because, to actually touch them, you'd need to be at the apex of the beings that have stats (in D&D, an Over-deity, or at the very least a Greater Deity). And if so, d20 no longer applies. D20 has the climbing power approach (as in, quantitative increase - moar powah), and at the point you reach these beings, each step is a qualitative increase... I'm not sure I'm explaining this well... Change systems at that point, shift to Nobilis(or Exalted, but I'd prefer Nobilis for a more philosophical bent), and then they can very well have stats.

I'm fine with saying that the Lady of Pain isn't worth stating because the characters can't meaningfully interact with her. The same goes for a greater deity. This is effectively saying that those beings are unknowns that the players do not have the tools to meaningfully investigate. But unknown is different than inherently unknowable.

[Eldan]

Of course the Lady technically has stats. She can interact with things, those interactions can be quantified. We know she has done a few pretty powerful things, like barring gates to deities and probably killing one who was pretty powerful even among gods. We don't know much else about her.

The thing is, if the players try to fight her, something has gone wrong. She preferably shouldn't show up in campaigns at all, except maybe rarely as a background event. Like, say, a solar eclipse. Players don't fight the eclipse. But it may be relevant to a campaign because the solar eclipse makes some kind of ritual possible.

[Kurald Galain]

Of course the Lady technically has stats. She can interact with things, those interactions can be quantified.

The catch is that these interactions establish a lower bound on her abilities, whereas her stats would establish an upper bound. As designed, she has the former but not the latter. WOTC understands this very well, with the given stats for Antediluvians (in any book except the last), and for Caine himself (in the last book).

The official stats for Caine being "YOU LOSE".

[Tainted_Scholar]

Just going to point out that the only reason the Higher-end entities in D20 CoC have stats is so you can use them in D&D. You're not going to be fighting them in CoC.

[ShurikVch]

Which is another weakness. There's no reason to use a class based system if you're only going to have one class, and an investigator class in Call of Cthulhu is roughly equivalent to a combatant class in D&D - there's way more archetypes than that in the source material, and even given CoC's focus on investigators there's still room for more than one type.3rd-party books have a bit more classes/PrCs
Investigator itself have two variants (Offence Option and Defence Option) and customized a bit with Profession Template


I'm not saying that D&D is at the very topReally?
You said:
Take magic out and D&D characters are still ridiculously powerful by the standards of the overall RPG industryI dunno how's it for you, but for me it sounded exactly like "at the very top"


merely that the characters are incredibly powerful by a broader standard.And what's this "broader standard"? :smallconfused: IRL?
WFRP have it's "Naked Dwarf Syndrome". What's CoC d20 have?



Characters in a Storyteller system, like Exalted, tend to be rather squishy though.Perfect Defenses...



Just going to point out that the only reason the Higher-end entities in D20 CoC have stats is so you can use them in D&D. You're not going to be fighting them in CoC.The game have spells Call Deity and Dismiss Deity
The "Massa Di Requiem Per Shuggay" book always contain one and only one spell - Call Azathoth.

[Tainted_Scholar]

The game have spells Call Deity and Dismiss Deity
The "Massa Di Requiem Per Shuggay" book always contain one and only one spell - Call Azathoth.

Yeah, and that's for crazy cultist that are trying to end the world. If old Azy is summoned, your campaign is over, you lose. The book outright states that the Stats for the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods is intended for use in D&D not CoC, in fact they gave them D&D stat blocks rather than CoC ones. You have to adapt their stats to even use them in CoC.

[Thurbane]

Just going to point out that the only reason the Higher-end entities in D20 CoC have stats is so you can use them in D&D. You're not going to be fighting them in CoC.

This is also true, and a large part of why I like CoC d20.

[atemu1234]

I think that it's a failure to mesh the differences between the goals of the systems. Call of Cthulhu is supposed to make you feel like you're actually in a Lovecraft story - where insanity and horrible death are the GOOD endings. D20 was meant first and foremost for third edition dungeons and dragons - games where the accumulation of power meant that even gods weren't suitable challenges past a certain point, if things went right.

You can't really mesh the two without them clashing; in Lovecraft there is a blend of the surreal and realism that cannot be divorced from the system it's represented in, at least without damaging its goals; namely, that there are some things that one cannot fight, let alone win, against. That's the moral of Lovecraft.

The moral of D&D is that no matter the odds, you CAN succeed, even if your goals are near-impossible. That it's possible, with enough time and effort, to destroy worlds, kill gods, and save everyone. It's an inherent clash between pessimism and optimism, a world where everyone must die and everyone can be saved.

[Ashtagon]

I think that it's a failure to mesh the differences between the goals of the systems. Call of Cthulhu is supposed to make you feel like you're actually in a Lovecraft story - where insanity and horrible death are the GOOD endings. D20 was meant first and foremost for third edition dungeons and dragons - games where the accumulation of power meant that even gods weren't suitable challenges past a certain point, if things went right.

You can't really mesh the two without them clashing; in Lovecraft there is a blend of the surreal and realism that cannot be divorced from the system it's represented in, at least without damaging its goals; namely, that there are some things that one cannot fight, let alone win, against. That's the moral of Lovecraft.

