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SalientGreen
2007-08-15, 05:29 PM
Could someone tell me why a Favored Soul doesn't get any domains? Would it really be so unbalancing to allow access to one domain? How better to prove the closeness to your diety then by casting spells specific to that diety, e.g. those granted by access to a domain?

Corolinth
2007-08-15, 05:41 PM
Probably because of the innate energy resistance and the bonus martial feats that the favored soul gets.

kjones
2007-08-15, 05:45 PM
Would you give them an additional spell known (their domain spell), or would you replace one of their spells known with a domain spell?

Jack_Simth
2007-08-15, 05:45 PM
Well...

They already get more spells known than the Sorcerer, better HP than the Sorcerer, better saves than the Sorcerer, and more class features than the Sorcerer.

To balance this, they've got an alignment restriction (one step from diety) and a dual casting stat, and use the marginally inferior Cleric spell list.

If you add domain spells on top of that... well...

Fax Celestis
2007-08-15, 05:48 PM
If you add domain spells on top of that... well...

And a domain power too!

DraPrime
2007-08-15, 05:48 PM
I think Jack just fully explained it.

Hallavast
2007-08-15, 06:04 PM
Well...

They already get more spells known than the Sorcerer, better HP than the Sorcerer, better saves than the Sorcerer, and more class features than the Sorcerer.

To balance this, they've got an alignment restriction (one step from diety) and a dual casting stat, and use the marginally inferior Cleric spell list.

If you add domain spells on top of that... well...

Sounds like they get everything that clerics get compared to the wizard...except for domain spells (and a power). I'd say if you add a domain (just one instead of two) they'd be on par with the cleric.

tannish2
2007-08-15, 06:07 PM
well it just doesnt fit the flavor of the class... screw weapon focus/specialization, give them domains, add the domain spells to their class list but not nessicarily their spells known(but make them possible to add to the list as one of their spells known if the player likes).

maybe they would get them whenever they wouldve gotten a martial feat or something, starting off with none and eventually getting just as many domains (or possible more, i dont remember) than clerics, they already lose one of the biggest advantages of divine spellcasting (the huge list that you can always pick your spells from) for sorcerer its OK, because there are very few wizards with EVERY spell, spirit shamans are just weird, but favored souls seem to be totally screwed here, am i wrong?

and really... the god of healing or god of magic would have their favored souls get weapon focus? maybe a god or war/combat/battle/killing might. and would the god of the neutral good sun god of healing and the neutral evil god of darkness undead and death have a favored soul with exactly the same abilities except different looking wings and holding different weapons?
and lets be honest, at higher levels the only thing that really matters on a weapon type is 1 handed light 2 handed or ranged, and crit range/multiplier.

Roderick_BR
2007-08-15, 06:08 PM
I'd see domain powers as a special training that clerics get, and others divine spellcasters lack.

Comparatively, they don't have it for the same reason that sorcerers doesn't get bonus feats like wizards do.

Cybren
2007-08-15, 06:18 PM
I'd see domain powers as a special training that clerics get, and others divine spellcasters lack.

Comparatively, they don't have it for the same reason that sorcerers doesn't get bonus feats like wizards do.

Because Wizards severely overestimates the power of spontaneous casting?

Hallavast
2007-08-15, 06:18 PM
I'd see domain powers as a special training that clerics get, and others divine spellcasters lack.
That souds pretty arbitrary. I don't remember reading anything like that in the Cleric description.


Comparatively, they don't have it for the same reason that sorcerers doesn't get bonus feats like wizards do.
Yeah... why don't sorcerers get bonus feats like wizards do?

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 06:22 PM
Completely random thought of how to rebuild the Favored soul:

They get the domains of their deity. All of them. That's their spell list and their class abilities. Otherwise, they cast spontaneously from their spell list, at the same rate as normal.

SalientGreen
2007-08-15, 07:06 PM
Would you give them an additional spell known (their domain spell), or would you replace one of their spells known with a domain spell?


My thought was to give them their choice of one of their gods' domain exactly like a cleric. The domain spell is NOT added to their spell list though; it is a bonus spell that reflects the flavor of the diety, castable (is that a word?) once per day.

Truthfully, I hadn't considered the domain power. That might be bit much.... But then again perhaps not. A Favored Soul is supposed to be 'favored' but as written a character who takes the favored soul class shows very little connection to the diety who has blessed them, except for granting the use of the diety's favorite weapon....

God of Choice: You are my favored one!
Character: Oh thank you mistress! I shall spread the word to the masses! But, how will they know I serve you?
GoC: Easy! You can now wield my favorite weapon, a sickle!
Character: Oh...thank you...I think....
GoC: And in a few levels you'll be really good at using it too!
Character: Gosh....
GoC: And later on, I'll give you wings!
Character: Ok, well that is sort of cool....
GoC: Go forth and enlighten!

