4th edition!

[YPU]

i YPU, am the first to post the release date of 4th edition.

At Gen Con this week, we announced that the 4th Edition of the Dungeons & Dragons game will debut in May 2008.

entire article
I always thought we should have a magazine called “&”. After all, it worked so well for Dungeon and Dragon that it just seemed to me that we were losing an opportunity to make use of the bit that brings it all together. So, until we figure out what to actually do with that recognizable little ampersand, I’m going to use it as the identifier for my regular feature here at D&D Insider.

I’m Bill Slavicsek. I’ve been the R&D Director for the Dungeons & Dragons game since Wizards of the Coast acquired the company. Before that, I was a Creative Director and Game Designer with TSR, Inc. And way back when, I ran the creative portions of West End Games. Over the years, I’ve worked on roleplaying games, board games, computer games, miniatures games, novels, and nonfiction books of all kinds, and you can see my work on everything from Star Wars to d20 Modern to D&D. I’m going to use this space to regularly talk to you about things related to D&D from the unique perspective of my Director’s chair here at WotC. Let’s start out by talking about 4th Edition D&D and D&D Insider.

At Gen Con this week, we announced that the 4th Edition of the Dungeons & Dragons game will debut in May 2008. We also announced that for the first time, the D&D game would consist of four integral and integrated parts. In addition to the physical products—the core rulebooks, supplements, adventures, miniatures, and accessories—the D&D experience would be enhanced by robust Community features (powered by Gleemax.com), a fully integrated Organized Play program that will offer benefits to convention and home play alike, and the digital initiative we’re calling D&D Insider.

Why 4th Edition and why now? Because the time was right. My R&D team has been watching the play environment since the release of the 3.5 rules, listening to what you, the players, have been telling us. Two years ago, I assembled a team of designers, led by Rob Heinsoo, Andy Collins, and James Wyatt, to review all the data we’ve been collecting and see if we could make the d20 Game System (the engine that powers the D&D game) better, more intuitive, and more fun. When I saw the first expressions of that effort, I knew we could make D&D better, stronger, faster, more fun. We could rebuild it. We could take the d20 Game System we all know and love and rocket it to the next level.

At the same time, we also began imagining a robust and exciting suite of digital features that could enhance and complement the roleplaying game. It became clear to me that we had two winning directions that would be even more powerful when we combined them, and that’s when we made the decision to move forward with D&D 4th Edition.

The future (only nine months away!) contains the same D&D we all play on a regular basis. It’s still going to be a tabletop roleplaying game. It’s still set in a medieval fantasy world of magic and monsters. It’s still the d20 Game System. But the rulebooks appear more vibrant, more visually stunning, and much easier to use. The game mechanics have been amped up to eliminate the game-stoppers, accentuate the fun factors, and make play faster and more exciting. In the future (now only eight months, 29 days, 23 hours, and 50 minutes from now!) D&D Insider provides its members with immediate access to Dragon Magazine and Dungeon Magazine, to enhanced and expanded content tied to the newest physical book products, to an amazing suite of digital tools to make Dungeon Master preparation and campaign management easier to handle, to a Character Creator that provides not only an interactive character sheet but a visualizer that lets you determine the exact look of the characters you create—and, D&D Insider provides a digital D&D Game Table that turns the Internet into your kitchen table. This amazing application, which we’ll talk more about as the weeks go on, allows you to supplement your face-to-face gaming 24/7, helps you find a group to game with if you don’t happen to have a face-to-face group, or lets you hook up with gaming buddies who long ago scattered to the four winds. Take a look at the prototype movie we showed at Gen Con to get a first taste of the D&D Game Table.

Wow. There’s a lot more that I want to share with you, but I’ve already exceeded my allotted word count for this first column. We’ll pick this up next time, when I describe a typical day in (and reveal a few secrets about) the life of an R&D Director—specifically, this R&D Director.

[BCOVertigo]

Article detailing a playtest session.
Our staff is hard at work playtesting 4th Edition, and each week, we’ll give you a look inside one of our very own D&D games. These articles include plenty of homebrewed material that the players and DMs have made up to suit their own campaigns, just like your games, but we’ll be sure to point out when they’re stretching their creative muscles.

Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You’re getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to [email protected].

June 28th, Thursday Night, Wizards Conference Room (Wayne Manor).
Campaign Arc: Castle Smoulderthorn
DM: Dave Noonan
Players: Bruce Cordell (yours truly), Richard Baker, Logan Bonner, and Toby Latin

Before we begin play, another player is giving Rich grief about one of Rich’s character’s abilities that grants the rest of us a blanket +2 to saves; it just ain’t sexy. Rich says something like, “I don’t know, I doubt I’ll use it that much, but who knows, maybe everyone in the party will get entangled.”

Sure enough, not 10 minutes later this fire-crazed flame priest has entangled half the party with fire snakes! Rich throws up his +2 to saves and, voila, at least two of us get free immediately. I guess that power isn’t so corner case after all.

In my case, I’ve thrown together a “psion.” It’s because prior to the shift to the new playtest rules, I was playing a psion elan named Infandous. You wonder, why the scare quotes? Well, just between you and me, updated-Infandous-the-psion is actually a wizard with the serial numbers filed off.

Anyhow, I missed the last few sessions, so I’m slightly confused when the session begins—apparently the group is still breathing hard from their last session, not even rested or healed, when we hear a shuffle of footsteps from behind a set of double doors. The doors aren’t completely closed, so I “mentally” whip them open from across the room.

Coming down the hallway is a troop of azer, some sort of burning serpent, and the flame priest I mentioned earlier. And it was a fight! And . . . we won. Without really breaking a sweat, either, truth be told.

Emboldened, we advanced down that hallway now littered with azer remains and ash, took a right, and pretty quickly found a dusty lintel inscribed with the words: Tomb of the Black Host.

“Sounds like someplace loot is stored,” said Infandous, eager to expand his repertoire of cool equipment. A little more discussion, and we pushed on the door. It opened . . .

And Dave spent nearly 10 minutes constructing (using Dungeon Tiles!) an ominous, crypt-lined ruin complete with three golden sarcophagi that emanated magic. Dave did a good job laying out the floor plan of the room. Such a good job that we lingered in the door looking into the shadow-lined mausoleum for a minute, then, another . . . then decided as a group that, loot or no loot, perhaps it would be better to let whatever lay in the deathly quite of the tomb alone. So, we closed the door and continued down the main hallway.

Sorry, Dave.

On the subject of classes.
The Design & Development article series premiered on the D&D website back in September 2005, and has been a staple ever since. With the approach of 4th Edition, and our designers and developers focused on the new edition, this column will be the primary vehicle for 4th Edition coverage. We’ll not only give you peeks at what’s forthcoming, but also the “how” and “why.”

Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You’re getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to [email protected].

Here’s a highly probable conversation lifted from the future, one year from today, as two players who’ve just met at a convention discuss their PC choices for their upcoming D&D game.

“I’m playing a 3rd-level human fighter named Graelar.”

“Cool. Is he weapon and shield or two-hander?”

“He’s sword and board, man.”

“Longsword?”

“Yeah. I thought about going high Con and using a hammer, but I wanted to start with the chance to make a couple of attacks, so I’m using rain of blows as my good weapon attack, and I went with high Wis so that I can switch to the better oppy powers later.”

“My elf fighter uses a spear. I like the speed and the option to go past AC. But you’ve got the fighter covered. I’ll play a halfling rogue.”

The names and destinations of the powers mentioned above might have changed by the time the game is in your hands. What won’t change is that fighters care about which weapons they use much more than other characters. Other character classes have specific weapons and weapon types that they tend to rely on while still maintaining access to a larger chunk of the weapon chart. The fighter is the only current 4th Edition class with capabilities that depend on the weapon they have chosen to train the most with. Even at 1st level, a fighter who uses an axe has a different power selection than a fighter who relies on a flail or a rapier or a pick. In the long run, fighters can diversify and master powers related to a few different weapons, but most will opt to focus on the weapon that suits their personal style, helps their interactions with the rest of the PCs in the group, and carries all the magical oomph they’ve managed to acquire.

