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Strawberry Crea
2017-10-10, 03:53 PM
Hi guys,

I'm fairly new over here, and I did not seen a lot of drow related posts.

I'm willing and looking for players or DM who knows a lot about drow, and had even use it in their world-building, or campaign.
I'm a big fan, since I stumble in the Forgotten Realms setting, and had a friend who made me play one time, and I had run a drow. It was, really, really, funny actually. :P I had this whole "seeking to hide everywhere" and "need to hide everytime" that led to funny situations. Especially when critical/epic fails 1 came in.

Hoping to hear more from you guys!

:smallwink:

Strawberry Crea
2017-10-11, 03:15 PM
Well, really no one?:smallsigh:
87 views already. :smalleek:

Guizonde
2017-10-11, 03:22 PM
short answer: blame drizz't.

medium answer: the problem is not really with the drow, but with the players who either think a) it's "edgelord time" and play them badly, or b) people who are offended by the "dark" descriptor. i'm currently playing a half-drow in pf, who came from riddle-port. he's as close to alabaster as skin pigmentation allows. then again, pf is much more liberal with the looks of drow. they can go from bone-white complexion to ebony hair to almost-onyx skin and ghostly white hair. why make a half-drow? i didn't want the level adjustment and was looking for an excuse for my character to wear sunglasses.

long answer: i'm not sure i can rant about this right now based on my placid mood. i'll get around to it once the thread is fed, i'm sure. drow are fun so long as they're not played like the stereotypical edgy teenage fetish they too often are.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-11, 03:29 PM
My problem is, if you're not playing in that setting, why not have the DM or a player put a creative twist onto elements? If I am not in Faerun, I really don't want to see faerun-style drow all over the place without good reason.

Why sitck with old-fashioned drow when you can do your own thing with them?

Haldir
2017-10-11, 04:12 PM
I think most folk are "over it" when it comes to Drow nowadays.

I recently used them to fairly good effect as villians- condescending, demanding, full of ill intent while simultaneously blaise about the heroes murdering their allies.

For the first half of the extended adventure they pretended not to speak common simply to avoid having to speak to the party. The players were rather pissed when they learned they were being mocked later.

Guizonde
2017-10-11, 04:36 PM
I think most folk are "over it" when it comes to Drow nowadays.

I recently used them to fairly good effect as villians- condescending, demanding, full of ill intent while simultaneously blaise about the heroes murdering their allies.

For the first half of the extended adventure they pretended not to speak common simply to avoid having to speak to the party. The players were rather pissed when they learned they were being mocked later.

i thought that was par for the course for anything with pointy ears? i'm pretty sure there's an alternate racial trait for elves (all kind) called "elven supremacist" in pf that makes you lose "language (common)" but gain a boost to all things elven.

i just like to play my half-drow as "mostly human, sometimes sadistic, 100% maladjusted". it creates a jarring dissonance in an otherwise very innocent and straightforward group (medic cleric, repentant half-orc paladin, anime-wannabe monk...). that, and drow in riddle-port are pretty off the wall compared to dnd fluff in general. iirc, they don't mind allying with human natives of riddle-port when trouble brews (they sneer and take slaves, but meh, i played warhammer 40k. that's almost being on friendly terms by that setting's standards).

playing drow as "always evil" is kind of boring and grating. i see them more as "neutral douchecanoe" rather like the thalmor in skyrim. they have their agenda, they think they're superior, but even when they ask for help, they still belittle you. kinda like that edgelord lonely kid you sorta knew in high school. not brooding, just with a massive superiority complex because they had access to their parents' booze cabinet and you didn't.

Satinavian
2017-10-12, 05:24 AM
Well, really no one?
87 views already.

If i ever were to include Drow again in a campaign, i would take a lot of inspiration from http://www.drowtales.com/. I would even consider to make a full Drow campaign around that setting.

But you asked specifically for Forgotton Realms Drow and Drow experts. And i rarely played FG and certainly didn't read the Drizz't novels. So i originally didn't answer. I guess most of the other 86 viewers don't think of themself as "knowing a lot about Drow" in the context of Forgotton Realms either. That would basically make it mandatory to like Salvatores writing style and Drizz't enough to dig into that part of Drow-lore.

Metahuman1
2017-10-14, 03:00 AM
I recall reading a book, that I think was written with AD&D 2nd edition in mind as the worlds default state, called Daughter of the Drow. I, THINK, and I could be very wrong, it was the start of a series. I liked were it was going form the one book. Not anything too amazing, but it was a fun little yarn.


Between that and a Neverwinter Nights 1 Expansion Pack, I always wanted to do stuff with Eliastree and her followers. I liked the idea of a Deity that wasn't big on rules and likes all sorts of cool things, but also wanted her followers to try being good to other people and to put some value on life and freedom, and to NOT go Angsty Drizzit Clone.


I could be very down for playing some kind of Drow type in a Drow game centered around being followers of Eliastree going on cool adventures among other odd duck races perhaps, or with a setting tweak of "Eliastree's faith is well enough known that worshippers of it get noticeably less, if any, social discrimination on them for being her followers, cause, well, it's well known they are on the up and up and don't tolerate let alone encourage the crap the other Drow Deity's do.".

What I'm not interested in is a scheming backstabby evil stupid social climber game. Or being angst ridden rebels of brooding angsty anti-heroness.






If you get something going with that Eliastree idea, please, contact me, I'm likely very interested. Especially if the DM is up for dealing with the relevant mechanics instead of just saying "Low op, don't worry about it." or "Yeah, I like caster supremacy, none full casters are in for a bad time. And Tome of Battle is uber broken and banned but full wizard casting is A-OK!"

VoxRationis
2017-10-16, 01:30 AM
I haven't used them in any campaign yet, but they'll make a sort of cameo appearance in an upcoming dungeon. I've decided (both for one of my defunct settings and for this one) that drow have a very corporate-type society. The backstabbing behind a veneer of civility, the decadence, the complete disregard for human(oid) rights... Drow are just the suits from corporate HQ. Most of the upper-level ones are evil—they have to be ruthless to get there—but the lower-level ones are mostly just wage-slaves trying to get by in the world. They don't like their society any more than the PCs, but what are they gonna do?

Anonymouswizard
2017-10-16, 05:10 AM
was looking for an excuse for my character to wear sunglasses.

Best reason to play a drow ever.

I was once considering a female drow wizard as a PC, who intentionally bucked stereotypes. Most drow women wear little clothing? Most of those are a) nobles and b) don't travel, my ex-slave wears full trousers and a long sleeved shirt (plus a wide brimmed straw hat to hide from the sun). Most drow are evil backstabers, or chaotic good rebels? She was lawful neutral and though that if it wasn't for Lloth then drow would build a functional society. Most drow have weird fantasy like names? Well she does remember her drow name, but she's been going by Emily for the last decade. Most drow outside the homeland are rebels or warriors/spies? Emily's supposed to send details of surface life and interesting goods home, but her employer doesn't care about military stuff, he's a collector. I settled on drow to have a reason for the hat and the character built herself from there.

Also, I've in some ways come to view Tieflings as the new drow, in that they have a pre-written edgy backstory. But that's just due to how I treated them back when I found them, I find them much better now (when they're not being used for 'succubus' or 'edgelord').

VoxRationis
2017-10-16, 12:42 PM
I think most folk are "over it" when it comes to Drow nowadays.

I recently used them to fairly good effect as villians- condescending, demanding, full of ill intent while simultaneously blaise about the heroes murdering their allies.

For the first half of the extended adventure they pretended not to speak common simply to avoid having to speak to the party. The players were rather pissed when they learned they were being mocked later.

That's pretty funny. Why were the drow having these extended conversations around the PCs?

afroakuma
2017-10-16, 05:20 PM
I recently used them to fairly good effect as villians- condescending, demanding, full of ill intent while simultaneously blaise about the heroes murdering their allies.

For the first half of the extended adventure they pretended not to speak common simply to avoid having to speak to the party. The players were rather pissed when they learned they were being mocked later.

They're still great villains, really only amplified by how much supplementary material exists to flesh out their forces. Draegloths, yochlol, driders, choldriths, quth-marens, web golems, and many other fun critters exist to get in the way of PCs. As protagonists... I mean, an evil party could make use of one, sure, but I sympathize with those burnt out on "heroic drow."

Guizonde
2017-10-16, 11:25 PM
Best reason to play a drow ever.


thank you. i love the little details that make the dm's life exponentially harder to have a straight face in a serious campaign. i am a little troll like that.


I haven't used them in any campaign yet, but they'll make a sort of cameo appearance in an upcoming dungeon. I've decided (both for one of my defunct settings and for this one) that drow have a very corporate-type society. The backstabbing behind a veneer of civility, the decadence, the complete disregard for human(oid) rights... Drow are just the suits from corporate HQ. Most of the upper-level ones are evil—they have to be ruthless to get there—but the lower-level ones are mostly just wage-slaves trying to get by in the world. They don't like their society any more than the PCs, but what are they gonna do?

an entire society of suits? now that's evil. i love it!

Lord Raziere
2017-10-16, 11:40 PM
Best reason to play a drow ever.


Heh. good. I remember one time on the forums where I expressed that I would simply have a drow wear sunglasses because it was logical to do so, and the person arguing against it was so adamant about the sunglasses being this Serious Thing and that I shouldn't have it or have to pay for it dearly in some manner and its just like "dude, its just sunglasses, let it go"

I think the best idea I've ever had for a Drow was an OOTS style parody of one where a drow guy says they want to be good thinking they're rebelling and the matriarch is happy for them passing the test and that the entire Drow society is just a false act to make edgelord drow PC's, who then get handed 100 gold and pointed to Drizz't Do'urden store where they get green clothes, scimitars and a cat, so of course thats all they have there, and of course all the good cats are gone so he is stuck with some cute house cat, he is grumpy because everyone thinks he wants to be Drizz't just because he wants to be good and his struggle is in fact trying to be his own moral hero without being a Drizz't clone, trying to get out of his shadow.

VoxRationis
2017-10-17, 01:12 AM
an entire society of suits? now that's evil. i love it!

Why, thank you. The setting I fleshed them out fully in also bucked the trend of having the dark elves inexplicably be a more vigorous and powerful society than the other elves. Millennia of unfettered industry and capitalism were catching up with them, and their society likely only had a generation left before it collapsed. Pollution had rendered them nearly sterile and they were starting to run out of both people and resources.

gkathellar
2017-10-17, 03:31 AM
I mean on the one hand, I love drow as villains, if only because a lot of the material about them is so bat-guano crazy in the best way possible. Lolth is also my favorite god in D&D, so you know, there's that.

On the other hand, drow are ... problematic is too generous a word. They embody the Matriarchy In Name Only trope, and while I love the Lolth-centric explanation for that (Lolth's favorite joke is drow suffering), it's still a justification for something that's pretty troubling. Then there are the unfortunate implications of the evil elves who live in caves being black-skinned (despite this making absolutely no sense from a biological or mythological standpoint). Also everything Paizo has ever written on the topic only makes it worse (see: "slaughtering drow children is okay because drow are super evil").

Anonymouswizard
2017-10-17, 03:47 AM
Then there are the unfortunate implications of the evil elves who live in caves being black-skinned (despite this making absolutely no sense from a biological or mythological standpoint).

One of the aspects of Warhammer's Dark Elves I loved was them being just as pale skinned as regular elves, if not paler. Plus any argument on it being a magical curse skims too close to 'black skin is the mark of Cain' (which was a real theory in our world used to justify racism) for my liking.

It actually annoys me enough that when I finish off my D&D setting it's going to go exactly the other way, biologically there is no difference between surface elves and subsurface elves (they live for hundreds of years at minimum, natural selection hasn't kicked in yet). They tend to be paler and have issues with sunlight, but enough time on the surface and they'll adjust and get a tan.

Metahuman1
2017-10-17, 04:08 AM
On the other hand, drow are ... problematic is too generous a word. They embody the Matriarchy In Name Only trope, and while I love the Lolth-centric explanation for that (Lolth's favorite joke is drow suffering), it's still a justification for something that's pretty troubling.

And, that's a problem? The idea that one Gender totally controlling and dominating the other one is bad regardless of which gender is dominating and which gender is being subjugated? This is a bad notion to have now? That's always been what I've gotten out of Drow. A rebuttal to the idea that I frankly hear alarmingly often these days whenever I go onto a college campus. (That if Women were just put in charge of everything and made the elite privileged ruling cast of society, everything would magically just get better. And it's not just Artsy-Fartsy or I'm-here-for-the-party's type students this has come to me from either. ) A statement that no, no, you have made nothing better, it's just as bad, it's just that now the labels have been swapped is all, and maybe some of the fluffy but inconsequential window dressing has been changed.



Then there are the unfortunate implications of the evil elves who live in caves being black-skinned (despite this making absolutely no sense from a biological or mythological standpoint).

Are you seriously trying to claim that absolutely nothing anywhere in nature has dark skin or exoskeleton in order to help it blend in with darker environmental conditions? Really? (As for the deity thing, look, Darkness is suppose to be associated with evil and black magic and the like. It's an old hold over and a commonly recognized one in pretty much all of western culture, don't read more into it then that. Because what your reading into it is frankly more then what I think is actually there on that front.)

gkathellar
2017-10-17, 08:35 AM
And, that's a problem? The idea that one Gender totally controlling and dominating the other one is bad regardless of which gender is dominating and which gender is being subjugated? This is a bad notion to have now?

Missing the point. The drow are supposed to be evil, yes, and an evil matriarchy in fiction can theoretically highlight the problems of gender discrimination in general. But is that what the drow actually have? On the contrary, I would argue that a bunch of dominatrixes walking around in boobplates and heels and metal thongs, confined by social obligation to the priestess caste, and given the primary social duties of praying, bearing children, and being unreasonable, has very little to do with a sincere examination of gender repression. It has a lot more to do with male gaze and the patriarchal power fantasy of overthrowing vicious, evil women (who are of course sexy and promiscuous), and restoring a comforting patriarchal order to the world. The spider/BDSM imagery is just anxiety icing on the anxiety cake.

Now, let it not go unsaid that Lolth becomes something of an author's saving throw here! Why is drow society arguably just as bad to its women as it is to its men? Because Lolth hates everyone. Not men - everyone. And she thinks it's funny to watch them suffer and die. But while this is a really clever twist, I don't know that I think it saves the concept as a whole.


A statement that no, no, you have made nothing better, it's just as bad, it's just that now the labels have been swapped is all, and maybe some of the fluffy but inconsequential window dressing has been changed.

All of which sounds great, but the drow aren't what you're describing. They're a distinctly patriarchal fantasy created by men in a patriarchal society for the purpose of allowing assumed-male-gamers to knock them down.


Are you seriously trying to claim that absolutely nothing anywhere in nature has dark skin or exoskeleton in order to help it blend in with darker environmental conditions? Really?

Uh ... animals in subterranean and/or cave ecosystems tend to lack for any pigmentation at all, and their eyes tend to be vestigial. Camouflage is only a relevant survival strategy in environments that aren't pitch black. And even if we assume there's light in the underdark (lolwut), actual camouflage colors would be gray/brown, not black with white hair.

Even outside of cave systems, even in hominids, light skin tones evolved as a direct response to being in environments with reduced sunlight, and did so fairly rapidly. Melanin is a very effective chemical defense against the sunlight, but when sunlight stops being a problem, it rapidly loses its utility. This is especially true for intelligent species, who know how to clothe themselves.


(As for the deity thing, look,

Wasn't talking about the deity. Dark elves have mythological roots in the Norse svartalfr. AFAIK, there is no description of them as black-skinned in the extant texts - that is a neologism based on Americans in the eighties. Incidentally, they were also known as dvergar, i.e. dwarves.

afroakuma
2017-10-17, 09:38 AM
Could we not do this, perhaps? It feels like the kind of thing that's asking to snowball.

