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Jimp
2007-08-15, 06:28 PM
The recent Druid threads have got me interested in playing a battle-raging Barb/Druid who rages and wildshapes into a bear. The problem is that I know nothing about the effectiveness of Druids in 2e, which is what my IRL group usually plays. My DM is away with our books at the moment, but I can get them for the actual details of the class.
The questions:
1. How combat effective are Druids in 2e?
2. Is there anything in specific that I should avoid/make use of?
It should also be noted that we usually play FR and that the DM puts some focus on the druid circle and hierarchy in the campaigns. Since nobody in the group has played a Druid before, he will probably have me in combat for my rank at some stage in the campaign.
In case it's relevant: starting level is between 1 and 3

Fax Celestis
2007-08-15, 06:29 PM
There's a good reason Druids rock the casbah in 3e: they sucked harder than a black hole in 2e.

Spiryt
2007-08-15, 06:42 PM
There's a good reason Druids rock the casbah in 3e: they sucked harder than a black hole in 2e.

Obviously, I'm following other logic than WotC guys - If something was sucking in 2ed I would make it balanced in 3ed. Not make it so powerful that virtually few other classes are sucking NOW.

But obviously I'm not games designer :smallannoyed:

Jimp
2007-08-15, 06:48 PM
Let's keep things about the 2e Druid and not 3e game balance please :smallsmile:

tannish2
2007-08-15, 06:58 PM
well... from what i remember summon natures ally was more powerful, but had a casting time of 10 minutes

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 07:03 PM
0) Make a complete spell list. Sit down with the books and write down every spell your character can cast, and get familiar with them. They're the strength of a druid in 2nd edition.

1) Animal Friendship is a spell. You can keep twice your HD in animals around, and train them as well. If you're starting at 3rd level, look at a brown bear (a +4 or higher bonus counts as an additional HD, so you can't manage a Cave bear), a huge bat, a spotted lion (cave lion, essentially), a wild tiger, or even a couple worgs or a dire wolf (a bit sub-par, but you don't have to worry about them being evil). With that noted, Animal Training is a good NWP to invest in, and have it for any creatures you're planning on keeping.

2) Early weapon proficiencies would be good as quarterstaff or club, and scimitar. There are a couple good combat spells in the first two spell levels (Shillelagh and Flame Blade), and proficiency in those weapons let you use them to their full effect. You might hold off on Scimitar until 4th level, and pick up dagger or sling at 1st level... sling makes you deadly with Magic Stone, but daggers are frequently magical and easily thrown.

3) Charm Person or Mammal is your friend.

4) Fire Trap is a good way to make money. Sell it to your group's wizard, and other people who want a single place warded.

5) Shapechanging is quite a bit different. You can only be a mammal once a day, a bird once a day, and a reptile once a day. Figure out some favored shapes, and get the characteristics down so you can quick reference them.

That's the basics.

Caxton
2007-08-15, 07:07 PM
Sadly I have to agree that 2e druids aren't great at all. Be prepared to be outclassed by the party cleric almost every time. That said, there are some things you can do.

1. Use scimitars. I still have no idea why druids are allowed to use them, but they are the best weapon for a druid.

2. If you find a dragon, make armor out of it. In 2e, the dragonhide armor is 4 worse than the dragons ac. Even a wyrmling red will yield armor with AC 4, which completely outclasses leather armor (only +5 leather surpasses this)

3. If you want to break the stereotype of a druid, consider taking the Lost druid kit from Complete Druid. Nothing says fun like a legion of undead.

4. Dual/multi class. If you're eligible to, dual-classing can be very potent. If not, multi-classing won't hinder you too much. Consider fighter or ranger to boost your melee skills.

5. Have fun. Even if your druid sucks in combat he can be fun. Just do what you want and let others complain about how underpowered druids are.

(bribe the DM if you can. It might make ranked druids mysteriously drop dead:smallwink: )

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 07:09 PM
well... from what i remember summon natures ally was more powerful, but had a casting time of 10 minutes

There are two 4th level summoning spells that druids should have (Call Woodland Beings is moved to the Animal sphere in some errata). One is Animal Summoning I, which will call up to 8 animals with 4 HD or less... that's a pack of wolves. They'll stay for a specific task (be that a fight or something else). Call Woodland beings only works on woodland beings (brownies, centaurs, dryads, pixies, satyrs, sprites, treants or unicorns). However, both only work on creatures actually in the area.