Many fighters will opt for swords. Swords have the most flexible assortment of powers. In a fighter’s hands, the longsword is the queen of the battlefield and the greatsword is the queen’s executioner. But each of the other significant melee weapons offers the fighter unique advantages and opportunities. For the first time, you’ll be able to say “I’m an axe fighter” or “I’m a flail fighter” and that will mean something cool.

Race


The Design & Development article series premiered on the D&D website back in September 2005, and has been a staple ever since. With the approach of 4th Edition, and our designers and developers focused on the new edition, this column will be the primary vehicle for 4th Edition coverage. We’ll not only give you peeks at what’s forthcoming, but also the “how” and “why.”

Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You’re getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to [email protected].

Set the wayback machine to May of 2004!

Even at that point, we knew 4th Edition was coming, though official work on it wouldn’t start for another year. At the time, the design team used to meet regularly in what we jokingly called the “Design Cabal.” And one day, in May ’04, we started kicking around the question of how many slices of pie a D&D character should consist of, and how big each piece should be.

In 3rd Edition, class and magic items were two big pieces of the PC pie. Race was important at 1st level, but by the time you hit 20th, there was rarely much to distinguish a dwarf fighter from a half-orc fighter. The difference between a +2 here and a +2 over there was drowned out by the huge bonuses from magic items and character level—it didn’t matter any more.

We wanted race to matter all the way up through a character’s career. We wanted there to be some difference between two characters of different races, all other things being equal. We had tried out mechanics like the racial paragons in Unearthed Arcana and the racial substitution levels in the Races of . . . series of books, and we liked the results.

In May of 2004, we started kicking around ideas like “the 20-level race.” In a 20-level race, at each level you gained, you’d get not only new class features, but also new racial qualities. Your race might predetermine which ability scores you increased at some levels, so a dwarf’s Constitution would always have an edge over characters of other races. It would grant you new special abilities as you advanced in level, always appropriate to your level, of course.

One key advantage we saw to this system was that it made it much easier to find room for new races without resorting to the kludgy and awkward mechanic of level adjustments. If we spread the tasty magical abilities of drow out through their levels, they could start at 1st level on a par with other character races. Races like the githyanki already anticipated some of that idea by granting new spell-like abilities at higher levels.

Well, over the next few years, things changed, as things are wont to do. We blew the game out to thirty levels, but put your most significant racial choices in the first ten. Above that, other choices started to crowd out room for special abilities coming from your race.

In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level—dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf’s inspiring presence, and so on. As you go up levels, you can take racial feats to make those abilities even more exciting and gain new capabilities tied to your race. You can also take race-specific powers built into your class, which accomplish a lot of what racial substitution levels used to do: a dwarf fighter with the friend of earth power can do something that other 10th-level fighters just can’t do.

The rules have changed a lot since that first idea of the 20-level race, but they still serve the same purpose: to make sure that your race stays not just relevant but actually important all the way up through thirty levels of adventure.

More on the way for those who can't get in yet.

[ranger89]

Sweet. I got the video downloading now. :smallcool:

This unexpected 4e mania today has been most entertaining. :smallsmile:

Ding! Download complete. Time to watch this teaser...

[AlterForm]

I"m printscreening the https, pics on the way

[Porthos]

BTW:: the https really does seem to be helping. I strongly suggest people try it and see if it works for them. :smallsmile:

[AlterForm]

BTW:: the https really does seem to be helping. I strongly suggest people try it and see if it woeks for them. :smallsmile:

I think people are figuring it out...my load time is getting bad.

[YPU]

do note the S stands for safe, as in being not safe, lack all securety if anybody was to plant a virus on the site now our pc's are dead.

the video makes fun of the heavy rules of 3.5 part of it anyway.

[Porthos]

I think people are figuring it out...my load time is getting bad.

The fact that I'm currently sucking down the avi at 123 KB/s can't be helping.

I am unrepentant, however! :smalltongue:

[ranger89]

Don't bother with the teaser for now. While it's strangely entertaining, it doesn't do anything more than tease. :smallannoyed:

[AlterForm]

http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/DnD%204e%20https/


That should let you into the album I stuck 'em in...

my load time is dead now, so no more images from me, and this is much faster than adding a bunch of image tags

[YPU]

Don't bother with the teaser for now. While it's strangely entertaining, it doesn't do anything more than tease. :smallannoyed:
the fact also is, my pc is only downloading the top half of the teaser, odd. it does give you a first vieuw at people playing it, including the books.