To the OP: consider checking out the Finding Players (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?51-Finding-Players-(Recruitment)) subforum and asking around about DMs open to drow characters, if you're looking for a game.

Pugwampy
2017-10-17, 09:48 AM
I'm willing and looking for players or DM who knows a lot about drow, and had even use it in their world-building, or campaign.

Why ? Do you need advice or module suggestions or what ?

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-17, 12:26 PM
I think it is reasonable to say that both gkathellar and Metahuman1 have good points, because if the drow exist in a vaccum, it looks really weird. If the drow are the only Matriarchy/Patriarchy around, they really stand out. Since there does seem to be a trend for gender-equal cultures in DnD, they can stand out if they're the only one who cares about what's in your pants. I guess it might also get really weird if the people are run by women are the smartest villains around, especially since that would mean that their bigotry isn't getting in their way terribly much.

Their predilection for whips and bikinis really doesn't sell the whole 'I'm not creepy! Really!' thing either. Having good drow appeal to the fetish of the author is also really not helping.

It also gets worse, because I do feel like people might not discuss comfort levels regarding levels of bigotry since they're kinda a tradition. Maybe some people just want to hit things on the head and not have a discussion on sex politics with people they've just met or when they have an half-ogre character named Hulk.

Haldir
2017-10-17, 12:55 PM
That's pretty funny. Why were the drow having these extended conversations around the PCs?

Well, neither the party nor the Drow were eager to fight each other. They had been intentionally trapped together inside of a Dwarven lava-engine by some Devils. The Drow were willing to consider the raid a bust and were just trying to escape, as was the party. The players kept asking them stupid questions, and the Drow were simply looking to mitigate losses and avoid conflict while they exorcised a devil from some of the machinery. When it became clear that the party wouldn't let the Drow handle it their own way, they stepped aside to let the party go against the Devils.

Goal of the adventure was to have three different power centers all vying for dominence inside the closed system of this lava-powered engine. Was a fantastic adventure.

I guess I should note that while this was happening the Drow males were looking to entertain themselves by challenging the party to various duels, either with the weapons master himself or their Drider minions. Gave the right feel of martial culture and indifference to death that I associate with Drow.

War_lord
2017-10-17, 12:56 PM
There's much about the Drow that's cool and makes me want to use them as major villains. It's just a shame the cool elements of the Drow are so interlinked with the elements that are blatant expressions of male nerd anxieties about women that it's a struggle to excise them.

Guizonde
2017-10-17, 01:45 PM
Heh. good. I remember one time on the forums where I expressed that I would simply have a drow wear sunglasses because it was logical to do so, and the person arguing against it was so adamant about the sunglasses being this Serious Thing and that I shouldn't have it or have to pay for it dearly in some manner and its just like "dude, its just sunglasses, let it go"


as a nod to old man henderson, i blew 3/8th of my starting budget on 3 pairs of sunglasses for my half-drow inquisitor. they're only 10 gp in pathfinder (which, to be fair is pretty much equal to my real-world prescription sunglasses, iirc 10 gp is a monthly wage for a basic worker). are they uncommon? kind of, but the bonuses offered are crazy useful at early levels, i've found.

i've just checked the smoked goggles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/goods-and-services/containers-bags-boxes-more/#TOC-Goggles-Smoked) link in the pfsrd, and we use slightly different rules for my particular case. i suffer no penalties while wearing them, but if i lose them, i suffer from the blinded condition until i get back in very low light. i also gain a +2 to resist light and dazzling effects, but the gaze save is halved to +4.

knowing of my condition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photophobia), my dm adjusted the crunch to make it more like how i operate in real life. sometimes, night vision rocks. the rest of the time, ophthalmic migraines are a real headache to avoid.

as a plus side, it helps me mentally to rp my handicap. it alleviates the stigma of being "that dude who wears sunglasses at night".

Anonymouswizard
2017-10-17, 02:19 PM
as a nod to old man henderson, i blew 3/8th of my starting budget on 3 pairs of sunglasses for my half-drow inquisitor. they're only 10 gp in pathfinder (which, to be fair is pretty much equal to my real-world prescription sunglasses, iirc 10 gp is a monthly wage for a basic worker). are they uncommon? kind of, but the bonuses offered are crazy useful at early levels, i've found.

How expensive are glasses where you live? I can get a pair of prescription sunglasses for less than a week's minimum wage over here!

Heck, my current normal glasses only cost about a day's work at minimum wage, specifically about Ł50. If I wanted designer frames it would be about twice that for the frames (maybe up to three to four times), maybe up to another twenty to thirty quid for nicer lenses, and then a bit of an extra charge if they're sunglasses IIRC (which tended to have specific frames when I bothered with them). Decent glasses might run me a couple of hundred pounds, which would end up at a week or two of work (once I get some) at most.

Guizonde
2017-10-17, 02:39 PM
How expensive are glasses where you live? I can get a pair of prescription sunglasses for less than a week's minimum wage over here!

Heck, my current normal glasses only cost about a day's work at minimum wage, specifically about Ł50. If I wanted designer frames it would be about twice that for the frames (maybe up to three to four times), maybe up to another twenty to thirty quid for nicer lenses, and then a bit of an extra charge if they're sunglasses IIRC (which tended to have specific frames when I bothered with them). Decent glasses might run me a couple of hundred pounds, which would end up at a week or two of work (once I get some) at most.

my lenses cost 467€ each. ok, i got them reinforced against crazing, scratching, and glare, but that apparently is s.o.p. when dealing with those things. my frames are titanium and cost around about 36€. they cost me the exorbitant sum of -4,76€. i love my health care plan. so, yeah, it's about a month's salary where i live (slightly less). it might be the moment to add that i do suffer from pretty awful myopia on top of the photophobia. both things run in the family, so we always get an additional coverage for eye-related reimbursement.

my character, lacking french universal healthcare, spent 30gp for 3 pairs, and hangs out with a cleric that prepares mend as an orison just in case my antics get me punched in the face (which hasn't yet happened, much to everyone's surprise). it works just as well, it seems.

afroakuma
2017-10-17, 07:44 PM
Their predilection for whips and bikinis really doesn't sell the whole 'I'm not creepy! Really!' thing either. Having good drow appeal to the fetish of the author is also really not helping.


There's much about the Drow that's cool and makes me want to use them as major villains. It's just a shame the cool elements of the Drow are so interlinked with the elements that are blatant expressions of male nerd anxieties about women that it's a struggle to excise them.

See, the "whips and bikinis" era of drow is really alien to me. I'm used to conceptualizing drow as the old Erol Otus style "fitted but segmented armor" or the 2E Monstrous Manual's admittedly underdressed but still fairly conservative chain-skirted warrior. The one from the 3rd Edition Monster Manual also stands out. As for leading villains, Yvonnel Baenre from Salvatore's novels always came across to me, at least in my mind's eye, as basically a darker, female Emperor Palpatine.

Frankly, I see no use to incorporating it - so I don't. My drow are still hedonistic and selfish, but would never publicize their personal proclivities for fear of exposing a weakness that an enemy could use to end them. It's painted as a society in which one has to watch their back, not leave it teasingly exposed. Nothing about their tastes suggests to me any socially functional role for nonfunctional clothing.

Max_Killjoy
2017-10-17, 08:04 PM
There's much about the Drow that's cool and makes me want to use them as major villains. It's just a shame the cool elements of the Drow are so interlinked with the elements that are blatant expressions of male nerd anxieties about women that it's a struggle to excise them.

Dare I ask if there's any underlying evidence to support that assertion?

E: I suppose one could make a decent case that they appeal to certain consumers of the material for that reason, but that's not the same as them being an expression, which would require design intent.



See, the "whips and bikinis" era of drow is really alien to me. I'm used to conceptualizing drow as the old Erol Otus style "fitted but segmented armor" or the 2E Monstrous Manual's admittedly underdressed but still fairly conservative chain-skirted warrior. The one from the 3rd Edition Monster Manual also stands out. As for leading villains, Yvonnel Baenre from Salvatore's novels always came across to me, at least in my mind's eye, as basically a darker, female Emperor Palpatine.

Frankly, I see no use to incorporating it - so I don't. My drow are still hedonistic and selfish, but would never publicize their personal proclivities for fear of exposing a weakness that an enemy could use to end them. It's painted as a society in which one has to watch their back, not leave it teasingly exposed. Nothing about their tastes suggests to me any socially functional role for nonfunctional clothing.

That makes more sense that drow running around nearly-naked.

Dragonexx
2017-10-17, 08:47 PM
Dare I ask if there's any underlying evidence to support that assertion?

E: I suppose one could make a decent case that they appeal to certain consumers of the material for that reason, but that's not the same as them being an expression, which would require design intent.




That makes more sense that drow running around nearly-naked.

Depends, drow of the underdark posits that dressing in skimpy clothing is a means of projecting confidence and power. Those who dress conservatively are perceived to be insecure and weak.

Ultimately though it comes down to group preferences.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-17, 09:34 PM
Even if one goes with the strange canon that drow are skimpy, I am not sure one could prove it's an expression of anxiety as opposed to 'DEM TITTIES'. Sometimes, the simpler explanation can be just as valid.

Metahuman1
2017-10-17, 11:33 PM
Depends, drow of the underdark posits that dressing in skimpy clothing is a means of projecting confidence and power. Those who dress conservatively are perceived to be insecure and weak.

Frankly, this makes sense. I know a LOT of guys and a fair number of girls whom are VERY, VERY into fitness and this is very much a part of there mind set. (Frankly, in at least some of there cases, I can see why, as I'm reasonably certain if they ever got a truly good grip on me and had intent, they could indeed freaking break me. And I'm not a big man, but I do have SOME degree of skill in defending myself so, when I make that assessment, it's not a lack of confidence talking. And yes, at least a portion of the ones that fall into this domain are also women.)






But yeah, I don't see the drow as being a patriarchal creation. For the 1 class thing. Here's the part you appear to have overlooked. That one class? That's the top ranked class. It would be like if a requirement to both vote and hold any form of public office or be a share holder or on the board of or CEO of any company employing more then like 5-6 people, was that one must be a Woman. Sure, in that case, your still banned form all sorts of other jobs, doctors, Law Enforcement, Entertainment, Military, so on, but the jobs assigned too you have complete power over all the other jobs anyway!

You can't be a cop, but you can order the cops to do your bidding, and have cops done away with in any fashion you like at your whim.

Same with Doctors, employees below CEO level in your business's or government institution's, entertainers, Military personnel, whatever else have you, cause again, your one field that you go into is "Being freaking in charge cause your at the top of this society's power structure!".

As for the Skimpy clothing thing, yeah, there's NEVER been another scantily clad character archetype or civilization in fantasy. :smallamused: Just, forget that Conan is frequently out fighting dues in full plate with not but whatever weapons immediately handy, a pair of gladiator sandals and a loin cloth to show off his arms and abs and thighs and calves and shoulders and pecks of steel, or that Red Sonya is like, THE go to thing to think of when the words "Chainmail Bikini" are uttered or written. And I say this as someone who's actually not terribly fond of the chainmail Bikini and only forgiving of the Loin Cloth if it's a breaking myself out of prison or I got attacked in the middle of the night while sleeping type scenario.


Also, light is a thing in the underdark. There are numerous references to it happening from various fungus type plants, creatures and somewhat magical things down there in various spots, and the drow have been known to produce it frequently cause, well, a small amount of it is a nifty thing to have as far as seeing out further away. So, Camo's not completely invalid. It's not optimal, but it's also not invalid.





And remember, this is a game that takes a lot of direction from that, and does a lot of things itself, not because they are practical at all, but because they are cool or look cool, and for no reason beyond that. Trust me, Duel Wielding certain weapons that can be duel wielded or 2 handing a Bastard Sword would NOT be mechanically outright better then an arming sword and a shield or buckler in almost any instance if that was not the case.


And for most of the rest, ok, Dark Magic is still associated with being evil, and the absolute easiest way to show that in a picture for most people in the west, whom come from civilizations were for millennia on end Night was to be feared because the darkness meant you couldn't see WHAT was coming after you, and whom made up more story's then can be learned in one life time I'd wager about things they though or believed or were sure or suspected were out there that never existed, is to just use a dark color like black. Have you never heard expressions like "the Darkest recesses of Hell/Nightmare?" or such to describe horrifying things?

Besides when I think of Drow, I think of them as having a skin tone so dark as to be not even close to physically possible for a human to achieve. Which has the added benefit of combining with a rare if not outright impossible hair color and eye color to sell the idea that this is NOT just a human of X decent, and is in fact very much it's own race, so don't take any other baggage other then the baggage it tells you on the tin that it brings to the door in with it.


Also helps to remember a percentage of the Drow population are a shade of freaking purple, and that White Drow (Albino Drow.) also exist.

Regarding the spider imagery, I actually DETEST spiders in general and about the only things Spider Related I make an exception for that rule for are Marvel Comics Characters (That includes the lady's like Spider Gwen and Silk, when there written well and I'm not just mad at Marvel in general like I have been for some years now.), so I'll outright GIVE you that one. The only defense I can offer is they are villains, so KILLING things that are spider themed makes me feel less bad about killing, because I hate spiders.

The BDSM thing, en, I think at the time it was just though of as an exotic idea so they threw it in. That's what THAT always felt like to me. People who know NOTHING about BDSM throwing in a touch of the imagery and some dialog that's trying to sound like it knows something about it but doesn't and is easily spotted as such for those with actual familiarity with it. It's not great, but it's also not nearly as damming as you seem to feel it is either. See the point about the systems tendency to do things because it looks cool and no reason beyond that.




Lastly, being there for the purpose of knocking them down is exactly the point of pretty much every creature in the game depending on the nature of the PC or PC's in a particular party formation in a particular game. An alleged Patriarchy has nothing to do with it. Again, I really, really feel like you are reading more things into it then there are actually present.

Lord Raziere
2017-10-18, 12:00 AM
Missing the point. The drow are supposed to be evil, yes, and an evil matriarchy in fiction can theoretically highlight the problems of gender discrimination in general. But is that what the drow actually have? On the contrary, I would argue that a bunch of dominatrixes walking around in boobplates and heels and metal thongs, confined by social obligation to the priestess caste, and given the primary social duties of praying, bearing children, and being unreasonable, has very little to do with a sincere examination of gender repression. It has a lot more to do with male gaze and the patriarchal power fantasy of overthrowing vicious, evil women (who are of course sexy and promiscuous), and restoring a comforting patriarchal order to the world. The spider/BDSM imagery is just anxiety icing on the anxiety cake.


Well technically, historically speaking in victorian times, being upper class didn't necessarily mean you had a fulfilling life. sure you got more wealth and prestige and whatnot, but since any job that involves working with your hands was considered beneath them, this meant a lot of stuff they could possibly do was cut out, simply because they were surrounded by servants to do everything for them. the result was that a lot of the upper class was incredibly bored and had to occupy themselves with fashion, parties, gambling, hobbies and whatnot just to pass the time, since they couldn't necessarily just do whatever they want, they had to obey etiquette and keep their families reputation upheld, meaning their existence was pretty much a gilded cage, and lower classes didn't necessarily see the classes above them as better, since the middle class had more freedom to do whatever they want without the restrictive obligations that came with aristocracy, while the lower classes looked at the ones above them as having more flaws than they do.

so being in the higher class of society doesn't inherently mean you have a good life, you have more advantages in a material sense but those come with social ties that make you have to work to keep them. people back then didn't see getting into the aristocracy as an inherently good thing, and many preferred to remain in their own social class out of the belief that theirs was better.

So a higher class of society having limited duties like that is actually pretty accurate, as they have the "privilege" of not having to get their hands dirty. thus ironically putting them in a less free position to do anything since they're put on a mountaintop with little room to move.

VoxRationis
2017-10-18, 12:45 AM
I'm kind of inclined to side with the "skimpiness is for titillation" interpretation of drow authorship, but as afroakuma pointed out, that's just a specific art style from particular authors and eras. It can be dispensed with fairly easily in the same way that your DM can point out that your paladin's scale armor is more than just a triangular scrap of scales hanging off her chest. And skimpy clothing is a problem in general with fantasy illustrations.

