Locks

[Riffington]

Why are lock DC's often so difficult?
I mean, locks in 2007 are usually pretty easy for anyone with a basic knowledge of lockpicking. This includes MasterLocks, Subaru Locks, etc.
Even locks on nuclear facilities, as Feynman discovered.
In other words, a good modern lock is maybe DC 15.
Basically, locks help keep honest men honest.

And modern rely on high technology to be hard to pick - standardization of parts, and very fine tolerances. Now, granted, we have some difficult locks that are very expensive in 2007. But these locks require more technology than an AK-47.
Now, what's the incentive to handcraft a high DC lock in D&D unless it's for a King or something? It would take years of labor to do so by an expert medieval craftsman. And then, the most well-designed lock can be circumvented by a simple spell.

So, yeah, why aren't D&D locks DC 10?
Or DC 10 to open, DC 20 to find? (hiding locks is much easier than crafting good locks)

[OzymandiasVolt]

...so rogues have something useful to do with the Open Lock skill past rank 6?

[horseboy]

That kind of reminds me of that episode of Mythbusters where they found out that the cheap laptop fingerprint scanner is harder to fool than the top of the line door mounted models.

Some of the reason is because they're old and rusty I'm sure. Harder to finesse something that's rusted in place I guess.

[daggaz]

Erm.... cuz DnD isn't RealLife?? Cuz there is magic, and gnomish tinkers, etc..etc..?

Not to mention... Feynman discovered that old school locks waaaay back in the forties, in the Los Alamos labs (before they became full on nuclear institutions) were easy to pick. He clearly mentions in his autobiography that locks quickly became very complex and nearly impossible to pick without factory tools made to exact speficitations for that specific purpose.

I mean seriously,... when is the last time you have seen anybody successfully handpick a run-of-the-mill master lock? And I mean without a gun or a boltcutter. Now toss on the added finesse of a high quality home or business door lock.

Now, I can pick handcuffs, given a sturdy piece of wire. And I can do antique locks with ease. I even figured out how to beat the crappy highschool combination locks everyone has on their lockers (the built in kind, not the free hanging ones, those are a bit tougher.)

I think the lock DC's start out pretty realistically. And in the interest of cat-girls, game mechanics, and challenging fun, Im glad that the DC's can go way thru the roof.

[Zincorium]

Well, I think the most important part is that the lock DCs were designed to still represent a challenge even at higher levels. This isn't necessarily a good idea, but the system isn't actually broken.

Realize that you can take 20 on open lock checks. A 1st level character with no ranks in open lock, and just a basic set of tools, can open a simple lock in 2 minutes. That sounds pretty darn easy to me. A 5th level thief, with a 14 dex and regular tools can open the best lock you can expect to find normally without a sweat.

It's the time factor involved that really makes a difference; how many people do you know who can pick a well made lock in 6 seconds? That's how long it is to make a check. If they can do it in that very short amount of time, they're obviously highly skilled, have excellent dexterity, are probably using modern well designed tools, and might be extremely focused on it. And it still might take them two or three tries to get a feel for it.

Amazing locks, in my mind, are just that. They're lock designs that don't exist in the real world because they require too much time or money to construct, or maybe they were created using fabricate and are technically impossible to create any other way. Normal people shouldn't even be able to touch these. It requires a character who's above the competency of any living human to open, and 5th level is about as good as any real world character is (there are some articles on the subject floating around, wish I had a link for you).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Erm.... cuz DnD isn't RealLife?? Cuz there is magic, and gnomish tinkers, etc..etc..?
Exactly! The gnomes perfected it, and now the knowledge has been passed on to the other races! :smallbiggrin:


I think the lock DC's start out pretty realistically. And in the interest of cat-girls, game mechanics, and challenging fun, Im glad that the DC's can go way thru the roof.
I don't quite see where the physics come in.

Remember, catgirls are only in danger when discussing real-life physics. No problem with any other real-life comparisons at all.

I also appreciate the open ended nature of tasks in 3e. :smallsmile:


Realize that you can take 20 on open lock checks. A 1st level character with no ranks in open lock, and just a basic set of tools, can open a simple lock in 2 minutes.
Open Lock is a trained only skill. Need at least one rank.

[goat]

Well, one of the reasons that modern locks are relatively easy to get through (look up bump keys if you doubt that) is standardisation. D&D locks cost 20GP for a very simple one, and for a normal commoner, that's a lot of cash. They can't just pop down the shops for a padlock that costs half an hours wages. The DMG describes common labourers as earning 3GP a month.

We can therefore assume that every single lock is unique. They might be similar mechanisms, but in different sizes, with small modifications to a basic design. Standardised lockpick techniques will be much less effective, and each lock might need to be approached in it's own special way. By the time you're getting up to Superior (DC40) locks, you might be talking about multi-key systems that need to be operated in specific orders.

[tannish2]

....... why do so many people on these forums know so much about locks

[Fax Celestis]

....... why do so many people on these forums know so much about locks

They don't. What you're witnessing is a very large pool of knowledge. Note how about four people actually know things about locks, when this forum has at least 10,000 users. That's a very small percentage, considering the sample base, but it's reasonable.

In general, the rule is: "the more people you group together, the more likely it becomes that at least one member knows about any given topic."

[goat]

....... why do so many people on these forums know so much about locks

It does also help that by its nature, this forum is likely to have a population with a higher than average "geek" population. That in itself is going to lead to a higher than average population who've ever sat down one day and just decided to look up locks, how they work, and how to pick them.

[Randel]

Actually, I have a question about the skills Open Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/openLock.htm) and Disable Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm).

Could one conceivably just use Disable Device to do everything Open Lock can do?

the DC to jam a lock using Disable Device is 10.
The DC to disable a trap (without destroying it) and to reset a trap (without destroying it) is 20.

The DC to pick a simple lock to unlock or lock it is 20. (which is basically disabling or resetting the lock)

So, in terms of Disable Device, a simple lock is just a difficult device, an average lock is wicked, and Good locks would be Insanely difficult and Amazing locks would be "What kind of maniac invented this?" difficult.

So, if need be, I suppose one could houserule that a person can substitute their Disable Device skill ranks with open lock skill ranks pretty much seamlessly. But if they don't use thieves tools or aren't careful they run the risk of just jamming the lock.

Would that work?

[Burrito]

We always found it easier to either take the hinges off the door, and going around the lock all together. All that money on a fancy lock, and the hinges are still forged iron.

Handcuffs can be picked, but since there are about 12-20 brands of handcuffs out there, it is easier just to buy a bunch of cuff keys and hide them on your person, rather than look for a small piece of wire. It is actually usually easier and faster just to break/force open the handcuffs rather than pick them (depending on the brand).

I always required my thieves to have a whole lock picking kit, a simpleThieves Pick, or one or two items wasn't going to cut it. Jail/Prison/Dungeon doors have large heavy duty locks, usually with lots of teeth. You would need a correspondingly robust set of tools to get one open. You can poke at it with a wire all you want, it isn't going to have the strength to move the tumblers. it will just bend.

[TheOOB]

Lock DCs are high because a)you can almost always take 20, and b)so not just anyone with a good dex can put one rank in open locks and be able to bypass all the locks in the game.