[kpenguin]

http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/DnD%204e%20https/


That should let you into the album I stuck 'em in...

my load time is dead now, and this is much faster than adding a bunch of image tags

The album's private. I can't access it.

[Ichneumon]

Strange, I somehow managed to acces the old style homepage...

EDIT: The first previews seem great. Weapon specialisation for fighters does seem good and more power to races too.

[Malek]

The webpage is standing - I suggest you stard with "Design Development: Class" article - it has most interesting info so far.

[Porthos]

Oh. My.

I think I need to make a Sanity Check after the first few seconds of that teaser.... :smalleek:

The horror.... The horror.

You all will understand when you see it.... :smalleek:

[Tokiko Mima]

This was on the Dragon page when I brought it up.

Source: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dred/20070816a

Welcome to Dragon
by Bart Carroll and Chris Thomasson
08/16/2007
Dragon Editorial Archive



For the past few years I’ve had the extreme privilege to serve as the D&D website producer. In fact, back in 1999 (after a stint teaching abroad) I moved to Seattle with the specific intention of one day working for Wizards of the Coast, the company producing both games I slavishly followed: Magic: the Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons. For several years, however, I first toiled in the salt mines of Microsoft, producing websites and online content for their game studios… well, actually it was a pretty copasetic environment there: soda was free, and at the time I thought it the height of good fortune to be paid to play video games on the clock. That is, until I finally landed a gig within WotC’s Online Media department in 2004, and have come to realize the true height of good fortune is playtesting D&D on the clock.

When I first took over as producer for the D&D website, the directives were clear—online content should help support and promote the product releases. This was, after all, a marketing site first and foremost (though I did try to sneak in whatever “extra” content I could, taking pride in shepherding through the revised Tomb of Horrors and White Plume Mountain, among others).

I say “was” a marketing website in the past tense. We’ve come to a new edition of the game, and thus to a new iteration of the website. Some things will remain the same. There will still be a marketing component, including the characters sheets, art galleries, Sage Advice answers, In the Works previews… and on, and on. In one sense, we’re not losing the tools or online content you’ve come to know and expect.

A Brief Look Back...
A little trip in the Wayback Machine shows just how far the D&D website has grown since its inception back in 2000, when it offered (appropriately enough) 3rd Edition previews. And for a look back at Wizards of the Coast’s website, check out the even earlier 1996 version. Gotta love those spinning, spinning coins…

Past producers of the website have included Sue Cook, Julia Martin, and industry vet Steve Winter on the D&D Minis side, and I’d like to thank them for the work they’ve put into the online foundation that we’ve now built into the current website. Before I sign off, I’d also like to point out one more individual; through all of D&D’s producers, the site itself has always been in the hands of a single developer: Mark Jindra, who continues to grumble and rant, and always come up the best solutions for the website in the end.


At the same time, we’re also quite pleased to be expanding—greatly—our online content beyond a robust marketing site. The website team itself has grown. Dragon and Dungeon magazines have arrived at their new online venue, with columns and features to start rolling out in October. And while D&D Insider—the name we’ve now given to the subscription part of the D&D website—will encompass the marketing and magazine content, there’s another online face as well.

In the coming months, look for the Gleemax.com/DnD site to serve as a kind of hub for community content. This will include not just the message boards, but also blogs from individual members of R&D (as well as for columns, serving as their talk-back and commentary pages), D&D wikis, and even a repository for fan-generated content. Plus, we’re quite excited about some of the D&D Insider features that will live on the Gleemax side, including expansive new options for storing character and campaign information. For more on what’s in the works, check out part two of our inaugural editorial.

The website is dead! Long live the website!

--Bart Carroll

So What’s Next?

If you read Bart’s editorial, you know have a better idea where we've been and an inkling of the community features we'll be showcasing. There's a lot more to show, and you’ll just have to come back from time to time and see what’s up for yourself. But we would be poor hosts if we didn’t at least offer a taste of what’s to come.