Anonymouswizard
2017-10-18, 05:04 AM
Depends, drow of the underdark posits that dressing in skimpy clothing is a means of projecting confidence and power. Those who dress conservatively are perceived to be insecure and weak.

Ultimately though it comes down to group preferences.

While it does make a certain amount of sense, it only does among certain groups of drow at certain times.

So it makes complete sense for a priestess to do that while being about town. A warrior protecting a home or going out to patrol the tunnels will look at another warrior with a 'are you stupid' expression if they don't turn up in full armour. Projecting confidence is all good when your opponents aren't going to use an axe, while they are put some armour on and for Lloth's sake grab a thrusting weapon if we're going to be fighting in tunnels.

Needless to say, my drow are renowned as masters of the spear and rapier, generally preferring a one-handed shorter spear with a shield. Oh sure, priestesses run around in bikinis and wield curved blades, but when was the last time you saw them on the front lines?

gkathellar
2017-10-18, 05:48 AM
See, the "whips and bikinis" era of drow is really alien to me. I'm used to conceptualizing drow as the old Erol Otus style "fitted but segmented armor" or the 2E Monstrous Manual's admittedly underdressed but still fairly conservative chain-skirted warrior. The one from the 3rd Edition Monster Manual also stands out. As for leading villains, Yvonnel Baenre from Salvatore's novels always came across to me, at least in my mind's eye, as basically a darker, female Emperor Palpatine.

Frankly, I see no use to incorporating it - so I don't. My drow are still hedonistic and selfish, but would never publicize their personal proclivities for fear of exposing a weakness that an enemy could use to end them. It's painted as a society in which one has to watch their back, not leave it teasingly exposed. Nothing about their tastes suggests to me any socially functional role for nonfunctional clothing.

And I'm down with that, especially if you either (a) play down some of the weird social restrictiveness, or (b) play up the fact that their society is designed specifically to make everyone miserable.

Like I said, they're great villains, and the baseline concept for a drow combat encounter, "they fight like PCs," that's rock solid. It's just that there are a lot of things you have to overlook, and a lot of those things date to some of their very first appearances.


Depends, drow of the underdark posits that dressing in skimpy clothing is a means of projecting confidence and power. Those who dress conservatively are perceived to be insecure and weak.

... wait they actually tried to justify that? Like, I get why as a writer one might be tempted to, but just, like why would you, but, just, no, what is this, I can't

*screams silently*


Even if one goes with the strange canon that drow are skimpy, I am not sure one could prove it's an expression of anxiety as opposed to 'DEM TITTIES'. Sometimes, the simpler explanation can be just as valid.

Oh definitely. The spiders and the whips come across as an anxiety thing, but the skimpiness is just male gaze played perfectly straight.

I don't think analysis of drow really holds them up as the product of one coherent vision. There's some good stuff, and it's really good. And then there's some bad stuff, and it's really bad. And then there's the stuff from their ecology article in Dragon, and look I can only get so angry okay.

VoxRationis
2017-10-18, 09:00 AM
Needless to say, my drow are renowned as masters of the spear and rapier, generally preferring a one-handed shorter spear with a shield. Oh sure, priestesses run around in bikinis and wield curved blades, but when was the last time you saw them on the front lines?

In general, spear and shield Classical Greek phalanx fighting should be the default for underground inhabitants. The environment is likely too confining to ever get to where you're using full-on pikes, but there's also no room to get around a solid mass of well-armored infantry with spears. The only issue I see is that there might be supply issues getting enough wood to make spear hafts, and that's solvable if there's even a modicum of trade with the surface ("We will give you emeralds and rubies if you give us small amounts of timber" is a very attractive deal).
As I understand it, though, the drow don't actually do foot soldiers. They do ambush raiding with commando teams and if they need to fight more openly, they use slave or monster cannon fodder. This is one more example of a reason their society isn't really viable.

Guizonde
2017-10-18, 09:46 AM
In general, spear and shield Classical Greek phalanx fighting should be the default for underground inhabitants. The environment is likely too confining to ever get to where you're using full-on pikes, but there's also no room to get around a solid mass of well-armored infantry with spears. The only issue I see is that there might be supply issues getting enough wood to make spear hafts, and that's solvable if there's even a modicum of trade with the surface ("We will give you emeralds and rubies if you give us small amounts of timber" is a very attractive deal).
As I understand it, though, the drow don't actually do foot soldiers. They do ambush raiding with commando teams and if they need to fight more openly, they use slave or monster cannon fodder. This is one more example of a reason their society isn't really viable.

correct me if i'm wrong, but for an offensive in a tunnel i agree that a phalanx would be brutal to face off against, but from a defensive standpoint? raiders, ambushes, sappers, commandos and traps would be just as effective while committing less meat soldiers. if you've got the lay of the land, you can use your environment as a weapon against much larger forces. which paradoxically explains why it would take a phalanx to breach a tunnel-fight. in my limited experience of rp-fighting in warrens, you've got 2 basic ways of winning a corridor fight: bottlenecking and blitzing. a bottleneck uses the environment to fight with you while denying the enemy that edge (litteral bottlenecks, refused flanks using flames, spikes, explosive toddlers...) multiplying your combat efficiency. this would use both traps and "ranged" weaponry, like spears, crossbows, a ballista if you can flaunt one... the blitz is the hard counter to the bottle-neck: you rush the enemy before he's got a chance to set you up to fight the enviroment as well as him. this involves usually a tank. i've experience with the litteral kind, but my players did create a sort of exo-armor for a player to similar effect. it was a walking bullet catcher who survived until the crunch of the assault. a breaching unit, if you will.

now, imagine you've got secret tunnels, hidden passages, hell, even air vents or multiple floors. that's the kind of landscape all too common in my homebrew, and the fights become 3-dimensional. a hassle to do on a battle-map, but sheer terror for the defenders of a fight. enemies will appear from all directions: front, back, left, right, top and bottom. throw a few drow assassins behind the phalanx with some choice poison and firebombs and watch the assault become a claustrophobic bloodbath.

War_lord
2017-10-18, 11:38 AM
In general, spear and shield Classical Greek phalanx fighting should be the default for underground inhabitants. The environment is likely too confining to ever get to where you're using full-on pikes, but there's also no room to get around a solid mass of well-armored infantry with spears. The only issue I see is that there might be supply issues getting enough wood to make spear hafts, and that's solvable if there's even a modicum of trade with the surface ("We will give you emeralds and rubies if you give us small amounts of timber" is a very attractive deal).
As I understand it, though, the drow don't actually do foot soldiers. They do ambush raiding with commando teams and if they need to fight more openly, they use slave or monster cannon fodder. This is one more example of a reason their society isn't really viable.

I disagree. The thing about the Greek phalanx is that you need a very specific battlefield. That is a flat plain of land, ideally somewhere where the enemy must meet you head on, like a mountain pass. A cave floor is going to be uneven, a massive cave system is going to have side passages. If your spearwall gets broken up or you're flanked, more flexible infantry will slaughter you. Drow don't need to get into a pitched battle, pitched battles are risky. They'll harass you with poisoned bolts, they'll take out your scouting parties, you'll get lost in the caves, any man who lags behind on the march will go missing, probably eaten by spiders. They won't strike the final blow till the army is already broken.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-18, 12:25 PM
And I'm down with that, especially if you either (a) play down some of the weird social restrictiveness, or (b) play up the fact that their society is designed specifically to make everyone miserable.

For some reason, the idea that Lolth just wants to see butts and makes everyone dress skimpily to suit her desires really amuses me. It doesn't make them terribly threatening, but highly amusing.

I think I agree with the camp that just because it is skimpy doesn't mean it's bad, but that explanation is a bit faulty. First, it favors magic over physical prowess and a cleric of Lolth would need both. Secondly, drow are encouraged to use any advantage they can, so why not just glamor up some armor and have the benefit of both? But now I imagine drow fighting like Celtic warriors and running in completely naked under glamored armor causing quite a lot of confusion for more prudish surface races...

I guess I could see drow not understanding covering up boobs, which to them are a source of power and beauty. Why would they be ashamed of their femininity and the very things that help them raise the future generations of drow? But on the other hand, I think most women need support and coverage there for comfort reasons. Having those be cold AND flop around might show that the drow woman can endure pain, but I think a certain amount of efficiency is needed for combat. One could say that some outfits aren't always made for combat, but I'd say every outfit is made to fend off assassins.

On the other other hand, I think it's going to take a better DM then me to not cause a group to giggle madly if a drow army attacks with bits flapping and flopping all over the place. Put me in the Erol Otus camp, whatever that is. Anyone got some pictures of that?

VoxRationis
2017-10-18, 12:30 PM
@War_lord and Guizonde: Remember that the phalanx was developed by people living in very rough terrain, and that extended hit-and-run tactics work best when you've got lots of space to facilitate the "run" part of things. Even regions that are generally rough terrain have enough clear, flat spots that it's more than practical to pick a specific battlefield to fit a phalanx on, even if you'll have to fall back on skirmishers in other parts of the country. If that were not true, the Greeks, who live on a peninsula full of mountains, woody hills, and rocky coastlines in odd shapes, would not have developed it. Underground, the phalanx is even more secure, since there's lots of hard, impassable barriers to secure the flanks, and hit-and-run tactics have the limitation that both direction and distance of retreat is highly limited. If the area is honeycombed with tunnels running in all directions, that changes things, but most caves have plenty of one-dimensional choke points.

gkathellar
2017-10-18, 12:40 PM
Phalanxes are loud and obvious, and require a disciplined professional army of the type drow would have a hard time assembling. Most importantly, they require esprit de corps and citizens willing to die for one another, which are things drow just don't do. In addition, drow frequently go up against giant monsters, wizards, beholders, illithid, incorporeal undead, and other creatures that can obliterate or at least wreak havoc on a formation with relative ease. And this is all assuming your stamping around doesn't attract something with a bad attitude and a burrow speed.

This is without touching on the environment. Remember, the Underdark is not just a tunnel complex. It's an enormous and highly varied cave system that moves rapidly between barely habitable and completely uninhabitable. You never know when you're going to encounter a crawlspace, moving water, flammable or poisonous gas, swamp conditions, giant lakes of acid, swarms of elf-eating wildlife, or rust monsters. The maps shift and change, for reasons both natural and supernatural. If this sounds a lot like a dungeon, well yes, that's the point. The Underdark is the ultimate dungeon, and the drow have been dungeon-crawling for longer than you have - hence why they fight like adventurers.

Also, bear in mind that most of what we hear/say about drow is about their nobility. Commoners are may end up as more typical guards and soldiers.


The only issue I see is that there might be supply issues getting enough wood to make spear hafts, and that's solvable if there's even a modicum of trade with the surface ("We will give you emeralds and rubies if you give us small amounts of timber" is a very attractive deal).

Underdark flora (mushrooms, mostly) is actually plentiful, so this wouldn't be a huge issue. Mind, the flora tries to kill you, but so does everything in the Underdark, so uh ... whatever.


As I understand it, though, the drow don't actually do foot soldiers. They do ambush raiding with commando teams and if they need to fight more openly, they use slave or monster cannon fodder. This is one more example of a reason their society isn't really viable.

For reasons I mention above, this is part of their supremacy. Drow are specifically trained as elites, partly because elites are what they need, and partly because their highly competitive society would allow for nothing else. You're right that it's not really a viable model IRL, and is maintained by Lolth and for Lolth through D&D's logic of personal power (for Lolth's amusement). It does make a certain sense in the Underdark, though, where any less aggressive society would end up on the defensive in short order.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-18, 12:54 PM
Phalanxes are loud and obvious, and require a disciplined professional army of the type drow would have a hard time assembling. Most importantly, they require esprit de corps and citizens willing to die for one another, which are things drow just don't do. In addition, drow frequently go up against giant monsters, wizards, beholders, illithid, incorporeal undead, and other creatures that can obliterate or at least wreak havoc on a formation with relative ease. And this is all assuming your stamping around doesn't attract something with a bad attitude and a burrow speed.

For some reason, this quote is making me think of Duergar, relying on their spell resistance and their armor to protect them from the hit and run tactics of the drow. The Duergar seem like they'd be the ones to favor the phalanx given their hardiness and smithing prowess, while the drow have to rely on magic and speed.

gkathellar
2017-10-18, 01:16 PM
Yeah, it just comes about that magic and speed are largely preferable in an environment full of purple worms.

War_lord
2017-10-18, 02:36 PM
@War_lord and Guizonde: Remember that the phalanx was developed by people living in very rough terrain, and that extended hit-and-run tactics work best when you've got lots of space to facilitate the "run" part of things. Even regions that are generally rough terrain have enough clear, flat spots that it's more than practical to pick a specific battlefield to fit a phalanx on, even if you'll have to fall back on skirmishers in other parts of the country. If that were not true, the Greeks, who live on a peninsula full of mountains, woody hills, and rocky coastlines in odd shapes, would not have developed it. Underground, the phalanx is even more secure, since there's lots of hard, impassable barriers to secure the flanks, and hit-and-run tactics have the limitation that both direction and distance of retreat is highly limited. If the area is honeycombed with tunnels running in all directions, that changes things, but most caves have plenty of one-dimensional choke points.

Because they did the fighting on the flat bits, in preagreed places. If you look at the historical accounts of Hoplites vs more regular infantry the Phalanx falls apart pretty quickly if it's engaged on rough ground by more flexible formations, which is why it was gradually abandoned for more flexible units beginning with the Peltast. It was developed for a very specific, almost ritualistic, kind of warfare. Once it encountered the flexible Roman infantry it couldn't keep up.

Anyway, why would the Chaotic scheming Drow fight in a formation that relies so heavily on physical strength and martial discipline that required trusting your comrades with your life?

Dragonexx
2017-10-18, 03:02 PM
Because law and chaos are in general, stupidly written and inconsistently portrayed in D&D.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-18, 03:08 PM
Anyway, why would the Chaotic scheming Drow fight in a formation that relies so heavily on physical strength and martial discipline that required trusting your comrades with your life?

People are probably going to hate this, but I'd like to point out that Drow and Kender are both races that require Divine Intervention in order to not die out as a species. Just saying.

I'd like to see a drow society that's far more functional without a god hovering over them like how a mother hovers over a toddler that has just discovered electrical outlets.

Anonymouswizard
2017-10-18, 03:26 PM
For some reason, the idea that Lolth just wants to see butts and makes everyone dress skimpily to suit her desires really amuses me. It doesn't make them terribly threatening, but highly amusing.

I think I agree with the camp that just because it is skimpy doesn't mean it's bad, but that explanation is a bit faulty. First, it favors magic over physical prowess and a cleric of Lolth would need both. Secondly, drow are encouraged to use any advantage they can, so why not just glamor up some armor and have the benefit of both? But now I imagine drow fighting like Celtic warriors and running in completely naked under glamored armor causing quite a lot of confusion for more prudish surface races...

I kind of like it, although I think I'll go for the 'skin tight armour' look for my setting if I keep the nudity thing (mainly because I'm not overly fond of glamoured armour). So most of the time the higher ranking a drow is the less they wear (and the ones at the top don't even wear pockets), but when going to battle they wear armour that's the fantasy equivalent of a latext space suit.


I guess I could see drow not understanding covering up boobs, which to them are a source of power and beauty. Why would they be ashamed of their femininity and the very things that help them raise the future generations of drow? But on the other hand, I think most women need support and coverage there for comfort reasons. Having those be cold AND flop around might show that the drow woman can endure pain, but I think a certain amount of efficiency is needed for combat. One could say that some outfits aren't always made for combat, but I'd say every outfit is made to fend off assassins.

IIRC the need for support varies with size, and some women find some forms of support uncomfortable (one of my friends decided bras are 'boobie traps'), so if we're going for flat chested drow it'll likely be less of a problem than if we're going for melons. Maybe assassin defence worked as an evolutionary mechanism to the point where male and female drow have very similar chests.

