[concept] 5ft step... of opportunity

[Pleh]

We can explore this as a houserule/homebrew or just a system design idea. Maybe other people have had similar ideas before and I just didn't know where to look.

I was reading 3.5 rules (I imagine PF is similar enough the concept could apply, or already be applied, in that system as well) about the Overrun attack option. It mentions that generally a defender has the option to simply avoid an overrun attack to get out of your way (unless you have Improved Overrun, but that's beside the point). It doesn't mention if they have to actually MOVE to another square in order to do so (kind of similar to the Evasion of Fireball scenario all over again), just that they can *sometimes* choose to simply step out of the way.

It makes cognitive sense, but it put a different and related idea into my head. What if players had the option to use one of their Attack of Opportunity "slots" for a 5ft step rather than an attack? For example, if the Dodge feat provided this benefit that you could expend your normal pool of AoO uses to interrupt an enemy attack with a 5ft step specifically to negate their attack against you by moving into another square? Take it a step further: an Improved Combat Reflexes feat that lets you 5ft Step of Opportunity to negate an enemy's Attack of Opportunity.

And maybe Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge can incorporate some of these advantages as well. Or maybe Uncanny Dodge just means you can use these 5ft Step of Opportunity slots even when you were unaware of the attack.

I like to think it should also be limited by what other actions you've already taken, such as a rule that would say, "it only works if you still have 5ft of unused movement remaining." So if you did the standard tactical choice of "move action to get into position, then standard action to attack" you could only do this 5ft step of opportunity if your movement was at least 1 square short of your normal move speed. If you only moved, then readied a standard action, you could sacrifice your readied standard action to instead dodge out of an attack targeted at you and take a 5ft step (maybe that's already a thing you can legally do, come to think of it, so maybe a bad example).

Or maybe the 5ft Step of Opportunity is a general thing anyone can do at any time, like an AoO (assuming they have movement and AoO slots still available that round) and the Dodge feat allows you to make a 5ft step of opportunity even when you've normally run out of remaining movement (still have to take Combat Reflexes to increase your cap on AoO slots).

I dunno. Seems really cool and fun to me. What do you guys think?

EDIT: So it doesn't feel like we're just shifting Mundane Martial numbers around, it probably would allow evading certain spells, like AoE spells, rays, touch, ranged rouch, etc.

[Crake]

I'm pretty sure there's already a feat for that, AFB right now, but I think its called deft dodge or something

[Pleh]

I'm pretty sure there's already a feat for that, AFB right now, but I think its called deft dodge or something

I look forward to what you come up with (unless someone else gets there first). My google fu on "deft dodge" is turning up a PF feat that gives +1 trait bonus to reflex, a D&Dwiki homebrew feat, and a PF Deft Dodger Deed (Grit) thing that has a broken link.

For some reason, this just feels so intuitively natural that I feel like it'd be fun for this to be an, "everyone gets this" feat (which means it isn't a feat, just a general combat option). It'd be nice to see the crunch on it if there really is a feat out there for it.

[Nifft]

What if players had the option to use one of their Attack of Opportunity "slots" for a 5ft step rather than an attack?

Evasive Reflexes (Tome of Battle) -- the option exists, you're just supposed to pay for it.

It's probably not broken to give it away for free, though watch out for very high-Dex polearm users with Combat Reflexes who exceed their Run speed while walking backwards, 5 ft. at a time.

[Eldariel]

There's also Sidestep in Miniatures Handbook that allows you to take AoO and then 5' step as an AoO without counting against your normal limits. But yeah, Evasive Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit is a really solid way to avoid most melee enemy attacks.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm not seeing anything in Evasive Reflexes that circumvents the normal limitations of taking a 5-foot step, though.

[Deophaun]

EDIT: So it doesn't feel like we're just shifting Mundane Martial numbers around, it probably would allow evading certain spells, like AoE spells, rays, touch, ranged rouch, etc.
This is kinda a big balance problem, though, isn't it? As much as it's nice to be able to hit wizards with a nerf bat, you're basically just making all rays, ranged-touch, and even some AoEs completely useless. Never take those spells because they're effortlessly negated. You might as well ban them from the game as it will have practically the same effect. And honestly, those types of spells aren't even the big hitters in the caster's arsenal, so you're forcing casters to a more optimized playstyle.

[Rynjin]

So, basically, this is a houserule designed to make sure nobody but archers and Huge+ creatures get to full attack ever again?

[ShurikVch]

Opportunistic Tactician feat (Dragon #340): after your every AoO, you get additional 5' step
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility.