JadedDM
2007-08-15, 07:19 PM
5) Shapechanging is quite a bit different. You can only be a mammal once a day, a bird once a day, and a reptile once a day. Figure out some favored shapes, and get the characteristics down so you can quick reference them.

Also should note, druids cannot shapechange until level 7.

Decoy Lockbox
2007-08-15, 07:36 PM
Man, druids sure seemed cool in 1st edition though. Finger of death got it's start as a druid only spell back then.

But in 2nd edition you are just a cleric with worse usable armors and no choice in spells spheres.

Plus, Call Lightning's casting time is.....

ONE TURN!

Not a round, a TURN....that is, TEN ROUNDS. But if you can somehow get it off, it will annihilate. It does 2d8+1d8 per caster level to each thing in a 10 ft radius of the bolt, every round.

JadedDM
2007-08-15, 07:42 PM
That's assuming, of course, that there is a storm all ready present. Call Lightning is worthless on a clear, sunny day.

Matthew
2007-08-15, 07:49 PM
Make sure the Mage casts Armour on your Druid prior to any adventure.

What source books are you using?

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 07:54 PM
Also should note, druids cannot shapechange until level 7.

Good point. I figured that was self-evident. However, it is worth noting that you can't turn into anything but real-world animals, and are limited to the size of a black bear... meaning no larger than medium, and no smaller than Tiny.

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 07:56 PM
Make sure the Mage casts Armour on your Druid prior to any adventure.

What source books are you using?

Good point. Trade a Fire Trap for that. Great spell trade, there, he won't get Fire Trap until 7th level (at best).

Jimp
2007-08-15, 08:38 PM
This is starting to look grim :smallfrown: While my group aren't heavy optimisers they like to be good at what they do. If what I'm reading is right then I doubt my barb/druid could really contribute too well :smallsigh:

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 08:52 PM
This is starting to look grim :smallfrown: While my group aren't heavy optimisers they like to be good at what they do. If what I'm reading is right then I doubt my barb/druid could really contribute too well :smallsigh:

How are you getting the Barbarian?

Jimp
2007-08-15, 08:55 PM
How are you getting the Barbarian?

While our DM is strict on reasons to dual-class (which I have sorted in my background) he is very easy going on class limitations. I'm just taking Barb to get rage and was then hoping to use in while wildshaped, but it doesn't look like I'll get far enough to pull this off.

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 08:58 PM
While our DM is strict on reasons to dual-class (which I have sorted in my background) he is very easy going on class limitations. I'm just taking Barb to get rage and was then hoping to use in while wildshaped, but it doesn't look like I'll get far enough to pull this off.

Barbarians don't rage in 2e; there's a Berserker kit for fighters in the Complete Fighter, and some stuff in the Complete Barbarian, but I can't recall anything else (aside from the Warp Frenzy stuff in Celts Campaign sourcebook).

Or are you thinking of playing a 3e Druid?

Indon
2007-08-15, 08:59 PM
That's assuming, of course, that there is a storm all ready present. Call Lightning is worthless on a clear, sunny day.

2E Druids don't happen to have a spell that, say, summons a storm, would they?

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 09:04 PM
2E Druids don't happen to have a spell that, say, summons a storm, would they?

Not at 5th level.

JadedDM
2007-08-15, 09:20 PM
Yeah, there's Control Winds. But that's not available until level 9. Weather Summoning at level 11 (must have a WIS of 17 or better) and Control Weather at level 14 (must have a WIS of 18 or better).

Jimp
2007-08-15, 09:28 PM
Barbarians don't rage in 2e; there's a Berserker kit for fighters in the Complete Fighter, and some stuff in the Complete Barbarian, but I can't recall anything else (aside from the Warp Frenzy stuff in Celts Campaign sourcebook).

Or are you thinking of playing a 3e Druid?

Sorry, that was the kit I was thinking of. Away from books so I'm not entirely sure.
I don't know anything about the 3.0 druid, sorry.

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 09:30 PM
Sorry, that was the kit I was thinking of. Away from books so I'm not entirely sure.
I don't know anything about the 3.0 druid, sorry.

But, yeah, that will work. How many levels of fighter are you planning on taking?

Kurald Galain
2007-08-16, 06:59 AM
I don't think 2E druids are that bad. The priestly spell spheres they get are probably the best in the player's handbook, at any rate.

