Preferred Character Round Robin: VAARSUVIUS vs REDCLOAK

[alwaysbebatman]

Climactic battle of Mystic Might



https://i.imgur.com/U9i0T8v.jpg https://i.imgur.com/YPP6XpM.png

[Synesthesy]

Redcloak.

And no, I don't want to read a 12 pages long debate how about Reddie is the lesser evil here.

[martianmister]

I'll pass.

[Arkku]

I vote Vaarsuvius. (But I still think we should see way more of Redcloak and Team Evil than we have of late.)

[Hamste]

I vote redcloak

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Vaarsuvius

[137beth]

V is my favorite.

[Sylian]

This is what the Grand Finals would've looked like if people voted like they did during the initial poll.

Oh, and I vote for Vaarsuvius.

[littlebum2002]

Wow, another hard one. I'll vote for V, but only by a hair.

[Xihirli]

Vaarsuvius.
It's really hard, though.

[Potatomade]

V, and it's not hard at all!

[Fincher]

Vaarsuvius.

[alwaysbebatman]

It looks like the Roshambo theory might be getting confirmed here...

Vaarsuvius

[lunaticfringe]

Redcloak wins the coin flip.

[2D8HP]

Nod for" Uptight-looking androgynous elf","That Vulcan-in-Fantasy-Drag", "It's Pat", "That pointy-eared pissbucket", "Androgynous twit", "A boring stupid elf", "Pointy-eared, purple-haired, ambiguously-gendered pain in my ass", and "Lust object",

Vaarsuvius

[Gift Jeraff]

Wrongcloak

[alwaysbebatman]

10/4, Vaarsuvius.

[JBiddles]

Vaarsuvius.

[dps]

I vote Redcloak.

[LadyEowyn]

My two favourite characters!

I'm voting for Redcloak, because I think I have a pretty good sense of where V's story is headed now, but feel like Redcloak's has more space to surprise me.

[Laurana]

Most definitely Vaarsuvius.

[B. Dandelion]

Still has to be Redcloak.

[Chei]

Voting Redcloak.

[zimmerwald1915]

10/4, Vaarsuvius.
And now it's 12/8

[martianmister]

And now it's 12/8

What's gonna be your vote? :smalltongue:

[Draconi Redfir]

as much as i loved the days of their hypothetical relationship and child in the crack-ships thread that i wasn't around for most of, my vote still goes to

Redcloak!

[zimmerwald1915]

What's gonna be your vote? :smalltongue:
Wouldn't you like to know? :smalltongue:


as much as i loved the days of their hypothetical relationship and child in the crack-ships thread that i wasn't around for most of
Gosh, is that story still floating around the 'net somewhere? Now that you've mentioned it, I'd like to look for it, but I can't even remember the author :smallfrown:

[Bob_McSurly]

Vaarsuivus Cause they're totally less evil ;)

[Ruck]

Redcloak remains one of my top choices.

[keybounce]

Varsuuvious. Or however it's spelled.

Vaarsuvious?

You know what I mean.

[alwaysbebatman]

14/10 Vaarsuvius

[Kantaki]

Walking on the path into darkness for seemingly noble goals is easy.
Trying to leave it is not.

I vote for Vaarsuvius.

[zimmerwald1915]

Walking on the path into darkness for seemingly noble goals is easy.
Trying to leave it is not.

I vote for Vaarsuvius.
Saying you'll do something is much easier than actually doing it.

[alwaysbebatman]

The elf never said that.

[lothos]

This is a hard decision for me.
But I'll have to go Redcloak.

[Bobb]

Nod for Redcloak

[TruDivination]

My vote is Vaarsuvius

[Rogan]

V

Redcloak is a good evil guy, but I like V better

[alwaysbebatman]

17/12 Vaarsuvius. Closes in about 24.

[MrMercury]

Start of Darkness was the first OOTS book I ever read, so I might be a bit biased

Redcloak

[Second Arrow]

Definite vote for the #1 prepared caster in OOTS-verse.

