Ideas for a non-Euclidean dungeon

[Jacque]

Hello Playground

My group of level 13 PCs is rapidly approaching the underground ruins of an ancient race originating from the Void. I have portrayed this race as being very alien to the material world both by their way of thinking but also through their powers (psionic).

I am considering how their dungeon should be designed. They are not bound by Euclidean rules as we are, and I really want this to be obvious in their designs, traps, remaining denizens, and cultural artifacts. Their rooms should have an other-worldly vibe to them that is difficult to fathom for us.

Does anyone have any ideas for a dungeon design with these theme in mind? Or perhaps anyone know of any literature that I could look into that might give inspiration and ideas?

[DarkKnightJin]

Hello Playground

My group of level 13 PCs is rapidly approaching the underground ruins of an ancient race originating from the Void. I have portrayed this race as being very alien to the material world both by their way of thinking but also through their powers (psionic).

I am considering how their dungeon should be designed. They are not bound by Euclidean rules as we are, and I really want this to be obvious in their designs, traps, remaining denizens, and cultural artifacts. Their rooms should have an other-worldly vibe to them that is difficult to fathom for us.

Does anyone have any ideas for a dungeon design with these theme in mind? Or perhaps anyone know of any literature that I could look into that might give inspiration and ideas?

For some reason, MC Escher springs to mind..
Not a clue why, he just does.

[Toadkiller]

Yeah. Staircases that loop back to where they started could be fun. Wait to see how long it takes to get curious about every floor being exactly the same.

Also a little “mouse hole” in the door that becomes a huge entranceway if they walk directly at it. Paintings that are portals. Portals that are paintings.

[DarkKnightJin]

Yeah. Staircases that loop back to where they started could be fun. Wait to see how long it takes to get curious about every floor being exactly the same.

Also a little “mouse hole” in the door that becomes a huge entranceway if they walk directly at it. Paintings that are portals. Portals that are paintings.

Take some Cartoon logic, and go bananas.
Splash in some Inception for good measure.

Pretty much, if you feel it's alien enough to have your players go "Okay, when did we end up in Wonderland?", you're doing it right.

[Unoriginal]

Just to say, Jacque, a sphere is non-euclidean. It doesn't mean "structure not bound by reality".

Now, something you could do is to connect doorways and staircases to other points of the dungeons than the one they should.

Like, you are in room 1, you open the door and instead of room 2 there is room 15. Or you climb two stories and you find yourself in the basement.

[OracleofWuffing]

"What are you doing on the ceiling?"
"What are you doing on the ceiling?"

[jiriku]

Fundamentals of "fantasy non-Euclidean architecture" are that:


Things that seem parallel converge or diverge
Things that seem convergent are divergent or parallel
Things that seem divergent are convergent or parallel



Non-Euclidean structures are visually confusing, and looking at them for too long should induce dizziness and/or nausea. The trouble is that they are essentially three-dimensional structures that are "mapped" or shrink-wrapped over the surface of a fourth spatial dimension -- but the PCs are unable to perceive this fourth dimension except by physically navigating it. Thus, perspective and typical expectations about how to move around don't work like they should, and it's impossible to reconcile how a space looks with how it operates.

Example non-Euclidean structures include:

Straight paths that end up back at the starting point, despite not curving.
Paths that seem as if they lead to a central location do not actually arrive there; or one arrives and the other does not; or one path leads to the destination more quickly even though both are the same length.
Where two perpendicular edges meet at a right angle, somehow the corner doesn't make a right angle.
Paths that are level, but somehow lead up or down.
Stairs that go up or down, but somehow end up not changing your elevation at all.
Ledges that are appear very narrow, but are wide and easy when traversed.
Ledges that appear wide and safe, but are narrow and difficult when traversed.
Containers for which you can see what's inside only when the container is open, but can reach what's inside only when it is closed.
Doors that block line of sight when only when open.
A platform elevated a step above the floor that also requires you to step up when going back from platform to floor.



An important part of the wrongness of these structures is that they shouldn't operate consistently throughout the whole area -- the whole point of the non-Euclidean mind**** is that you can't find a pattern in the chaos.

Hope this helps!

[Unoriginal]

I don't want to sound rude, but can we just stop using the word "non-Euclidean" as if it meant "not bound by the rules of architecture/geometry/reality", please?


THOSE are non-Euclidean shape compared to an Euclidean one:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSh3fl9gZG6zlQ6WCwOUkffPmxDutiM9 o6A_4cJCZeSuj1ZeUAs

And this is Euclidean geometry compared to the others

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56ee72d9c2ea51bd675641da/t/57fdabb6725e25594e4721e3/1476242369166/

[Willie the Duck]

If it bothers you that much, Unoriginal, propose an alternative term.


As for ideas, one of the best 'traps' I saw in Mage: the Ascension was a location-magic trap that made someone exist in four places at once, with each of their four sides (left, right, front, back) touching a wall. That way it didn't matter which way they turned or tried to move, they were stopped by a block of one of their 'instances.' That was in a game where flight was harder and I think that was how you were supposed to defeat it (or destroy a barrier, or anti-magic).