Bart already told you about the Gleemax/DnD site. We’re really excited about putting Gleemax’s functionality to the test. “But what,” you ask, “is this log-in thing? Why am I doing it? What does it mean?” Here’s the plan:

Sometime in the spring, when all of D&D Insider’s digital components go live, we’ll begin charging a monthly subscription fee to access some of our online content. We don’t have final pricing details ready to share, but one subscription fee will cover all aspects of D&D Insider, including more than two print issues’ worth of editorial content each month. You’ll get access to the amazing set of tools D&D Insider will provide—the D&D Game Table, the D&D Character Creator, and the Dungeon Master’s Toolkit, details of which will be unveiled in the coming months. You’ll also get more of the great content you’ve come to expect from Dragon and Dungeon over the past umpteen-dozen years.

In the meantime, we want to start showing you the type of editorial content you’ll get for your money, and help you understand what constitutes subscription-level content (that is, something you need an account to access). And that’s where the current log-in system fits in.

Over these next few months, we’ll be keeping an eye on the things you like and don’t like, making adjustments based on your feedback. Feel free to drop us a line at [email protected] or post on the new Dragon and Dungeon forum. Your voice will help shape future content.

Dungeon and Dragon magazines are industry titans, with storied histories. As the D&D game has evolved, so too have the magazines. Our goal going forward is to provide you with great content plus much more utility than print magazines can allow. Don’t believe me? Heck, both Chris Perkins and I started our careers in the industry on these magazines. And speaking for myself, I wouldn’t be walking this path again if I didn’t think it was worth it, or if I didn’t think we couldn’t do an even better job this time around. But I’m about as giddy as this kid when I think about what’s coming.

Which leads me to the next few months. From now to the 4th Edition launch, Dragon is going to give you the latest 4th Edition developments. We’ve revamped the Design & Development column, which has run on the site now for some time, and we’re using it to show you now not only what is coming, but why and how. Several times each week, we’ll give a detailed look at one specific part of the new system, with commentary by the folks doing the design and development of the game. At the same time, Dragon will continue to bring you favorites such as Ecology articles, campaign setting support, and other great content written, as always, by members of the D&D community. You’ll see this in Dragon #360, which, among other things, includes a spectacular 360-degree panoramic view of the D&D game.

Need adventures? Check out the new Dungeon pages for a sneak peek at issue #151, which also comes out in October. This issue heralds the return of Dungeoncraft. James Wyatt—D&D game designer, co-author of the Eberron Campaign Setting, and Eberron novelist—takes over as the new master of Dungeoncraft, and I can’t want to show what he’s up to.

Then there’s the comics, the free maps, Sage Advice, all the stuff Bart already talked about, and more I'm probably forgetting. Every Monday we’ll have a weekly update to tell you what’s in store for D&D Insider in the coming week, as well as new editorial content every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. We’ll also use these newfangled tubes we call the “Interweb” to bring a new spin to classic D&D content. We’re looking at more innovative ways to leverage the technology at our disposal and bring your game to new heights of cool.

So stick around. We’re just getting started here, and I can’t wait to show you what we’re gonna do next.

--Chris Thomasson

[Ichneumon]

Oh. My.

I think I need to make a Sanity Check after the first few seconds of that teaser.... :smalleek:

The horror.... The horror.

You all will understand when you see it.... :smalleek:

please tell me, I can't open it.

[Matthew]

Article detailing a playtest session.
Our staff is hard at work playtesting 4th Edition, and each week, we’ll give you a look inside one of our very own D&D games. These articles include plenty of homebrewed material that the players and DMs have made up to suit their own campaigns, just like your games, but we’ll be sure to point out when they’re stretching their creative muscles.

Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You’re getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to [email protected].

June 28th, Thursday Night, Wizards Conference Room (Wayne Manor).
Campaign Arc: Castle Smoulderthorn
DM: Dave Noonan
Players: Bruce Cordell (yours truly), Richard Baker, Logan Bonner, and Toby Latin

Before we begin play, another player is giving Rich grief about one of Rich’s character’s abilities that grants the rest of us a blanket +2 to saves; it just ain’t sexy. Rich says something like, “I don’t know, I doubt I’ll use it that much, but who knows, maybe everyone in the party will get entangled.”