(Redcloak)

[Potatomade]

Definite vote for the #1 prepared caster in OOTS-verse.

Do you mean a caster who has to prepare spells, or "caster who happens to also be prepared for most problems?" Because if it's the second, I'd honestly argue Xykon or Durkon. Xykon for the end of Start of Darkness, and Durkon because... well, I just love this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html).

Durkon's also the answer to the first one for me.

[littlebum2002]

Do you mean a caster who has to prepare spells, or "caster who happens to also be prepared for most problems?" Because if it's the second, I'd honestly argue Xykon or Durkon. Xykon for the end of Start of Darkness, and Durkon because... well, I just love this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html).

Durkon's also the answer to the first one for me.

Durkon is so regularly unprepared for every situation that it was actually lampshaded in the comic.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html

Besides, "preparing your most powerful spell which does extra damage to Evil enemies on a day when you'll be fighting Evil enemies" isn't being prepared, it's just having common sense.

[Potatomade]

Maybe, but I recall him being the game-changing force in a number (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html) of confrontations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html). More than V, anyway. And the only time Redcloak's actually been significant in an encounter was Azure City, at least as a caster. Besides, if I were going to point to a poster child for "unprepared caster," it would be V, who despite preparing the right spells, rarely foresees the consequences of their casting.

[Kish]

Walking on the path into darkness for seemingly noble goals may be easy and trying to leave it may be hard, but walking on the path into darkness for sheer sadism, ego, and casually genocidal racism makes a far less appealing character than a tragic villain.

Redcloak.

[Potatomade]

See, and I'd argue that sadistic, egotistical, genocidal racist was Redcloak.

[littlebum2002]

Maybe, but I recall him being the game-changing force in a number (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html) of confrontations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html). More than V, anyway. And the only time Redcloak's actually been significant in an encounter was Azure City, at least as a caster.

Divine Might and Holy Word are two incredibly powerful spells that ever Cleric, everywhere, prepares every day. The fact that he had these on tap literally proves nothing. Divine Might and Holy Word are two incredibly powerful spells that would be prepared in almost any combat situation.Control Weather, I'll give you, was pretty clever


Besides, if I were going to point to a poster child for "unprepared caster," it would be V, who despite preparing the right spells, rarely foresees the consequences of their casting.

It's kinda funny. In your first post you said:


Do you mean a caster who has to prepare spells, or "caster who happens to also be prepared for most problems?" Because if it's the second, I'd honestly argue Xykon or Durkon.


and then proceeded to give reasons why Durkon is the first type, not the second. If you want to argue that "Durkon is the best caster who has to prepare spells", then his use of Holy Word and Divine Might, and V's failure to foresee the consequences of their actions, are very valid arguments. But instead you argue that "Durkon is prepared for most problems more than V", and then immediately agree that V always seems to have the right spells prepared, and give examples of Durkon just doing normal Cleric stuff in an intelligent way. None of the things you have said in either post point to Durkon being "more prepared" than V, or anyone else for that matter. You're making a great argument, you're just using it to prove the wrong thing.

(I mean: "Besides, if I were going to point to a poster child for "unprepared caster," it would be V, who despite preparing the right spells..." You literally said the poster child for being unprepared is the person who is prepared)


Who is prepared for every circumstance? V, by far.

Who is a better ally to have in a fight? Almost certainly Durkon.

[Kish]

There's no such thing as a spell that every cleric, everywhere, prepares every day--the distress of this forum's optimization culture when such things are pointed out aside.

[littlebum2002]

There's no such thing as a spell that every cleric, everywhere, prepares every day--the distress of this forum's optimization culture when such things are pointed out aside.

You're right, I changed it.