Just remember, there's going to be hair-fine distinction between what is fun and what is asinine, between what is clever and what is frustrating, between what is a reasonable challenge and what is 'the DM is screwing with us.' I can readily see accusations from your players of this dungeon being a Tomb of Horrors-like 'this is not a thinking person's dungeon, this is think exactly like the DM dungeon!' kind of thing that makes your players upset with you. You know your players better than we do, so we can't tell you where the lines are. Just be careful (and/or make sure the whole thing is set up in a 'this will get too weird/hard for you, but it is all optional. You are supposed to walk away when you've had your fill' kind of trapping.

[Beechgnome]

Another way you can mess with perspective is scale. Have the party in a room with a door on one wall and a teeny tiny door on another, and in the centre of the room is a small toy castle.

When they go through the door, they emerge in a room with a small box (with a tiny door) In the centre. Insects buzz about, they are just annoying, however.

When they lift the box lid they see the room they were just in. This room also has a regular door.

When they go through that...They end up in the tiny castle. And they'll need to get out and find the tiny door from the first room. And hope those giant insects are not about.

You can add other features to make it more a puzzle... A giant key you have to go to the giant room to grab then shrink by bringing it with you, for example. But the basic idea is that each door changes perspective in surprising, and perhaps unsettling ways.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just remember, there's going to be hair-fine distinction between what is fun and what is asinine, between what is clever and what is frustrating, between what is a reasonable challenge and what is 'the DM is screwing with us.' That's a very important consideration. Since the players are not "in" the situation and it's alien to both player and character, the DM has triple the challenge of description and presentation of what they see, hear, and feel.

Back when we did a lot of mapping in dungeons, even something as simple as sloping passageways could disorient a party if the slope wasn't detected. Odd rooms where gravity worked sideways, or backwards, were novel now and again, but a never ending stream of non primary world experiences often led to player frustration.

[Unoriginal]

If it bothers you that much, Unoriginal, propose an alternative term.

Eldritch, non-rational, non-causality, Realm-touched, unreal, space-twisted, phantasmagorical, Escher-esque.



Just remember, there's going to be hair-fine distinction between what is fun and what is asinine, between what is clever and what is frustrating, between what is a reasonable challenge and what is 'the DM is screwing with us.' I can readily see accusations from your players of this dungeon being a Tomb of Horrors-like 'this is not a thinking person's dungeon, this is think exactly like the DM dungeon!' kind of thing that makes your players upset with you. You know your players better than we do, so we can't tell you where the lines are. Just be careful (and/or make sure the whole thing is set up in a 'this will get too weird/hard for you, but it is all optional. You are supposed to walk away when you've had your fill' kind of trapping.

Yeah, there is always that risk.

Once, our DM had our group pursue a demon through a castle that was affected by a ridiculous amount of chaos magic , and while the others mostly liked the cartoony hijinks and the messed up distances, I found it annoying "random for random's sake", especially because it was just a big retcon in to justify said demon auto-escaping when we could have stopped her otherwise.

In other circumstances, that kind of chaos castle could have been cool, but the presentation was pretty bad.

[Willie the Duck]

In other circumstances, that kind of chaos castle could have been cool, but the presentation was pretty bad.

Yep. Sadly the only advice I think I can give the OP is 'don't have bad presentation,' which is right up there with, 'think smarter not harder' in terms of unhelpful advice.

[smcmike]

An important part of the wrongness of these structures is that they shouldn't operate consistently throughout the whole area -- the whole point of the non-Euclidean mind**** is that you can't find a pattern in the chaos.

I get this sentiment, but disagree. A dungeon with no patterns at all is like radio static. What you want is a really weird, inhuman pattern. If the players have no pattern grasp onto, there is nothing interesting to figure out about the dungeon, and it is just DM whimsy.

One way to do this is to make the dungeon some sort of outsider interpretation of a specific aspect of human culture that interests them, like IT and clowns, or Superman and mid-century American manliness. If they are SO weird, they need some reason to make a dungeon that is legible and navigable to humans at all.

I think it’s also worth considering your presentation. How does your party typically operate, at the table? Do they draw maps? If so, that’s a perfect way to ease them in, by narrating a dungeon that makes no sense whatsoever when drawn. If you are feeling particularly inspired, one way to make a dungeon that doesn’t make sense as physical space is to not think about it as physical space. The physical space is just a side effect. It’s really a poem.

[Aett_Thorn]

As for monsters that remain there, as well as possible ideas for the dungeon itself, have corners/vertical changes in the dungeon that lead to the players not having line-of-sight, but the monsters (who think in higher dimensions) do. Meaning that the monsters might be able to shoot at the party from around corners. Once the party has been shot at this way, allow them to attempt to shoot back that way (maybe with disadvantage) if they want to.

For others, have them be on a different surface from the party (the walls or ceiling), but still count as being "next to" the party in terms of being in melee range. Have maps of each room with the floors, ceilings, and walls all laid out, and the players will need to figure out how to operate in a more three-dimensional, freaky format. For instance, the ranged-attack party members might need to shoot at the enemy who is 30' above them, but the melee guy can move one square over and make a melee attack to hit them.

[lordarkness]

I agree that if there is no pattern it will only be a frustrating experience so I think you should give them a a very strong pattern that they can learn but one that is very alien to anything they have ever seen since. Also, since they originate from the void you may want to include elements suggestive of that.

So for one, mess with time. It either stands still while they are in there existing outside of time, or time itself is inconsistent within, perhaps something as simple as rolling a d4 along with initiative to determine how many actions a character gets each round.

