PDA

View Full Version : Unnecessary skills?



BCOVertigo
2007-08-15, 06:37 PM
I have been thinking about this for some time and again in another thread, what's the point of the Profession skill? I really can't think of any professions that are mainly based on wisdom (aside from maybe .....nope those examples just fell through too). Can anyone show me a profession that is solidly based on wisdom?

Feel free to post skills you think are superfluous too.

AlterForm
2007-08-15, 06:39 PM
Profession:Priest/Cleric/Clergyman?

Profession:Guy who does those things on Amazon where you identify stuff in pictures all day?

Profession:Look for a profession clearly based off wisdom?

:smalltongue:

I've also never found any use for the Appraise skill...but most of the campaign's I've played in just assume the merchants are decently honest. :smallbiggrin:

BCOVertigo
2007-08-15, 06:41 PM
Profession:Priest/Cleric/Clergyman?

Profession:Guy who does those things on Amazon where you identify stuff in pictures all day?

Profession:Look for a profession clearly based off wisdom?

:smalltongue:

So essentially it's here so the wisdom based characters can have a mechanic to make inconsequential amounts of money?

AlterForm
2007-08-15, 06:43 PM
So essentially it's here so the wisdom based characters can have a mechanic to make inconsequential amounts of money?

Yep...and as a way to make entrance requirements for some PRCs more sucky. :smallamused:

AslanCross
2007-08-15, 06:51 PM
I think that Wisdom represents applied learning and experience, so if you're insightful and can get the hang of things better, you would be more competent at your job than a book-smart person who doesn't know how to apply his knowledge to his tasks even if you have the same skill ranks. That's why I think Wisdom is the modifier used in the Profession skills.

As a DM I sometimes use the Profession skill as an alternative to the Knowledge skill when trying to figure out bits of information regarding say, a siege engine or other apparatus. So a guy who can say "I've worked with that, I know how how it works" is in my opinion just as knowledgeable as a guy who can say "I read about that, I know what that is."

horseboy
2007-08-15, 06:55 PM
I think that Wisdom represents applied learning and experience, so if you're insightful and can get the hang of things better, you would be more competent at your job than a book-smart person who doesn't know how to apply his knowledge to his tasks even if you have the same skill ranks. That's why I think Wisdom is the modifier used in the Profession skills.

As a DM I sometimes use the Profession skill as an alternative to the Knowledge skill when trying to figure out bits of information regarding say, a siege engine or other apparatus. So a guy who can say "I've worked with that, I know how how it works" is in my opinion just as knowledgeable as a guy who can say "I read about that, I know what that is."

Which would put plumbing as a profession skill. You'd be AMAZED at some of the things I've seen engineer customers come in and try and do with things and I've had to slap them down.

kjones
2007-08-15, 06:56 PM
AFAIC, Profession works as a quick and dirty substitution for other sorts of skills. For example, if you had Profession (Trail Guide), I might let you use those ranks for certain Survival checks. If you had Profession (Shepherd), I would add some sort of synergy with Handle Animal for sheep.

Also, it covers things that don't expressly exist as skills. Anyone who's ever run a nautical campaign will understand the usefulness of Profession (Sailor); there's no Sail or Ride (Boat) skill. Likewise, there's no skill for Cook, but one might take Profession (Chef) (or Craft (Meal)) to the same effect.

All in all, unless you have a very specific character in mind, or want to have a mechanical representation of a certain background, or need to get certain PrC's (Fatespinner comes to mind, 5 ranks in Profession (Gambler)), not terribly useful. Not useless, though. Depends on your campaign.

BCOVertigo
2007-08-15, 06:57 PM
I think that Wisdom represents applied learning and experience, so if you're insightful and can get the hang of things better, you would be more competent at your job than a book-smart person who doesn't know how to apply his knowledge to his tasks even if you have the same skill ranks. That's why I think Wisdom is the modifier used in the Profession skills.

As a DM I sometimes use the Profession skill as an alternative to the Knowledge skill when trying to figure out bits of information regarding say, a siege engine or other apparatus. So a guy who can say "I've worked with that, I know how how it works" is in my opinion just as knowledgeable as a guy who can say "I read about that, I know what that is."