Person_Man
2007-08-15, 07:09 PM
Completely random thought of how to rebuild the Favored soul:

They get the domains of their deity. All of them. That's their spell list and their class abilities. Otherwise, they cast spontaneously from their spell list, at the same rate as normal.

You know, I really like that idea MrNexx.

But at 1st level they'd be pretty overpowered, having 4+ domain powers. Perhaps this would work:

d8 hit points
all strong Saves
all armor and shields except tower shields
3/4 BAB
Cha based spontanous casting using the Sorcerer progression
Spell list = Domain list
1st level: Gain 2 domains (including granted powers).

Shield of Faith: At 1st level you gain Energy Resistance against all types of energy equal to your current Favored Soul level. Energy Resistance from multiple sources never stack.

Revalation: At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels, you gain 1 additional domain, expanding your spell list and gaining another power. This additional domain must be from your god's list of domains. If your god does not have 7 domains, you can work with your DM to pick a related domain that follows your god's general ethos.

Power of Faith: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, gain 1 additional use per day of any one domain power you possess. These extra uses need not be permanently applied to one domain power - thus you can use them as a pool to fuel any power until your extra uses are exhasted. Furthermore, you gain the ability to burn 1 use of any domain power (or an extra use granted by the Power of Faith ability) to re-roll any Saving Throw as an Immediate action (remember, only 1 Immediate or Swift action per round), which you may announce after the DM informs you about the success or failure of your initial Save roll.

Ascencion: At 20th level you gain wings with a Fly speed equal to your base land movement and your type changes to Outsider, except you can still be ressurected.

Due to the limited spell list, this class is definitely weaker then most other full casters. But it has a lot of other things going for it: plenty of spells per day, a good reason to stay in the class for all 20 levels, a true "favored by the gods" fluff, and the ability to custumize your Favored Soul to suit your god.

Thoughts?

TheOOB
2007-08-15, 07:17 PM
Domains really aren't needed. For clerics, domains are a way to make clerics of different gods different even though they are the same class. Since favored soul has a limited spell list, they already have a built in way of being different.

Personally, I think favored soul is the best designed spellcasting class in D&D, it had good abilities throughout the class making it so you lose something by PrCing, and it has duel attribute casting which is a major balancing factor.

Hallavast
2007-08-15, 07:26 PM
Domains really aren't needed. For clerics, domains are a way to make clerics of different gods different even though they are the same class. Since favored soul has a limited spell list, they already have a built in way of being different.


But their spell list doesn't have to reflect anything to do with their diety. And without the added diversity that having that domain can bring, they seem a shade less powerful than the cleric.

TheOOB
2007-08-15, 07:35 PM
But their spell list doesn't have to reflect anything to do with their diety. And without the added diversity that having that domain can bring, they seem a shade less powerful than the cleric.

It doesn't have to, but it can, and if the player cares around RP it should.

Favored Souls are more then a shade less powerful then a cleric, but is that a bad thing? They are still more powerful then virtually any non-caster or hybrid caster, do we need another CoDzilla?

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 07:48 PM
You know, I really like that idea MrNexx.

But at 1st level they'd be pretty overpowered, having 4+ domain powers. Perhaps this would work:

I agree. I was just throwing it out as a preliminary for ideas.


d8 hit points
all strong Saves
all armor and shields except tower shields
3/4 BAB
Cha based spontanous casting using the Sorcerer progression
Spell list = Domain list
1st level: Gain 2 domains (including granted powers).

Shield of Faith: At 1st level you gain Energy Resistance against all types of energy equal to your current Favored Soul level. Energy Resistance from multiple sources never stack.

Not bad... gives you a reason to stick with the class (aside from the new domains).


Revalation: At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels, you gain 1 additional domain, expanding your spell list and gaining another power. This additional domain must be from your god's list of domains. If your god does not have 7 domains, you can work with your DM to pick a related domain that follows your god's general ethos.

Not bad. I wouldn't put this on a Spells known thing, to keep them in the class.


Power of Faith: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, gain 1 additional use per day of any one domain power you possess. These extra uses need not be permanently applied to one domain power - thus you can use them as a pool to fuel any power until your extra uses are exhasted. Furthermore, you gain the ability to burn 1 use of any domain power (or an extra use granted by the Power of Faith ability) to re-roll any Saving Throw as an Immediate action (remember, only 1 Immediate or Swift action per round), which you may announce after the DM informs you about the success or failure of your initial Save roll.

Not bad.


Ascencion: At 20th level you gain wings with a Fly speed equal to your base land movement and your type changes to Outsider, except you can still be ressurected.

