5e to 3.5 for IRL game, Character help please?

[FrozenGnomes]

I'm playing IRL for the first time ever, and my friends want to play 3.5 since they don't like 5E, citing lack of complexity and options (too many options, IMO, but hey). So I've got to make a character for this edition, and it feels like going from high school directly into a doctorate course. There's just so much...stuff!

I know that we're starting at level one, so no level adjustment. I know that I want to play a character like a rogue, but not as basic as a rogue. I love to be good at sneaking, hard to be seen, and competent at combat, the more disruptive and hard to hit the better. Psionics are highly discouraged but not out, and I would prefer a character that isn't openly busted, especially since the DM said he would make our lives hard if it was.

I have no idea what the stat generation is, but I imagine its being rolled.

[Mike Miller]

What sources are allowed? Are things other than psionics actively frowned upon?

[FrozenGnomes]

What sources are allowed? Are things other than psionics actively frowned upon?

As far as I know, most* things are allowed, and things that are frowned upon are just things that make a character really broken.






* I have no idea what wouldn't be allowed in terms of being overpowered

[Mike Miller]

I'm away from my books at the moment but these come to mind: factotum, scout, spellthief. I would give a more detailed answer but I am also on my phone

[Hamste]

If you want something sneaky but a bit more complex than rogue, how about spellthief or beguiler? Beguiler has problems late game but you are starting at level one and seem to have a low OP group so you should be fine with out spell list optimization that is usually needed for late game beguiler. Spellthief gives more options but isn't really that much stronger than rogue.

I personally suggest Beguiler unless you think you will face a lot of enchantment immune enemies and that your DM would not allow spell list optimization if you do think you will face a lot of enchantment immune enemies.

[FrozenGnomes]

If you want something sneaky but a bit more complex than rogue, how about spellthief or beguiler? Beguiler has problems late game but you are starting at level one and seem to have a low OP group so you should be fine with out spell list optimization that is usually needed for late game beguiler. Spellthief gives more options but isn't really that much stronger than rogue.

I personally suggest Beguiler unless you think you will face a lot of enchantment immune enemies and that your DM would not allow spell list optimization if you do think you will face a lot of enchantment immune enemies.

Which book is the beguiler in? I think I had a look at spellthief but it looks really hard to build well due to all the stats it needs.

[Mike Miller]

Player's handbook 2 for beguiler. It is a good class

[Captn_Flounder]

Beguiler, in Player's Handbook 2, is my favorite "Rogue." Its more of a "sneaky illusionist" but it can do all the necessary Rogue tricks, such as trap finding, face, sneak, skill monkey. And Magic is the key to keeping your character relevant in 3.5. You don't get sneak attack though

But it's impossible to help you build a character at the proper optimization level without knowing what that level is. And just know that 3.5 is wildly unbalanced, and some things that sound basic are actually really highly optimized, like Human Wizard/Cleric/Druid with no other classes thrown in are some of the strongest characters in the game as long as you don't purposely constrain yourself (i.e. evocation specialized wizard)

Can you text a friend or two in the game and see what class/race/templates they plan on using? Normally my irl group makes our characters together to ensure we are relatively the same power level and cover all our bases. Last time we made them separately for a "high powered" campaign we ended up with 3 Druids, and me the Wizard.

Ninja'd on the Beguiler, but just goes to show its the "fan favorite" Rogue-like ;)

[Nifft]

I know that we're starting at level one, so no level adjustment. I know that I want to play a character like a rogue, but not as basic as a rogue. I love to be good at sneaking, hard to be seen, and competent at combat, the more disruptive and hard to hit the better. Psionics are highly discouraged but not out, and I would prefer a character that isn't openly busted, especially since the DM said he would make our lives hard if it was.

Swordsage (Tome of Battle) can be very sneaky, and is more combat-oriented than a Rogue.

Level 1 build might go like (Dex = Wis > Con = Int > Str >> Cha)
* Feat: Adaptive Style
* Bonus feat (flaw / human / etc.): Shadow Blade
+ Discipline Focus (shadow hand weapons): Dagger, Sai, Siangham, Short Sword, Spiked Chain, Unarmed Strike
- Stance: Island of Blades (shadow hand)
- Maneuvers: Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Burning Blade, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Shadow Blade Technique

Good sustained damage and some mobility.