The moral of D&D is that no matter the odds, you CAN succeed, even if your goals are near-impossible. That it's possible, with enough time and effort, to destroy worlds, kill gods, and save everyone. It's an inherent clash between pessimism and optimism, a world where everyone must die and everyone can be saved.

This. All of it.

[Eldan]

Death and Insanity are the Good endings in a Chaosium-like Lovecraft RPG. In the actual Lovecraft stories, quite a few protagonists get away with their lives intact, some even quite sane. There's more than one who burns down whatever monstrosity he encounters, or otherwise defeats it.

[Zanos]

The thing is, if the players try to fight her, something has gone wrong. She preferably shouldn't show up in campaigns at all, except maybe rarely as a background event. Like, say, a solar eclipse. Players don't fight the eclipse. But it may be relevant to a campaign because the solar eclipse makes some kind of ritual possible.
Nonsense. They just obliterate whatever was moving in front of the sun.

I don't really think D&D is a good system or setting for creatures that are "beyond" "mere mortals". The fact is that sufficiently powerful characters can trivially hop planes, cover infinite distance instantaneously, reveal the secrets of the multiverse, fight infinite armies, bind angels and demons to their will, obliterate the free will of others, rewrite people's minds, resurrect the dead, extend their lives indefinitely, slay the living with a thought and a word, create new species from nothing, and build new planes from scratch. Sufficiently powerful "mortals" have powers that we would not have a problem worshipping as gods if they existed IRL.

The only reason LoP exists is because she's a necessary conceit for Sigil to exist. Something has to keep deities from mucking about in the city.

That there are creatures beyond them "just because" is extremely silly. And, by extension, d20 is kind of a bad system for creatures that need that to work, like with the Cthulhu Mythos. People complained that Pathfinder gave Cthulhu stats, but it made sense to me. Cthulhu is horrific to 3rd level commoners and experts. Not the beings described above.


I think that it's a failure to mesh the differences between the goals of the systems. Call of Cthulhu is supposed to make you feel like you're actually in a Lovecraft story - where insanity and horrible death are the GOOD endings.
You could always swallow a bullet at the very beginning. Probably the best outcome in a CoC game.

[Eldan]

I'm not saying that players can't fight the eclipse. They probably can, in DnD. What I meant is more that if in a classical sword and sorcery fantasy campaign players respond to "There's a dark ritual on top of the temple of doom to awaken the dread demon lord Bloodfang during the eclipse" with "We blow up the moon", it's become a different kind of game than what was originally intended and the same holds for Planescape if players fight the Lady. Ideally, they wouldn't get the idea to try that without a good reason.

[Nifft]

Nonsense. They just obliterate whatever was moving in front of the sun.

Moon Paladin: "We're not obliterating the moon."

Epic Illusionist: "How about we turn it invisible for a while?"

... and that's how we pretended to steal the moon, until the Mind Flayers just gave up.

I'd play the heck out of that game.

[ShurikVch]

People, apparently, forgetting: D&D already have it's own horror game - Ravenloft!

So, how's it - d20 work just fine for Ravenloft, but not for CoC?

Or, maybe, Ravenloft players still preferring to use 2E books, and d20 supplements are collecting dust on shelves?

[Knaight]

Really?
You said:I dunno how's it for you, but for me it sounded exactly like "at the very top"

And what's this "broader standard"? :smallconfused: IRL?
WFRP have it's "Naked Dwarf Syndrome". What's CoC d20 have?


Lets say for the sake of argument there are 10,000 RPGs with at least some prescence (more than just a .pdf file nobody ever looks at buried on someone's Google Doc account). The broader standard is what those RPGs look like as a whole, particularly more towards the middle of whatever range is being looked at.

In this particular case, that's character power. Ordered from least to most character power you get a middle range that goes from nominally typical people who benefit from action movie logic to pulp heroes powerful by pulp standards. Genuinely average or below average human characters are towards the low end, and the extreme low end tends to be made up of small woodland creatures anthropomorphized to various degrees. D&D is at the extreme high end.

Again, there's a difference between "extreme high end" and "absolute most powerful characters. The top 1% on any given scale is still a hundred games, and something in that hundredth spot still has ridiculously powerful characters regardless of what exactly is in the 99 spots above it. D&D is in that position, with D&D characters vastly more powerful than those in the vast majority of games, if still not at Exalted/Mythender levels, let alone Nobilis. There's nothing wrong with this design choice, but it doesn't fit Cthulhu - and it still doesn't fit Cthulhu if you trim away some of the more egregious features and are left with characters all the way down in the top 3% or so of games ordered by character power.

Obviously the specific numbers here are used for example purposes only. It's the idea behind the numbers that stands, and it's the idea behind the numbers that makes D20 Cthulhu really not work for people with a background made mostly out of non-D20 games. Among other things.


People, apparently, forgetting: D&D already have it's own horror game - Ravenloft!