Premier
2007-08-16, 07:33 AM
Ask your DM about any house rules he has on druids and clerics.

An ordinary, strictly BtB general cleric has access to all cleric spells, making them better casters then druids. However, many DMs enforce god-specific clerics with limited access to spell sphere, in which case druids are on an even foot with them. If you're not above such things, whine until the DM agrees to use the spell lists from Mentzer Classic, where druids can cast all cleric spells plus some druid-specific ones.

But all that aside, druids are a good utility class - assuming the style of the game caters to them. With spells like Talk to Animals, he's the ultimate spymaster in the wilderness, learning about everything the local fauna has seen, heard or smelled. Also, he can pass through vegetation leaving no trace from 3rd level, making him a better outdoor scout than your low-level thief or ranger.

And let's not mention his high Charisma. If your group doesn't have a paladin, the druid will likely assume the poosition of party face, conducting all negotiations with other people.

As for combat, sure, he's not a frontline fighter like an overpowered 3E druid, but he's still a good supporter. At lower levels, Entangle and Faerie Fire do make a difference when cast at the beginning of combat. Stay on the sidelines and pepper the enemy with sling bullets or darts while they're concentrating on your main combatants - if you're using by-the-book initiative, it's a great way of disrupting enemy spellcasters.

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 08:42 AM
An ordinary, strictly BtB general cleric has access to all cleric spells, making them better casters then druids.

No they don't. They lose out on Animal, plant, weather, most of the elemental sphere, and don't have automatic access to the ToM spheres, either.

hamlet
2007-08-16, 09:37 AM
This is starting to look grim :smallfrown: While my group aren't heavy optimisers they like to be good at what they do. If what I'm reading is right then I doubt my barb/druid could really contribute too well :smallsigh:

Unless you have an issue with the race, choose a half-elf. Multi-class Druid/Fighter. Your advancement will be a bit slower, but not overly much.

You'll have the fighting skills of a warrior type and the impressive spell casting ability of a Druid (Druids, in 2e, have a lot of spells that Clerics don't and would give their eye teeth for). By 7th level, you'll have the ability to change into a wolf or bear or most any animal of medium size you can imagine. With your combat skills (a very nice THAC0 and weapon specialization) you can really tear it up as a bear specialized in claw attacks.

You'll have plenty of non-weapon proficiencies. Try to pick up a few that will let you interact with animals. Animal training is a must. Veterinary healing is also a must. Hunting is always good.

Forget about kits. You don't need them.

Call lightning, as written, is not really a combat spell. Takes too long. So you have two options there.

1) Ask your GM to house rule it and reduce the casting time. Woudn't recomend this option or it'll lead to abuse.

2) Realize what Call Lightning is good for and use it that way. Having trouble with a small Orc horde ravaging the wilderness? Call lightning will, literally, obliterate them. It's also a great way to break into a castle with minimal losses on your side. Great for destroying seige weapons and buildings. If you can scout ahead and remain unseen (more of a thief/druid cross really, but very good) you can use the spell to great effect on larger monsters who are unaware of your presence. Drop it on a group of stupid hill giants and watch them scramble.

Realize what the strengths of a druid are and utilize them. The spell Entangle is your friend. Learn it, love it. Don't play a neo-hippie druid nature loving tree hugger. They aren't that. They maintain a balance between good and evil as exemplified by nature. And nature is cruel. Learn from it.

Be the lion stalking through the tall grass. Drag the antelope to its death and devour it. Wolves hunt in packs, why don't you? Crocodiles lay in wait for pray, hidden in the marshes. Why aren't you? Hawks can see a mouse three miles off from the air. So can you.

Watch some of those nature shows where you see lions devouring poor helpless wildabeast and learn from them. Be a force of nature.

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 10:02 AM
Unless you have an issue with the race, choose a half-elf. Multi-class Druid/Fighter. Your advancement will be a bit slower, but not overly much.

This is not bad advice, here. If your DM doesn't allow multi-class fighters to get specialization, a human dual-class is good (and I think you said your DM would allow them easier than the book does).


You'll have the fighting skills of a warrior type and the impressive spell casting ability of a Druid (Druids, in 2e, have a lot of spells that Clerics don't and would give their eye teeth for). By 7th level, you'll have the ability to change into a wolf or bear or most any animal of medium size you can imagine. With your combat skills (a very nice THAC0 and weapon specialization) you can really tear it up as a bear specialized in claw attacks.