Level 2 gets you Wisdom to AC in light armor (= more survivability), and another Stance.

Level 3 gets you either 50 ft. teleport or Invisibility for 1 round. If your Dex is very high and your Str is not that high, this is a good place to take Weapon Finesse.

[Mike Miller]

In the event that you want a more detailed read of the Beguiler, look at this handbook (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php?topic=727.0).


Swordsage (Tome of Battle) can be very sneaky, and is more combat-oriented than a Rogue.

Level 1 build might go like (Dex = Wis > Con = Int > Str >> Cha)
* Feat: Adaptive Style
* Bonus feat (flaw / human / etc.): Shadow Blade
+ Discipline Focus (shadow hand weapons): Dagger, Sai, Siangham, Short Sword, Spiked Chain, Unarmed Strike
- Stance: Island of Blades (shadow hand)
- Maneuvers: Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Burning Blade, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Shadow Blade Technique

Good sustained damage and some mobility.

Level 2 gets you Wisdom to AC in light armor (= more survivability), and another Stance.

Level 3 gets you either 50 ft. teleport or Invisibility for 1 round. If your Dex is very high and your Str is not that high, this is a good place to take Weapon Finesse.

I definitely second swordsage. I can't believe I didn't even think of that. I've made a sneaky swordsage before! It is probably my favorite of the three ToB classes, even if it is arguably the "weakest."

[ATHATH]

citing lack of complexity and options (too many options, IMO, but hey)
Wait, you thought that 5th edition had too many options?

You're in for a rough ride, mate.

[FrozenGnomes]

Can you text a friend or two in the game and see what class/race/templates they plan on using?

I know that we're having a caster, a tanky character a sneaky guy (me) and a healer. Specifically what, I don't really know. the healer guy is probably going to be a basic cleric, the caster guy wont make up his mind until character creation on the day (this saturday), but he's been mentioning wild mage

[Captn_Flounder]

Wild Mage is a Prestige Class, so probably (read: hopefully) will end up starting Sorcerer.

As long as you trust the Caster/Cleric to not step on your toes and let you do you (since magic does everything, and does it better, than every other class as long as they get 8 hours notice) it should be fine. Especially if he goes Sorceror over Wizard since he will have less room on his spell list for them utility spells.

Also, with smaller parties like yours it's easier to share the glory around the group.

[FrozenGnomes]

Wait, you thought that 5th edition had too many options?

You're in for a rough ride, mate.

No, he thinks 5E doesn't have enough, and I think 3.5 has too many in comparison. I worded that poorly.

Thanks for the options guys, I think I'll choose between the Swordsage or Beguiler depending on the stats I get :)

[Madara]

I know that we're having a caster, a tanky character a sneaky guy (me) and a healer. Specifically what, I don't really know. the healer guy is probably going to be a basic cleric, the caster guy wont make up his mind until character creation on the day (this saturday), but he's been mentioning wild mage

If they said that they're playing a "healer," we probably need to tone it down from swordsage a bit.

If the caster does Truenamer we could have truenamer, fighter, monk, and healer. It'd be a "balanced" party.

In all seriousness, You could either do an optimized rogue or a plain beguiler. Are you comfortable doing spellcasting?

[FrozenGnomes]

If they said that they're playing a "healer," we probably need to tone it down from swordsage a bit.

If the caster does Truenamer we could have truenamer, fighter, monk, and healer. It'd be a "balanced" party.

In all seriousness, You could either do an optimized rogue or a plain beguiler. Are you comfortable doing spellcasting?

Why tone it down from swordsage? I don't really understand what you mean. As for spellcasting, as long as it's explained well enough, I should be comfortable with it. The first session is a session zero to help us learn I think.

[Mike Miller]

Madara was joking. If you were more familiar with 3.5, its classes, and the tiers, you would have understood. Also, the blue generally means sarcasm on these boards.

[bahamut920]

Madara is assuming that your player who declared he was playing a healer was directly naming his class. There is a Healer class in 3.5, from the Miniatures Handbook, and it is considered one of the weakest full casters due to its focus on a suboptimal role (in-combat healing). The group he mentioned in blue text is just about the lowest optimization you can get in 3.5. Swap the fighter out for a swashbuckler or samurai and you're probably there.