Why should this be two separate skills though if they both represent learning about a topic? We have skills for knowing, and skills for doing, but for some reason we have a third skill that uses an entirely different ability and represents knowing AND doing...

Edit:

AFAIC, Profession works as a quick and dirty substitution for other sorts of skills. For example, if you had Profession (Trail Guide), I might let you use those ranks for certain Survival checks. If you had Profession (Shepherd), I would add some sort of synergy with Handle Animal for sheep.

Also, it covers things that don't expressly exist as skills. Anyone who's ever run a nautical campaign will understand the usefulness of Profession (Sailor); there's no Sail or Ride (Boat) skill. Likewise, there's no skill for Cook, but one might take Profession (Chef) (or Craft (Meal)) to the same effect.

All in all, unless you have a very specific character in mind, or want to have a mechanical representation of a certain background, or need to get certain PrC's (Fatespinner comes to mind, 5 ranks in Profession (Gambler)), not terribly useful. Not useless, though. Depends on your campaign.

This seems like a passable defense but I can't help but wonder what justification you could give a rogue as to why he can't max out profession(burglar) and profession(politician) and save a rediculous amount of skills. After all Use Rope is a skill and a Profession(sailor) would cover that, would it not?

goat
2007-08-15, 06:58 PM
Things like profession: sailor, messenger, guide, politician.

Any kind of work where you don't actually PRODUCE anything, but you are doing things. Really, they're excellent for checks on specific things that have no relevant skill or knowledge check, or as synergy bonuses for a variety of things.

TheOOB
2007-08-15, 07:00 PM
The profession skill represents all that skills that someone could conceivably take, but they can't bother making a new skill for, things like commander, sailor, siege engineer, merchant, ect ect.

As for being based off of wisdom, it seems fairly arbitrary to me, perhaps they just though they needed another WIS based skill. I assign key stats for profession based on the profession. Profession(chef)? probally wis based, profession(seamstress), probally dex based, profession(seige engineer), probally int based.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-15, 07:00 PM
Knowledge is information you've learned from a book. Craft is application of that knowledge. However, Profession represents the practical application of information in addition to knowledge you may have acquired through sources other than a reference or similar resource.

For instance, Knowledge (Engineering) lets one understand how ballistae work. Craft (Siege Weapon) lets you build a ballista. Profession (Siege Engineer) represents gleaned knowledge through actual field use.

BCOVertigo
2007-08-15, 07:06 PM
....fairly arbitrary....

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject.

tannish2
2007-08-15, 07:08 PM
RP purposes?

Riffington
2007-08-15, 07:10 PM
If you have Craft (cooking), you can make a better Risotto than someone with Profession (chef).
But if there's a table of five, and they all want different things, which all need to come out together... plus two waitresses called off today...
Well, the guy with Profession (chef) is going to be way better at handling the situation.

Nothing wrong with overlapping skills that can sometimes produce the same effect.

Lysander
2007-08-15, 07:12 PM
Knowledge = Facts
Craft = Build specific thing, by yourself, in a workshop
Profession = Broad and general competence in a field

Let's take cooking for instance...

Knowledge (Cooking) would make you a culinary expert. You could identify foods on sight, discern subtle flavors, make excellent wine recommendations. You wouldn't be able to actually make food particularly well though.

Craft (Cooking) would give you the expertise to quickly and skillfully create food. It would qualify you to work as a chef in a kitchen.

Profession (Chef) would help you manage a restaurant. You could give directions to subordinates, place orders for ingredients and equipment from vendors, handle payroll issues, etc.

What the checks would be for

(Knowledge) What is that orange glazed chicken dish with pieces of apple and mushroom?

(Craft) Quick! Make fifty blueberry pancakes!

(Profession) Congratulations on opening your restaurant! Now turn a profit.

kjones
2007-08-15, 07:14 PM
This seems like a passable defense but I can't help but wonder what justification you could give a rogue as to why he can't max out profession(burglar) and profession(politician) and save a rediculous amount of skills. After all Use Rope is a skill and a Profession(sailor) would cover that, would it not?

Good question. To me, Profession represents a more general familiarity (along with an ability to make money), while other skills represent specific specialization and talents. So, if you have 5 ranks in Profession (Sailor), you know your way around a rope, but you'd be outshined by a rope specialist (somebody with 5 ranks in Use Rope.)