So, how's it - d20 work just fine for Ravenloft, but not for CoC?
Ravenloft isn't the same genre of horror, and even then it's fighting against the system in a lot of ways.

[Kurald Galain]

People, apparently, forgetting: D&D already have it's own horror game - Ravenloft!

So, how's it - d20 work just fine for Ravenloft, but not for CoC?

The fact that people are forgetting about Ravenloft suggests that d20 doesn't work that well for that setting, either :smallbiggrin:

WOTC has barely done anything with this setting for about fifteen years now, so it can't be that popular. 3E Ravenloft was eventually taken over by Whitewolf; 4E Ravenloft got quietly cancelled; and 5E Ravenloft exists of a single adventure module based on the thirty-year-old original, not on the campaign setting. Frankly, like most traditional D&D settings other than the Realms, it's primarily 2E material and has largely been abandoned since.

[Nifft]

Ravenloft is specifically gothic horror.

That's cool when you want it, but it's not a generic horror setting.

There's plenty of room for other types of horror in D&D.

[Ashtagon]

d20 works great for what gurps calls the "monster hunters" variety of horror, exemplified by Buffy and certain settings within d20 Modern. For Gothic horror, it takes some tweaking; White Wolf had to deliberately nerf a lot of the spells and class features in the 3e iteration of the setting, and even then added an option to make it a place to visit for one-off adventures rather than the main site of a campaign. For Lovecraftian horror, I maintain it doesn't really work, because the paradigm of zero-to-hero actively breaks genre conventions.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Please remember that D20 Cthulhu is not D&D.

[atemu1234]

Please remember that D20 Cthulhu is not D&D.

Yes, but the D20 system was primarily designed for D&D 3e, which is why everyone keeps bringing it up. A lot of the baggage from 3e went with, and it was never really 'fixed'.

[Ashtagon]

Any redo of a d20 Cthulhu book really should address the different campaign settings that make use of features of the Lovecraft mythos, and proposed rules adaptations that address the different assumptions built into each such campaign. At a minimum, it should cover conventional D&D integration, monster hunter campaigns (for this purpose, Cthulhu mythos is real, but humanity approaches it with a scientific and optimistic attitude), and the more traditional Lovecraftian "humanity is at most irrelevant to the gods' plans" viewpoint.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Yes, but the D20 system was primarily designed for D&D 3e, which is why everyone keeps bringing it up. A lot of the baggage from 3e went with, and it was never really 'fixed'.

Yes, but they're completely different games.

[Nifft]

Yes, but they're completely different games.

Well, the thread is about why people hate D20 Cthulhu.

It's a bit much to expect that hate would have been founded on rational thought.

[Bohandas]

D20 seems to be more about collection of power than deeper understanding. D20 characters are about being epic - shrugging off damage that would level buildings, and dealing much the same.

It's hard to translate the essential 'core' of chaosium's system to D20.

All they need to do is not add hit dice upon leveling up. Tying everythig to hit dice and hit dice to everything is the greatest and most glaring failing of the d20 system, even in its native heroic fantasy genre (why should a hill giant get more skill ranks simply because it's difficult to kill!? Somebody explain that!)

[Bohandas]

1. Great Old Ones have stats

It should be noted that Randolph Carter canonically beat Nyarlathotep's bluff check at the end of Dream Quest.

[Kurald Galain]

It should be noted that Randolph Carter canonically beat Nyarlathotep's bluff check at the end of Dream Quest.

Nyarly isn't a Great Old One. The distinction is kind of important.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Nyarly isn't a Great Old One. The distinction is kind of important.

You're right, he's way stronger.:smallannoyed:

[Ashtagon]

It should be noted that Randolph Carter canonically beat Nyarlathotep's bluff check at the end of Dream Quest.

Did he? Or did Nyarly just allow himself to be seen through for his own purposes?

[Tainted_Scholar]

Did he? Or did Nyarly just allow himself to be seen through for his own purposes?

From a scientific and legal standpoint, unless there is evidence to support the idea that Nyarly did it on purpose there is no reason to assume that such a hypothesis is true.

[Ashtagon]

From a scientific and legal standpoint, unless there is evidence to support the idea that Nyarly did it on purpose there is no reason to assume that such a hypothesis is true.

And from a Lovecraftian mythos point of view, Nyarly is neither scientific nor cares for puny human ideas of legality.

Seriously. The idea that human concepts of science are woefully inadequate to explain anything beyond our own tiny island of comprehension is one of the core conceits of the Lovecraft mythos.

[Bohandas]

It's also noteworthy that while Cthulhu canonically can be temporarily knocked out. In the game's namesake story he's rammed by a ship, which splatters his body all over, forcing him to slowly re-form like the Terminator and giving the ship time to get away.

[Zanos]

I'm fairly certain Cthulhu did not awaken fully in the original story because the stars were not right, not because he gets bonked by a ship.

[Knaight]

Yes, but they're completely different games.

The comparison was introduced with an argument to the effect of "look how much less powerful than D&D characters these characters are". That D&D characters are stupidly powerful is the point, because it makes that initial argument basically meaningless.