[Potatomade]

It's kinda funny. In your first post you said:


and then proceeded to give reasons why Durkon is the first type, not the second. If you want to argue that "Durkon is the best caster who has to prepare spells", then his use of Holy Word and Divine Might, and V's failure to foresee the consequences of their actions, are very valid arguments. But instead you argue that "Durkon is prepared for most problems more than V", and then immediately agree that V always seems to have the right spells prepared, and give examples of Durkon just doing normal Cleric stuff in an intelligent way. None of the things you have said in either post point to Durkon being "more prepared" than V, or anyone else for that matter. You're making a great argument, you're just using it to prove the wrong thing.

(I mean: "Besides, if I were going to point to a poster child for "unprepared caster," it would be V, who despite preparing the right spells..." You literally said the poster child for being unprepared is the person who is prepared)



The thing is, being prepared for most problems also entails understanding the consequences of casting your spells. That's a necessary prerequisite. Bringing the right tools is ALSO necessary, but they do no good if you don't know how to use them properly. And that's where Durkon succeeds and V fails. Durkon knows how use his tools to accomplish tasks intended for other tools (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html)), has a pretty good toolkit to begin with (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)) and most importantly, knows when to use those tools (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html)).

[Deliverance]

V is for Vaarsuvius.

[martianmister]

Walking on the path into darkness for seemingly noble goals may be easy and trying to leave it may be hard, but walking on the path into darkness for sheer sadism, ego, and casually genocidal racism makes a far less appealing character than a tragic villain.

Redcloak.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/XllSY03S2oOLhanXUKVaZHNy1p689pOVap1n3XVEN4Q_QGpn4l QxaS-buK9du-SIb2U5eksPJ79JOlPZdNVmftuRUhZZVLmO6831T3g=w314-h314-nc

[alwaysbebatman]

18/15 Vaarsuvius.

[Peelee]

Speaking of casually genocidal racism, both have displayed that. Upon realizing their heinousness, both were horrified. In response to their horror at their actions, one decided to try to stop displaying casually genocidal racism, and one just allowed a couple of groups to be excluded from their casually genocidal racism. I do agree one is tragic, I just disagree on which one.

Vaarsuvius.

[B. Dandelion]

Is V's story really all that tragic? Has she suffered a personal loss other than being served with divorce papers? Did she lose sight of some deeply-held principle when she cast Familicide? Has her realization that she did wrong caused her to pay some steep price for repentance?

Redcloak had a lot farther to fall than Vaarsuvius did.

[Peelee]

Is V's story really all that tragic? Has she suffered a personal loss other than being served with divorce papers? Did she lose sight of some deeply-held principle when she cast Familicide? Has her realization that she did wrong caused her to pay some steep price for repentance?

Redcloak had a lot farther to fall than Vaarsuvius did.

V would certainly say there is a steep price for his repentance. Notwithstanding that Redcloak has zero interest in repentance to begin with. Redcloak had a lot farther to fall, sure, but he fell and then started digging.

[Potatomade]

And I'd say losing all self-respect and having a totally shattered worldview counts as a "personal loss." Really, apart from the Order and the mission, what does V have anymore? He/she doesn't have a life outside of this any longer.

[B. Dandelion]

V would certainly say there is a steep price for his repentance.

That being....?


Notwithstanding that Redcloak has zero interest in repentance to begin with. Redcloak had a lot farther to fall, sure, but he fell and then started digging.

Redcloak isn't in a redemptive plotline and indeed may well never be. But the fact that he had farther to fall means "what could have been" is much more of a loss for him than for Vaarsuvius. But V's fall is alleged as the greater tragedy. Or the true tragedy, actually, apparently Redcloak's story isn't tragic at all.


And I'd say losing all self-respect and having a totally shattered worldview counts as a "personal loss." Really, apart from the Order and the mission, what does V have anymore? He/she doesn't have a life outside of this any longer.

V was such an arrogant jerk prior to the Soul Splice arc that I would think having some humility pounded into her could only be a good thing. It's not like she's a complete emotional wreck constantly on the verge of tears or anything. She had a breakdown at the pyramid but there's been no repeat of that behavior. She also has an extremely supportive team of friends behind her.