In terms of space you can either make it very open and minimalist, or make it a dungeon that is devoid of any corners whatsoever so that everything slopes and curves but there are no steps and the rooms and hallways flow like a bowl of uncooked spaghetti.

Perhaps instead of each room connected by walls, each room is instead a sphere in a void like a tiny planet with its own gravity but with more challenging line of sight issues. Each room is connected by portals or by even by traps. You could toss in other astrological inspired elements like energy storms that meander through the void or objects that orbit the rooms altering them the way a sun or moon affects the surface of a nearby planet.

I would suggest manipulating something else unexpectedly as well like making elemental magics and effects more limited or extended in range (which would work for and against your party).

In terms of denizens, anything (even something mundane) that is twisted by madness or with a mastery of the physics here would be a challenge for your party. Otherwise just be careful not to give the villains too many advantages that the party cannot also learn to take advantage of.

Hmm, I may even steal my own ideas for something I'm writing. Thanks for the inspiration.

[Gorgo]

The old D&D module "Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits" had a dungeon layout in the spirit of the one you're describing. Might be worth a look.

[MrStabby]

I did this once. Badly.

I thought it would be cool and different. I thought people would be amazed at my originality.

It sucked.

So complex rules and distance calculations bogged the game down. Descriptions were important to understand but got repetitive. Also it was a gimmick not something very relevant - the large scale structure of the dungeon had no impact on beating the stuffing out of an enemy next to you and there were no real engaging puzzles that built on the structure.

The dungeon was slow and tedious and the players hated it. Wandering round lost in something you can't map wasn't as fun as I thought it would be.

Do this type of dungeon but don't do what I did. Instead make it fun.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

The easy way to make a higher dimension dungeon is to make the players navigate a 3d space while only having 2d motion.

So make a three floor dungeon and place the players on the second floor. Stairs loop endlessly because if you go left, up, right, down you end up back where you started. If somebody folded the play mat a player could seemly teleport from one point to another.

Save yourself the headache of thinking in a dimension that our mind cannot comprehend and think in a dimension that we can



A three dimensional being would see walls as flat so would have no problem going "up and over" them

A trap is only dangerous where it intersects the play mat. So a swinging axe trap would appear as two blades that burst out of the ground on opposite sides of the hallway marked only by a small chunk of wood darting back and forth

[Aembrosia]

I think you described antichamber: https://youtu.be/aGsnm2nOnso

[Dappershire]

I don't want to sound rude, but can we just stop using the word "non-Euclidean" as if it meant "not bound by the rules of architecture/geometry/reality", please?


No. Because the idea of a Non-Euclidean area to explore, comes from the descriptions of Gustaf Johansen, Second Mate of the Emma.

His use of the term "non-Euclidean" was unlikely to be based upon the spacial geometry of the building, but rather how spacetime itself curved around. Einstein posited that space alone can not be curved. But, if that is not the case, if spacetime itself can be made to carry the curve, then all sorts of geometric oddities can occur in an area. Straight will not be straight. The horizon, be it land or sea, will curve, or even tilt and angle. The ground beneath one's feet could appear to fall straight down, but in truth flow straight ahead. Normal movement of the heavens will spin all about ones head.

Time Dilation and Geometric Lensing will be a common hazard. Angles can, from one perspective, meet, and from others, come nowhere near one another.

Traps and ambushes in such a place would be unpredictable and hard to manage. No perception check in the world could be high enough to prepare for such a place.

So in conclusion, No. I will still use "Non-Euclidean" as my go to phrase when describing geometry spawned from the Void.

OP, read The Call of Chthulhu. Its a short story, you don't have to read the entirety of Lovecraft's works, and it is chock full of non-Euclidean descriptions that should help you in creating your dungeon.

Unoriginal, because you appear to enjoy your science, I direct you to a scientific publication "Possible Bubbles of Spacetime Curvature in the South Pacific" By Benjamin K Tippett. I borrowed liberally from his paper in the above.

[Asmotherion]

Hello Playground

My group of level 13 PCs is rapidly approaching the underground ruins of an ancient race originating from the Void. I have portrayed this race as being very alien to the material world both by their way of thinking but also through their powers (psionic).

I am considering how their dungeon should be designed. They are not bound by Euclidean rules as we are, and I really want this to be obvious in their designs, traps, remaining denizens, and cultural artifacts. Their rooms should have an other-worldly vibe to them that is difficult to fathom for us.

Does anyone have any ideas for a dungeon design with these theme in mind? Or perhaps anyone know of any literature that I could look into that might give inspiration and ideas?

The most direct approach is Lovecraft and the Cthulhu Mythos... Which is easily refluffed into Mind Flayers really as the creators of the dungeon.

So, what you need is to actually include non-linear movements. When they move through a door they could end up in a very diferent part of the dungeon. Every time they move through a door/gate or turn around a corner (or some other non-linear prograssion), roll percentage, with an increasing 10% chance of someone ending up in an other space than everyone else. Make this also defy gravitational logic (but don't allow them to randomly walk on walls without passing through a point that allows it). If two people interact on paralel interfaces, they won't be able to touch each other as if one is a ghost to the other.

Hope that helps :)

[Sans.]

I'm thinking about the home of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn from Wheel of Time.