They're also completely different games that have a lot of similarities due to having the same engine. It's much the same way that Nemesis and REIGN are different games, or Holllow Earth Expedition and Desolation are different games, or Terra Incognita and Deyrini Realms are different games. Although in those example cases at least the games all work well, where in this case d20 Cthulhu was simply a bad idea. When your class based game has one class it's maybe time to realize it shouldn't be class based.

[atemu1234]

I'm fairly certain Cthulhu did not awaken fully in the original story because the stars were not right, not because he gets bonked by a ship.

That's not as funny though.
Now I know why the Cthulhu stats in Pathfinder are bad! They don't have the following:

Vulnerability to Ships (Ex):
Getting hit by a large aquatic vehicle makes Cthulhu very tired.

[Nifft]

When your class based game has one class it's maybe time to realize it shouldn't be class based.

Let's fix that, using d20 Modern as an example.

Strong Investigator
Defiant Smite (Ex): Starting at level one, once per day when you're about to die or go irrevocably insane, you can make a melee attack as a free action. This attack automatically misses. After the attack is resolved, you die and/or go irrevocably insane as normal.

Swift Investigator
Heroic Sprint (Ex): Starting at level one, once per day when you're about to die or go irrevocably insane, you can move your speed as a free action. After the movement is complete, you die and/or go irrevocably insane as normal.

Determined Investigator
Interminable Vitality (Ex): Starting at level one, once per day when you're about to die, you can choose to not die and instead merely go irrevocably insane.

Smart Investigator
Untouchable Intellect (Ex): Starting at level one, once per day when you're about to go irrevocably insane, you can choose to not go insane and die instead.

Devoted Investigator
Enduring Wisdom (Ex): Starting at level one, once per day when you're about to die or go irrevocably insane, you can communicate one wise or pithy sentence as a free action. After the communication is resolved, you die and/or go irrevocably insane as normal.

Charismatic Investigator
Unquenchable Wit (Ex): Starting at level one, once per day when you're about to die or go irrevocably insane, you can communicate one clever or witty sentence as a free action. After the communication is resolved, you die and/or go irrevocably insane as normal.


There we go.

I fixed d20 Cthulhu.

[Kurald Galain]

When your class based game has one class it's maybe time to realize it shouldn't be class based.

Precisely.

Since someone brought up d20 Modern (seriously, does anyone even play this at all?), when you have six classes that directly correspond to "this ability score is highest", it's time to realize that shouldn't be class-based either.

[Ashtagon]

Precisely.

Since someone brought up d20 Modern (seriously, does anyone even play this at all?), when you have six classes that directly correspond to "this ability score is highest", it's time to realize that shouldn't be class-based either.

By that logic, classic D&D shouldn't have been class-based either, seeing as fighter/thief/cleric/wizard basically meant max your Str/Dex/Wis/Int.

The class mechanic isnm't the problem for Cthulhu; it's the level mechanic that is the problem.

[Luccan]

Precisely.

Since someone brought up d20 Modern (seriously, does anyone even play this at all?), when you have six classes that directly correspond to "this ability score is highest", it's time to realize that shouldn't be class-based either.

That's how the best (as in most powerful) 3.5 classes work...

Edit: More to the point d20 Modern uses many of the concepts of the d20 and 3.X system (advanced/prestige classes, the exact same magic system, etc.), more so than than it sounds like d20 Cthulhu does. Also, I happen to like d20 Modern, but I'll admit it doesn't seem as popular...

[Kurald Galain]

By that logic, classic D&D shouldn't have been class-based either, seeing as fighter/thief/cleric/wizard basically meant max your Str/Dex/Wis/Int.

Did you catch the difference between "classes have a favorite ability score (or maybe two)" and "every ability score maps one-on-one to precisely one class"?

[Luccan]

Did you catch the difference between "classes have a favorite ability score (or maybe two)" and "every ability score maps one-on-one to precisely one class"?

I fail to see why that precludes a class system. The class system in Modern still affects skill points, hp, save bonuses, and BAB (not to mention actual class features). In fact, you could probably build a most, if not all, of the base classes with your "primary" ability score as your second highest. You might want to do that because Strong Heroes get the best BAB, but you want to be a gunslinger, so you're Dex is higher than your strength, for example.

[Ashtagon]

Did you catch the difference between "classes have a favorite ability score (or maybe two)" and "every ability score maps one-on-one to precisely one class"?

Did you know that in classic D&D, except for encumbrance (but no one used those rules anyway) and AC (but most DMs in the day would direct AC-based attacks against high-AC PCs which is to say fighters), no character had any reason to invest in Str/Dex/Int/Wis ever unless it was their classs's ability score?

[Kurald Galain]

Did you know that in classic D&D, except for encumbrance (but no one used those rules anyway) and AC (but most DMs in the day would direct AC-based attacks against high-AC PCs which is to say fighters), no character had any reason to invest in Str/Dex/Int/Wis ever unless it was their classs's ability score?