Due to the limited spell list, this class is definitely weaker then most other full casters. But it has a lot of other things going for it: plenty of spells per day, a good reason to stay in the class for all 20 levels, a true "favored by the gods" fluff, and the ability to custumize your Favored Soul to suit your god.

Thoughts?

Hmm... to ascension, I would add an element of damage reduction (10/alignment opposite deities; lawful or evil for a CG deity), not just "becomes an outsider".

Hallavast
2007-08-15, 07:48 PM
It doesn't have to, but it can, and if the player cares around RP it should.

Favored Souls are more then a shade less powerful then a cleric, but is that a bad thing? They are still more powerful then virtually any non-caster or hybrid caster, do we need another CoDzilla?

Well, if classes that are designed to fill similar roles don't have to be balanced, why have there been so many threads about fighters being worthless? Why would you play a favored soul when the cleric and druid are both obviously more powerful?

Also consider this. If your cleric worships a diety, his domains will match the diety's list. But you can have a favored soul of the same diety whose spell list has nothing to do with that diety. It doesn't make very much sense to me.

There doesnt seem to be any reason for the favored soul to not have a domain. It doesn't unbalance the class, it makes sense RP-wise, and the added spell selection would make the class more fun. It seems like an oversight on the part of the designer that the class doesn't have a domain.

Starsinger
2007-08-15, 09:36 PM
Why don't Favored Souls get domains? I dunno. Can it be broken? I think so... I mean... Any Spell. As a spontaneous ability? Sounds pretty awesome to me

Hyrael
2007-08-15, 09:55 PM
I dont see why Favored Souls Shouldnt Get One of their diety's domains spells added to their class spell list. Not as bonus spells known, mind you, just the opportunity to use them. no domain powers, though.

This is just like the Adept in eberron. I dont see it as that unbalancing, and adds flavor, as well as helps with the logistics (a favored soul of a madness diety should have madness spells, damnit!)

Bosh
2007-08-15, 10:03 PM
Why would you play a favored soul when the cleric and druid are both obviously more powerful?
Because playing a character that is significantly more powerful than anyone else is rude?

Lemur
2007-08-15, 10:17 PM
I've always liked the Mystic class, from the Dragonlance campaign book, just because it got a domain.

Ravyn
2007-08-15, 10:26 PM
In addition, one of my friends has recently been discovering the hard way that lacking both domains and turn attempts gimps the living daylights out of the favored soul when it comes to divine caster feats, as pretty much all of them see to require one or the other, and nobody really thinks about favored souls when feat-writing.

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 12:58 AM
Hmm... to ascension, I would add an element of damage reduction (10/alignment opposite deities; lawful or evil for a CG deity), not just "becomes an outsider".

http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/15649.html

Hope you don't mind, Person Man

Duke of URL
2007-08-16, 06:16 AM
Completely random thought of how to rebuild the Favored soul:

They get the domains of their deity. All of them. That's their spell list and their class abilities. Otherwise, they cast spontaneously from their spell list, at the same rate as normal.

How about a slight tweak... their spells known, as you say, come from the combined domain spell lists of their deity. (Maybe add one spell known per 2 levels from any other spell on the Cleric list of a level they can cast.)

Domain powers are granted over time. At level one, choose one of your deity's domain, and receive that domain power. At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, add one additional domain power from your deity's domain list.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-16, 06:50 AM
You could, of course, play a spontaneous cleric. They get to choose some spells known from the cleric list and then add their domains to these.

Person_Man
2007-08-16, 08:09 AM
http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/15649.html

Hope you don't mind, Person Man

Not at all. I like your revisions, and generally think that base classes should have some sort of powerful 20th level capstone ability. I'm almost tempted to just give them Damage Reduction 10/-.

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 08:31 AM
How about a slight tweak... their spells known, as you say, come from the combined domain spell lists of their deity. (Maybe add one spell known per 2 levels from any other spell on the Cleric list of a level they can cast.)

Domain powers are granted over time. At level one, choose one of your deity's domain, and receive that domain power. At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, add one additional domain power from your deity's domain list.

Actually, check out Person_Man's revision (and my revision of his revision). They start with 2 domains, only, and gain more as they level up.

And I might think of a higher DR, but I would be reluctant to make it 10/-; too powerful, and not something you usually see in an outsider.

Matthew
2007-08-16, 10:59 AM
You could, of course, play a spontaneous cleric. They get to choose some spells known from the cleric list and then add their domains to these.

That's my favoured official solution.

SalientGreen
2007-08-16, 04:16 PM
You know, I really like that idea MrNexx.