The constructs of the Aelfinn's world consist of curves and spirals; in contrast the constructs of the Eelfinn's world consist of sharp, straight lines and angles. Given the web-like play area of the Snakes and Foxes game, and the notion that both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn share the same and yet separate dimensions, it can be speculated that the Finn's dimension resembles a web in more than name; the Aelfinn inhabiting the curving spirals, and the Eelfinn inhabiting the spokes.Additionally, pathways through their realm appear to be governed by laws of physics so different from those of the human world as to appear completely random. For instance, in order to proceed forward to a particular location in their realm, one might have to take seemingly random turns, backtrack, go forward, and backtrack again.

[LordEntrails]

Portal? The game.

The biggest thing there (from my understanding, I never played) is simple the change in gravity between surfaces and the need to jump between surfaces.

[Chugger]

Lotta smart people here - good to see!

My only advice would be (1) try to feel out the point where this non-normal geometry stops becoming entertaining and becomes just a chore - and work out a shortcut at that point (like "at this point you're getting used to the area's weirdness and can navigate reasonably well most of the time" - something like that). As cool as this is to start with, it might become irritating if too much. And (2) if there could be some larger point to it or epic theme or something that would be awesome - if it doesn't come to you that's okay - that they're from somewhere else and are truly "alien" might be enough - but if there is some "big picture" issue where it all comes together and leads to "wow", that would be epic.

[twas_Brillig]

I really appreciate this series of articles ([1] (http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2012/11/non-euclidean-architecture.html), [2] (http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2013/05/non-euclidean-architecture-part-2.html), [3] (http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2016/09/non-euclidean-geography.html)), for all that I'm pretty much convinced running most of the ideas in them would suck.

[iTreeby]

Having guards and wards be cast everywhere is basically as frustrating as walking through an escher painting. You just keep telling them they feel like they went the wrong way as they hack through spiderwebs.

[JakOfAllTirades]

There was an article in Dragon magazine back in the 80s about using tesseracts for dungeons, how to map them, and what happens when adventurers stumble around in them. (It's maddening.) The poor soul who tried to map it on 2D graph paper was about to lose his mind until he figured out what was going on. :smallbiggrin:

[Angelmaker]

I think some ideas here are great, others migt simply be annoying.

The idea, for example, to bring in higher dimensions is a bit puzzling to me. I mean there is a higher we can't interact with higher dimensions if they exist because we lack the perception of it. If you have seen Gravity, it's a good example of how confusing higher dimensions are, in my mind, and it's really not something you should ever be doing except for story purposes.

Then what about mapping? If you present a map to the players it's mostly pointless of doing that. If they map thrmselves, describing to them what's going on will be a pain in thr ass.

So with me being a mostly pesimistic person about this sort of endeavour and probably lacking the phantasy do pull it of rigt, I'd suggest simply basing your dungeon on a different base number like 3 or 5 sides rooms might be enough to be alien enough while stil being in euclidean system.

As a player, i'd very much like to figure out what's going on and whatever reason stands behind this place, it should be something i can follow. Simply stating that it's incomprehensible will make me shut down in the game and make me become uninterested.

So if it's really escher? We can't navigate tgis dungeon at all until we find the Mcguffin? I'll just say "we go forward until we see something interesting/comprehensible." And be done with it without interacting what you actually put tons of work in creating and that would be a shame.

Going back to the idea of 3 sided rooms, for example. Exploring the 3 chambers interconnected with 1 corridor each ( for a total of 3 corridors will not result in us finding what we want/need until we as players realize that all corridors are placed at the pointy ends of the structures so we have the brilliant idea of checking the celing tip of the pyramid to reveal the second level and recognizing that the ornaments you described in great detail on the walls are really just really fancey ladders. That'd be something I'd probably do lacking ghe imagination to do something more strange.

Whatevver you decide on, can you make a quick presentation of your idea here and maybe even let us know how it worked out for you?

Thanks :)

[JPicasso]

Here's an idea, put the map TO the dungeon on a flat sheet of paper, that needs to be put around a cylinder in order to read it. Then when they enter the dungeon, the west and east directions will eventually meet. So map exits from one side of the paper to the other.

In order to continue the hint of how it works, have the password to the sealed BBEG door require the same mechanic.

On top of all that, and, for our purposes, on top of our cylinder, the BBEG is standing at the center of the circle. But since we are squishing a square into a circle, near the edge of the circular room, movement takes more, say 30' a square, but near the center, it's back to 5' a square.
This will give BBEG some rounds to thwart the PCs. Gust of wind is probably useful to him.

See diagram.

http://help.autodesk.com/cloudhelp/2015/ENU/3DSMax/images/GUID-5CEF2BF6-62A1-433D-92D7-D77876EDBA5F.png

[Hrugner]

Here's an idea, put the map TO the dungeon on a flat sheet of paper, that needs to be put around a cylinder in order to read it. Then when they enter the dungeon, the west and east directions will eventually meet. So map exits from one side of the paper to the other.

In order to continue the hint of how it works, have the password to the sealed BBEG door require the same mechanic.

On top of all that, and, for our purposes, on top of our cylinder, the BBEG is standing at the center of the circle. But since we are squishing a square into a circle, near the edge of the circular room, movement takes more, say 30' a square, but near the center, it's back to 5' a square.
This will give BBEG some rounds to thwart the PCs. Gust of wind is probably useful to him.