Wow, it's been ages since I played that. But yes, that's true in early editions. In 2E and especially 3E, it gets more diverse than that, and you can make e.g. a dex-fighter with just average str, or a str-cleric that focuses on melee instead of save DCs. And of course they have multiple classes that prioritize the same ability score (e.g. fighter/pally/barb on str) and do different things with it.

Point is, if you've got six ability scores and exactly six classes whose characterization is "this ability is highest", then at that point the class structure doesn't add anything any more.

[Knaight]

By that logic, classic D&D shouldn't have been class-based either, seeing as fighter/thief/cleric/wizard basically meant max your Str/Dex/Wis/Int.

The class mechanic isnm't the problem for Cthulhu; it's the level mechanic that is the problem.

Fighter/Thief/Cleric/Wizard is a set of existing fantasy archetypes (although the lines between them have a tendency to get blurry, particularly in terms of the Fighter/Thief boundary and the Cleric/Wizard boundary). "[Attribute] Hero" is something else entirely.

Coming back to d20 Cthulhu, "Investigator" can easily be split in a way other than "[Attribute] Investigator". You've got your journalists, your forensic scientists (albeit in a primitive form), your occult researchers, your private eyes, so on and so forth. There's material to make classes out of, and up until this thread I was under the impression that "Put classes in a class based system" was a pretty standard design principle. Not doing so is indicative of bad design.

With that said, I'd agree that it's the level system (and particularly certain implementations around it) that really doesn't fit in a fundamental way. A good Cthulhu game could be made in a class system that doesn't have levels. Trying to make levels without classes work is a bit sketchier.

[Luccan]

Wow, it's been ages since I played that. But yes, that's true in early editions. In 2E and especially 3E, it gets more diverse than that, and you can make e.g. a dex-fighter with just average str, or a str-cleric that focuses on melee instead of save DCs. And of course they have multiple classes that prioritize the same ability score (e.g. fighter/pally/barb on str) and do different things with it.

Point is, if you've got six ability scores and exactly six classes whose characterization is "this ability is highest", then at that point the class structure doesn't add anything any more.

I'd like to point out that each class* has at least one talent tree that doesn't even suggest you need your "class stat" to be your highest stat. Also, you can still multiclass (at which point your second class will almost certainly not have your highest stat) and get along just fine. In fact, several advance and prestige classes recommend trying to enter with certain class combinations, rather than just a single class.

Edit: *I was wrong, every class except charismatic heroes have this. Most talent trees apply your class level to other checks or give you a benefit unrelated to any stats (like increased movement speed). Even those that do rely on stats, however, still give you benefit so long as you have a bonus. Heck, one of the tough hero ones gives your a benefit for having a Constitution score at all.

[Knaight]

I'd like to point out that each class* has at least one talent tree that doesn't even suggest you need your "class stat" to be your highest stat. Also, you can still multiclass (at which point your second class will almost certainly not have your highest stat) and get along just fine. In fact, several advance and prestige classes recommend trying to enter with certain class combinations, rather than just a single class.

d20 Modern is built on heavy multiclassing - and to a large extent this makes the whole class system just a needlessly convoluted way of presenting level up options. There's nothing accomplished by the class structure that isn't also accomplished by a bunch of talent trees plus a set of +level packages you pick per level. That's not even slightly true for a class system that ties classes to actual archetypes and allows those specific archetypes to be built up with interesting levels of complexity without weighing down the system nearly as much as it otherwise would.

[ShurikVch]

Yeah, and that's for crazy cultist that are trying to end the world. If old Azy is summoned, your campaign is over, you lose.It's certainly true, and even Hastur may be too much for CoC people
But what if crazy cultists NPCs would successfully cast Call Cthugha? Is it still too much?

The book outright states that the Stats for the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods is intended for use in D&D not CoC, in fact they gave them D&D stat blocks rather than CoC ones. You have to adapt their stats to even use them in CoC.It's funny, because they're lacking the "Spells per day" info
It's unacceptable for D&D character, but completely OK in CoC - because no such mechanics (at least, in the Core)



I'm pretty confident that almost all of them can handle the character from Everyone is John, let alone Mouseguard or Bunnies & Burrows characters.I'm pretty sure characters in EiJ are untouchable (because how you will affect a "voice in the head"?), and even critters from B&B could cost some Sanity to CoC characters



All they need to do is not add hit dice upon leveling up.And what's so bad about the extra HD?
Saves?
Feats? Don't make me laugh! It's all mostly a Core nonmagical feats. (And most of Psychic Feats are have prohibitive Sanity cost)
Skills? OK (kinda). While Diplomacy is still there, Naberius - certainly isn't. Is it complain from actual game experience, or just a knee-jerk reflex?
Hit points? In Chaosium's CoC, certain characters could start the game with 43 hp (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/files/pdf/coc1920sheet1.pdf); for d20 - it's (excluding possible Con bonus and Toughness feat) roughly equal to 10th level
BAB?
What?!

(why should a hill giant get more skill ranks simply because it's difficult to kill!? Somebody explain that!)Well, every HD is equal to certain amount of XP - thus Hill Giants are experienced that much... :smallamused:
Also, "more skill ranks" than who? (For example: Quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit) is 8 HD, 5 CR, and 3 size categories less than Hill Giant, but have much more skill ranks)

[VisitingDaGulag]

Maybe its easier to import CoC into D&D than D&D into CoC.