Swordsage should be fine, although you may end up stepping on the "tanky character's" toes if he ends up playing something like a sword-and-board fighter or samurai. Beguilers are probably a little bit more powerful than swordsage due to spellcasting, but suffer heavily in fights against several creature types (most notably undead and constructs, but also vermin, oozes, and plants) because of their heavily enchantment- and illusion-focused spell list.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I know that we're starting at level one, so no level adjustment. I know that I want to play a character like a rogue, but not as basic as a rogue. I love to be good at sneaking, hard to be seen, and competent at combat, the more disruptive and hard to hit the better. Psionics are highly discouraged but not out, and I would prefer a character that isn't openly busted, especially since the DM said he would make our lives hard if it was.
"Like a rogue, but more complex" says to me:

Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b): Probably the closest to the 5e Arcane Trickster you'll get in a base class. Trades a little bit of sneak attack damage for a bit of spellcasting ("manifesting") off a pretty good list. An excellent choice for a tricky-guy-with-a-bit-of-magic. Highly recommended if not for the fact that your group doesn't like psionics.
Lurk (Complete Psionic): Like the Psychic Rogue but worse, basically. They get partial casting/manifesting off a solid list, weak sneak attack, and a couple limited-use options to boost their attacks power. Not recommended.
Factotum (Dungeonscape): A jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none type character. Some excellent skill use type abilities, and wonky, late-blooming spellcasting, but for much of your career you'll be left scrambing for an effective way to hit people. Not recommended.
Swordsage (Tome of Battle): A wuxia warrior type, with semi-to-totally magical martial arts moves that work kinda like per-encounter spellcasting, if a lot of the spells take the form of "make a melee attack that also does X." They can pick up some great shadow magic/sneaky type maneuvers at fairly low levels, including bursts of invisibility and teleporting through shadows. (Think Four Elements Monk, maybe, but with weapons and non-sucky magic). Great sneaking, but no trap-type stuff unless you multiclass. Highly recommended, but some people find the Tome of Battle overpowered. (Because the other two classes in particular can kick the ass of basic Fighter-types if people aren't optimizing).
Beguiler (Player's Handbook 2): ...maybe. You're not a Rogue, not really. You're a full spellcaster with Rogue skills. Their casting focuses on illusions and enchantments, and is either highly effective or extremely ineffective, depending on what type of enemies you're facing. (Anything with high Will saves will be a problem, and lots of things are immune to illusions, enchantments or both). Recommended if you want to be a sneaky-caster.
Spellthif (Complete Adventuerer): You get decent skills, a bit of Sneak Attack, and the ability to steal spells. You can get 'em off enemies, but a lot of the time your best bet is to borrow a spell from a friendly mage to basically double their output. They get a little bit of casting eventually. Decent, but not recommended overall.
Incarnate/Totemist (Magic of Incarnum): Somewhat oddball classes from a somewhat oddball book, their fluff is weird but they're... basically making a bunch of temporary magic items each morning, each partially powered; they get a pool of points they can shuffle around round-to-round to augment them. The practical upshot is that every morning they can pick a bunch of skills to be good at and/or cool defenses or special attacks. The Incarnate gets a wider range of stuff, but less offensive power; the Totemist has a narrower focus on stealth, senses, and natural weapons, but is phenomenal at those things. Combining the two makes for a really strong, really versatile character who can drastically change their focus day-to-day. Highly recommended if you don't mind a little complexity; not really recommended if you do.
Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster type multiclass (Complete Mage/Dungeon Master's Guide): There are prestige classes out there that progress both spellcasting and Rogue-type stuff (Sneak Attack and skills). You can build into them pretty easily, leaning more heavily on one or the other. Possible more complex and late-blooming than others.
Bards. You can make a Bard who's scary-good at skills and sneaking, and who can make themselves and the rest of the group scary-good at fighting.


I'd say, for you, Swordsage is probably your best bet, followed by Psychic Rogue and (maybe) Totemist.

[FrozenGnomes]

I'd say, for you, Swordsage is probably your best bet, followed by Psychic Rogue and (maybe) Totemist.

Sweet, thanks :)