No, this is not because I find androgynous people hot.

It's likely that the amount of restriction and support given to their breasts will vary from drow to drow based on practicalities, and I fully expect bra spells to be invented by some drow in order to keep them in place with an uncovered chest. As well as corset spells as torture mechanisms.


On the other other hand, I think it's going to take a better DM then me to not cause a group to giggle madly if a drow army attacks with bits flapping and flopping all over the place. Put me in the Erol Otus camp, whatever that is. Anyone got some pictures of that?

Yes, hilarious at a table, but it is probably terrifying for the PCs. Not that it'll stop anybody from laughing.

afroakuma
2017-10-18, 04:00 PM
I'd like to see a drow society that's far more functional without a god hovering over them like how a mother hovers over a toddler that has just discovered electrical outlets.

Technically Lolth is the source of their problems. Drow would likely have a significantly more functional society without her. :smalltongue:

Excession
2017-10-18, 04:42 PM
My explanation for the lack of clothing is quite simple: heat. I like the idea that, like the real world, the crust gets warmer the further you go down. You've got 30°C+ temperatures, 90+% humidity, no sun to make desert robes work, and nothing like surface wind. Heavy clothing would be inviting death by heat stroke. Conversely, any Drow seen on the surface, at least in the pseudo-european part of the surfaces, should be shivering inside multiple layers of fur.

Guizonde
2017-10-18, 04:57 PM
i was precisely thinking of duergar as the phalanx, actually. drow don't sound like "dungeon crashers" to me. now, take all i say with a big grain of salt: i'm a medieval military historian, not a professionnal tactician. i only talked about my limited experience in rp-tunnel fighting and extrapolated using my limited knowledge. phalanx tactics (for footsoldiers) is not something i consider. that said, i'm glad that the forum consensus goes with what i'm saying: skirmishers slaughter formations in tunnels.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-18, 05:10 PM
No, this is not because I find androgynous people hot.

Not my preference, but I do prefer that elves retain this because so few races have a body of artwork with a range of androgynous types. When I hear complaints that elves aren't androgynous, it always seems to be from the people who don't want their smug Mary Sue/Gary Stu to have...Features that aren't conventionally attractive! OH THE HUMANITY. YOU POOR DEAR.

Anyway, a more slender body type would probably be a nice note if someone were devoted to the idea of scantily clad drow. I also like the idea of heat, because it does make sense and would also be a logical explanation (and get rid of the factor that boobies get cold). Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I doubt many people are going to acknowledge that a race known for being slender and delicate probably isn't going to be top heavy either.

Another factor is the type of tunnels. I assumed that the Underdark has a extensive cavern network, so the idea that there might be large enough caverns shaped by whatever to have flat terrain might not be an impossible one.

Guizonde
2017-10-18, 05:15 PM
Not my preference, but I do prefer that elves retain this because so few races have a body of artwork with a range of androgynous types. When I hear complaints that elves aren't androgynous, it always seems to be from the people who don't want their smug Mary Sue/Gary Stu to have...Features that aren't conventionally attractive! OH THE HUMANITY. YOU POOR DEAR.

Anyway, a more slender body type would probably be a nice note if someone were devoted to the idea of scantily clad drow. I also like the idea of heat, because it does make sense and would also be a logical explanation (and get rid of the factor that boobies get cold). Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I doubt many people are going to acknowledge that a race known for being slender and delicate probably isn't going to be top heavy either.

Another factor is the type of tunnels. I assumed that the Underdark has a extensive cavern network, so the idea that there might be large enough caverns shaped by whatever to have flat terrain might not be an impossible one.

man, i like this tiefling.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-18, 05:36 PM
Another argument for the Drow to be highly androgynous: The more different their perception of female is from a real life human is, the less likely the drow are going to be seen as a commentary on women in power, as opposed to the simpler statement that oppression is bad.

For some reason, a drow woman finding a curvy human or orc woman unfeminine or even outright disgusting as opposed to her more slender, muscular and lithe body mildly amusing. That Marilyn Monroe? What a disgusting sack of uselessness that is a mockery of true femininity!

2D8HP
2017-10-18, 05:38 PM
For some reason, the idea that Lolth just wants to see.....

......it's going to take a better DM then me to not cause a group to giggle madly if a drow army attacks with bits flapping and flopping all over the place. Put me in the Erol Otus camp, whatever that is. Anyone got some pictures of that?


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SjrQXUNYLqI/AAAAAAAABFE/A8pw1AulVeg/s280/Q1+-+Drow1.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SjrQXi9Iz9I/AAAAAAAABFM/JOtEr9HgCfc/s280/D3+-+Drow3.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SjrQnx6cFyI/AAAAAAAABFc/XuKtYyV_p-s/s280/D3+-+Drow1.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SjrQofAjgQI/AAAAAAAABF0/ZTSG1IoceLk/s280/D2+-+Drow1.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SjuScEHSl9I/AAAAAAAABGU/EnBIH3_8g5E/s280/drowhead.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SjvD33YrH2I/AAAAAAAABGc/Hd7o1IbPWe4/s400/edralve.jpg

https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/thumb/0293/46/1389124398308s.jpg
http://dtneal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/ff-drow.jpg

https://archive.is/l1U4e/295d07eec36f46e3b8f722f2126e8f50311778e6.jpg

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-18, 05:43 PM
2D8HP, all that is doing is making me think the drow fashion sense is horribly imparied from centuries underground. What is that first woman wearing, a Sexy Spiderman Halloween costume!? And those shoulder pads and spiky armor!? yeeeesh. Someone kidnap a fashion designer slave, stat!

It's giving me an odd urge to listen to some Madonna songs, honestly...I think I'll take nude over fashion disasters. Where's Lolth to fix this when you need her?

Max_Killjoy
2017-10-18, 05:51 PM
2D8HP, all that is doing is making me think the drow fashion sense is horribly imparied from centuries underground. What is that first woman wearing, a Sexy Spiderman Halloween costume!? And those shoulder pads and spiky armor!? yeeeesh.


Later 70s, most of the 80s... that's about all I can say about it.

Anonymouswizard
2017-10-18, 05:55 PM
Not my preference, but I do prefer that elves retain this because so few races have a body of artwork with a range of androgynous types. When I hear complaints that elves aren't androgynous, it always seems to be from the people who don't want their smug Mary Sue/Gary Stu to have...Features that aren't conventionally attractive! OH THE HUMANITY. YOU POOR DEAR.

Eh, I'm weird. I once told a friend I thought her mustache was attractive. But yeah, a range of body types would be nice, especially as most of my PCs fall into the scrawny category. At least once because I confused pounds and kilos.

Extra fun, maybe drow don't have a concept of trousers. A male drow in a skirt looks almost exactly like a female drow in a skirt, smart adventurers turn on the family friendly filter so they can identify them.

[QUOTR]Anyway, a more slender body type would probably be a nice note if someone were devoted to the idea of scantily clad drow. I also like the idea of heat, because it does make sense and would also be a logical explanation (and get rid of the factor that boobies get cold). Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I doubt many people are going to acknowledge that a race known for being slender and delicate probably isn't going to be top heavy either.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I've never depicted elves (or the version in the game I'm ruining next week, lizardmen) as being top heavy. Thin, narrow shouldered, and flat chested, but potentially well toned.

I also like the idea of heat, it reminds me of lizardmen, who might wear little due to not being as warm blooded. Sure, it's still an excise, but it's one that makes some sense.


Another factor is the type of tunnels. I assumed that the Underdark has a extensive cavern network, so the idea that there might be large enough caverns shaped by whatever to have flat terrain might not be an impossible one.

Yeah, of we're moving away from FR drow I think we can make changes.

I wasn't going to the point of phalanxes, I just saw drow with spears barely their height or shorter used to fight in narrow caverns. I can see drow warriors distraining slashing weapons, because what use is it of it'll hit half the walls in half the tunnels you have to fight in (my underdark being large caverns connected by tunnels that are generally large enough for one or two elves). The priestesses might use them, especially certain knives, but they don't fight in the front lines.

I've also decided that they aren't dark elveselves in my setting, they're cave elves. There's both good and evil drow societies below the earth, looked in an eyeball cycle of hot and cold wars, with cities being destroyed and rebuilt.

Excession
2017-10-18, 05:55 PM
Another factor is the type of tunnels. I assumed that the Underdark has a extensive cavern network, so the idea that there might be large enough caverns shaped by whatever to have flat terrain might not be an impossible one.

Drow are often placed in the middle levels of the underdark IIRC. That puts them in the interesting position of fighting dwarves above them versus monsters from below them.

For dwarves I see large numbers of well organised soldiers, with good equipment and incredibly good fortifications. Not as heavy on magic or ranged, but in their fortresses are so well defended as to make them impenetrable to the Drow. They can strike patrols, merchant traffic, or a dwarf that gets sloppy, and maybe raid forts using unconventional tactics like burrowing animals. Frontal assault is out of the question. OTOH Drow skirmishers can probably dissuade any dwarf inclusions too far beyond those fortresses. Sitting in the dark, wondering if your supply train will ever arrive, as your sentries slowly get picked off is a bad way to go.

The monsters present a number of quite different problems though. You have flying spellcasters like beholders, giant but unorganised hordes of Koa-toa, or mind controlled slave armies led by Illithids, just to name a few. Those big caverns that artists often draw, with a conventional city built on the cavern floor, will be very hard to defend against flyers. And they provide space for hordes to spread out, which is also bad. Tunnel networks seem better. Flying advantage is negated, hordes can be bottled up, and tunnels can be collapsed to cover your retreat from Illithids. You need to make it through the mazes, traps, murder holes, and incredibly dangerous pets, before you can force the Drow into a real fight. At which point you may not be fighting a perfectly organised army, but they are still very good individual fighters, and backed up by a lot of divine and some arcane magic.

2D8HP
2017-10-18, 06:04 PM
....It's giving me an odd urge to listen to some Madonna songs, honestly...I think I'll take nude over fashion disasters. Where's Lolth to fix this when you need her?


:amused:

Since most of that art is from '79 to '81 your not far off!

Throw in some Bauhaus, Grace Jones, and Bowie on that mix tape and you got it down, young Sir!


♫ ♫ ♫
Ain't got no money and I ain't got no hair
But I'm hoping to kick but the planet it's glowing

Ashes to ashes, funk to funky
♫ ♫ ♫

gkathellar
2017-10-18, 06:30 PM
Technically Lolth is the source of their problems. Drow would likely have a significantly more functional society without her. :smalltongue:

Right, this is critical to understand. Lolth is as much a demon as she is a goddess - literally, as she is AFAIK the only power pulling double duty as an exemplar. She's not just chaotic evil, she's an embodiment of chaos and evil and she has designed drow society to be petty, mean, bloodthirsty, and deeply unsatisfying, an exercise in fear, torture, and paranoia in which you are oppressed by those above you and terrified of losing your position to those below you. That it can't be sustained is a feature, not a bug, as this, too, forces its participants to turn to Lolth in both their prayers and their demeanor. Drow are made hard and cruel and vicious and manipulative through a situation of desperation that rewards the alternative with death, and so learn to eagerly propagate that same desperation. And when they flee to the peace and safety of the surface, and some distrusting human wary of the well-earned reputation of the drow bludgeons their head in with a stone, Lolth laughs and laughs because dead drow are her favorite joke and she has won.

If Lolth were to disappear, drow society would collapse in violence and then, probably, get better. Not necessarily less evil, but less actively unpleasant for all parties involved, sure. But she's not going anywhere. She is the Demon Queen of Spiders, and this is her web.

Knaight
2017-10-18, 06:34 PM
Later 70s, most of the 80s... that's about all I can say about it.

They were bad decades for real fashion, it's hardly surprising that fantasy fashion manages to be yet worse.

2D8HP
2017-10-18, 06:45 PM
...Someone kidnap a fashion designer slave, stat!

...Where's Lolth to fix this when you need her?


That cracks me up, thanks!

I was puzzled when someone referred to Erol Otus's art as "conservative", but than I recalled someone posting on some other thread, "When I was a kid people were less flamboyant", meaning the '80's or '90's, which isn't how I remember those times at all!

Seriously kids, Drow fashion = Folsom Street Fair in 1989.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-18, 06:54 PM
Seriously kids, Drow fashion = Folsom Street Fair in 1989.

I take it that the street fair back then had less chaps and gimp suits, else I think you need a fashion designer for your drow.

gkathellar
2017-10-18, 07:01 PM
Which takes us to another fantasy trope I hate:

Evil gods are active, and do stuff, and make plans. Good gods are passive, and give platitudes, and just react.

(And yet evil always loses... because.)

We rarely see one of the good gods telling their followers, "You there, go gather up those drow orphans, and protect them from hate, and raise them with care and generosity and fairness, and show the world that I am greater than Llllothllththh!"

Well, this is actually Eilistraee's (I spelled that right on the first try I'm so excited) whole MO. It's just really hard to do. Most other gods of good probably aren't opposed, but they and their followers have also got more immediate concerns. She's also competing with other drow gods who are evil but less actively malicious. And Lolth actively fights this kind of thing with drow agents ... and also with others, as Lolth is not her only name, and some of her other aspects have followers specifically devoted to killing drow. Even in success, a tiny dent in Lolth's vast, worlds-spanning power is just that: a tiny dent.

In general I do agree that good powers are portrayed as less active and that this is not great. But Eilistraee is worth mentioning, at least. She may be a lesser deity, but she seems scrappy.

Max_Killjoy
2017-10-18, 07:05 PM
Well, this is actually Eilistraee's (I spelled that right on the first try I'm so excited) whole MO. It's just really hard to do. Most other gods of good probably aren't opposed, but they and their followers have also got more immediate concerns. She's also competing with other drow gods who are evil but less actively malicious. And Lolth actively fights this kind of thing with drow agents ... and also with others, as Lolth is not her only name, and some of her other aspects have followers specifically devoted to killing drow. Even in success, a tiny dent in Lolth's vast, worlds-spanning power is just that: a tiny dent.

In general I do agree that good powers are portrayed as less active and that this is not great. But Eilistraee is worth mentioning, at least. She may be a lesser deity, but she seems scrappy.

True, credit to her for that.

Then again, there seems to be an inverse relationship between power and doing something with it for "good" deities. Eilistraee being a scrapper fits.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-18, 07:10 PM
I think when a goddess concerned with only a single race is the only deity people can point to as doing things of the Good Aligned Club, that's a slight issue. Especially since there's already another moon goddess who is literally the goddess of outcasts not doing much.

I'm not a real fan of Elistraee (I'm dyslexic, not going to try). I wonder what other interpretations of gods reaching out to the drow people can come up with.

2D8HP
2017-10-18, 07:34 PM
...back then.....


With thoughts of "Days gone by" I now have a sudden craving for a clove cigarette and some Andre "champagne".


....I think you need a fashion designer for your drow.


We all have our "headcanon" for the Drow:


Drow?

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/roadwarrior/images/a/a2/Imperial_guards.jpg/revision/latest/thumbnail-down/width/1157/height/764?cb=20160713090823


Didn't Immortan Joe have white hair?


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c5/29/5d/c5295ddc125f7b138e7b4250fd35cb73.gif


Maybe there is something to this Madness after all...



(did you see what I did there?)

And yes, undercommon has an Australian twang.

afroakuma
2017-10-18, 08:36 PM
Where's Lolth to fix this when you need her?

Lolth couldn't fix herself a sandwich with two slices of bread and a jar of peanut butter. :smalltongue:

Excession
2017-10-18, 09:09 PM
I think when a goddess concerned with only a single race is the only deity people can point to as doing things of the Good Aligned Club, that's a slight issue. Especially since there's already another moon goddess who is literally the goddess of outcasts not doing much.

I'm not a real fan of Elistraee (I'm dyslexic, not going to try). I wonder what other interpretations of gods reaching out to the drow people can come up with.