The Sanity Handbook over at MinMaxForum made it look fairly easy for D&D to eat CoC's rules.

[Bohandas]

And what's so bad about the extra HD?
Saves?
Feats? Don't make me laugh! It's all mostly a Core nonmagical feats. (And most of Psychic Feats are have prohibitive Sanity cost)
Skills? OK (kinda). While Diplomacy is still there, Naberius - certainly isn't. Is it complain from actual game experience, or just a knee-jerk reflex?
Hit points? In Chaosium's CoC, certain characters could start the game with 43 hp (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/files/pdf/coc1920sheet1.pdf); for d20 - it's (excluding possible Con bonus and Toughness feat) roughly equal to 10th level
BAB?
What?!


Hitpoints. And to a lesser extent save bonuses. They'd still level up and gain skills, feats, etc but they wouldn't gain hitdice when leveling up.



Well, every HD is equal to certain amount of XP - thus Hill Giants are experienced that much... :smallamused:

Also, "more skill ranks" than who? (For example: Quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit) is 8 HD, 5 CR, and 3 size categories less than Hill Giant, but have much more skill ranks)

more skill points, and more egregiously a much higher skill rank cap, than a lot of second level humanoid NPCs (and I'm not saying that they shouldn;t have bonuses to certain things, but they should be just that, bonuses, not skill ranks that can be used to qualift for classes and feats and that are for some reason tied to intelligence despite representing innate aptitudes)

[ShurikVch]

Hitpoints.:smallconfused:
Chaosium.
43 hp at the start.
In d20, it's about equal to 10th level without any bonus, or ~ 5th level - in case of optimized build
Your point?

(Seriously, I can get it if you would complain about the +1d6/level of Sanity, but hit points... :smallsigh:)



more skill points, and more egregiously a much higher skill rank cap, than a lot of second level humanoid NPCsFirstly - why the heck is "second level"? Hill Giant is CR 7!
And secondly - Hill Giant have 12 skill points; 1st-level Human Rogue gets the same amount

(and I'm not saying that they shouldn;t have bonuses to certain things, but they should be just that, bonuses, not skill ranks that can be used to qualift for classes and featsQualify for what? :smallconfused:
I checked it, and, at the first glance - Hill Giant doesn't qualify to anything
(Almost qualified to Hordebreaker, but lack of Great Cleave and ranks in Knowledge:Local prevented it)

Also, to qualify for something, our Hill Giant should firstly get 12000 XP (or 16000 - if PC); how much of Hill Giants with class levels you know in D&D?


and that are for some reason tied to intelligence despite representing innate aptitudes)Actually, for Hill Giant - it's tied to number of HD: Hill Giants are have Int penalty - thus, without of "1 skill point/HD minimum" rule, wouldn't get any skill points at all

[Bohandas]

The point is that class levels shouldn't be treated like monster hit dice and monster hit dice shouldn't be treated like class levels, and it IS tied to INT even if for this creature in particular results in a penalty rather than a bonus. The point is that despite the asinine and overly formulaic way that the system was designed there's no sensible reason why hit dice should be taken into account at all when determining monster skills; their skills should be determined entirely by the creature's concept requires it to be able to do and their hit dice should be determined solely by how much damage we want it to be able to absorb before it dies and there's no sensible reason why the two stats should intersect in any way as they represent entirely different wholly unrelated things in-game. It's immersion breaking. It's ok for player character class levels because those are supposed to represent mythically powerful individuals, it's not ok for a 12 hd giant who's every bit as inexperienced, mediocre, and generic as a first level humanoid commoner. The 12 hd hill giant and the first level human commoner are both the base creature with no special experience.

EDIT:

Or let's put it this way, a human rogue with maximum intelligence and just starting out gets 48 skill points and can't put more than 4 of them into any one skill. A Hill Giant with maximum inyelligence and just starting out gets 60 skill points and can dump fifteen of them straightaway into spot (or listen or jump or climb)

[ShurikVch]

The 12 hd hill giant and the first level human commoner are both the base creature with no special experience.Aren't you confusing "unintelligent" for "unexpirienced"?
Hill Giant survived the childhood without being killed
So, while rather dim, "unexpirienced" he(/she?) isn't.

[Zanos]

Because a hill giant is CR 7, and not a starting character. Played as a PC, a hill giant would have a Savage Progression and start with 1 HD.

Even assuming otherwise, the Hill Giant only has Climb, Jump, Listen, and Spot as class skills, so it's not like it's actually good at anything roguish even with max intelligence.

[Telok]

Hit points? In Chaosium's CoC, certain characters could start the game with 43 hp (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/files/pdf/coc1920sheet1.pdf)

I'm away from my books but as I recall the actual rule for investigator HP in CoC is (CON+BOD)/2. Since constitution is 3d6 and body is 2d6+6 it averages a bit over 11 HP and maxxes out at 18. I don't know where you for 43 from.