But at 1st level they'd be pretty overpowered, having 4+ domain powers. Perhaps this would work:

d8 hit points
all strong Saves
all armor and shields except tower shields
3/4 BAB
Cha based spontanous casting using the Sorcerer progression
Spell list = Domain list
1st level: Gain 2 domains (including granted powers).

Shield of Faith: At 1st level you gain Energy Resistance against all types of energy equal to your current Favored Soul level. Energy Resistance from multiple sources never stack.

Revalation: At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels, you gain 1 additional domain, expanding your spell list and gaining another power. This additional domain must be from your god's list of domains. If your god does not have 7 domains, you can work with your DM to pick a related domain that follows your god's general ethos.

Power of Faith: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, gain 1 additional use per day of any one domain power you possess. These extra uses need not be permanently applied to one domain power - thus you can use them as a pool to fuel any power until your extra uses are exhasted. Furthermore, you gain the ability to burn 1 use of any domain power (or an extra use granted by the Power of Faith ability) to re-roll any Saving Throw as an Immediate action (remember, only 1 Immediate or Swift action per round), which you may announce after the DM informs you about the success or failure of your initial Save roll.

Ascencion: At 20th level you gain wings with a Fly speed equal to your base land movement and your type changes to Outsider, except you can still be ressurected.

Due to the limited spell list, this class is definitely weaker then most other full casters. But it has a lot of other things going for it: plenty of spells per day, a good reason to stay in the class for all 20 levels, a true "favored by the gods" fluff, and the ability to custumize your Favored Soul to suit your god.

Thoughts?

So spell DC would be CH based and not WI based as written?

Also, doesn't this mean that a 1st level favored soul will only have 2 spells on her list?

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 05:16 PM
So spell DC would be CH based and not WI based as written?

Also, doesn't this mean that a 1st level favored soul will only have 2 spells on her list?

Yep. But they'd have all good saves, and be gaining domains as they go.

Person_Man
2007-08-16, 05:52 PM
So spell DC would be CH based and not WI based as written?

Also, doesn't this mean that a 1st level favored soul will only have 2 spells on her list?

Yes. That's the point. Having duel attribute dependency for spells is wrong. No other class has it.

Again, its always difficult making a home brew full caster. If you give them anything in addition to full casting, they're probably too strong. So your best bet is usually to give them a limited spell list, like a Beguiler or Duskblade, along with some useful but not game breaking abilities.

SalientGreen
2007-08-16, 06:47 PM
What about orisons?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-16, 07:07 PM
Like Jack said the class is pretty strong mechanically. The two real weaknesses the class has (No Domains or Turning) can be pretty easily overcome with a few PRC level dips.

Basically 2 or 3 PRC level dips with or without a feat for an extra domain addresses most of the Favored Sould class domain and turning issues by level 7 or 8.

Take a level in the Divine Oracle which grants the Oracle Domain and spend a feat to learn an Extra Domain like Spell or Travel.

Take a level in the Contemplative PRC to pick up a Bonus domanin and divine health. You can spend a feat for an extra domain afterwards.

Take a level in Sacred Exoricist to pick up Turn Undead.

Since the Arcane Disciple general feat page 79 Complete Divine has a prereq of Spellcraft - 4, able to cast ARCANE SPELLS and alignment matches your deity's alignment. You might house rule it that Favored Souls can also benefit in a NON PRC game.

There is the option of playing a mechanically weaker UA/SRD Spellcaster which has a lot fewer known spells, D4, Poor BAB, choice of save but gets bonus feats at 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 in a non PRC game since you can take Turning as a Bonus Feat and since you can take turning there is really no reason not to include Arcane Disciple for Spellcasters.

Draz74
2007-08-16, 07:42 PM
Yes. That's the point. Having dual attribute dependency for spells is wrong. No other class has it.

Of course, some of us think that giving it to all the other full casters is a better idea than taking it away from the Favored Souls!

Jack_Simth
2007-08-16, 08:32 PM
Sounds like they get everything that clerics get compared to the wizard...except for domain spells (and a power). I'd say if you add a domain (just one instead of two) they'd be on par with the cleric.
Not really. A Wizard has bonus feats and spells (and a familiar); a Sorcerer has spells (and a familiar). When you replace Wizard with Cleric, you lose bonus feats (and the familiar), gain two domains, better BAB, a better HD, a few more spells per day, and another good save (and turning). When you replace Sorcerer with Favored Soul, you lose single-stat casting (and the familiar), and gain better BAB (like the Cleric transition), a better HD (like the Cleric transition), a few more spells known (but not spells per day; unlike the Cleric transition), two additional good saves (unlike the cleric) and class features.

The Favored Soul compared to the Sorcerer is already ahead of the Cleric compared to the Wizard. Domains would make it worse.