See diagram.

http://help.autodesk.com/cloudhelp/2015/ENU/3DSMax/images/GUID-5CEF2BF6-62A1-433D-92D7-D77876EDBA5F.png

This is the easiest way. If you're using a hex grid then you could use a sphere instead. If you want to go crazy you could use a hexgrid-sphere and have each of the required pentagons be an open space that moves you to the inside of the sphere. Really though, the cylinder is more than enough confusion for running and for playing. Amping it up by having the cylinder narrower in parts is probably all you really want.

Let your players know that space is weird early on. For instance, spending several rounds approaching an imp sitting on a book watching it grow to enormous size or seeing what the players think is a mirrored hall turn out to be a drastic shortness of space letting them see themselves. Find ways to make this helpful to the players so they think about how to use it rather than how to avoid it.

[NoAnonimo]

So, if you want to create your own easy-made non-euclidean dungeon, grab a dice (It can be a d4, d6, d8... whatever) and imagine it sides are chambers.

Let's pick, for example, a d6 and make a dungeon from it. For whatever reason*, you are on a tipical room: four walls, a ceiling and a floor. They are all flat (90 degrees corners). There is a door on every wall, one on the ceiling and one on the floor, and you can walk/climb and enter the one you want. In this example, you started on a chamber with a water fountain and one enemy (picture it as the 1 face on your dice). You kill the enemy and decide to walk to the east door (let's say, the 4 on your dice. It can be any other number except 6, since in this example there is not real 'east', but characters don't know it yet). On the 4 room, you get a treassure. Then procced to the -aparent- east again, and you get to the 6 chamber (There is not option here, since opposites sides of a dice sums 7, and you started on the 1 side). You can still walk east, and eventually you will enter a loop: 1>4>6>3>1...

Feel free to adjust as needed: You can use a different sided dice, you can make many rooms on each face, you can even make something crazy, like a dice-on-a-dice-face kind of space, if you will.

Quick note here: Since this example curves arount itself, there are no outer walls of the dungeon, so there's not typical way in. Adjust as needed (Maybe the 1 face has an adittional door? maybe you get there by magic? maybe you are inside your own mind? get creative! Traditional logic doesn't tie you anymore!)

If you're new with this and can't think about non-euclidean spaces on abstract, make sure you create your own paper 6-sided dice and draw your actual dungeon there. It will help a lot.

[smcmike]

So, if you want to create your own easy-made non-euclidean dungeon, grab a dice (It can be a d4, d6, d8... whatever) and imagine it sides are chambers.

Let's pick, for example, a d6 and make a dungeon from it. For whatever reason*, you are on a tipical room: four walls, a ceiling and a floor. They are all flat (90 degrees corners). There is a door on every wall, one on the ceiling and one on the floor, and you can walk/climb and enter the one you want. In this example, you started on a chamber with a water fountain and one enemy (picture it as the 1 face on your dice). You kill the enemy and decide to walk to the east door (let's say, the 4 on your dice. It can be any other number except 6, since in this example there is not real 'east', but characters don't know it yet). On the 4 room, you get a treassure. Then procced to the -aparent- east again, and you get to the 6 chamber (There is not option here, since opposites sides of a dice sums 7, and you started on the 1 side). You can still walk east, and eventually you will enter a loop: 1>4>6>3>1...

Feel free to adjust as needed: You can use a different sided dice, you can make many rooms on each face, you can even make something crazy, like a dice-on-a-dice-face kind of space, if you will.

Quick note here: Since this example curves arount itself, there are no outer walls of the dungeon, so there's not typical way in. Adjust as needed (Maybe the 1 face has an adittional door? maybe you get there by magic? maybe you are inside your own mind? get creative! Traditional logic doesn't tie you anymore!)

If you're new with this and can't think about non-euclidean spaces on abstract, make sure you create your own paper 6-sided dice and draw your actual dungeon there. It will help a lot.

This is very nice!

[Ganymede]

The Tomb of the Nine Gods has a fun little bit of non-Euclidean geometry in it: a gravity-bending ring that loops both into a separate reality and back in on itself.

(I have yet to hear any campaign horror stories of parties passing through the ring and getting sidetracked in the alternate tomb, but I'm sure they're out there.)

[Pex]

A Tesseract

[sir_argo]

Am I the only one that thinks if you had a non-euclidean dungeon, I wouldn't actually know it? There's an old book on geometry called Flatland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland) that tells the story of a sphere (3D creature) that visits flatland and talks with a square (2D creature). Sphere tries to tell him about 3 dimensions, but the square just can't grasp it. Well, even if you bent the flatland at 90° or crunched it up like a piece of paper you're going to throw in the garbage can, Mr. Square who lives in flatland would be unaware of the bends and wrinkles.

So what I'm trying to say it, don't get complex. The characters literally won't be able to perceive the extra-dimensional bends. Instead, just cheat and do as someone else suggested and plot points on the map that connect to each other. If the characters try to hand draw a map, it'll get all jacked up. If you want the characters to actually perceive something weird, have doors that when closed do not re-open back to the same place.

That being said, it would be hilarious to have characters that split up or get separated find out that when they join back up, one group's floor isn't the same as the other group's floor. "Hey, how are you guys sticking to that wall?" "Um, we're not sticking to a wall... you are." Even funnier would be them trying to figure out how to fix that!