Also, quasit in 3.5 are 3 HD and have 13 HP.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm away from my books but as I recall the actual rule for investigator HP in CoC is (CON+BOD)/2. Since constitution is 3d6 and body is 2d6+6 it averages a bit over 11 HP and maxxes out at 18. I don't know where you for 43 from.

That is correct.

[Knaight]

HP is also not something that can be compared directly between games that well. A ubiquity PC with 6 HP is much harder to kill than a GURPS PC with 20, because that's how damage scales. More meaningful metrics would involve comparing starting character HP to experienced character HP and starting character HP to starting character damage.

[ShurikVch]

I'm away from my books but as I recall the actual rule for investigator HP in CoC is (CON+BOD)/2. Since constitution is 3d6 and body is 2d6+6 it averages a bit over 11 HP and maxxes out at 18. I don't know where you for 43 from.Check the linked sheet - in the "Hit Points" frame numbers are go up to 43 (and no - it's not a monster's sheet, it's Investigator's Sheet)
Thus - either you don't know something about the character's generation, or hit points could to increase somehow during the game beyond the starting value


Also, quasit in 3.5 are 3 HD and have 13 HP.Yes. And..?
Quasit was mentioned as an example of low-level monster who have much more skill ranks than Hill Giant. Where, exactly, hit points came into picture? (If anything, you're proving my point - Quasit is 89 hp less, but still 12 skill ranks more than Hill Giant)

[Bohandas]

Because a hill giant is CR 7, and not a starting character. Played as a PC, a hill giant would have a Savage Progression and start with 1 HD.

Savage Species progressions are trite and immersion breaking and perhaps more than anything else illustrate the problem I'm talking about

[Zanos]

Savage Species progressions are trite and immersion breaking and perhaps more than anything else illustrate the problem I'm talking about
...That the adult form of some creatures is more powerful at baseline than the adult form of some other creatures?

You should take a look at dragon's if you want to be truly terrified.

[Ashtagon]

Savage Species progressions are trite and immersion breaking and perhaps more than anything else illustrate the problem I'm talking about

Also, Savage Species is pretty much the antithesis of Call of Cthulhu. I'm not sure it proves anything.

[Bohandas]

...That the adult form of some creatures is more powerful at baseline than the adult form of some other creatures?

That's my point (or at least part of my point about Savage Species). With Savage Species progressions this distinction doesn;t exist. In Savage Species the baseline adult form of every creature is a generic cr 1 creature, which is a monumentally stupid state of affairs.

EDIT:
My other point with Savage Species is that characters only gain skill points, BAB and save bonuses on the same levels where they gain hit dice; it demonstrates the way these things are all pointlessly bundled together, which there's no valid reason for; there's no valid reason for the game designers to have bundled skills, saves, BAB, and hit dice together (well, excelpt for hd and fortu=itude save progression).

EDIT:
And my larger point is that all D20 cthulhu would have to do to fix itself is f=remove this bundling and only grant investigators skill points and feats (and possibly, possibly saves and BAB, all on the slow progression) when leveling up. They wouldn't gain any hit dice upon leveling up and thus would remain fully vulnerable to being torn to shreds and eaten by ghouls or squished by enormous alien god-things.

[Zanos]

Pretty sure it says in SS that progressions aren't fully mature versions of those creatures.

[Telok]

Yes. And..?
Quasit was mentioned as an example of low-level monster who have much more skill ranks than Hill Giant. Where, exactly, hit points came into picture? (If anything, you're proving my point - Quasit is 89 hp less, but still 12 skill ranks more than Hill Giant)


Also, "more skill ranks" than who? (For example: Quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit) is 8 HD, 5 CR, and 3 size categories less than Hill Giant, but have much more skill ranks)

The quasit is in fact not 8 HD nor is it CR 5. It is 3 HD and CR 2 and it's skill ranks are based on it's outsider type with 8 per hit die and no intelligence penalty. The quaist may thus have a maximum of 6 ranks in any one skill. The hill giant has 2 skill points per HD by type and may have up to 15 ranks in a skill. Please do try to get these things right.

Chaosum CoC characters do not have 43 HP, they have (5d6+6)/2 which averages 11 to 12 and has a maximum value of 18. Ironically the only way to increase your HP in the game is to become a sumo wrestler, which still won't take you over 18 HP. In contrast a rapier or pistol will do 1d6 damage with a 1/5 chance per hit of doubling. If you take more than half of your current HP in damage in a single hit you have to make a CON check to remain conscious. A 12-gauge shotgun will do 4d6 damage per barrel at ranges of up to 30 feet and with the highest starting hit chance of any firearm. Double barrelled shotguns are a favourite of gnarly old farmers with something to hide. An axe will do 2d6 damage if I recall correctly.

[atemu1234]

Also, Savage Species is pretty much the antithesis of Call of Cthulhu. I'm not sure it proves anything.

Now I want to take Call of Cthulhu and mix it with stuff like BoEF and Complete Temptress, solely for the possibility of romancing Cthulhu.