To follow on with a theme, the Drow don't need another hero deity.

Making this up right now, but here goes. Replacing Lolth with reliance on another goddess wouldn't solve the problem, and might just twist that god to be just as messed up, depending on how you prefer your deity ↔ worshipper feedback. Fix the Drow, get them organised, give them a functional bureaucracy to replace the church and its chaos, make them follow some laws for a change, and Lolth either gets fixed with them or fades into irrelevance naturally. I'd keep Eilistraee, but make her roughly lawful neutral and purposefully not interested in day to day control of the Drow. She wants to free them, not just own them herself. As a bonus, Eilistraee gets to be something unique as a lawful leaning elven deity.

Dragonexx
2017-10-18, 11:20 PM
Honestly, the only real thing that bugs me about Drow is that the way Driders are described is Backasswards. As punishment for failing Lolth you are... made more powerful and more like her in appearance. Seriously, it seems like becoming a drider should be a reward.

Mordaedil
2017-10-19, 01:10 AM
Honestly, the only real thing that bugs me about Drow is that the way Driders are described is Backasswards. As punishment for failing Lolth you are... made more powerful and more like her in appearance. Seriously, it seems like becoming a drider should be a reward.

It would be if she was a sensible being. The thing about Lolth is that incredibly, she's really insistant on certain things about their society that doesn't make a lick of sense. Like, everyone who tries to frame it as justified vengeance against Corellon Larethian is actually branded a heretic in their societies eyes. They are really adamant that they were once surface dwellers punished for a crime sent underground and never the reverse, which would make sense. And she doesn't seem to like her followers much at all, frequently punishing success and discourage more than token resistance against surface dwellers.

But it makes sense if you see Lolth as a scorned lover. Her actions lack meaning because they are made out of frustration of being unable to be with the one she loves and her entire society reflects this.

gkathellar
2017-10-19, 05:02 AM
Honestly, the only real thing that bugs me about Drow is that the way Driders are described is Backasswards. As punishment for failing Lolth you are... made more powerful and more like her in appearance. Seriously, it seems like becoming a drider should be a reward.

Mainly it's a status thing. It's Lolth saying, "You're not useful enough to me as a priestess, better turn you into an abomination." From there, the drider can't really advance, and loses any temporal power they may once have held. They get personal strength, sure, but it's really more of an ironic thing.

Anonymouswizard
2017-10-19, 06:33 AM
Here's an idea, Lolth has so many problems because drow aren't a social species in the same way other sapients in the setting are. They're still pack animals, but unlike other sapient species they saw no need to grow larger and larger packs, instead packs/families will split above a certain size and some drow will abandon their pack and join another in order to keep genetic diversity up.

Lolth's bizarre society is because she's herding cats. Drow backstabbing is from being forced into too small a space for the number.

TheTeaMustFlow
2017-10-19, 06:35 AM
I think when a goddess concerned with only a single race is the only deity people can point to as doing things of the Good Aligned Club, that's a slight issue. Especially since there's already another moon goddess who is literally the goddess of outcasts not doing much.

I'm not a real fan of Elistraee (I'm dyslexic, not going to try). I wonder what other interpretations of gods reaching out to the drow people can come up with.

One of my perennial ideas for a character is a Drow cleric who has realised the madness of Lolth and seen the light of a surface deity... specifically, Hextor (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hextor). She now seeks to save her people by spreading the gospel of unified tyranny and industrialised totalitarianism. Drow Lenin, basically, or a more evil version of Ataturk.

Incidentally, I much preferred it in the older editions where it was only the Drow ruling classes that were uniformly evil, while their oppressed commoners tended more towards neutrality than anything else. Made much more sense than all of them down to the beggars acting like they were kicked out of House Lannister for being too backstabby.

gkathellar
2017-10-19, 07:06 AM
One of my perennial ideas for a character is a Drow cleric who has realised the madness of Lolth and seen the light of a surface deity... specifically, Hextor (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hextor). She now seeks to save her people by spreading the gospel of unified tyranny and industrialised totalitarianism. Drow Lenin, basically, or a more evil version of Ataturk.

Hell, just about any deity would be an improvement, even another Chaotic Evil one. Plenty of gods happen to be evil, but that's incidental to being tyrannical or violent or embodying the relentlessness of death or whatever's in their portfolio. Very few wake up in the morning and say, "how can I be evil and treacherous today?"


Lolth couldn't fix herself a sandwich with two slices of bread and a jar of peanut butter. :smalltongue:

She gets stuck on the word "fix," alas. Gives her the heebie jeebies.

TheTeaMustFlow
2017-10-19, 07:34 AM
Hell, just about any deity would be an improvement, even another Chaotic Evil one. Plenty of gods happen to be evil, but that's incidental to being tyrannical or violent or embodying the relentlessness of death or whatever's in their portfolio. Very few wake up in the morning and say, "how can I be evil and treacherous today?"

Oh yeah, even Gruumsh is a better class of deity - say what you will, but he actually properly cares about the orcs, rather than being the multiverses worst tsundere. I just find the idea of societal uplift via fascism or communism more amusing.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-19, 02:00 PM
Seriously, it seems like becoming a drider should be a reward.

I could see it both ways, as the drider may...Well, I don't think it's banging any male drow any time soon shall we say. I would assume that if you are trying to breed the ultimate race you'll need them to pop out children every so often, so it could also be an end of a legacy and removal from a House.

Through I think in 4e, it got changed to being a reward. I can definitely understand the argument of an ironic punishment, but if you're going to worship spiders that much, I feel like some body shaping is in order else it's just a wasted opportunity! Let's at least add some extra eyes!

Samzat
2017-10-19, 02:34 PM
Truth be told, I like the idea of the High ranking Drow being ruthless suits, while the lower class are dissatisfied but immobile pawns in their great games.

I think that the explanation should be that drow outfits are skimpy because lolth wants the drow to bump each other off regularly for her amusement, and its easier if all the drow, including males, wear silly skimpy clothing.

Sure it would be taken less seriously, but hey why not use them as a relief from the more serious creatures of the underdark

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-19, 02:40 PM
I think that the explanation should be that drow outfits are skimpy because lolth wants the drow to bump each other off regularly for her amusement, and its easier if all the drow, including males, wear silly skimpy clothing.

Drow breeding should follow the same rules as cat breeding: If you have to do more to get the idiots to breed then simply shove them into the same room, something is wrong with that pedigree.

Through this does bring up a point, why aren't the males forced to show off the goodies in a matriarchal society? That part rarely comes into play despite people trying to justify chainmail bikinis on the ladies.

Anonymouswizard
2017-10-19, 02:56 PM
Drow breeding should follow the same rules as cat breeding: If you have to do more to get the idiots to breed then simply shove them into the same room, something is wrong with that pedigree.

Through this does bring up a point, why aren't the males forced to show off the goodies in a matriarchal society? That part rarely comes into play despite people trying to justify chainmail bikinis on the ladies.

Speak for yourself, some of us use the fantasyland portals (which definitely do not exist, I'm surprised you even mentioned them) to see the scantily clad male drow.

It's as I've always said, if you want women in chainmail bikinis give me pretty boys in chainmail speedos.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-19, 03:01 PM
It's as I've always said, if you want women in chainmail bikinis give me pretty boys in chainmail speedos.

You I like.

And remember, if there is nudity in a culture, it should be applied to all people, male or female. And yes, having a nudist culture means older women are also naked goddamnit.

Anonymouswizard
2017-10-19, 03:11 PM
You I like.

And remember, if there is nudity in a culture, it should be applied to all people, male or female. And yes, having a nudist culture means older women are also naked goddamnit.

Yep. Maybe I have an easier time with the gender bit because I'm bi, but this really doesn't seem hard for me. No, Conan doesn't count, yes he's hot but that's not what the nudity is about.

I must admit I don't make nudist cultures in my settings because of the older people bit, but I agree 100%. Go all the way or go home.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-19, 03:17 PM
Yep. Maybe I have an easier time with the gender bit because I'm bi, but this really doesn't seem hard for me. No, Conan doesn't count, yes he's hot but that's not what the nudity is about.

...You and I have vastly different standards for the attractiveness of a male.

But back on topic, I think another issue with Lolth is that motive is really not so great. I believe the standard version is that she got pissy at her husband?

Anonymouswizard
2017-10-19, 03:23 PM
...You and I have vastly different standards for the attractiveness of a male.

I said hot, not attractive, for me it's two different things.

(Or in other words, I understand why people find him attractive, but I personally prefer pretty boys to muscle mountains*.)

* Who, as far as I can tell, are primarily attractive to other men or something?

Irennan
2017-10-19, 03:55 PM
To follow on with a theme, the Drow don't need another hero deity.

Making this up right now, but here goes. Replacing Lolth with reliance on another goddess wouldn't solve the problem, and might just twist that god to be just as messed up, depending on how you prefer your deity ↔ worshipper feedback. Fix the Drow, get them organised, give them a functional bureaucracy to replace the church and its chaos, make them follow some laws for a change, and Lolth either gets fixed with them or fades into irrelevance naturally. I'd keep Eilistraee, but make her roughly lawful neutral and purposefully not interested in day to day control of the Drow. She wants to free them, not just own them herself. As a bonus, Eilistraee gets to be something unique as a lawful leaning elven deity.

The beauty of Eilistraee is that her way of freeing the drow is based on making sure that they're free to choose their path.

Her whole MO is based on her understanding of them. In her story, Eilistraee chose to be "one of them", to share their fate when she was but a girl, in order to be by their side in the dark times that she knew would come. Once she made that choice, despite all the crap that she was given (even by the drow themselves), she never walked away from that path, she never abandoned the drow or gave up on her battle. Despite the way they're raised and their society works, Eilistraee can feel and understand their desire for a better life, she can still see their beauty that has been lost to darkness (even when basically all others see them as monsters), and gives all herself to set that spark alight again.

She does by opening the eyes of the drow. Her "song", so to speak, reaches the souls of all dark elves at some point in their life, and resonates deeply with many of them, because it shows them and makes them feel what they have forgotten or been denied, but that many secretly long for. Eilistraee shows them the sheer joy of existence, of freely chasing their dreams and following their hearts, when they've been pretty much forced down a fixed path by Lolthite dogma in their whole existence. She gives them uncoditional love, appreciating them for what they are, despite everything, when they're taught that they have no value outside of status and being "meat for Lolth" (and when they've grown up without knowing the warmth of a gentle caress). She shows them the strength in sisterhood/brotherhood and caring for each other, when they've been forced to paranoidly watch their back and pliot against everything and everyone.

Eilistraee wants the drow to see all that they've been missing on in life, to make them *understand* that a different existence is possible and fulfilling (unlike they're conditioned into believing), and therefore, once their eyes are open, to find their path in life (one that doesn't involve being cruel a******s). She does it gently, even subtly, without forcing herself or any choice on the drow. Basically, she is there in every important moment of their journey, helping them to rediscover life, experience it like they never have, helping them in practical ways, providing comfort when they feel defeated or alone, etc... but never pressuring anything and letting thigns come naturally (for example, she may scare off aggressors, or make her presence felt when a drow is alone or disheartened, even provide some magic. However, she won't ask to worship her, do what she says, or w/e. At times--unless you already know her--you won't even be able to tell that it was her, just that you are not alone). You see this well in the Starlights and Shadows novels, in which Eilistraee is present in many important moments of the MC's personal quest, she enables the MC to make her choices, to learn to see the world in a wildly different way, you can really see the goddess' hand, but it's almost subtle.

She's been doing this since basically forever, as she has taken the role of a mother goddess for her people back when they were exiled, helping them re-learning to live.

It's beautiful IMO. In short, Eilistraee leads the drow out of their prison (and, weirdly, comfort zone) to make see the world, to expand their horizons and open their eyes, and then forge their own story once they're free from the chains of Lolth's dogma and brainwashing.

Law and bureaucracy won't do this for the drow, because their their life is so full of random, whacky, oppressive rules set by olth and her clergy, that it's not even fun (even their hairstyle can be determined by status...). They live an oppressed existence, they feel a need for freedom to express themselves and celebrate life, and that's why IMO Eilistraee is just perfect for them.

Irennan
2017-10-19, 03:58 PM
To follow on with a theme, the Drow don't need another hero deity.

Making this up right now, but here goes. Replacing Lolth with reliance on another goddess wouldn't solve the problem, and might just twist that god to be just as messed up, depending on how you prefer your deity ↔ worshipper feedback. Fix the Drow, get them organised, give them a functional bureaucracy to replace the church and its chaos, make them follow some laws for a change, and Lolth either gets fixed with them or fades into irrelevance naturally. I'd keep Eilistraee, but make her roughly lawful neutral and purposefully not interested in day to day control of the Drow. She wants to free them, not just own them herself. As a bonus, Eilistraee gets to be something unique as a lawful leaning elven deity.

When you say that reliance on another goddess is problematic, there are also 2 things to consider.

One is how oppressive and tyrannical Lolth is. She controls every aspect of her the lives of her followers. With all the brainwashing and censorship going around, with drow being executed just for as much as speaking something that Lolth doesn't approve, it would be incredibly difficult for new ideas to ever form or spread (and therefore no new kind of society to ever be born) without someone helping injecting them in the current society, and proving that they work. Lolth actively works to prevent the drow from realizing that their society has been engineered by her to make them suffer (and even to impair their potential). And that's also what Eilistraee (and Vhaeraun too) is there for.

Second, when escaping Lolth and trying to find a new home on the surface/create new communities, the drow will generally find themselves lost. They may even fear the surface, they know that it is a hostile world, they may have troubles surviving. All this can be a discouragement from even trying. That's why Eilistraee makes sure that the drow are supported in this, she makes drow communities possible there, as she helps nurturing her people and gain the tools and knowledge to prosper on the surface (this is also part of her mothering of the drow as Ed Greenwood intended it).

I think that it does make sense, from a world-building perspective (especially when you consider that Eilistraee has been tied to the drow since the beginning of their history, so she's not a goddess that popped out of nowhere to help the dark elves).

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-19, 04:06 PM
Her whole MO is based on her understanding of them. In her story, Eilistraee chose to be "one of them", to share their fate, in order to be by their side in the dark times that she knew would come. Once she made that choice, despite all the crap that she was given (even by the drow themselves), she never walked away from that path, she never abandoned the drow or gave up on her battle. Despite the way they're raised and their society works, Eilistraee can feel and understand their desire for a better life, she can still see their beauty that has been lost to darkness (even when basically all others see them as monsters), and gives all herself to set that spark alight again.

The problem I see with this is that this is never expanded upon. There's a few lines suggesting that she shared the fate of the others, but it really doesn't make sense other then banishment. Banishment from what isn't actually described (at least in third edition). She still counts them as allies and doesn't seem to suffer much other then this nebulous banishment. And banishment isn't the problem of the drow, it is systematic and carefully conducted abuse, trauma and manipulation.

And the point that even elves don't take the idea of her seriously sorta makes you wonder which god had the idiot ball to forget the daughter of the leader of their own pantheon trying to fight their arch-nemesis, good one guys.

Irennan
2017-10-19, 04:20 PM
The problem I see with this is that this is never expanded upon. There's a few lines suggesting that she shared the fate of the others, but it really doesn't make sense other then banishment. Banishment from what isn't actually described (at least in third edition). She still counts them as allies and doesn't seem to suffer much other then this nebulous banishment. And banishment isn't the problem of the drow, it is systematic and carefully conducted abuse, trauma and manipulation.

And the point that even elves don't take the idea of her seriously sorta makes you wonder which god had the idiot ball to forget the daughter of the leader of their own pantheon trying to fight their arch-nemesis, good one guys.