Watch this part, though. First of all, as earlier, know forms which are good for things. I generally divide them up into 3 categories... assault, scout, and movement (things like swimming, flying, or really fast running). KNOW the stats for at least one for each type (reptile, bird, mammal)... write them down on notecards for fast reference.

For example, your Mammal Notecard might include:
Assault: Black Bear (OK AC, 3 attacks a round and a bear hug)
Scout: Squirrel (fast as a human, hard to notice; flying squirrels can also glide)
Movement: Large Bat (flying), Dolphin (swimming), cheetah (fast)

Each of these will only take one or two lines on a notecard to fill out the pertinent facts, but you'll have them for quick reference. See if your DM will allow dinosaurs or pleistocene mammals. Some may not.


You'll have plenty of non-weapon proficiencies. Try to pick up a few that will let you interact with animals. Animal training is a must. Veterinary healing is also a must. Hunting is always good.

Remember that you can choose from General, Priest, and Warrior. Rogue proficiencies are sometimes useful (like Tumbling), so it's worth the extra slot, occasionally.


Forget about kits. You don't need them.

Not necessarily. You're interested in a Berserker. The Shapeshifter or Savage from Complete Druids are also in line with what you want. Ask your DM.


Call lightning, as written, is not really a combat spell. Takes too long. So you have two options there.

QFT. It's a war spell. At 7th level, however, you can cast it, turn into a tiny bird, and then rain lightning down on your enemies for a little over an hour.

hamlet
2007-08-16, 11:53 AM
QFT. It's a war spell. At 7th level, however, you can cast it, turn into a tiny bird, and then rain lightning down on your enemies for a little over an hour.

Oh you evil evil person you. Hadn't thought of this one.

As for kits: I've never really liked them. For the most part, there's nothing in them that couldn't be done by good role playing except for twinkerific special powers. But hey, that's just me.

Lemur
2007-08-16, 12:14 PM
Ask your DM if you can pick an animal(s) to have gained from Animal Friendship before the game starts. If you can hand pick the animal yourself, so much the better.

Some good 2 HD animals include the Dakon (under "Mammals"), the Blood Hawk (under "Birds") and the Poisonous Toad (Under "Toad"). The Dakon's entry says it gets +2 to attacks, which makes one wonder why they couldn't have given it an 18 THAC0 on the table. The poisonous toad has a save-or-die effect on its bite, which isn't too shabby for a 2 HD animal. If giant insects are considered animals for purposes of the spell as well, the Praying Mantis is also worth a look.

In addition to looking at bears and cats at the 3-4 HD level, the Giant Eagle and Giant Owl, under Birds are pretty good.

There are several creatures under animal entries that have abilities beyond what normal animals would have. In addition, the MM doesn't list their intelligence, which raises some questions as to whether they'd be appropriate for purposes of the spell or not. Some of these include the Baergala (5 HD, listed under Mammals), the Eblis (5 HD, listed under Birds), the Elven Cat (4 HD, listed under Cats), Soldier Termites (3 HD, listed under Insects), and the Winged Snake (5 HD). These "animals" all have sort of special or supernatural abilities, in addition to having good attacks.

Meat Shield
2007-08-16, 12:59 PM
Two things I did with my 2nd Ed druids:

1) Dual class with Ranger, and dual wield scimitars. Yes there is overlap between the classes, but you are pretty much the king in outdoor situations.

2) (I loved this trick) I don't know what level you are, but look at the spell Giant Insect. Then get yourself some bombardier beetles (normal sized). What I did was find a bombardier beetle nest, take a crap, and wrap some of my waste and as many insects as I could affect in large leaves (the waste is so they would survive in the leaf until I needed them). Cast the spell as you throw the leaf bundle at your enemies. BLAMMO! Instant summoning spell! Bombardier beetles rocked if you have never seen them. Acid clouds make for excellent battlefield control. Also works for any type of insect you want. Rhinoceros beetle works well also.

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 03:02 PM
Oh you evil evil person you. Hadn't thought of this one.

As for kits: I've never really liked them. For the most part, there's nothing in them that couldn't be done by good role playing except for twinkerific special powers. But hey, that's just me.

It depends HIGHLY on the book. Complete Druid and Complete Fighter kits are generally balanced, mechanically... they may have a couple bonus NWPs or something, but that's it. Meine Alfe, however, kits just give OMGWTFUBER powers for no reason at all, usually balanced by fairly minor restrictions. Complete Bard almost remakes the class every time.