[Pleh]

This is kinda a big balance problem, though, isn't it? As much as it's nice to be able to hit wizards with a nerf bat, you're basically just making all rays, ranged-touch, and even some AoEs completely useless. Never take those spells because they're effortlessly negated. You might as well ban them from the game as it will have practically the same effect. And honestly, those types of spells aren't even the big hitters in the caster's arsenal, so you're forcing casters to a more optimized playstyle.

I dunno, they still have to provoke the AoO (so I guess we might need to revisit exactly what provokes for the purposes of this ability) and even the hypothetical dodger can run out of movement or AoO available. It's really just making some things more tactical.

It means for the sorcerer to use their Glitterdust on a group of agile enemies to nuke the fight, they need someone to play battlefield control, forcing the targets to waste their movement *and* happen to end up bunched into a 10ft radius.

Seems fun, but different. Yes, it affects balance, but it's not like the game was balanced to begin with. I do appreciate your input, but I'm not seeing the problems that you are yet.


So, basically, this is a houserule designed to make sure nobody but archers and Huge+ creatures get to full attack ever again?

An interesting point, but it's fixed easy enough if it becomes a problem. We can give heavy martial focused characters (maybe anyone with full BAB) the ability to move with a single target while full attacking (again, as long as they also aren't maxing out their movement, which they shouldn't be if they were full attacking anyway, so it starts only potentially being a problem for pouncers).

[Deophaun]

It means for the sorcerer to use their Glitterdust on a group of agile enemies to nuke the fight, they need someone to play battlefield control, forcing the targets to waste their movement *and* happen to end up bunched into a 10ft radius.
So you need a player to basically do nothing each round to account for your rule. That's even worse.

[Pleh]

So you need a player to basically do nothing each round to account for your rule. That's even worse.

What do you mean? That the sorcerer is waiting? Maybe, but they could just be holding initiative, but that is an active, tactical choice and you can stop holding and take your turn whenever you want. The sorcerer could choose a different spell or pick up a sidearm and start plinking. Or they could just cast glitterdust. With a 10ft radius, if you center it on an enemy, they won't have the chance to escape, even if they try to 5ft step. It may just not get the whole group unless the party really works together.

Not sure what you mean by them "doing nothing."

[Deophaun]

What do you mean? That the sorcerer is waiting? Maybe, but they could just be holding initiative, but that is an active, tactical choice and you can stop holding and take your turn whenever you want.
I mean you need a battlefield controller before your battlefield controller can control the battlefield.

The sorcerer could choose a different spell
Yes. Covered that already in my first post.

or pick up a sidearm and start plinking.
Because that's what people that play a caster love doing: shooting into melee with a crossbow. Presumably while yelling "I'm helping!"

[EldritchWeaver]

What do you mean? That the sorcerer is waiting? Maybe, but they could just be holding initiative, but that is an active, tactical choice and you can stop holding and take your turn whenever you want. The sorcerer could choose a different spell or pick up a sidearm and start plinking. Or they could just cast glitterdust. With a 10ft radius, if you center it on an enemy, they won't have the chance to escape, even if they try to 5ft step. It may just not get the whole group unless the party really works together.

Not sure what you mean by them "doing nothing."

He means that there is a second player whose only job is to herd enemies into 10 ft. bunch, so the sorcerer can use his attack. The second player cannot take any other actions himself, because he expends move actions (or at best is left with a standard attack).

[Pleh]

He means that there is a second player whose only job is to herd enemies into 10 ft. bunch, so the sorcerer can use his attack. The second player cannot take any other actions himself, because he expends move actions (or at best is left with a standard attack).

Against this specific scenario I've conjured, sure.

Not all enemies will be fought in groups, not all enemies will have the dex or feats to be able to move reliably. A smart sorcerer realizes when they're up against agile groups and elects to hold initiative to compensate strategically.

And martials already commonly resign themselves to trip based BFC, tanking/meatshielding, or ubercharging, which are just as limitedly useful PC roles equally trivialized by the right spell.

And BFC to herd enemies is probably not just using move actions. They're probably making attacks to force dodgers to expend movement.

It seems like the complaint is that players might have to sacrifice some individual awesome to create some more cooperative awesome.

So the criticism is, "it's not so much that it's bad or wrong as it might not taste good to a lot of players."

[Rynjin]

An interesting point, but it's fixed easy enough if it becomes a problem. We can give heavy martial focused characters (maybe anyone with full BAB) the ability to move with a single target while full attacking (again, as long as they also aren't maxing out their movement, which they shouldn't be if they were full attacking anyway, so it starts only potentially being a problem for pouncers).

Here's a good rule of thumb: If you need to introduce secondary houserules to justify or balance one houserule, you need to take your houserule back to the drawing board.