In 2e it was described as such (as a willing choice to follow Vhaeraun and Lolth). After that banishment, Eilistraee wandered Toril, the new home of the dark elves. She abandoned the comfort and safety of her life in Arvandor to try and protect the dark elves from the evil powers that had set their eyes on them. She fought (without anyone's support) Vhaeraun's and Ghaunadaur's infuence (and then Lolth's too) in Ilythiir (and she was also hunted for that--it is pointed out in Evermeet: Island of Elves) to provide the dark elves another path. Even as her power collapsed and the Dark Disaster exterminated most of her followers, she too became drow after the Crown Wars, just to keep fighting for them, as one of them (taking that role of a mother goddess that I mentioned before--and this choice is also beautiful to me, as it acknowledges that--once you're born as drow--that is your identity and part of your are, even if considered a cursed form, and that you deserve to be accepted for that. And Eilistraee is in fact very strong on acceptance).

After that, even as she was lone against forces far greater than her, she never once gave up on that. She could have remained an elven deity, gather far more followers, power and so on as a goddess of beauty, song, dance, moonlight, hunt etc... Yet she became drow and fully dedicated herself to her people, and has been there for them when all others would hate and fear them (even taking care of the dark elves in the small everyday things--like providing food, lighting the path for those who are lost, "listening" to the emotions that they gather in the day, as they release them in a free-form messagge for her in the Evensong).

Btw, Eilistraee is allied to the Seldarine, but their relationship is described as strained. They don't like her much--and it shows in total lack of support. The justification for that is that it's a consequence of how divided elves and drow are, which basically means that it's due to Eilistraee also becoming a drow.

Irennan
2017-10-19, 04:24 PM
In short, Eilistraee did and does a lot of things that show how close she is to the drow, and how much they mean to her. She could be enjoying her position and safety from her enemies within the Seldarine, yet she stands for the dark elves.

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-19, 04:24 PM
In 2e it was described as such (as a willing choice to follow Vhaeraun and Lolth). After that banishment, Eilistraee wandered Toril, the new home of the dark elves. She abandoned the comfort and ease of her life in Arvandor to try and protect the dark evles from the evil powers that had set their eyes on them. She fought (without anyone's support) Vhaeraun's and Ghaunadaur's infuence (and then Lolth's too) in Ilythiir (and she was also hunted for that--it is pointed out in Evermeet: Island of Elves) to provide the dark elves another path. Even as her power collapsed and the Dark Disaster exterminated most of her followers, she too became drow after the Crown Wars, just to keep fighting for them, as one of them (taking that role of a mother goddess that I mentioned before--and this choice is also beautiful to me, as it acknowledges that--once you're born as drow--that is your identity and part of your are, even if considered a cursed form, and that you deserve to be accepted for that. And Eilistraee is in fact very strong on acceptance).

1) The good aligned elven gods were perfectly willing to sit on their butts in comfort while the drow suffered. Maybe Lolth had a point with these morons...

2) The idea that a person should just accept a curse and be encouraged to just accept it by the daughter of the person who placed it upon you is sorta creepy to me. Oh, it's fine you were cursed for something you never did and condemned to live in suffering and fear because the good elven gods are too comfy, but don't worry, we'll accept you for the cursed form you've been forced to take by my dad! It's all swell.

Irennan
2017-10-19, 04:31 PM
1) The good aligned elven gods were perfectly willing to sit on their butts in comfort while the drow suffered. Maybe Lolth had a point with these morons...

They didn't move a finger to help Eilistraee against Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur in Ilythiir, they didn't move a finger when nearly all of Eilistraee's followers were exterminated by the High Magic that destroyed Miyeritar, but they swiftly punished the whole race when they found out that the Ilythiiri (and only rulers/nobles at that) had been corrupted by Lolth. And Mystra has done (and still does now) far more than they do to help Eilistraee. I honestly kinda agree.


2) The idea that a person should just accept a curse and be encouraged to just accept it by the daughter of the person who placed it upon you is sorta creepy to me. Oh, it's fine you were cursed for something you never did and condemned to live in suffering and fear because the good elven gods are too comfy, but don't worry, we'll accept you for the cursed form you've been forced to take by my dad! It's all swell.

No, that's not the point. Eilistraee knew that such form would become part of the identity of the dark elves. When you're born as a drow, why should that be a problem at all? I mean, you wouldn't see yourself as cursed, only the rest of the world would, and it wouldn't be right to force you to change the body you were born with for such a lame reason, just to be accepted. Eilistraee became a drow because there would be a time when the drow would need to know that they are not alone in the hostile surface world that they're returning to. They are also taught that they're worthless aside from Lolth's favor, so being loved for what they are is a major plus.

Irennan
2017-10-19, 04:38 PM
On top of that, the drow are quite proud of their drow-ness, and that includes even non-evil ones. Eilistraee doesn't want the drow to change that (again, it wouldn't be right), she instead works to make that drow-ness a symbol of creation, not merely of cruelty (or self-destruction). To make the result a curse into a beacon of hope is something that I find beautiful (even if a bit overly idealistic, but that's part of Eilistraee's character).

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-19, 04:44 PM
Shouldn't the drow learn to love themselves not for their race, but what they truly are? Drow are taught from a young age to think of things in terms of race, so isn't the idea of looking past that important if they are to ally with other races?

And what if a drow didn't want to be a drow anymore? It's the form that Lolths favors. They might not want to be reminded of that everytime they look into a mirror. What would Eilistraee do in this case, since in their particular case they didn't want to be loved for being a drow, but to become something else. Even the word 'Drow' means traitor in their language. Why should a drow accept a cursed form as a base part of their identity, rather then strive to become something else? It could be changed into a symbol of something else, but to many, it might not be a drow anymore since so much of it's nature is changed. Why would anyone want to bear the sign of a curse that they weren't responsible for?

While this portrayal of Ellistraee isn't that bad, it does cast the other elven gods as morons who probably need to move over and give their divinity to someone else, and gives Ellistraee a rather narrow way to help all drow. Given that the drow are pretty numerous and discouraged from different modes of thinking, this seems rather unfortunate for people trying to become better people.

Irennan
2017-10-19, 04:55 PM
Shouldn't the drow learn to love themselves not for their race, but what they truly are? Drow are taught from a young age to think of things in terms of race, so isn't the idea of looking past that important if they are to ally with other races?

And what if a drow didn't want to be a drow anymore? It's the form that Lolths favors. They might not want to be reminded of that everytime they look into a mirror. What would Eilistraee do in this case, since in their particular case they didn't want to be loved for being a drow, but to become something else. Even the word 'Drow' means traitor in their language. Why should a drow accept a cursed form as a base part of their identity, rather then strive to become something else? It could be changed into a symbol of something else, but to many, it might not be a drow anymore since so much of it's nature is changed. Why would anyone want to bear the sign of a curse that they weren't responsible for?

I never said that Eilistraee wants the drow to love themselves *just* (or mainly) because of race, but their drowness is indeed a part of what they are. Since they start as drow, and since many like what they are--for the goddess who is trying to open their eyes and help them rediscover life, it is very important to show that her love is indeed unconditional, that she understands, that she is herself one of them (and I mean, for a more pragmatic reason, given how most drow are conditioned to think, she'd only be limiting her chances of success by remaining her pre-curse dark elf self).

Striving to be something different usually doesn't come in the form of changing skin color, but if they want a different appearance, then magic exists: I'm sure that it can happen (it has). Another take is to show the drow that they are indeed the masters of their life and can make what they want out of their drow-ness. Turning something that may be seen as a symbol of Lolth's favor (and of your oppression) into a symbol of a people who are experiencing their rebirth through creation is also a beautiful thing. It also weakens Lolth's grip: she just happens to be a drow, but the drow aren't modeled after her. They can find their own, different path, as drow. Basically, striving to be something else becomes redefining what it is to be drow, letting the beauty of a broken people blossom again (which is part of what Eilistraee fights for).

Besides, more pertinent to your question about her sharing the fate of her people, it's not like Eilistraee cursed them or agreed with the curse. Confronted with the situation, she did what she felt was best for the drow. She chose to be one of them, to be by their side in dark times.


While this portrayal of Ellistraee isn't that bad, it does cast the other elven gods as morons who probably need to move over and give their divinity to someone else, and gives Ellistraee a rather narrow way to help all drow. Given that the drow are pretty numerous and discouraged from different modes of thinking, this seems rather unfortunate for people trying to become better people.

In the Realms, the elven gods have always been extremely distant and slow to act. That's unfortunate indeed, because it devalues them as characters, and because that makes it even harder for Eilistraee. I mean, there are many elves that spread around the idea that Eilistraee is actually only a voice created by the Lolthites to prepare traps for them, and some find her problematic because the existence of Eilistraee implies that the drow are not guilty of all the tragedy of elven history (which they like to believe). It's kinda f***ed up, honestly, but it has the interesting side effect of making the drow-elves matter far from black&white.

Max_Killjoy
2017-10-19, 05:42 PM
Shouldn't the drow learn to love themselves not for their race, but what they truly are?


One would think...

Mordaedil
2017-10-20, 05:14 AM
Shouldn't the blacks learn to love themselves not for their race, but what they truly are? Blacks are taught from a young age to think of things in terms of race, so isn't the idea of looking past that important if they are to ally with other races?

And what if a black didn't want to be a black anymore? It's the form that the devil favors. They might not want to be reminded of that everytime they look into a mirror.

Find & replace makes things clearer.

EDIT: To be clear, I don't mean this to cast shade on Honest Tiefling, but rather to show how they might see it, when you make it about race in that way.

Max_Killjoy
2017-10-20, 08:14 AM
Let's not drown another thread in the toxic mire of identity politics...

Samzat
2017-10-20, 08:23 AM
Let's not drown another thread in the toxic mire of identity politics...

Give this man a medal!

Frozen_Feet
2017-10-20, 09:32 AM
Drows are a spoof on Black Widows. You know, the species of spider? Females of which are red & black & bigger than the male? And are often told to eat the male after mating?

You'd think the fact they worship a spider goddess would give it away.

Anyways. Skimpy clothing. In the few FR novels I've read, it is mentioned that men are forced to show the goods before women as it suits their whim. I wouldn't know if official artwork reflects this, I do not consume a whole lot of official drow art. In fan works there's no shortage of drow beefcake, though.

As for the women, we all know the out-of-universe reason is that someone on the art team has hots for BDSM aesthetic. Or maybe they secretly wanted to be a fashion designer for women's lingerie. Whatever.

In universe, the impractical reveling clothing is a Veblenian status symbol. That is: high-ranking clerics forgo armor as a statement of confidence towards the power of Lolth and their own. That is, "I can prance around in undies and you still couldn't kill me if you tried". Old women do it even more than the young ones, we the readers are spared from contemplating it too much because drow coincidentally also are ageless elven hotties.

It may sound absurd, but this exact thing happens in real life. Human men forgo proper safety clothing to flaunt their muscles and gain macho cred. Human women put on skimpy dresses and heavy make-up to make other women green with envy. A drow priestess in that flowy dress is the opposite gender counterpart to a macho dude going "REAL MEN need no safety glasses, helmets or earplugs. Now watch sweat drip down my manly chest as I rock this chainsaw!"

Or, more generally: "I can afford to do this seemingly stupid thing because I am so much better than you".

It is, ironically, one of the more realistic aspects of drow culture.

Akisa
2017-10-20, 10:10 AM
Drows are a spoof on Black Widows. You know, the species of spider? Females of which are red & black & bigger than the male? And are often told to eat the male after mating?

You'd think the fact they worship a spider goddess would give it away.

Anyways. Skimpy clothing. In the few FR novels I've read, it is mentioned that men are forced to show the goods before women as it suits their whim. I wouldn't know if official artwork reflects this, I do not consume a whole lot of official drow art. In fan works there's no shortage of drow beefcake, though.

As for the women, we all know the out-of-universe reason is that someone on the art team has hots for BDSM aesthetic. Or maybe they secretly wanted to be a fashion designer for women's lingerie. Whatever.

In universe, the impractical reveling clothing is a Veblenian status symbol. That is: high-ranking clerics forgo armor as a statement of confidence towards the power of Lolth and their own. That is, "I can prance around in undies and you still couldn't kill me if you tried". Old women do it even more than the young ones, we the readers are spared from contemplating it too much because drow coincidentally also are ageless elven hotties.

It may sound absurd, but this exact thing happens in real life. Human men forgo proper safety clothing to flaunt their muscles and gain macho cred. Human women put on skimpy dresses and heavy make-up to make other women green with envy. A drow priestess in that flowy dress is the opposite gender counterpart to a macho dude going "REAL MEN need no safety glasses, helmets or earplugs. No watch sweat drip down my manly chest as I rock this chainsaw!"

Or, more generally: "I can afford to do this seemingly stupid thing because I am so much better than you".

It is, ironically, one of the more realistic aspects of drow culture.

That and those same high level clerics can generally quickly heal themselves unlike those shirtless chainsaw men.

gkathellar
2017-10-20, 10:21 AM
But back on topic, I think another issue with Lolth is that motive is really not so great. I believe the standard version is that she got pissy at her husband?

She was formerly Araushnee, elven goddess of destiny, and wife of Corellon. Accounts vary as to the exact causes (some suggest Corellon cheated on her or was otherwise a jerk, others say Gruumsh laid a spell on her), but she ultimately coveted her husband's position as head of the Seldarine and tried to assassinate him with the help of Gruumsh. This did not go well for anyone involved, leading to her banishment and that of the drow. Some have suggested that as the former goddess of elven destiny, she took the ambition and energy of the elves with her on her way down.


1) The good aligned elven gods were perfectly willing to sit on their butts in comfort while the drow suffered. Maybe Lolth had a point with these morons...

Quite a few of the Seldarine aren't good, but yeah it's not a pleasant piece of their history either way. FWIW, the elven gods most likely saw the original drow as willingly following Araushnee even after her treason, and didn't want them to be able to call themselves elves after siding with her and Gruumsh against the pantheon. At the time, I expect the drow as a new people were just an afterthought, and I doubt anyone could have fathomed just how crazy things would get under Lolth. Now it's just a lost cause, as the situation is so far gone that any hope of reconciliation seems lost.


2) The idea that a person should just accept a curse and be encouraged to just accept it by the daughter of the person who placed it upon you is sorta creepy to me. Oh, it's fine you were cursed for something you never did and condemned to live in suffering and fear because the good elven gods are too comfy, but don't worry, we'll accept you for the cursed form you've been forced to take by my dad! It's all swell.

It's meant as a messianic thing, I think. Whatever her opinion of the curse, she chose to suffer it herself in solidarity, and to devote her existence to trying to make things better. Eilistraee's doctrine isn't that things are all sunshine and ponies, it's that the possibility for joy exists even in the height of suffering, that people do not deserve the cruelties of circumstance, and that even the wicked are worthy of compassion. The reason the drow can find this at all believable is that she's one of them.


In the Realms, the elven gods have always been extremely distant and slow to act. That's unfortunate indeed, because it devalues them as characters, and because that makes it even harder for Eilistraee.

One might hypothesize that this is in part because of the loss of Araushnee and her kids, as they were embodiments of destiny, initiative, and compassion. The Seldarine are kind of an incomplete pantheon under the circumstances.


I mean, there are many elves that spread around the idea that Eilistraee is actually only a voice created by the Lolthites to prepare traps for them, and some find her problematic because the existence of Eilistraee implies that the drow are not guilty of all the tragedy of elven history (which they like to believe).

EDIT: My favorite, non-canon take is that this is partly fueled by the elven goddess (not Seldarine, I should be clear) Megwandir - whose doctrine is basically, "the world will only be right when all the drow are dead."

Megwandir, of course, is an alias for Lolth, because Lolth is really good at this.

Akisa
2017-10-20, 10:40 AM
She was formerly Araushnee, elven goddess of destiny, and wife of Corellon. Accounts vary as to the exact causes (some suggest Corellon cheated on her or was otherwise a jerk, others say Gruumsh laid a spell on her), but she ultimately coveted her husband's position as head of the Seldarine and tried to assassinate him with the help of Gruumsh. This did not go well for anyone involved, leading to her banishment and that of the drow. Some have suggested that as the former goddess of elven destiny, she took the ambition and energy of the elves with her on her way down.