[Tiadoppler]

If you're trying to do a space-time bending dungeon and you want your players to figure it out/have fun, don't include a random element. Don't move characters based on a % roll or have arbitrary things happen. Have a specific ruleset that the space follows. Make it fairly simple in the first area, so players can figure out that there is an alien set of rules in place and start learning them, then you can include weirder shapes. Having things behave inconsistently (or even seemingly inconsistently) will frustrate people, especially if they aren't mathematicians who enjoy a good dynamic 4-space puzzle.

The quickest way to lose a party's interest in a cool dungeon is not having consistency. A doorway that teleports you to a random room is cool for a magic-themed labyrinth, but doesn't make sense for a warped space-time one unless the warped space-time is rotating/shifting in an extraordinarily specific way.

I'd design the first room/dungeon, then try to explain every feature/trap out loud. If there's any feature that is "just because" or "to make things more random" instead of "a direct result of the shape of the dungeon," take it out or leave it for a later, more complicated dungeon.

[Bohandas]

two simple methods

1.) Angular deficit/conic defect : Cut a quadrant out of the paper you're gonna draw the map on and treat the exposed edges of the remaining quadrants as connedted

2.) Multiply connected space: This just means that rooms that ought not to be adjacent to each other can connect and rooms that ought to occupy the same space don't. For example say there are three square rooms : A, B, and C with doors in the center of each wall; you can go east from room A to get to room B and east from room B to get to Room C, but if you walk east of room C it takes you to the south door of room B, and if you go out the north door of room A it takes you to the north door of room D. Another good example of this would be the classic cartoon chase scene gag wherein a character will duck into a door in a hallway only to find themselves reentering the very same hallway from the opposite side

[GreyBlack]

Build 10 rooms and a random encounter table. Every time the players enter a room, roll to see what room they enter. Denote one of these rooms as the entrance and one as the exit and whenever they enter the room, that indicates that they got flipped around.

[NoAnonimo]

This is very nice!
Thank you, kind sir. I may be able to explain a little further the idea of a non-euclidean dungeon.

Let me try to introduce you to the logic of non-euclidean shapes, on a simple fashion.

First: Non-euclidean shapes doesn't mean 4d shapes. So, there's no need to do a Tesseract (a.k.a. 4d cube). I really don't encourage it for beginers, First try and draw on shapes you can grab on your hand (or at least think of).



Am I the only one that thinks if you had a non-euclidean dungeon, I wouldn't actually know it?
No. You are right, the non-euclidean logic is a closed one (as the euclidean logic is). Let me explain, if you live on an euclidean world, you won't know about non-euclidean shapes. It may be easier to think about this the following way:
Let's say you are an ant. A normal non-caster ant (barbariant?). You percieve your world as flat. You can walk forever north, south, east or west, and you will know exactly how far away you are from your starting point.

In this example, your journey starts on a bar. Its called Euclidean Bar. Random insect tells you to go to the hive dungeon, so you walk 10 miles north, then 10 miles east, and you get there. You know the bar is 10 miles west and 10 miles south (no diagonals possible on this example, for simpleness sake). You kill the hive, return, and get your price. As a note, gravity allways pushes you to the grond (lets say gravity = down). Objects allways fall down, so they get to the floor and stops. This was the world of first humans (and the currently the-earth-is-flat people).

Now, let's move to a non-euclidean world. And let's call it Mars, just to not mess with earth-flat people. Your character, now a Marsial Adept (ToB) starts it's jorney on a bar. Picture this bar as being on Canada. Everybody loves Canada. Then, you get the mission of the hive dungeon, so you walk 10 miles north (near north pole, where Mars circumference is 10 miles total), draw a smiley face on the snow, then walk 5 miles east. Now, you are on the opposite side of the world (your trip made you walk thru many hour-lines) and at the door of the alien dungeon. After defeating the hive, you travel 5 miles east (yes, east) and arrive to the smiley face: you just walked around the planet!, so you walk 10 miles south and get to the bar. Gotta pick that price! Gravity here pusshed you always to the center of Mars. You percieve it as pushing you to the ground (a.k.a. down), but actually the directions of falling objects converge at the center of the planet. You know that you walked just as the eculideant, and tried to draw a 2d-map. It's impossible*, so you just give up. Also, you can't draw, 'cause you're an ant.

Poeple now can think about 3d shapes (Euclidean earth?), but they know that 2d-maps allways distorts the representation of things. Poeple on a 2d world (normal ant) think with 2d-coded brains, and can't understand 3d world easily.
* It IS possible to draw a map. But it won't be precise. Actually, it would be Reeeeeally mess up. This is the reason I advice you against using a tesseract; it's not easy to think on a 4d-logic. And drawing it will be hell! Possible, but hell.



Build 10 rooms and a random encounter table. Every time the players enter a room, roll to see what room they enter. Denote one of these rooms as the entrance and one as the exit and whenever they enter the room, that indicates that they got flipped around.

A non-euclidean world is not a random world. That's not how it works. It has it's own non-random logic, and we can actually study and dungeoneer it.
Have fun!

English is not my native language, so please excuse me if I made any silly mistake.

[Bohandas]

1.) Angular deficit/conic defect : Cut a quadrant out of the paper you're gonna draw the map on and treat the exposed edges of the remaining quadrants as connedted

Ok here's a couple links to articles with sections that explain this better (for whatever reason I couldn't find any articles that were just about this)

https://web.stanford.edu/~oas/SI/SRGR/notes/SRGRLect8_2012.pdf (look on page 4)

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/8011/angular-deficit

[Bohandas]

If you're using a hex grid...