The basic concept isn't bad, but tying it to the AoO system is just begging for abuse. With Combat Reflexes it will always, on its own, devolve into a game of "Who moved up to attack first?", and that person will lose, since with only 14 Dex you can expend all your AoOs to dodge two attacks (a big deal in its own right) and put yourself out of attack range (since they can only 5 ft. step pursue you once).

A Feat to allow a single 5 ft. step to move during an enemy attack (or better, move 5 ft. as an Immediate action), and better tied to an opposed roll system (ex. Acrobatics vs the attack roll) would be less prone to abuse and have less problems overall.

[EldritchWeaver]

It seems like the complaint is that players might have to sacrifice some individual awesome to create some more cooperative awesome.

So the criticism is, "it's not so much that it's bad or wrong as it might not taste good to a lot of players."

Actually, the criticism is that there is always one player who has to sacrifice his fun so that another player can do his job. Compare this to flanking: The flank-partner still gets to do his own shtick.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Evasive Reflexes (Tome of Battle) -- the option exists, you're just supposed to pay for it.

It's probably not broken to give it away for free, though watch out for very high-Dex polearm users with Combat Reflexes who exceed their Run speed while walking backwards, 5 ft. at a time.


I'd play it, and name him Michael to boot.

[Pleh]

Actually, the criticism is that there is always one player who has to sacrifice his fun so that another player can do his job. Compare this to flanking: The flank-partner still gets to do his own shtick.

You're overestimating, I think. It won't "always" be anything because so many monsters won't even be applicable to this mechanic.

And expending all AoOs early in the round just means they don't threaten any more AoOs, giving the PCs freedom to move past them without consequence.

So martials are happy pushing their numbers down and our numbers up and focusing on trip control, but negating the specific advantage of mobility that specific enemies employ is just no fun at all?

I dunno. I think I would be happy wiffing all game if it consistently helped my partners land the killing blow. I would only be using that strategy against enemies that were dodgy to begin with. I can understand that it's probably not for everyone, but I don't see it necessarily causing problems.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Let's expand on and streamline this a bit.

1. "Attack of Opportunity" and "5-foot Step" are now Immediate Actions available to all characters. Anything that formerly granted more of either now grants more Immediate actions (but not Swift actions) each round instead.
2. 5-Foot Steps can be made in response to anything an AoO could, at the cost of being considered Flat-footed until the start of your next turn.
3. Evasion now allows you to make a 5-foot step when making a successful Reflex save in addition to its existing effect. Improved Evasion lets you move half your speed instead, but only grants its effect if you escape the area of effect.
4. Deft Dodger now causes being targeted by an attack to allow a 5-foot step.

So now combat looks like this: Fighter A takes a swing at Fighter B, who has Deft Dodger and thus hops backward to dodge, leaving A's threatened area and thus provoking. B gets to step up before making his second attack of the round, and so on until either A or B runs out of their Iteratives/Immediates for the round. A's friend Wizard C decides to help by casting Lightning Bolt at B, who has used up his Immediates for the round and can't dodge. But B has Evasion from his Rogue dip and manages to make his save, getting one last step on success.

In Pathfinder this makes the Swashbuckler the #1 best martial at moving and dodging since they get more Immediates to play around with.

A more mobile style of melee combat and new ways to respond to magic sounds decent to me. Now rip this apart, because there must be something I missed.

[Pleh]

Let's expand on and streamline this a bit.

1. "Attack of Opportunity" and "5-foot Step" are now Immediate Actions available to all characters. Anything that formerly granted more of either now grants more Immediate actions (but not Swift actions) each round instead.
2. 5-Foot Steps can be made in response to anything an AoO could, at the cost of being considered Flat-footed until the start of your next turn.
3. Evasion now allows you to make a 5-foot step when making a successful Reflex save in addition to its existing effect. Improved Evasion lets you move half your speed instead, but only grants its effect if you escape the area of effect.
4. Deft Dodger now causes being targeted by an attack to allow a 5-foot step.

So now combat looks like this: Fighter A takes a swing at Fighter B, who has Deft Dodger and thus hops backward to dodge, leaving A's threatened area and thus provoking. B gets to step up before making his second attack of the round, and so on until either A or B runs out of their Iteratives/Immediates for the round. A's friend Wizard C decides to help by casting Lightning Bolt at B, who has used up his Immediates for the round and can't dodge. But B has Evasion from his Rogue dip and manages to make his save, getting one last step on success.

In Pathfinder this makes the Swashbuckler the #1 best martial at moving and dodging since they get more Immediates to play around with.