Actually well it's confirmed Araushnee cheated on Corellon in the forgotten realm.

Femmarel Mestarine (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Fenmarel_Mestarine)


Fenmarel Mestarine was Lolth's adulterous partner prior to her betrayal. He was among the first to be seduced by her promise of power but managed to get back on track with the rest of the Seldarine before the betrayal became anything serious, and believed that Corellon Larethian had a bad opinion about him for his history.[2]

Pronounceable
2017-10-20, 11:07 AM
Femmarel Mestarine (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Fenmarel_Mestarine)
"but only the beauty and gentleness of Sehanine Moonbow can bring him into the council halls of the Seldarine."
That dude has a boss's wife fetish. This is totes canon and not in any way my interpretation.


Anywho, there's actually 2 Lolths. The old school Demon Queen of Spiders Lolth and the Corellon's Ex Lolth, much like West's Batman and Modern Batman. Sure they're technically the same thing but really not. Old Lolth is bad cos spiders and underground dwellers and black skinned creatures and matriarchal societies are bad (she's also an actual demon, which means she's literally made of chaotic evil). Neo Lolth is nasty but kinda admirable cos she was wronged by her kin and also claiming all the things that made the old one bad are bad may not slide nowadays. This splitting happened because times have changed. Trying to reconcile them will end up painting one version over with the other. Y'all should pick one and stick with it.

gkathellar
2017-10-20, 01:01 PM
Okay, okay, geez. You want the long version, you can have the long version.


The Fall of Araushnee
It is not entirely clear what caused Araushnee to turn against her lover (and some myths say her husband) Corellon. Some believe that she was jealous of his dalliances with the other elven goddesses. Others trace her corruption to a long-vanished force of evil known as the Dark God, and note that this entity and others like him have had a hand in divine corruption before. The drow will tell you - if they're in a talking mood - that she cast aside Corellon as weak and cursed his favored elves to live on the surface. The elves will tell you that she was always cruel and ambitious and harbored mutinous drives long-hidden.

There is a mote of truth in each of these tales - Araushnee was driven and passionate; she did indeed grow jealous of her husband's affairs; she was tainted through the agency of an evil power; and her fall did curse the surface elves.

It was an opportunistic evil indeed that stole upon Araushnee while she lay in the depths of jealousy. A power of vengeance, harboring great enmity toward Corellon: the orc god Gruumsh. With a single dark thread in her web of destinies, Gruumsh planted the desire for revenge in her breast and stoked her evil feelings until they became a raging fire. Gruumsh worked with subtlety and patience, disguising his handiwork with devastating wars that drew Corellon's attentions elsewhere. When Araushnee appeared in his court at Nishrek with an offer of allegiance to take down the father of elvenkind, Gruumsh knew his plan had succeeded.

Araushnee seduced the wild god Fenmarel Mestarine to her quarter, and with poison turned her child Vhaeraun to evil. Her attacks began with stealth; bending fate to give Gruumsh the edge in a duel with Corellon; convincing the Faerunian power Malar to harry the weakened elven deity and imprisoning Sehanine Moonbow, her greatest rival, who had discovered through a contrite Fenmarel the schemes of the corrupted goddess. Araushnee and her allies struggled against the Seldarine and eventually broke, but she had cornered the still-weak Corellon. Hanali Celanil and Aerdrie Faenya liberated Sehanine and the three joined their powers to defeat Araushnee, whom Corellon stripped of divinity and cast into the Abyss.

Still a powerful entity, the fallen goddess took for herself a new name: Lolth, the Demon Queen of Spiders. Consolidating her power in the depths of the evil plane, she emerged anew as a goddess and an eternal foe of the elves and their gods. Lolth has proven a most terrible foe, whose destructive wrath drives at the very heart of the elven people and has laid low many others who have stood in her way. Lolth is a tremendous force of evil who colludes with the most powerful demon lords, and her involvement in their works has time and time again proven horrific for the worlds on which they prey.

Irennan
2017-10-20, 02:15 PM
Whatever her opinion of the curse, she chose to suffer it herself in solidarity, and to devote her existence to trying to make things better. Eilistraee's doctrine isn't that things are all sunshine and ponies, it's that the possibility for joy exists even in the height of suffering, that people do not deserve the cruelties of circumstance, and that even the wicked are worthy of compassion. The reason the drow can find this at all believable is that she's one of them.

Eilistraee could have never been ok with, because--even setting aside that it goes against her beliefs--it targeted everyone: guilty and innocent, followers of Lolth and her own followers alike. That said, you put it very well.


One might hypothesize that this is in part because of the loss of Araushnee and her kids, as they were embodiments of destiny, initiative, and compassion. The Seldarine are kind of an incomplete pantheon under the circumstances.

It may be so, but it's IMO still unsatisfying, because it diminish the other gods' own initiative.


This is partly fueled by the elven goddess (not Seldarine, I should be clear) Megwandir - whose doctrine is basically, "the world will only be right when all the drow are dead."

Megwandir, of course, is an alias for Lolth, because Lolth is really good at this.

Woah, is this canon? I thought that Shevarash was the drow hater among the elven gods.

gkathellar
2017-10-20, 02:40 PM
Woah, is this canon? I thought that Shevarash was the drow hater among the elven gods.

Just checked with the gentledemon I got it from. He says it's his own idea, so it's not canon - certainly fits, but not canonical. Will edit my post upthread.

Megwandir is an old name for Lolth, though!

Irennan
2017-10-20, 03:55 PM
Just checked with the gentledemon I got it from. He says it's his own idea, so it's not canon - certainly fits, but not canonical. Will edit my post upthread.

Megwandir is an old name for Lolth, though!

I was wondering why I had never read about a goddess so important before. Nonetheless, it's a quite neat concept, and it explains the senseless hostility towards Eilistraee.

Grytorm
2017-10-20, 07:23 PM
Just wanted to share some of my thoughts though not really cannon stuff or anything.

1) For Eilistraee and the rest of the Drow pantheon, always bugged me when different gods in a pantheon don't actually get along/collectively lead a race. So I at one point made me start to imagine how the different drow deities might fulfill (or have fulfilled) different roles in society. Perhaps a forgotten relationship where Eilistraee and Lloth used to be allies, or, if in fact, the antagonism between the two is limited to only a city state. Other facets would include Kiaransalee as the stillborn daughter of Lloth and Corellon. The cults of Vhaerun and Selvetarm compete with each other over the proper ideal of drow men.
2) I had the strange realization that drow warriors should definitely be egalitarian, if all the drow warriors are men it would just make the toppling evil matriarchy to restore things to their natural patriarchal order thing.
3) I also have imagined that Drow would have arranged marriages tied into land exchanges, the male drow marrying into a noble house alongside some holdings. Also, that Drow women might be somewhat encouraged to be promiscuous but only with drow men (and women). Drow men on the other hand would be to some extent expected to be faithful to their wives/dedicated mistresses*. And that poaching men would be a power play among drow women.

*Though they could sleep with other races at their leisure, that wouldn't count.

Bohandas
2017-10-20, 08:08 PM
And, that's a problem? The idea that one Gender totally controlling and dominating the other one is bad regardless of which gender is dominating and which gender is being subjugated? This is a bad notion to have now? That's always been what I've gotten out of Drow. A rebuttal to the idea that I frankly hear alarmingly often these days whenever I go onto a college campus. (That if Women were just put in charge of everything and made the elite privileged ruling cast of society, everything would magically just get better. And it's not just Artsy-Fartsy or I'm-here-for-the-party's type students this has come to me from either. ) A statement that no, no, you have made nothing better, it's just as bad, it's just that now the labels have been swapped is all, and maybe some of the fluffy but inconsequential window dressing has been changed.

As a tangent to this, such superficial upheavals have the makings of a great Baatezu soul harvesting scheme. Imagine a land where there's a tyrannical totalitarian government, and successful revolutions keep happening, but none of the revolutions ever change anything of importance. You keep renewing popular loyalty to the lawful evil government (and thus the lawful-evil karma of the people) by changing it out every so often and have the bonus of a regular harvest corresponding to the previous government's fall.

Akisa
2017-10-20, 08:35 PM
Is there an Eilistraee like deity in Golarion Pathfinder campaign setting?

gkathellar
2017-10-21, 08:49 AM
Is there an Eilistraee like deity in Golarion Pathfinder campaign setting?

Golarion's drow follow a basically different narrative - AFAIK, they didn't take cover from an encroaching cataclysm when the rest of the elves did, and got tainted by Rovagug, that setting's extant God of Internet Trolls and/or Destruction. I'm not even sure they have the whole spider-obsessed matriarchy thing going on.

It is on the one hand more palatable in some respects, but on the other hand lacks the soap opera-style tension that I love about their D&D backstory.

Millstone85
2017-10-21, 10:40 AM
For Eilistraee and the rest of the Drow pantheon, always bugged me when different gods in a pantheon don't actually get along/collectively lead a race. So I at one point made me start to imagine how the different drow deities might fulfill (or have fulfilled) different roles in society.It is interesting to think about a version of the Realms where the existence or nature of the gods wouldn't be so obvious.

Lolth would represent the matriarchy and noble houses that are the backbone of drow society, with the spider web as a metaphor for the way one's home must double as a deadly trap for others.

Vhaeraun would represent all the intrigue going on between and within houses, which the drow see as a necessary challenge, including the risk of rebellion.

Selvetarm would represent the ideal that young drow males are meant to emulate, a great warrior ever obedient to his grandmother, even against his father.

Eilistraee would represent the arts, which the drow do enjoy, but also the nostalgia of the ways of the surface.

Kiaransalee would represent arcane magic, and be seen as a lich mostly by those who fear or seek its use as a mean of rebellion.

Ghaunadaur would represent the wilds of the Underdark, also associated with the outcasts who must survive there by themselves.

Bohandas
2017-10-21, 11:45 AM
Oh yeah, even Gruumsh is a better class of deity - say what you will, but he actually properly cares about the orcs, rather than being the multiverses worst tsundere. I just find the idea of societal uplift via fascism or communism more amusing.

Communism itself isn't bad, the problem is that it has a shorter halflife than darmstadium and totalitarianism is in its decay chain

Bohandas
2017-10-21, 03:48 PM
The BDSM thing, en, I think at the time it was just though of as an exotic idea so they threw it in. That's what THAT always felt like to me. People who know NOTHING about BDSM throwing in a touch of the imagery and some dialog that's trying to sound like it knows something about it but doesn't and is easily spotted as such for those with actual familiarity with it.

This is a bit of a fallacy and an anachronism. The writings of De Sade and Masoch, for whom S&M is named and which at times veer into the utterly fantastical, are at least as valid a rubric to judge against as modern BDSM culture, especially in a work of fantasy.

Guizonde
2017-10-21, 04:50 PM
This is a bit of a fallacy and an anachronism. The writings of De Sade and Masoch, for whom S&M is named and which at times veer into the utterly fantastical, are at least as valid a rubric to judge against as modern BDSM culture, especially in a work of fantasy.

i'm not too sure about that. having read some sade (unfortunately), it's got very little to do with modern (ie, post-70's) bdsm. now, granted, every practitionner should read sade to learn of the origins of the lifestyle and imagery, but it's so goddawfully badly written... it's halfway between subversive writing for shock value, and some teenage girl's blog detailing misunderstood sexual acts. it makes some troll fics look readable and credible by comparison. and i've read "my immortal" just to compare with sade's "justine". it's... six of one, half a dozen of the other on which one's less palatable reading material.

modern bdsm really became big in the fetish communities earlier than the 70's, but once it hit the adult shop market, then it became this fantasmagorical novel idea. you can see it in the gorean subculture, you can see it in the vampire subculture, you can see it in dnd. as we all know, porn is not the way to have a healthy understanding of sexual relations, and bdsm is pretty friggin' abstract a concept to a normal human being. before anything else, it's the nerd's way of getting it on. it's at least as mental as it is physical, and that's before getting out the whips and handcuffs. what did some lonely nerds see in the adult video shops in the 70's? a latex-clad dominatrix whipping a chained dude using a cat o' nine tails. now, let's look at the drow. "evil" vibe? check. women in power? check. whips and sexual innuendo? check. a working understanding of bdsm dynamics? nope.

i enjoy a few aspects of bdsm, and practice some too. a lot of my vanilla friends look at the drow or any other bdsm reference in dnd and give me winking glances. i have to remind them that that's to real bdsm as the barbarian character is to a real viking fighting. it's the "hollywood treatment". 50 shades of derp just made it worse and even more prevalent.

going back to the 70's time period, guess which other subculture used the imagery and iconography of bdsm for shock value? heavy metal. judas priest are the originators of the chains and leather clad bad boy stereotype. i'm not calling coincidence on that one. heavy metal and rpg's are intimately linked: even before the golden age of power metal, you had ronnie james dio singing about dragons and rainbows. you've got two bands of the death metal variety that sing mostly about warhammer (vader and bolt thrower). rhapsody, demons and wizards, blind guardian... most have dragons on their album artwork.

if drow have got a hollywood-bdsm thing going, it's for the exotic shock value. it's also why i'm convinced most "edgy" races have a bit of a metal thing going. it's author shorthand for "cool for teenagers".

why yes, i'm a nerd and a metalhead. what gave it away?

Max_Killjoy
2017-10-21, 05:03 PM
i'm not too sure about that. having read some sade (unfortunately), it's got very little to do with modern (ie, post-70's) bdsm. now, granted, every practitionner should read sade to learn of the origins of the lifestyle and imagery, but it's so goddawfully badly written... it's halfway between subversive writing for shock value, and some teenage girl's blog detailing misunderstood sexual acts. it makes some troll fics look readable and credible by comparison. and i've read "my immortal" just to compare with sade's "justine". it's... six of one, half a dozen of the other on which one's less palatable reading material.

modern bdsm really became big in the fetish communities earlier than the 70's, but once it hit the adult shop market, then it became this fantasmagorical novel idea. you can see it in the gorean subculture, you can see it in the vampire subculture, you can see it in dnd. as we all know, porn is not the way to have a healthy understanding of sexual relations, and bdsm is pretty friggin' abstract a concept to a normal human being. before anything else, it's the nerd's way of getting it on. it's at least as mental as it is physical, and that's before getting out the whips and handcuffs. what did some lonely nerds see in the adult video shops in the 70's? a latex-clad dominatrix whipping a chained dude using a cat o' nine tails. now, let's look at the drow. "evil" vibe? check. women in power? check. whips and sexual innuendo? check. a working understanding of bdsm dynamics? nope.

i enjoy a few aspects of bdsm, and practice some too. a lot of my vanilla friends look at the drow or any other bdsm reference in dnd and give me winking glances. i have to remind them that that's to real bdsm as the barbarian character is to a real viking fighting. it's the "hollywood treatment". 50 shades of derp just made it worse and even more prevalent.

going back to the 70's time period, guess which other subculture used the imagery and iconography of bdsm for shock value? heavy metal. judas priest are the originators of the chains and leather clad bad boy stereotype. i'm not calling coincidence on that one. heavy metal and rpg's are intimately linked: even before the golden age of power metal, you had ronnie james dio singing about dragons and rainbows. you've got two bands of the death metal variety that sing mostly about warhammer (vader and bolt thrower). rhapsody, demons and wizards, blind guardian... most have dragons on their album artwork.

if drow have got a hollywood-bdsm thing going, it's for the exotic shock value. it's also why i'm convinced most "edgy" races have a bit of a metal thing going. it's author shorthand for "cool for teenagers".

why yes, i'm a nerd and a metalhead. what gave it away?

Thank you for a thought-provoking consideration of the possible origins of Drow imagery. Might the same analysis be applied to Warhammer's metalhead holligan orcs, and Chaos/Dark Eldar pain-monger imagery?