I find them good for solidifying concepts.

Matthew
2007-08-16, 04:41 PM
A Half Elf Fighter/Druid with the Berserker Kit sounds quite fun to me and probably quite playable.

Jimp
2007-08-16, 06:42 PM
A friend pointed out the Totemist kit to me. Since I doubt we will reach 7th level any time soon I was thinking about a Half-Elf Fighter/Black Bear Totemist multiclass.
Thoughts?

Matthew
2007-08-16, 06:58 PM
Sounds cool. I doubt you'd be able to use the Berserker Kit as well, but this would be interesting. Being able to Shape Change into a Bear would be good for the first three levels or so for sure.

Jimp
2007-08-16, 07:10 PM
Sounds cool. I doubt you'd be able to use the Berserker Kit as well, but this would be interesting. Being able to Shape Change into a Bear would be good for the first three levels or so for sure.

Yeah I'm not allowed take 2 kits but it's not too great a loss. The early bear form will be useful enough.

Quick question on 2e shapechange/wildshape:
When I attack do I use the bonuses listed in the MM or my own bonuses? For example, if an animal had +1 attack and 1d4+1 damage, both bonuses being from high str, but my str was higher would I use the animal's normal bonuses or my bonuses? I'm kind of confused as to how literal or implied that part of the ability description was.

Matthew
2007-08-16, 07:20 PM
Ah, right. Well, as I understand it you basically use all the physical stats of the creature you have transformed into. I would have to look into it to confirm.

hamlet
2007-08-16, 07:34 PM
It depends HIGHLY on the book. Complete Druid and Complete Fighter kits are generally balanced, mechanically... they may have a couple bonus NWPs or something, but that's it. Meine Alfe, however, kits just give OMGWTFUBER powers for no reason at all, usually balanced by fairly minor restrictions. Complete Bard almost remakes the class every time.

I find them good for solidifying concepts.

Which is why, for the most part, I play Core Only. As a DM, I can mine the books for interesting things, but that don't mean I have to let the players fool around with them.


Ah, right. Well, as I understand it you basically use all the physical stats of the creature you have transformed into. I would have to look into it to confirm.

Have always ruled that you use your own Thac0, but use the shape's attack forms and damage and AC (along with any applicable magic modifications). But that's just my interpretation.

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 08:37 PM
Have always ruled that you use your own Thac0, but use the shape's attack forms and damage and AC (along with any applicable magic modifications). But that's just my interpretation.

That's pretty much canon.

Lemur
2007-08-16, 08:43 PM
Hee hee. Physical stats on a monster? Pure crazyness, I call it.

No animal will get bonuses or penalties from strength, dexterity, or constitution, because they don't have any ability scores. When you change shape, you get the special qualities and attacks of the animal, its movement modes and speed, its armor class, and its attacks. You get as many attacks as the animal has, and deal the same damage the animal deals, but I've always understood that you use your own THAC0.

It's not clear whether or not you apply your own bonuses or penalties from high or low strength or dexterity to your attacks and armor class while shifted.

Matthew
2007-08-16, 08:52 PM
Normally Shape Change works like this:


He gains the ability to shapechange into a reptile, bird, or mammal up to three times per day after he reaches 7th level. Each animal form (reptile, bird, or mammal) can be used only once per day. The size can vary from that of a bullfrog or small bird to as large as a black bear. Upon assuming a new form, the druid heals 10-60% (1d6 x 10%) of all damage he has suffered (round fractions down). The druid can only assume the form of a normal (real world) animal in its normal proportions, but by doing so he takes on all of that creature's characteristics -- its movement rate and abilities, its Armor Class, number of attacks, and damage per attack.
Thus, a druid could change into a wren to fly across a river, transform into a black bear on the opposite side and attack the orcs gathered there, and finally change into a snake to escape into the bushes before more orcs arrive. The druid's clothing and one item held in each hand also become part of the new body; these reappear when the druid resumes his normal shape. The items cannot be used while the druid is in animal form.

I was thinking you attack as the Animal, using its Hit Dice to determine THAC0, but since you don't appear to get its Hit Dice you may have to use the Druid's THAC0.

Druid's Handbook says you retain the Druid's Saving Throws and Hit Points, but does not mention THAC0 at all. DM call.