V lost her spouse (and children) to divorce. That's sad, but... a tragedy? And if "has no life outside the mission" is considered tragic, well... Redcloak would probably be the most tragic person in the series then, wouldn't he? He doesn't even have a name outside the mission!

[Potatomade]

V was such an arrogant jerk prior to the Soul Splice arc that I would think having some humility pounded into her could only be a good thing. It's not like she's a complete emotional wreck constantly on the verge of tears or anything. She had a breakdown at the pyramid but there's been no repeat of that behavior. She also has an extremely supportive team of friends behind her.

Well, yeah. Constant breakdowns would get tiresome, storytelling-wise. This is still essentially a comedy with substantial adventure elements and a good plot. You can't have it be much of a comedy if one of the ensemble cast is constantly boo-hooing about past deeds, and it gets irritating in other contexts, too. V just has to buckle up and get the job done, so he/she is doing that. None of that keeps V's story from being tragic.


V lost her spouse (and children) to divorce. That's sad, but... a tragedy?

Considering how much somebody's family can mean to them, I'd say yeah, that's totally a tragedy. That can hurt as much or more than anything else, knowing that someone who used to love you doesn't anymore. And I wouldn't exactly say that V's gotten over it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1046.html)




And if "has no life outside the mission" is considered tragic, well... Redcloak would probably be the most tragic person in the series then, wouldn't he? He doesn't even have a name outside the mission!

Well, yeah, that's what some people would argue. I don't think Redcloak is tragic at all, but that's just because he's ridiculously insane, not because he hasn't suffered enough for his goals.

[littlebum2002]

The thing is, being prepared for most problems also entails understanding the consequences of casting your spells. That's a necessary prerequisite. Bringing the right tools is ALSO necessary, but they do no good if you don't know how to use them properly. And that's where Durkon succeeds and V fails. Durkon knows how use his tools to accomplish tasks intended for other tools (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html)), has a pretty good toolkit to begin with (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)) and most importantly, knows when to use those tools (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html)).

You are absolutely correct. When Durkon happens to prepare the right tools, he uses them effectively. Unfortunately, this happens so rarely that, when Durkula prepared correctly for a job, Belkar even said "He had a spell prepared that can actually solve our problem! That proves he can't possibly be Durkon!"

Which is why he is the best "prepared caster" and not the "best prepared" caster. When you're the "best prepared" caster, your teammates don't usually comment on how you're never prepared.

[Peelee]

That being....?
Indeed. What price paid could ever be enough (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html)? Even then, he still wants to make restitution, even if he doesn't know how (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html).



Well, yeah, that's what some people would argue. I don't think Redcloak is tragic at all, but that's just because he's ridiculously insane, not because he hasn't suffered enough for his goals.
Also, his full embrace of his fall.

[B. Dandelion]

Indeed. What price paid could ever be enough (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html)? Even then, he still wants to make restitution, even if he doesn't know how (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html).

I think my issue here is that you alleged V's story was tragic while Redcloak's isn't, when the argument you seem to actually want to have is the one about whether V is presently more moral than Redcloak. It's much easier to make that argument, and one can bring up the many... words... Vaarsuvius has spent on how bad she feels and how important making amends should be, and point to that as signs of her sacrifice -- because even acknowledgement of guilt is more than Redcloak has done to atone.

But "V's done more to atone" isn't the point, and even if were, V has in fact done very little so far. Her redemptive plotline is mostly in its infancy. Trying to compare her situation in terms of tragedy to his actually makes her look worse, because she was arrogant right to start out with and has suffered comparably quite less.

"I like Vaarsuvius and vote for her because she's actually working to improve while Redcloak continues to fall further and further" is a fine argument but it wasn't what I took issue with. It's "V is tragic while Redcloak isn't" -- well, why? What's so tragic about her fall from grace?