Mechanically, I'd allow somebody use half (maybe a quarter or a third) of their ranks in a Profession skill towards a justifiably relevant skill check. Use Profession (Burglar) for Move Silently, Hide, or Sleight of Hand, but you won't do as well as the rogue who's maxed out each of those skills in turn. Use Profession (Politician) for Diplomacy, Bluff, or Sense Motive, but you won't do as well as the Diplomancer bard or comparable thing.

So, does half bonus seem like too much? Should it be lower?

EDIT: I like the idea, but how do you justify Craft (Food) making someone a better short-order cook than Profession (Cook)?

goat
2007-08-15, 07:17 PM
For instance, Knowledge (Engineering) lets one understand how ballistae work. Craft (Siege Weapon) lets you build a ballista. Profession (Siege Engineer) represents gleaned knowledge through actual field use.

I like this example. I'd let someone with profession(siege engineer) fix a broken ballista much more easily than anyone using knowledge(engineering), but probably not as easily as someone with craft(siege weapon). However, the person with profession(siege engineer) would know how to position and use their siege weapons much better than the crafter.

I'm sort of thinking about it sort of like the differences between a computer scientist, a computer programmer, and a computer technician. One knows why it works, one knows how to make it work, and the other knows how to fix it and use it best.

horseboy
2007-08-15, 07:21 PM
If you have Craft (cooking), you can make a better Risotto than someone with Profession (chef).
But if there's a table of five, and they all want different things, which all need to come out together... plus two waitresses called off today...
Well, the guy with Profession (chef) is going to be way better at handling the situation.

Nothing wrong with overlapping skills that can sometimes produce the same effect.

Not to mention the Profession version would give you all the fancy flourishes to the food, while Craft would give you a tasty home cooked meal. Or so I see them.

BCOVertigo
2007-08-15, 07:23 PM
I'm sort of thinking about it sort of like the differences between a computer scientist, a computer programmer, and a computer technician. One knows why it works, one knows how to make it work, and the other knows how to fix it and use it best.

That's fair I suppose, I just don't want to see it used as a catch all skill and hear the phrase "but politicians have to be able to read people!"

I think the solution is to plot out the three (or four if perform is applicable) aspects of the job in question and make sure the player understands what the skill will encompass and with what proficiency.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-15, 07:24 PM
I'm sort of thinking about it sort of like the differences between a computer scientist, a computer programmer, and a computer technician. One knows why it works, one knows how to make it work, and the other knows how to fix it and use it best.

Exactly what I was aiming at.

BCOVertigo
2007-08-15, 07:27 PM
Exactly what I was aiming at.

Hehe, your ballista example was a bit off target....

I'm sorry for that.:smallfrown:

Fax Celestis
2007-08-15, 07:31 PM
That's fair I suppose, I just don't want to see it used as a catch all skill and hear the phrase "but politicians have to be able to read people!"

Not quite: a politician without Sense Motive but high ranks of Profession (Politician) would be effective in office for as long as he wasn't lied to. Without Diplomacy, he'd have no way to get into office, as he couldn't win the hearts of the people.

BCOVertigo
2007-08-15, 07:34 PM
Not quite: a politician without Sense Motive but high ranks of Profession (Politician) would be effective in office for as long as he wasn't lied to. Without Diplomacy, he'd have no way to get into office, as he couldn't win the hearts of the people.

Hence the second part of the post. :smalltongue:

Zeful
2007-08-15, 07:53 PM
Not to mention the Profession version would give you all the fancy flourishes to the food, while Craft would give you a tasty home cooked meal. Or so I see them.

Actually Craft would be the fancy flourshes and presentation, while Profession is more a short order cook/housewife.

BCOVertigo
2007-08-15, 08:10 PM
Interesting fact, the Profession description denotes a character (a sailor in this example) as only knowing simple tasks associated with his trade and the only type of check that is listed is to determine how much you get payed, which is a fairly large abstraction of your skill in that many related tasks.

With this evidence I put forth that anything requiring a check above 10-15 probably cannot be accomplished via Profession. The RAW has no mention of using your Profession skill in anything under "generally about a week of work" and lists the type of action as not applicable. I take this to mean that the Profession skill is generally meant to be used as an off camera skill during downtime and no matter how high your ranks in it, never affords you the manner of superhuman skill that the higher DC checks of skills like Perform do. (Attracting extraplanar attention for example.)

