Magic Jar Buffing

[Anthrowhale]

Suppose the party wizard casts Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm) in the morning, then possesses a party member and casts Mirror Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm), then returns to the wizard's original body. What happens? Plausibly, Mirror Image operates on the party member rather than the wizard---in other words, the spell effect is anchored to the body not the soul. (If a DM rules otherwise they make Magic Jar significantly more dangerous offensively since spell effects traveling with the soul implies the wizard arrives in a new body with all precast buffs intact.)

So what happens if the wizard does this twice each time while possessing different party members using the spell Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) each time? The relevant bit is:
You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled. Presumably because of the specific wording of the spell, the first one is dispelled.

So what happens if the wizard uses Magic Jar, casts Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm), then ends Magic Jar? Plausibly the host is in a Shapechanged form. But what happens here:
You can change form once each round as a free action. Can the host change form voluntarily? Or does the wizard maintain control over the spell even though the wizard is now no longer in the affected body?

[Sheogoroth]

I would probably rule that it works, but with some kind of permanent horrifying magical mutation or deformity to the hosts body and possible alignment or sanity loss on the part of the caster for such an aberration of the rights of sentience and magic.

That's generally my go-to for any confusing and silly nonsense that technically seems to work as worded but is absolutely insane.

[Nifft]

Another interpretation is that anything with a "Target: you" is nullified when the definition of "you" changes sufficiently.

For example, "you" are a body + a soul.

When you swap bodies -- not merely transforming your body, but taking a whole new one from somebody else -- perhaps "you" have changed sufficiently.

[Segev]

Personally, I'd let it work, because it's a pretty big investment to get spells on others. It also takes a fair bit of trust to let the mage do it. And it really isn't that broken in the grand scheme of things.

[Zanos]

Ask your DM. As far as I know the rules never clarify what buffs are anchored to, and both rulings come with their own problems.


Personally, I'd let it work, because it's a pretty big investment to get spells on others. It also takes a fair bit of trust to let the mage do it. And it really isn't that broken in the grand scheme of things.
You only have to cast the magic jar once since you can shift back and forth doing it. The trust aspect is pretty limiting, I agree, but the non-possessed party members could just hold his original body. I think more limiting is that this requires significant setup, so only works on spells with decent durations.

[Deophaun]

Another interpretation is that anything with a "Target: you" is nullified when the definition of "you" changes sufficiently.

For example, "you" are a body + a soul.

When you swap bodies -- not merely transforming your body, but taking a whole new one from somebody else -- perhaps "you" have changed sufficiently.
You don't want to go there. Having spells recheck to see if their target is still valid would destroy things like revenance. Target? Dead ally touched. What? Ally is no longer dead and is no longer being touched? Invalid! Back to being a corpse.

[Nifft]

You don't want to go there. Having spells recheck to see if their target is still valid would destroy things like revenance. Target? Dead ally touched. What? Ally is no longer dead and is no longer being touched? Invalid! Back to being a corpse.

That's not a new can of worms -- PrCs including the core Dragon Disciple already demand a solution to that "dilemma".

The solution is simple:


If any specific effect would render you an inapplicable target for itself, it applies anyway.

Therefore:

When magic jar renders "you" inapplicable for mirror image, that's not the effect negating itself. So that negation is fine.

When revenance renders "you" inapplicable for revenance, that is the effect vs. itself. So it applies anyway.

This is a generally useful solution for 3.x games.

[Deophaun]

That's not a new can of worms -- PrCs including the core Dragon Disciple already demand a solution to that "dilemma".
Dragon Disciple works fine as printed. As a general rule, which the DMG is the primary source for when it comes to PrCs, you can lose prerequisites without losing access to the PrC's abilities. That other books decided to add extra rules for the PrCs they present has no bearing on those outside of those works.

What you are doing is creating a dilemma and then creating something new to solve the problem you created.

[Anthrowhale]

When you swap bodies -- not merely transforming your body, but taking a whole new one from somebody else -- perhaps "you" have changed sufficiently.
Should I interpret that as a "changed sufficiently so there is no 'you' and the spell fails"?



The trust aspect is pretty limiting, I agree, but the non-possessed party members could just hold his original body. I think more limiting is that this requires significant setup, so only works on spells with decent durations.
Magic Jar has pretty terrible targeting though so it helps quite a bit to have all party members except the desired be well-separated.

Getting personal spells on noncasters isn't a new effect even in core, because there is a ring of spell storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#spellStoring) which is a good party investment. With a ring of spell storing in the party, any party member can invest in the appropriate pearl of power for any desired personal buff.

The Magic Jar approach to the same effect is somewhat more awkward in targeting and delayed until 5th level spells are available while requiring a lower initial investment.

[Nifft]

What you are doing is creating a dilemma and then creating something new to solve the problem you created. Point of order: I did not create this dilemma.