A more mobile style of melee combat and new ways to respond to magic sounds decent to me. Now rip this apart, because there must be something I missed.

Only mistake I see (unless PF changed it) is that 5ft steps do not provoke AoO, so Fighter A does not get an AoO to 5ft step and follow Fighter B.

I like adding that dodging makes you flatfooted. It feels about right.

[EldritchWeaver]

You're overestimating, I think. It won't "always" be anything because so many monsters won't even be applicable to this mechanic.

And expending all AoOs early in the round just means they don't threaten any more AoOs, giving the PCs freedom to move past them without consequence.

So martials are happy pushing their numbers down and our numbers up and focusing on trip control, but negating the specific advantage of mobility that specific enemies employ is just no fun at all?

I dunno. I think I would be happy wiffing all game if it consistently helped my partners land the killing blow. I would only be using that strategy against enemies that were dodgy to begin with. I can understand that it's probably not for everyone, but I don't see it necessarily causing problems.

I can think of this going this way instead:


Sorcerer: Hey, I need to cast a spell next round, too, so please kite people.

Fighter: Not me again, I did it last round already.

Rogue: Not me, I just moved into position, so I can full-round sneak attack.

Wizard: Are you serious?

Cleric: If I run around, they'll attack me for sure. If I'm not dead, then I need to heal myself and can't help you with the mummy.

Not to mention that no one is actually forced to take an AoO.

[Pleh]

I see it this way: I've never seen a fighter complain about needing to do more tripping or aggro. Heck, grappling is another way a martial could make the enemy more vulnerable to spells. All of these tactics are praised for being legitimately fun ways to play fighter.

I also see this: I've never seen tactics "handed down" from player to player this way. More often, they'll make it more enticing: "I've got Glitterdust ready to go, can you heard them into position?" It's an invitation to be awesome together, not a sacrifice. After all, the fighter is probably going to do most of the coup de graces after the spell goes off.

[Deophaun]

After all, the fighter is probably going to do most of the coup de graces after the spell goes off.
A commoner with a scythe can do the coup de graces. If that's your time to shine...

[Eldariel]

A commoner with a scythe can do the coup de graces. If that's your time to shine...

More importantly, any 1 HD skeleton retainers you keep around can do it and your control pool can afford quite a few.

[Pleh]

More importantly, any 1 HD skeleton retainers you keep around can do it and your control pool can afford quite a few.

Problem solved. Have your skeletons herd the dodging swashbucklers. Fighter is free to do whatever because the minions have covered the tactical need.

[martixy]

I'm currently exploring that in my game...

...where you can replace ANY attack with a combat step. Which naturally leads to exactly the interaction you described. It also does a few other neat things to character mobility. Not the least of which is a decent buff to TWFs(more attacks, more steps). It also interacts interestingly with some tactical feats and Robilar's Gambit.
On the systems design front - it does NOT further fracture the flow of the game, like many other of the proposed houserules here. In that sense Dr_Dinosaur's suggestions do everything BUT streamline the game.
We can wax lyrical all we want here, but for any of it to see any real play, you have to think how it will impact the game.

N.B. Combat step is my term for it since you can move your shortest size - i.e. large creatures can make a 10 ft. 5ft step(hence the rename).

Also, last month, in a "what if evasion let you move" thread I mentioned we get one every month and someone questioned if we really do get one every month.

Yes. Yes, we do.

[Pleh]

"Replace any attack with a combat step."

Very nice way to put it. Have you experimented with monsters/monstrous PCs that implement large numbers of natural weapons? I have a friend with a Thri Keen build that lets him opt between iterative attacks or natural weapons depending on his circumstances.

[martixy]

"Replace any attack with a combat step."

Very nice way to put it. Have you experimented with monsters/monstrous PCs that implement large numbers of natural weapons? I have a friend with a Thri Keen build that lets him opt between iterative attacks or natural weapons depending on his circumstances.

Well, my game is ALL about monstrous PCs, so you could say I that... I have a dragon PC who relies on natural attacks.

He's used it a few times. I haven't seen any of the weirder interactions play out, but so far it's done exactly what it was designed to do - you make a full attack, drop your foe and trade some attacks for movement, so you can conk somebody else, instead of ending your turn.

Of course, it isn't as simple as that sentence, but close to. You gotta say you can't move more than your speed that way for example - I have a mimic monk with a move speed of 20ft. and a combat step of 10 ft.(being a large creature). But, he's using decisive strike, so that option hasn't been high up on his radar.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I don't see how my idea "further fractures the flow of the game" but yours is certainly a slicker solution so kudos. It covers basically every point I was trying to afaict.