Therefore, the Profession skill has much more use to commoners and NPC's than to adventurers, who's entire point of existing is to act out their trade ON camera. In short, Profession can get you money and not much else by RAW.

UserClone
2007-08-15, 08:12 PM
Actually, I once created a 90-year-old sorceress who was 1st-level. She was a REALLY late bloomer, so in the meantime, she had maxed out profession: milkmaid.

PaladinBoy
2007-08-15, 09:41 PM
Interesting fact, the Profession description denotes a character (a sailor in this example) as only knowing simple tasks associated with his trade and the only type of check that is listed is to determine how much you get payed, which is a fairly large abstraction of your skill in that many related tasks.

With this evidence I put forth that anything requiring a check above 10-15 probably cannot be accomplished via Profession. The RAW has no mention of using your Profession skill in anything under "generally about a week of work" and lists the type of action as not applicable. I take this to mean that the Profession skill is generally meant to be used as an off camera skill during downtime and no matter how high your ranks in it, never affords you the manner of superhuman skill that the higher DC checks of skills like Perform do. (Attracting extraplanar attention for example.)

Therefore, the Profession skill has much more use to commoners and NPC's than to adventurers, who's entire point of existing is to act out their trade ON camera. In short, Profession can get you money and not much else by RAW.

I don't quite agree. Profession would also be used for sailing a ship in general. For example, a character with 20 ranks in Use Rope could tie any shipboard knot very quickly and quite securely. He cannot, however, sail the ship through a hurricane like the captain with 20 ranks in Profession (sailor) can.

For that matter, there are non-core RAW for things such as sailing a ship through a storm, maelstrom, or any other weather-based hazard with Profession (sailor), or required Profession (siege engineer) checks in order to operate a siege weapon.

Anxe
2007-08-15, 10:52 PM
Balance and Climb. Those are some unnecessary skills.

TSGames
2007-08-15, 11:26 PM
I view profession as an NPC skill. There are NPC classes, I guess they needed a skill too.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-15, 11:45 PM
Meh. Listen/Search/Spot. Well, maybe not Search.

kjones
2007-08-15, 11:51 PM
Balance and Climb. Those are some unnecessary skills.

Spoken like a man who has clearly never needed to move quickly across a narrow area.

I tell ya, when you're on the middle of a hundred-foot rope bridge spanning a deep, rocky gorge, and you start taking fire from a dozen hidden goblin snipers, you'll be glad you're not making those balance checks untrained.

sophosbarbaros
2007-08-16, 12:04 AM
the DM in the last group I played with let my loremaster take ranks in Profession (Cataloger), My character's backstory included him working for an ultra powerful mage who had a grand library and collection of artifacts.

I used that skill often when having a chance to peruse the private libraries. If I only have an hour or two and want to find something useful those ranks would allow my character to interpret the organization and know where to look for books/info that would be useful..

Very helpful when a general info search is necessary making spells like Locate object not as helpful

Lavidor
2007-08-16, 12:55 PM
I consider Proffesion a skill made more for NPCs than PCs, as a justification on what they do with skill points and how in heck they get money.

yango
2007-08-16, 02:10 PM
I've considered house-ruling that profession skills give synergy bonuses to related skills:

5 Ranks of Profession: Sailor -> +2 to Use Rope
5 Ranks of Profession: Jeweler -> +2 to Appraise
5 Ranks of Profession: Gambler -> +2 to Bluff
etc.

Thoughts? Could it work?

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 02:58 PM
I've considered house-ruling that profession skills give synergy bonuses to related skills:

5 Ranks of Profession: Sailor -> +2 to Use Rope
5 Ranks of Profession: Jeweler -> +2 to Appraise
5 Ranks of Profession: Gambler -> +2 to Bluff
etc.

Thoughts? Could it work?

Ten months ahead of you.

http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/8482.html

dr.cello
2007-08-17, 02:42 AM
I'd probably houserule that Profession would partly entail the application of certain skills to a certain use. Profession (politician), for example, would allow a character with high ranks in diplomacy and bluff to know how to use those skills in a political sense. Profession (sailor) could entail learning how to use your abilities with Use Rope in order to actually sail a ship.