Should I interpret that as a "changed sufficiently so there is no 'you' and the spell fails"? You could.

Or you could pick one or the other (soul or body) as the canonical "you".

Identity is a tricky issue.

[RoboEmperor]

Buffs are anchored to you, with a few exceptions. Rule on a case by case basis.

Enlarge Person? Body.
Mirror Image? Body.
Haste? Body.
Fly? Body.
Eagle's Splendor? You.
Fox's Cunning? You.
Bull's Strength? Body.

Huh... I contradicted myself. ok. Buffs are anchored to your body with a few exceptions.

[rel]

seems like it should work, wizard can use magic jar to throw personal buffs onto party members.

[Anthrowhale]

Buffs are anchored to you, with a few exceptions. Rule on a case by case basis.

Enlarge Person? Body.
Mirror Image? Body.[quo
Haste? Body.
Fly? Body.
Eagle's Splendor? You.
Fox's Cunning? You.
Bull's Strength? Body.

Huh... I contradicted myself. ok. Buffs are anchored to your body with a few exceptions.

This seems like a good point. Magic Jar gives guidance:
You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, ... base attack bonus, ..., and mental abilities So a spell effect altering mental abilities (Fox's Cunning,...) or base attack bonus (Divine Poewer, Tenser's Transformation) effectively travel with the soul. On the other hand
The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. ... implying that spells altering physical attributes (Cat's grace) or hit points(False Life), or creating natural or automatic abilities (mirror image, see invisibility, etc...) stay with the host and benefit the host. This is a bit odd in the case of Divine Power since it both alters strength and base attack bonus implying that casting in a host then ending Magic Jar results in Divine Power effects being split between wizard and host. I guess that's ok. On the other hand, this:

You can’t choose to activate the body’s extraordinary or supernatural abilities. suggests the body cannot direct controlled spells (defined as per Snatch Spell from Incantatrix 6 Seize Concentration or Incantatrix 8 Snatch Spell). Hence Magic Jar[Shapechange] would leave a host 'stuck' in the last assumed form chosen before Magic Jar was ended.

[SangoProduction]

Most of the time, the spell seems to make sense to be anchored to the body, at least, without the body neccesarily having control over the "buff." Generally, anything that changes or augments the body falls into this category. I would find shapechange to be in this group.

Sometimes it makes sense for it to be anchored to the mind. Easily enough, this includes mental buffs. However, I also tend to include anything that doesn't obviously affect the body, which can lead to some buffs being defunct, such as Mirror Image. It's anchored to your mind. "You" as in your mind, certainly doesn't look like the body you are inhabiting, making it worthless.

[Anthrowhale]

Most of the time, the spell seems to make sense to be anchored to the body, at least, without the body neccesarily having control over the "buff." Generally, anything that changes or augments the body falls into this category. I would find shapechange to be in this group.

Sometimes it makes sense for it to be anchored to the mind. Easily enough, this includes mental buffs. However, I also tend to include anything that doesn't obviously affect the body, which can lead to some buffs being defunct, such as Mirror Image. It's anchored to your mind. "You" as in your mind, certainly doesn't look like the body you are inhabiting, making it worthless.

I'm not following why Mirror Image should be anchored to the mind. Mirror Image works regardless of whether a tall person thinks of themselves as short (for example). In general, it seems to create duplicates of the actual body rather than a self-image of the body.

[SangoProduction]

I'm not following why Mirror Image should be anchored to the mind. Mirror Image works regardless of whether a tall person thinks of themselves as short (for example). In general, it seems to create duplicates of the actual body rather than a self-image of the body.
Maybe if you prepare the mirror images in the image of the body you intend to cast it on. Maybe spontaneous casters have an advantage here.

[Nifft]

Maybe if you prepare the mirror images in the image of the body you intend to cast it on. Maybe spontaneous casters have an advantage here.

A master of misdirection therefore takes 20 on her Disguise check before preparing spells.

That would be a very different interesting game.

[Anthrowhale]

Maybe if you prepare the mirror images in the image of the body you intend to cast it on. Maybe spontaneous casters have an advantage here.

Using this logic, a wizard prepares Mirror Image, casts Polymorph to turn into an ogre, and then Mirror Image does not work?

[SangoProduction]

Using this logic, a wizard prepares Mirror Image, casts Polymorph to turn into an ogre, and then Mirror Image does not work?

OK. You've convinced me.

[Anthrowhale]

A tough one: What if a sorcerer uses Magic Jar on a Lemure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#lemure), casts Polymorph Any Object to turn into a Cornugon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon), and then ends Magic Jar.

The duration of PAO should be permanent (Same Kingdom, same class, related).
The intelligence of the host is unaffected by PAO and should remain zero even after PAO ends.