Speaking of which, in a non-euclidean dungeons you have a choice of hex grids besides the standard one. Like you could use this one:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Uniform_tiling_64-t0.png/240px-Uniform_tiling_64-t0.png
or this
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Uniform_tiling_65-t0.png/240px-Uniform_tiling_65-t0.png
or this
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Uniform_tiling_66-t2.png/242px-Uniform_tiling_66-t2.png

Same with square grids. You can substitute the standard quadrille with this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Uniform_tiling_45-t0.png/241px-Uniform_tiling_45-t0.png
or this:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Uniform_tiling_46-t0.png/240px-Uniform_tiling_46-t0.png
or this
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Uniform_tiling_47-t0.png/241px-Uniform_tiling_47-t0.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_tilings_in_hyperbolic_plane#Regular_hyperb olic_tilings

[GreyBlack]

Thank you, kind sir. I may be able to explain a little further the idea of a non-euclidean dungeon.

A non-euclidean world is not a random world. That's not how it works. It has it's own non-random logic, and we can actually study and dungeoneer it.
Have fun!

English is not my native language, so please excuse me if I made any silly mistake.

No worries, I may have explained it poorly. My concept here was the idea that everything folded in upon itself, causing this disorienting feeling. You would have to record how everything folded in upon itself, and then every time they explored back through they would have to go back through the same rooms.

[smcmike]

The key is to have some sort of logic. I like the dice idea for a geometrical non-Euclidean Dungeon for both simplicity and theme reasons, but the logic needn’t be geometrical. It could be alphabetical, for instance, with lettered doors that spell out the destination as you choose them.

[Great cthulhu]

Well, considering I live on a non ecludian island...

Now it's a little pricey but If you warp a magnetic d&d map, then give characters thin magnets to put of their characters, then coat physical blocks with cut up d&d tiles, and then print step-by step instructions on how to put them all together...

There's your non-ecludian dungeon (physical edition)

[Great cthulhu]

As for in-game rules...

Constantly provide intelligence(memory) and wisdom (perception) rolls to not be totally confused by the geometry, in addition, make the players have to make dexterity checks whenever 'changing position'
Compasses the players have should immediately break upon entering the dungeon,

Players have diadvantages attacking monsters on other planes of the dungeon, but they should eventually be able to train for this sort of thing after a long rest.

[Bohandas]

Look up the game Hyperrogue

[bc56]

If you want to use the geometry, all you have to do is make a grid that assumes the dungeon is either so elliptic that the rooms have three 90 degree corners, or so hyperbolic that they have 5. (That'd be really tough to draw out a map though)

Here's a good essay on non-euclidian architecture (https://strolen.com/viewing/Non-Euclidean_Architecture_Part_1)

[JellyPooga]

Watch the film Labyrinth (featuring David Bowie). That's a non-euclidean dungeon run properly. Perspective might be off every now and then, "rooms" connect in unexpected or non-sensical ways, the way forward is often the way back, the "wrong" choice can still lead forward ("she chose down?")...all that matters is that the adventure progresses.

[Armored Walrus]

I'm thinking about the home of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn from Wheel of Time.

And The Ways from the same series. Although OP really only needs to read one passage out of the many times the characters visit these places, and Robert Jordan seemed to also struggle to find ways to describe the experience. Each passage reads almost exactly the same.

This (https://djekspek.deviantart.com/art/Rotating-Madness-156644839) isn't precisely what you're looking for, OP, but might help convey the same kind of feel. Especially if there is no indication that the rotation is happening. I thought i had found anothere dungeon map at one time that was Escher-esque, but can't seem to find it now.

[Beelzebubba]

I like doing stuff that makes it impossible for the players to map out in a standard way, but will still logically 'come together' so they can't get lost and can map it if they have a little creativity.

Stuff like spaces that when mapped in 2d obviously overlap in space (like a room that curves around behind the entry hallway) but still work fine to walk through and explore.

If you do funky stuff like 'wrap around' spaces that create infinite loops, or have doors that lead to different places depending on which way they're opened, make them simple and be prepared to ditch them if necessary. I've tried to do funky stuff like that that just made the game a huge drag.

But, overall - a little goes a really long way. That stuff is about creating a feeling, mostly.

[Armored Walrus]

Just a suggestion, but maybe don't actually map it?

If you make this a narrative dungeon with no actual physical map, then you don't have to worry about how everything connects or how it all fits together. All you need to know is that the players can enter at encounter A, D, or G, for example, and from encounter A they can go to encounter B or H, and from D, they can go to E, F, or Q, or whatever.

Then you handle the transition between the encounters narratively, rather than walking them through the specific number of 5 foot squares they've walked over. This lets you do the "you look out a window and see, across a courtyard, you, looking out a window." or, "you're standing in a room that, to your senses, is a 10 by 10 foot room. About 300 feet ahead of you one of the beings is leaning against the nearest wall." without having to try to actually figure out how that works on paper.

Edit: If you're playing an old school game where someone in the group is holding a pen and a pad of grid paper, you'll frustrate your player, but if you don't have anyone physically trying to draw a map as you go along, I think this will work well.