I've never especially liked just using Profession as a catch-all skill, but I can definitely see its advantages (namely, you don't have to change any class skill lists and instead of having a bunch of associated skills you can just have one vague skill that seems appropriate.) I certainly think Knowledge, Craft, and Profession are underappreciated.

Pironious
2007-08-17, 06:05 AM
Balance and Climb. Those are some unnecessary skills.

Adding to the balance thing...

An Rogue/Wizard or Arcane Trickster casts Grease on the ground you're on. Wow, flatfooted, even if you avoided falling down. And you have to make another balance check to get to safety.

Peregrine
2007-08-17, 01:34 PM
Others have explained the Profession skill much as I see it (I think Lysander's post was the first). But I still want to chime in with a few things.

Profession is the skill of running a business. It could be called Management in the modern world. Profession is the skill of organising things, knowing what's going on, managing time, managing resources, understanding the market, and dealing with people (in a professional manner rather than a Diplomacy manner -- lots of listening to the customer and the employees when you're running a business).

It's Wis-based because that really just suits better than anything else.

So, anything that conforms to the basic structure of such a business can have a Profession skill. (No, you can't take Profession (thief).) Even if you don't have ranks in profession-relevant skills, you can still manage the people who do have the skills if you've learnt to do so (but I agree that Professions should grant synergy... probably in one, DM-chosen skill). And I would see nothing wrong with making concurrent Craft and Profession checks to make money from working in your own business.

Edit: Oh, and Open Lock gets my vote for useless skill. But that may just be because of my recent experiences with it as the party rogue... first time it came into play, we were in a big hub of a room with some twenty-odd locked doors around it. At that low level, I could manage to open all the locks by taking 20... or the barbarian could just smash them all in much less time.

More recently, I kept not getting a chance to use it, because -- well, because our party has at least two pyromaniacs who thought trying to burn down the doors was a good idea, and who still hadn't learnt by the third door that they just couldn't burn through them fast. And of course, I can't unlock a door while it's on fire. So they too just got smashed open, by the guy with fire resistance.

Matthew
2007-08-17, 07:19 PM
Nah, Profession is a hole filler. Rather than lumber the game with tons of Skills, such as Sailing, Rowing, Herding, etc... they just lumped a bunch of them under Profession. There are obvious limitations to this method and we are bound to run into them.

Aquillion
2007-08-18, 11:56 AM
The reason why profession is wis-based is because it represents the accumulation of practical knowledge gained through performing (or being trained to perform, or seeing others perform) the job in question. Sure, a seamstress might need nimble fingers... but if you tried to explain the job to two people who'd never done it before, then set them to sew something, it's probably the one with the higher wisdom that would do better. (At least, I'd imagine that's the explaination. I can see changing it, though.)

As far as profession vs. knowledge goes... remember that knowledge just returns 'useful pieces of information'. Knowledge: Religion is a bunch of random factoids about religion, while Profession: Preacher is knowing how to stand in front of a pulpet and work the crowd. A high-intelligent seminary student who knew all the holy texts forwards and backwards wouldn't necessarily be any good at all trying to read it in the temple, while the greatest preacher in the world might not really be all that clear on the details of what his holy texts actually say (he's just good at pounding on them, and can make his voice boom.)

Profession is practical, real-world knowledge as it relates to doing a job. Most of the NPCs in the world probably all their skill points in one profession or another. And although it requires some DM interpretation, it's easy to see how some of those professions could be useful in an adventure or could be substituted for more specific adventurer skills... profession: preacher could make a nice substitute for Diplomacy in many circumstances, say, while you could require profession: sailor checks to fight without penalty on a turbulent ship (or maybe just allow them as a substitute for balance checks.) If the player has Profession: Gambler, they could challenge the Lawful Evil BBEG to a game of cards over some McGuffin, and use their skill as a gambler to increase their chances of winning ("There's no need for us to fight over this. Let's settle it like civilized men... five card draw, and the winner keeps the ring.") There's lots of ways to use professional skills if the players get creative with it.

dr.cello
2007-08-18, 05:17 PM
Your description of 'profession: preacher' really sounds more like Diplomacy (or possibly Intimidate) than anything.