[ShurikVch]

The quasit is in fact not 8 HD nor is it CR 5.And I never said he is.
I said "8 HD, 5 CR ... less than Hill Giant".
CR: 7-2=5
HD: 12-3=9
Slight mistyping aside (should be 9 HD), all is correct


The quaist may thus have a maximum of 6 ranks in any one skill. The hill giant has 2 skill points per HD by type and may have up to 15 ranks in a skill. Please do try to get these things right.And I got this right!
Hill Giant can't have "up to 15 ranks in a skill", because he doesn't have 15 skill ranks - merely 12 (Int penalty!), while Quasit have 24 (8x3).



Chaosum CoC characters do not have 43 HP, they have (5d6+6)/2 which averages 11 to 12 and has a maximum value of 18. Ironically the only way to increase your HP in the game is to become a sumo wrestler, which still won't take you over 18 HP.Than how you would explain numbers in those sheets?
19 (http://someben.com/coc5_half_sheet.png), 21 (http://www.therobotspajamas.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/CallofCthulhu_RPG-_charactersheet_1.jpg), 24 (https://cdn4.bigcommerce.com/s-9zhx02uo/product_images/uploaded_images/character-sheet-invictus-call-of-cthulhu-7th-ed.gif?t=1458189502), 27 (http://www.pertinentdetail.org/charsheets/CoCBlank-medium.gif), 37 (https://imgv2-1-f.scribdassets.com/img/document/168814458/original/3f6effe948/1508368516), and 43 (https://s4.mzstatic.com/r30/Purple4/v4/31/e5/f1/31e5f133-9534-3201-ecf0-fc27db3bcfd7/screen960x960.jpeg) hit points at maximum.
What's the point at inserting numbers which couldn't be achieved even in theory?

[Ashtagon]

What's the point at inserting numbers which couldn't be achieved even in theory?

I don't think WotC holds a copyright on poor proof-reading.

In any case, I suspect Chaosium's CoC dates from a time when rules were thought of more as guidelines for the GM than as laws that must be followed formulaically. If the GM wanted to use a character sheet to detail an NPC (or even a PC) and give that character more than 18 hp, it simply happened, without any need to hunt down an appropriate template or prestige class.

[Bohandas]

And I got this right!
Hill Giant can't have "up to 15 ranks in a skill", because he doesn't have 15 skill ranks - merely 12 (Int penalty!), while Quasit have 24 (8x3).

That's for a Hill Giant with all average scores. A hill giant has a -4 intelligence penalty (or a score weighted towards fives and sixes, depending on what method you use) which means that it could still have an intelligence score of up to 14, in which case they would get considerably more skill ranks.

Also, wouldn;t it be 15 baseline? Or do monster hd not eat up the standard 4x skillpoints at first level. I mean, I'd like for it not to, but I always got the impression that it did.

[Bohandas]

Now I want to take Call of Cthulhu and mix it with stuff like BoEF and Complete Temptress, solely for the possibility of romancing Cthulhu.

Don't forget NBoUCK

[ShurikVch]

That's for a Hill Giant with all average scores. A hill giant has a -4 intelligence penalty (or a score weighted towards fives and sixes, depending on what method you use) which means that it could still have an intelligence score of up to 14, in which case they would get considerably more skill ranks.And what if Quasit would be advanced to 6 HD?



Also, wouldn;t it be 15 baseline?According to SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#hillGiant):
Racial Skills: A hill giant’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 15 × (2 + Int modifier).Hill Giant's "Int modifier" is "-2"
Thus: 15 × (2 + -2) = 0



Or do monster hd not eat up the standard 4x skillpoints at first level. I mean, I'd like for it not to, but I always got the impression that it did.In the past, people on this forum told me "4x at 1st is only for PCs", but RAW is silent about it
Average Hill Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#hillGiant) have too little skill ranks anyway:
Skills: Climb +7, Jump +7, Listen +3, Spot +6+7 of Climb and Jump is just a Str bonus;
Listen + Spot got 9 ranks;
Where're the 3 rest?

All example characters (Almost) all of these contain build errors

[Eldan]

Now I want to take Call of Cthulhu and mix it with stuff like BoEF and Complete Temptress, solely for the possibility of romancing Cthulhu.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxScTbIUvoA

[ShurikVch]

Now I want to take Call of Cthulhu and mix it with stuff like BoEF and Complete Temptress, solely for the possibility of romancing Cthulhu.Did You Just Romance Cthulhu? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustRomanceCthulhu)


http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Did_You_Just_Romance_Cthulu_9226.jpg

[Thurbane]

http://cdn.edgecast.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/224480/header.jpg

[atemu1234]

Don't forget NBoUCK

Care to unravel that acronym?

[Bohandas]

Care to unravel that acronym?

interNet Book of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge aka The Complete Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. It was a free 3rd party fan made downloadable supplement similar to Book of Erotic Fantasy but less lame and free. There was a 2e version and a 3e version. The 2e version can be found on The guide creators' page (http://www.lysator.liu.se/~johol/netbooks/GuideCreator.html), among other places