[Bohandas]

Hyperrogue (http://www.roguetemple.com/z/hyper/) has a temple of Cthulhu with areas arranged in concentric horocycles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horocycle)

http://www.roguetemple.com/z/hyper/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/342610/HyperRogue/

[Malifice]

Not quite what you're after, but teleporters are fun.

Check out Lost Island of Castanamir for a good example.

[Eric Diaz]

Okay, just sketched a few ideas.

Assuming things should be more or less PREDICTABLE so the PCs can navigate, I think the easier way is use "portal-like" devices that open into unexpected rooms / unexpected ways.

For example:

http://i67.tinypic.com/330xueq.jpg

The squares are rooms, but the lines are not corridos, but DOORS. Every room shares a wall with the adjacent rooms.

The blue line is a door that opens into different rooms; maybe depending on how you turn the handle.

The Z shape does exactly the same for nearby rooms.

The red line is a door that goes into a distant place.

The green asterisk is a staircase that descents into a different room... in the same floor.

Simple stuff, but easy to grasp.

EDIT: now the fun part.

Think of things the PCs or their enemies can do to each other. Run away from room k to room L... and then backstab your enemies from room I!

This is only possible for the PCs if the dungeon denizens are somewhat irrational, otherwise they'd certainly know the terrain better than the PCs.

[Eric Diaz]

Another easy concept. Same reasoning. Should be self-evident.

I think it is useful if you make it small, again, so players can grasp it.


http://i63.tinypic.com/2m319b6.png

[Bohandas]

Okay, just sketched a few ideas.

Assuming things should be more or less PREDICTABLE so the PCs can navigate, I think the easier way is use "portal-like" devices that open into unexpected rooms / unexpected ways.

For example:

http://i67.tinypic.com/330xueq.jpg

The squares are rooms, but the lines are not corridos, but DOORS. Every room shares a wall with the adjacent rooms.

The blue line is a door that opens into different rooms; maybe depending on how you turn the handle.

The Z shape does exactly the same for nearby rooms.

The red line is a door that goes into a distant place.

The green asterisk is a staircase that descents into a different room... in the same floor.

Simple stuff, but easy to grasp.

Simple concept unnecessarily complicated execution. Connect the blue line to the top of A and the bottom of H and the diagonal line to the bootm of G and the top of J and have each individual door only go one place

[Eric Diaz]

Simple concept unnecessarily complicated execution. Connect the blue line to the top of A and the bottom of H and the diagonal line to the bootm of G and the top of J and have each individual door only go one place

The red line does exactly that... this "double door" thing is just a gimmick from movies such as Labyrinth, Cube, etc.

[TheYell]

How about a linear dungeon that only lines up for a mind with the right knowledge.

Like, the connections between rooms are jumbled and you have to defeat outsiders in the dungeon to learn their true names, and each time you learn a true name, a room connection is opened.

So the boss of the dungeon, knowing the names "Shadrach Meshach Abednego" can move from first level to second without thinking about it, but for ignorant beings, its a labyrinth.

[johnbragg]

Taking the idea from above of the surfaces of the Pythagorean solids (dice)

EAch level of the dungeon is a pythagorean solid.

Entering the first level of the pyramid is the trick.
The first level is a pyramid, 4 triangular rooms all adjacent to each other.
Second level is a cube, 6 square rooms, four adjacent to the entrance, opposite.
Third level is an octahedron, 8 triangular rooms.
Fourth level is a dodecahedron, 12 pentagon shaped rooms.
Fifth level is an icosahedron (d20), 20 triangular rooms.

Or flip the dungeon, with the d20 as the first level.
Maybe you need to "clear" one level to unlock the next, maybe not.
If the DM is numbering the rooms, have portals from the d20 to the d12 at 12, the d12 to the d8 at 8, d8 to d6 at 6, d6 to d4 at 4.

Oooh. Make the icosahedron (d20) the first level. Clear the entire level (push a button in each room or whatever) to access the next level. Clearing the d4 allows you to access the spherical room where the MacGuffin is.

EDIT: And, with 20 chambers in the first level, no reason that there can't be multiple entrances in completely different locations.

EDIT 2: Oooh ooh, themes. Each face doesn't have to be a single room--it can be a room complex.
So d4 level could be Earth, Air, Fire, Water. d8 level keys to the 8 schools of magic. d12 to the Zodiac signs (might be underwhelming). d6, d20 I don't have much.

[johnbragg]

So, if you want to create your own easy-made non-euclidean dungeon, grab a dice (It can be a d4, d6, d8... whatever) and imagine it sides are chambers.

Let's pick, for example, a d6 and make a dungeon from it. For whatever reason*, you are on a typical room: four walls, a ceiling and a floor. They are all flat (90 degrees corners). There is a door on every wall, one on the ceiling and one on the floor,

Not on the ceiling and floor. The dungeon wraps around the outside of the cube, so if you follow the right-hand rule you go say 1-3-6-4-1. Up and down take you out of the plane of the cube-face. (You might have to do stuff to be able to go up and down.)

[Bohandas]

For some reason, MC Escher springs to mind..
Not a clue why, he just does.

I'm pretty sure some of the Circle Limit paintings are poincaire disks. And Snakes shares properties with an Einstein-Rosen bridge

[Bohandas]

Hyperrogue is free on Android. Play the tutorial; it explains a lot about hyperbolic geometry (although some of the special graphics modes used by the tutorial may not work on mobile)

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.roguetemple.hyperroid