Barbarian MC to Fighter: Champion or BM? (RESOLVED)

[Mister_Squinty]

***After a lot of useful advice and some consultation of some older threads on the board, it appears that BM is indeed the better option for this character. The ability to nudge a miss into a hit for the +10 with Precision Attack seems more useful than the + to crit chance. With the other fun bits of flavor BM gives, it's the better choice this time. My thanks for the thoughtful advices***

My Mtn Dwarf Barb just graduated 5th Level to 6th and it appears to be time for a career change.

ST: 18
DX: 14
CN: 18
IN: 8
WS: 10
CH: 8

He was originally serving as the group's tank/melee, so he went with Unarmored Defense and carried a shield for AC 18. However, thanks to the Tomb of Tamoachan, he has recently inherited a pair of bracers of defense, giving him the option to ditch the shield and go 2 handed. We've also gained a Moon Druid who likes to tank, freeing up the option to be more offensive as well.

The original "tank" plan was to go Fighter for Duellist and BM. With these new circumstances, however, is it as good/better an idea to go full critfisher with GWF/GWM and Champion? I know without advantage, BM beats Champion, but with Reckless Attack's on demand advantage, do the balances swing the other way? I have not yet been able to find the math, beyond that a Champion with Advantage crits almost 4x as often as a straight hit.

[N810]

This is actually a fairly common multiclass for barbarian,
if you want maximum crits take go for berserker and great axe.

[Mister_Squinty]

This is actually a fairly common multiclass for barbarian,
if you want maximum crits take go for berserker and great axe.

He was already down the BarBearian route with being the tank, and I really enjoy watching him shrug off deadly hits with a bloody smile. I'm mostly curious as to whether anyone had run the numbers for critfishing Champion vs versatile BM with Reckless.

Much appreciated.

[Potato_Priest]

I don't have the numbers (and they may well go against my personal choice) but I know that I would pick battlemaster.

Why?

The champion's attacks may crit more often and deal devastating blows, but the battlemaster's attacks have flavor. Imagine your character hitting people with their axe/maul/whatever to knock them to their knees or send them flying across the room. It's just badass.

[Mister_Squinty]

The champion's attacks may crit more often and deal devastating blows, but the battlemaster's attacks have flavor. Imagine your character hitting people with their axe/maul/whatever to knock them to their knees or send them flying across the room. It's just badass.

Agreed, thematically, BM are fun. Plus they get one of the few taunt abilities available.

Another factor I just considered. Going Champion doesn't give much beyond the 4th level ASI, so a swap back to Barb for (eventual) Brutal Critical seems the more productive route for the Critfisher.

Going BM looks to be better as a permanent career change, as the Superiority Dice and Maneuvers continue to accumulate.

[Cl0001]

Agreed, thematically, BM are fun. Plus they get one of the few taunt abilities available.

Another factor I just considered. Going Champion doesn't give much beyond the 4th level ASI, so a swap back to Barb for (eventual) Brutal Critical seems the more productive route for the Critfisher.

Going BM looks to be better as a permanent career change, as the Superiority Dice and Maneuvers continue to accumulate.

I’d actually disagree, if you’re only going to go a couple levels in Fighter, battlemaster is the better choice. But at higher levels you just don’t get the same power increases as other archetypes and classes. If you’re going to put the rest of your levels into Fighter I’d go champion just because the extended crit range synergizes well with Barbarians bonuses to crit damage.

[Potato_Priest]

I’d actually disagree, if you’re only going to go a couple levels in Fighter, battlemaster is the better choice. But at higher levels you just don’t get the same power increases as other archetypes and classes. If you’re going to put the rest of your levels into Fighter I’d go champion just because the extended crit range synergizes well with Barbarians bonuses to crit damage.

If he's going the rest of his career in fighter he won't get barbarian bonuses to crit damage.

[Mikal]

If you're looking for damage battlemaster is better simple for precision attack allowing you to almost never miss with GWM power attack- especially when combined with reckless attack.


You'll crit more often as a champion but battlemaster gives you more consistency

[bid]

I'm mostly curious as to whether anyone had run the numbers for critfishing Champion vs versatile BM with Reckless.
Critfishing doesn't work before barbarian 9 / champion 3. You need barbarian 13 to make it good.
BM 3 is perfect if you go GWM, and the fighter chassis is good enough after.
I assume barb 7 / fighter 13 is the local optimum, but you double on extra attack.


You could go barbarogue, that's another great combo.

[beargryllz]

If I were a barbarian, I would probably find better optimization with the champion

Crit fishing with ~permanent advantage in melee, champion feature, barbarian crit dice, and probably great weapon master is my best bet

[Mister_Squinty]

If I were a barbarian, I would probably find better optimization with the champion

Crit fishing with ~permanent advantage in melee, champion feature, barbarian crit dice, and probably great weapon master is my best bet

Yep. It seems crazy good. Which is why I was wondering if anyone had done the math, or knew the best way to do the math, to compare Barb/Champion to Barb/BM.

Judging by the opinions offered so far, there doesn't appear to be a "wrong" answer, which is nice. I know that Champion, standalone, isn't considered as flexible or effective as BM. I'm not sure, however, how much the Reckless Attack synergy with the Improved Critical evened the field.