[alwaysbebatman]

Meanwhile, Vaarsuvius wins 19/15. Weird, huh?

[Peelee]

I
"I like Vaarsuvius and vote for her because she's actually working to improve while Redcloak continues to fall further and further" is a fine argument but it wasn't what I took issue with. It's "V is tragic while Redcloak isn't" -- well, why? What's so tragic about her fall from grace?

V put power above all else. Put off his mate, his children, his personal life, all to attain more power. And he got it, too. He was even given the choice directly by his mate, the choice of power or family. He chose power. He then lost both. Id call that a tragic arc.

Meanwhile, Redcloak sees his own depravity, and chooses to be more depraved. He's anted, lost, and just stayed at the table making bigger and bigger bets. When he finally goes bust, I won't be sorry.

Start of Darkness was a tragedy until the end. When he did what he did in that battle, he stopped being tragic. When he looks in the mirror and affirms it'll be worth it, he's nothing more than a self-righteous ass.

[MrMercury]

Well, yeah, that's what some people would argue. I don't think Redcloak is tragic at all, but that's just because he's ridiculously insane, not because he hasn't suffered enough for his goals.

Have you read start of darkness perchance?

[Potatomade]

Have you read start of darkness perchance?

Yes, and that's exactly what makes me think Redcloak is loonier than Xykon, Belkar, and Tarquin put together.

At least they're not willing to wipe out all life to prove a point. Pretending to be pro-goblinoid when you're a-OK with letting every last one of them get unmade (so no serving the Dark One for them!) is ass-slapping crazy, and kills any sympathy I might have had for Redcloak.

[Kish]

V put power above all else. Put off his mate, his children, his personal life, all to attain more power. And he got it, too. He was even given the choice directly by his mate, the choice of power or family. He chose power. He then lost both. Id call that a tragic arc.
Lost both? I know Vaarsuvius just got a negative level or two, but I'm not seeing where they stopped being a mighty wizard, or stopped increasing their power as a wizard. Keeping the Soul Splice power forever was never an option; that they didn't realize there would be a time limit on their "complete and total ultimate arcane power" resulted from nothing more grand than them wording their question to the Oracle carelessly. They kept the Soul Splice until it was torn from them.


Meanwhile, Redcloak sees his own depravity, and chooses to be more depraved. He's anted, lost, and just stayed at the table making bigger and bigger bets. When he finally goes bust, I won't be sorry.

Start of Darkness was a tragedy until the end. When he did what he did in that battle, he stopped being tragic. When he looks in the mirror and affirms it'll be worth it, he's nothing more than a self-righteous ass.
Sticking to your bad choice until the end is not part of the definition of a tragic villain, but in fact nullifies it? Lots of Shakespeare characters need to be reclassified then.

:redcloak: And damned be him that first cries "Hold, enough!"

On an unrelated note, observing this post's mentioning one of Redcloak's murders but making no reference at all to Vaarsuvius' crimes, I wonder how much of a correlation there is between rating Vaarsuvius highly, and finding genocidal racism against "monsters" something less then entirely condemnable.

[D.One]

Vaarsuvius

Because he's a wizard, and I like wizards
Because she's developing more and more as a character
Because yes
Just because

[Arkku]

Meanwhile, Vaarsuvius wins 19/15. Weird, huh?

Personally I expected this outcome, so it doesn't seem weird at all… I feel the two characters are in some sense quite similar and thus probably have a lot of overlapping "fans" (voters). In Redcloak vs Belkar those overlapping votes would have gone to Redcloak along with votes from those preferring the more "serious" characters over comedy ones (such as Belkar), but in Redcloak vs Vaarsuvius their order was #1 V and #2 Red in the preliminary ranking already.

[Peelee]

Lost both? I know Vaarsuvius just got a negative level or two, but I'm not seeing where they stopped being a mighty wizard, or stopped increasing their power as a wizard.