More interesting: The intelligence of the sorcerer is set to 14 and remains there on a permanent basis even after ending Magic Jar.

[Segev]

A tough one: What if a sorcerer uses Magic Jar on a Lemure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#lemure), casts Polymorph Any Object to turn into a Cornugon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon), and then ends Magic Jar.

The duration of PAO should be permanent (Same Kingdom, same class, related).
The intelligence of the host is unaffected by PAO and should remain zero even after PAO ends.

More interesting: The intelligence of the sorcerer is set to 14 and remains there on a permanent basis even after ending Magic Jar.

The spell is either cast on the Lemure's body or the Sorcerer's "self." The int change would only follow if the PAO followed the sorcerer. In fact, the int change may not affect the sorcerer possessing the body, either, but the underlying and suppressed Lemure.

[Feantar]

While I do get the debate, think on the consequences. This doesn't make wizards more powerful, they already dominated everything if they wanted to. This makes wizards more useful to the party. Essentially increasing their buffing capabilities which, in general, is something that a party of multiple tiers likes. Thus I think it would be a positive. Maybe give it a clause that the moment the non-wizard's soul goes back in it's body it gets to negate all the willing only spells or the spells that had a save if they so wish, to block this from being used offensively? Although, it should be noted that by the point you've possessed an opponent, they are pretty much done for.

[Anthrowhale]

The spell is either cast on the Lemure's body or the Sorcerer's "self." The int change would only follow if the PAO followed the sorcerer. In fact, the int change may not affect the sorcerer possessing the body, either, but the underlying and suppressed Lemure.

Having PAO affect a soul which is not even in line of effect seems suspect.

Forcing spells which affect body and soul (i.e Divine Power, Tenser's Transformation, PAO) to anchor on only the body sounds sanity inducing. This means that a wizard who possesses something under a precast PAO[Cornugon] has their Intelligence set to 14 for the duration of the possession.

[Jack_Simth]

Dragon Disciple works fine as printed. As a general rule, which the DMG is the primary source for when it comes to PrCs, you can lose prerequisites without losing access to the PrC's abilities. That other books decided to add extra rules for the PrCs they present has no bearing on those outside of those works.Partially accurate.

In 3.0, the bit about losing PrC features when you lose a PrC requirement is directly in the 3.0 DMG as part of the PrC section header.
In 3.5, that was removed from the DMG. The two Complete books that include the bit about losing PrC abilities when you lose the PrC perquisites are some of the earlier 3.5 books, and also include other 3.0 holdovers (references to removed or renamed skills, invalid builds because a requirement for a feat changed, et cetera). I'm of the opinion that it's a copy/paste editing error in those two Complete books.

That said:
I'm ALSO of the opinion that if you voluntarily relinquish a requirement for a PrC, then you probably should lose a bunch of the class features. On the other hand, if it is stripped from you, then you should only lose stuff that's closely tied to that requirement (e.g., an Arcane Trickster that gets Cursed to be unable to cast Mage Hand may lose the ability to use Ranged legerdemain) and be unable to advance in that PrC until the issue is resolved. This is a personal take on game balance, not a RAW reading of the rules.

[RoboEmperor]

I also like to add Malconvoker to the list of PrCs that prove losing prerequisites do not result in loss of class feature.

Malconvoker's requirement is: Summon Monster III.

If you're a sorcerer with Summon Monster IX, you can't qualify for Malconvoker, so if you're a malconvoker sorcerer that swapped out Summon Monster III for some other spell, you lose all malconvoker class features? No, the answer is no. Once you get summon monster III and become a malconvoker, you don't have to keep summon monster III as your spell known until the end of time, which suggests the first-step theory instead of the lose-all-class-feature theory.

[Segev]

Partially accurate.

In 3.0, the bit about losing PrC features when you lose a PrC requirement is directly in the 3.0 DMG as part of the PrC section header.
In 3.5, that was removed from the DMG. The two Complete books that include the bit about losing PrC abilities when you lose the PrC perquisites are some of the earlier 3.5 books, and also include other 3.0 holdovers (references to removed or renamed skills, invalid builds because a requirement for a feat changed, et cetera). I'm of the opinion that it's a copy/paste editing error in those two Complete books.

That said:
I'm ALSO of the opinion that if you voluntarily relinquish a requirement for a PrC, then you probably should lose a bunch of the class features. On the other hand, if it is stripped from you, then you should only lose stuff that's closely tied to that requirement (e.g., an Arcane Trickster that gets Cursed to be unable to cast Mage Hand may lose the ability to use Ranged legerdemain) and be unable to advance in that PrC until the issue is resolved. This is a personal take on game balance, not a RAW reading of the rules.

I admit that I primarily like the "lose abilities if you lose prereqs" rule because it allows for one of my favorite concepts for a build: Schroedinger's War Hulk.