Combined with the Norse mythology (Svartálfar and Dǫkkálfar) and the black widow "metaphor", this also gives us a far more likely origin for the Drow (concept, imagery, etc) than some of the tedious political garbage that gets dumped on their doorstep.

Millstone85
2017-10-21, 05:16 PM
if drow have got a hollywood-bdsm thing going, it's for the exotic shock value. it's also why i'm convinced most "edgy" races have a bit of a metal thing going. it's author shorthand for "cool for teenagers".https://i.imgur.com/qxanDbM.png

Honest Tiefling
2017-10-21, 05:21 PM
Combined with the Norse mythology (Svartálfar and Dǫkkálfar) and the black widow "metaphor", this also gives us a far more likely origin for the Drow (concept, imagery, etc) than some of the tedious political garbage that gets dumped on their doorstep.

I...Don't know if I believe that the drow are really influenced by the Svartalfar. I do think the idea of dark elves might have arisen from looking at the name and basic attributes, but I don't think it goes much deeper then that.

1) The **** is an elf? Since Norse mythology wasn't the best preserved, there's a bit of debate of what an elf is. The Vanir god Freyr might be their king (since he got their homelands as a teething gift), which might imply a connection to the Vanir. They could also just be dwarves, since elves aren't fighters and are sometimes said to have a lot of treasure...Like Dwarves and might just be the same species. Some sources seem to reference a type of mist-spirit-thing, but it's really shaky as to what an elf really is.

2) The white hair business is never mentioned, nor is black skin. The Svart part can also mean 'swarthy', which could be black skinned, but could just mean dark skin. (which, compared to most Scandinavians, is going to be pretty much everyone). It could just be a reference to them living in dark places as well because why not at this point?

3) I don't think there's a single mention of pointed ears in the norse mythology. They probably got conflated with the fey of the Anglo-Saxon at some point, or the Scottish folklore, since many Scandinavians did settle or trade with that region.

I really think that the Metalhead/BDSM subculture is a much more likely origin story. Album covers are probably going to depict leather clad women with swords, which might explain the matriarchy bit. I don't know how BDSM worked in the 70's, but in many areas professional dommes are mostly women, not men in current times. A causal peek into the sub culture might have lead to some interesting ideas...

Bohandas
2017-10-21, 05:49 PM
as we all know, porn is not the way to have a healthy understanding of sexual relations

Drow are not meant to be healthy or wholseome

Guizonde
2017-10-21, 06:27 PM
I really think that the Metalhead/BDSM subculture is a much more likely origin story. Album covers are probably going to depict leather clad women with swords, which might explain the matriarchy bit. I don't know how BDSM worked in the 70's, but in many areas professional dommes are mostly women, not men in current times. A causal peek into the sub culture might have lead to some interesting ideas...

most of what's going on today is just a carry over of pushing the envelope of "socially acceptable" going back to time immemorial. as a rule, you'll find more professional female dommes, since in occidental culture, men are the ones in power, willing to take control in the bedroom, and most importantly: pay for it. there isn't much of a market for hetero male doms. jury's out on gay ones, because frankly, i've never done the research. i know clubs exist for that clientele, but not much more beyond it.

if i may recommend, check out the bbc's seven ages of rock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Ages_of_Rock), the episode titled "never say die" talks about the origins of the heavy metal genre. basically, it's rob halford's fault for being secretive, and his bandmates going down to the fetish shop he frequented that gave heavy metal its fashion. it's also why i hypothesized that the creators of the drow went into an adult store, saw something without understanding it, put on a priest record (or dio, or maiden, or...) and boom! drow happened.

@millstone85: i'm pretty sure there's gonna be a black metal band using that image as an artwork now.

@bohandas: i was referring to a human teenager looking at things he was not meant to know, not the drow (who you're right, are neither healthy nor wholesome, but that's a feature, not a bug).

@max_killjoy: ok, so i'm playing captain obvious. was it really needed to be so sarcastic? it's better to state the obvious when there are teens on this board that may have never heard of what i stated and will go look for more info. hell, the current warhammer generation doesn't know that both battle and 40k are parodies of the real world and take it at face value (see the "god emperor trump" meme for reference). those same kids also conveniently forget that the tau are more influenced by 1984 than by being the weeaboo space commies they are shorthanded into. the fact that they appear to be the good guys shows how exaggeratedly dystopian the 40k verse is.
and because i have to keep being obvious, to answer your question: obviously. but battle orcs are more london (cockney) football hooligans and space orks are more metalheads (why games workshop scrapped the goff rockaz is beyond me, those guys looked awesome. plus, mosh pits and electric guitars). as for chaos and dark elves/ eldar? pointy = evil? pain = bad = evil? goes against societal norm = evil? i don't want to play armchair psychologist.

Max_Killjoy
2017-10-21, 07:50 PM
@max_killjoy: ok, so i'm playing captain obvious. was it really needed to be so sarcastic? it's better to state the obvious when there are teens on this board that may have never heard of what i stated and will go look for more info. hell, the current warhammer generation doesn't know that both battle and 40k are parodies of the real world and take it at face value (see the "god emperor trump" meme for reference). those same kids also conveniently forget that the tau are more influenced by 1984 than by being the weeaboo space commies they are shorthanded into. the fact that they appear to be the good guys shows how exaggeratedly dystopian the 40k verse is.

and because i have to keep being obvious, to answer your question: obviously. but battle orcs are more london (cockney) football hooligans and space orks are more metalheads (why games workshop scrapped the goff rockaz is beyond me, those guys looked awesome. plus, mosh pits and electric guitars). as for chaos and dark elves/ eldar? pointy = evil? pain = bad = evil? goes against societal norm = evil? i don't want to play armchair psychologist.


Sorry, if there was any sarcasm in my post, 0% of it was directed at you. I meant exactly what I said.

Guizonde
2017-10-21, 08:00 PM
Sorry, if there was any sarcasm in my post, 0% of it was directed at you. I meant exactly what I said.

0.o really? my apologies, then. it's rare on forums to get that kind of message said without sarcasm. i'm kind of flattered by your post and embarrassed by my response now.

2D8HP
2017-10-21, 08:06 PM
A Drow? So dwells in the Orkney and Shetland islands off the mainland of Scotland, primarily lives underground, but ventures out at night to kidnap musicians, and "Drow" is sometimes spelled "Trow"

If you share traits associated with other Elf-kin you probably fear iron and church bells,.so leather, wood, and bronze armor and weapons only. You may also steal cattle and unbabtized human babies, and to retain your freedom, you.have to send a tithe in the blood of a fellow Elf or a human lover to Hell every seven years.

And you enjoy hunting mortals, but you fall in love with mortal poets.

Or.... you live in the underground city of Erelhei-Cinlu, which was made from the first letters of the names of E."Gary" Gygax's first five children (Ernie, Elise, Heidi, Cindy, and Luke), and you are a weak fighter but a strong magic-user.

From age 39 of the 1977 Monster Manual:
"Drow: The "Black Elves," or drow, are only legend. They purportedly dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users.
Probably to emphasise that Elves aren't human the Gray Elves who "live in isolated meadowlands" are paler than Wood Elves who "make their home in shady forests", and the Drow live in a "strange subterranean realm" are dark skinned, which is the opposite of what you'd expect from humans,but if the only problem is someone objecting to the Drow being "dark skinned" that seems like an easy thing to re-flavor.

Something that has got me wondering, the first I ever heard of the Drow was in the '77 Monster Manual where they're described as "only legend" under the Elf entry, and then they were mysterious behind the scenes villains in the "Against the Giants" modules, until you follow their trail in the "D" modules into the Drow city of Erelhei-Cinlu, but it is clear that the existence of Drow are initially unknown to PC's.
Fast forward to the 5e PHB and the Drow are a recognized PC race, so I'm wondering about "fluff" reasons to explain the migration (maybe one was given during the 2e to 4e years that I missed when I wasn't getting to play D&D).
Is there a civil war, or invasion of Llurth Dreier and/or Menzoberranzan and the Drow are refugees?
A few pioneer Drow came to the surface world and, found opportunities and came home with riches, and other Drow followed?
A "gap year" (decade?) in the human lands becomes fashionable after "Do'Urden's Guide to Faerun on five copper pieces a day is published"?
How many, and for how long?
What do you suggest?

Anyway, some more history:
"Descent to the Depths of the Earth" by Gary Gygax was published by TSR back in 1978 (I didn't get a copy until the mid '80's though), and this same description is from it:

"Ages past, when the elvenfolk were but new to the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord, and those of better disposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel. However, constant warfare between the two divisions of elvenkind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorious, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands under the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underworld. Here, in the lightless caverns and endless warrens of twisting passages and caves hung with icicles of stone, the Dark Elvenfolk, the Drow, found both refuge and comfort. Over the centuries they grew strong once again and schooled themselves in arcane arts. And if they were strong enough to face and defeat their former brethren in battle, the Drow no longer desired to walk upon the green lands under the sun and stars. They no longer desired a life in the upper world, being content with the gloomy fairyland beneath the earth that they had made their own. Yet they neither forgive nor forget, and above all else they bear enmity for all of their distant kin - elves and faeries - who drove them down and now dwell in the meadows and dells of the bright world. Though they are seldom if ever seen by any human or demi-human, the Drow still persist, and occasionally they enter lower dungeon levels and consort with other creatures in order to work out their schemes and inflict revenge upon those who inhabit the world above.

Description: Drow are black skinned and pale haired. They are slight of build and have delicate fingers and toes. Their features are somewhat sharper and ears are pointed and large, but this does not make them unhandsome. Their eyes are very large, being all iris and pupil. Male drow are of thin build, about 5' tall, have dead black skin and dead white hair, and the irises of their eyes are orange to orange-yellow. Females are slender and shapely, about 5 1/2' tall, and have glossy black skin and shining silvery hair. The eyes of female Drow are amber, though a few are said to possess irises of lambent violet.

The usual Drow fighting/travelling garb includes a pair of black boots and a hooded black cloak which comes to the ankles of the wearer. The boots are simply black boots of elvenkind manufactured by a different sort of material. The cloaks are woven of spider silk and some unknown fiber which combined with the silk makes them very strong, slippery, supple, and nearly impossible to detect in dungeon-like surroundings. Thus, in boots and cloaks the Drow are 75% undetectable unless they are moving/attacking within 20', the former in direct view of an observer. Drow cloaks are usually not harmed by blows from weapons, as they slide aside and do not tear easily, nor are they easily burned (+6 on saving throws versus fire attacks). However, these garments are very difficult to tailor, and to be effective, the cloaks must neither be above the ankles nor dragging on the ground. Any alteration of a Drow cloak requires a saving throw of 76% or better. Less than this score indicates the material frays and will ravel away when worn, so the cloak is useless.

Drow wear a fine mesh armor of exquisite workmanship. It is an alloy of steel containing adamantite, and even the lowliest fighters have in effect +1 chainmail, with the higher level Drow having +2, +3, +4, or even +5 chainmail. Small bucklers are also used, shields of unusual shape, those of greater experience level and importance in the society having bucklers fashioned of adamantite so as to be +1, +2, or +3 value.

The extraordinary nature of the Dark Elves' armor and weaponry, their magic-like but non-magical plusses, is due only in part to the adamantite alloy from which they are fashioned. The value of this alloy is that when it is exposed to the strange radiation in the Drow homeland (see MODULE D3, VAULT OF THE DROW) for a period of a month, its magical bonuses come to the fore. If the item is kept from this radiation for more than a month, it loses the bonus and becomes merely a finely made item of normal sort."

From Vault of the Drow (also from 1978)

“The Vault is a strange anomaly, a hemispherical cyst in the crust of the earth, a huge domed fault over 6 miles long and nearly as broad. The dome overhead is a hundred feet high at the walls, arching to several thousand feet height in the center. The radiation from certain unique minerals gives the visual effect of a starry heaven… These ‘star’ nodes glow in radiant hues of mauve, lake, violet, puce, lilac, and deep blue. The large ‘moon’ of tumkeoite casts beams of shimmering amethyst which touch the crystalline formations with colors unknown to any other visual experience. The lichens seem to glow in rose madder and pale damson, the fungi growths in golden and red ochres. The rock walls of the Vault appear hazy and insubstantial in the wine-colored light, more like mist than solid walls. The place is indeed a dark fairyland.”


On "Heavy Metal" and Dungeons & Dragons

As youths both me and my little brother played D&D, and we gradually eased out of RPG's and into other "pop culture" music, he into "Metal" (Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Metallica, etc.) and me into "Punk Rock" (Avengers, Dead Kennedy's, Stiff Little Fingers, etc.), but there was a "Metal" band that I got albums of:

Motörhead

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/39/Mot%C3%B6rhead_-_Mot%C3%B6rhead_%281977%29.jpg/220px-Mot%C3%B6rhead_-_Mot%C3%B6rhead_%281977%29.jpgAs a youth I enjoyed announcing "the next song is Motorhead, by Motörhead from the album Motörhead! when I DJ'd at radio station KALX and Motörhead is linked to the D&D Alignment system] through:

Hawkwind!

In a Dungeons & Dragons, Law/Chaos started out as the only axis of D&D alignment back in 1974.The literary antecedents of Law and Chaos were Poul Anderson (Three Hearts and Three Lions) and Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melinbourne, and at the beginning of 1975, Hawkwind recorded the album Warrior on the Edge of Time in collaboration with Michael Moorcock, loosely based on his Eternal Champion figure. However, during a North America tour in May, Lemmy was caught in possession of something crossing the border from the USA into Canada. And Lemmy was jailed, forcing the band to cancel some shows. Fed up with his erratic behaviour, the band fired the bass player Lemmy replacing him with their long-standing friend and former Pink Fairies guitarist Paul Rudolph. Lemmy then teamed up with another Pink Fairies guitarist, Larry Wallis, to form Motörhead, named after the last song he had written for Hawkwind.

*woo*

See the links?

*Ahem*


Motörhead:

Sunrise, wrong side of another day,
Sky high and six thousand miles away,
Don't know how long I've been awake,
Wound up in an amazing state,
Can't get enough,
And you know it's righteous stuff,
Goes up like prices at Christmas,
Motorhead, you can call me Motorhead, alright

Brain dead, total amnesia,
Get some mental anesthesia,
Don't move, I'll shut the door and kill the lights,
And if I can't be wrong I could be right,
All good clean fun,
Have another stick of gum,
Man, you look better already,
Motorhead, remember me now Motorhead, alright

Fourth day, five day marathon,
We're moving like a parallelogram,
Don't move, I'll shut the door and kill the lights,
I guess I'll see you all on the ice,
I should be tired,
And all I am is wired,
Ain't felt this good for an hour,
Motorhead, remember me now, Motorhead alright

Songwriter: Ian Kilmister ("Lemmy")

Just so METAL!!!

:amused:

Max_Killjoy
2017-10-21, 08:07 PM
0.o really? my apologies, then. it's rare on forums to get that kind of message said without sarcasm. i'm kind of flattered by your post and embarrassed by my response now.

Don't worry about it, I can see how you'd take it sarcastically given, you know, the internet.

War_lord
2017-10-21, 09:30 PM
Don't quote me on this, but I seem to recall reading a D&D blog that had a picture of a sci-fi novel written by someone who knew Gygax that had an alien woman on the cover withe (literally) black skin and white hair of the Drow, just predating their appearance in D&D. Can't remember the title of it though so I can't check.

2D8HP
2017-10-21, 09:38 PM
Don't quote me on this, but I seem to recall reading a D&D blog that had a picture of a sci-fi novel written by someone who knew Gygax that had an alien woman on the cover withe (literally) black skin and white hair of the Drow, just predating their appearance in D&D. Can't remember the title of it though so I can't check.

It was "Forerunner" by Andre Norton, who also wrote "Quag Keep" which was the first D&D novel (she had played at Gygax's table)

Anyway here's a link on

Forerunner (https://www.tor.com/2012/02/15/andre-nortons-forerunner-rediscovering-the-past/)