Damn, and I even wrote that his mate asked him to erase "wizard" on his character sheet. Apparently.

Yes, the soul splice was never permanent. However, V never willingly have any of the splices up.

And calls to me not agreeing with genocidal racism aside, I'm obliquely referring to one specific murder. I believe every time I've mentioned Redcloak's genocidal racism, I've also mentioned V's. But feel free to throw around accusations like it's nothing. It's endearing.

[Roberto]

Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak Redcloak

[Ruck]

Sticking to your bad choice until the end is not part of the definition of a tragic villain, but in fact nullifies it? Lots of Shakespeare characters need to be reclassified then.

:redcloak: And damned be him that first cries "Hold, enough!"
I agree with you on this. If Macbeth decides "Darn, I really screwed this up, I should abdicate," that doesn't become more of a tragedy.


On an unrelated note, observing this post's mentioning one of Redcloak's murders but making no reference at all to Vaarsuvius' crimes, I wonder how much of a correlation there is between rating Vaarsuvius highly, and finding genocidal racism against "monsters" something less then entirely condemnable.

I for one am weary of and find shallow and superficial the idea that you can judge a person's character by their tastes in fiction.

[B. Dandelion]

V put power above all else. Put off his mate, his children, his personal life, all to attain more power. And he got it, too. He was even given the choice directly by his mate, the choice of power or family. He chose power. He then lost both. Id call that a tragic arc.

It's so odd. It wasn't long ago that I was arguing with Jasdoif about how Redcloak's choices being generally restricted between awful options was a major part of his character. I hadn't even thought to contrast that with any other character, but you specifically bring to my attention the example of Vaarsuvius being provided a good option -- and actually passing it up. I'll keep it in mind should occasion arise for me to revisit that argument.

Speaking of irony, yeah. "Be Careful What You Wish For." As Kish noted, Vaarsuvius was never offered permanent power by the fiends and after losing the Splices she still remains a high-level wizard. Her family is likewise "lost" to her but still alive and well. So... she got divorced and lost power she was told she wouldn't be able to keep forever anyway, and that's not just something that rises to the level of tragedy, but is a worse tragedy than Redcloak's?


Meanwhile, Redcloak sees his own depravity, and chooses to be more depraved. He's anted, lost, and just stayed at the table making bigger and bigger bets. When he finally goes bust, I won't be sorry.

Start of Darkness was a tragedy until the end. When he did what he did in that battle, he stopped being tragic. When he looks in the mirror and affirms it'll be worth it, he's nothing more than a self-righteous ass.

Okay. So Redcloak was tragic but ceased to have that quality once he became too evil and you no longer sympathized with him.

But would V then not be tragic if she hadn't (eventually) realized genocide is evil and that Familicide was a mistake? If Redcloak owned up to his mistakes would he retroactively become tragic again? Maybe there would be a "tragedy gap" in his timeline that he's only tragic outside of?

It still very much sounds like this is more about sympathy than tragedy. I appreciate you explaining your position, but I think it's one that's all but impossible to sustain without some kind of radical redefinition of terms. It's not really necessary. V can be more sympathetic, likable, or otherwise worthy of your preference than Redcloak without being more tragic. It's not a desirable trait for characters you like anyway. Being tragic is quite possibly going to translate for him as "dies unredeemed" (or the slightly lesser alternative in "dies as redemption"). V will not meet such an ignoble end.

[drazen]

It's a really, really hard call. Redcloak's Captain Ahab is wonderfully done, but I've always had a soft spot for Vaarsuvius, so I think I'll go that way.

But it's really, really close.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Redcloak, if this is still open.

[Hamste]

Meanwhile, Vaarsuvius wins 19/15. Weird, huh?

It is unfortunately closed. At least your vote wouldn't have been the tie breaker or anything.

[Meijin]

V. I'm a fan of well handled gender ambiguity.

[Meijin]

Although Redcloak's cleric duel was one of my favorite strips.