Sure enough, not 10 minutes later this fire-crazed flame priest has entangled half the party with fire snakes! Rich throws up his +2 to saves and, voila, at least two of us get free immediately. I guess that power isn’t so corner case after all.

In my case, I’ve thrown together a “psion.” It’s because prior to the shift to the new playtest rules, I was playing a psion elan named Infandous. You wonder, why the scare quotes? Well, just between you and me, updated-Infandous-the-psion is actually a wizard with the serial numbers filed off.

Anyhow, I missed the last few sessions, so I’m slightly confused when the session begins—apparently the group is still breathing hard from their last session, not even rested or healed, when we hear a shuffle of footsteps from behind a set of double doors. The doors aren’t completely closed, so I “mentally” whip them open from across the room.

Coming down the hallway is a troop of azer, some sort of burning serpent, and the flame priest I mentioned earlier. And it was a fight! And . . . we won. Without really breaking a sweat, either, truth be told.

Emboldened, we advanced down that hallway now littered with azer remains and ash, took a right, and pretty quickly found a dusty lintel inscribed with the words: Tomb of the Black Host.

“Sounds like someplace loot is stored,” said Infandous, eager to expand his repertoire of cool equipment. A little more discussion, and we pushed on the door. It opened . . .

And Dave spent nearly 10 minutes constructing (using Dungeon Tiles!) an ominous, crypt-lined ruin complete with three golden sarcophagi that emanated magic. Dave did a good job laying out the floor plan of the room. Such a good job that we lingered in the door looking into the shadow-lined mausoleum for a minute, then, another . . . then decided as a group that, loot or no loot, perhaps it would be better to let whatever lay in the deathly quite of the tomb alone. So, we closed the door and continued down the main hallway.

Sorry, Dave.

On the subject of classes.
The Design & Development article series premiered on the D&D website back in September 2005, and has been a staple ever since. With the approach of 4th Edition, and our designers and developers focused on the new edition, this column will be the primary vehicle for 4th Edition coverage. We’ll not only give you peeks at what’s forthcoming, but also the “how” and “why.”

Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You’re getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to [email protected].

Here’s a highly probable conversation lifted from the future, one year from today, as two players who’ve just met at a convention discuss their PC choices for their upcoming D&D game.

“I’m playing a 3rd-level human fighter named Graelar.”

“Cool. Is he weapon and shield or two-hander?”

“He’s sword and board, man.”

“Longsword?”

“Yeah. I thought about going high Con and using a hammer, but I wanted to start with the chance to make a couple of attacks, so I’m using rain of blows as my good weapon attack, and I went with high Wis so that I can switch to the better oppy powers later.”

“My elf fighter uses a spear. I like the speed and the option to go past AC. But you’ve got the fighter covered. I’ll play a halfling rogue.”

The names and destinations of the powers mentioned above might have changed by the time the game is in your hands. What won’t change is that fighters care about which weapons they use much more than other characters. Other character classes have specific weapons and weapon types that they tend to rely on while still maintaining access to a larger chunk of the weapon chart. The fighter is the only current 4th Edition class with capabilities that depend on the weapon they have chosen to train the most with. Even at 1st level, a fighter who uses an axe has a different power selection than a fighter who relies on a flail or a rapier or a pick. In the long run, fighters can diversify and master powers related to a few different weapons, but most will opt to focus on the weapon that suits their personal style, helps their interactions with the rest of the PCs in the group, and carries all the magical oomph they’ve managed to acquire.

Many fighters will opt for swords. Swords have the most flexible assortment of powers. In a fighter’s hands, the longsword is the queen of the battlefield and the greatsword is the queen’s executioner. But each of the other significant melee weapons offers the fighter unique advantages and opportunities. For the first time, you’ll be able to say “I’m an axe fighter” or “I’m a flail fighter” and that will mean something cool.

Race


The Design & Development article series premiered on the D&D website back in September 2005, and has been a staple ever since. With the approach of 4th Edition, and our designers and developers focused on the new edition, this column will be the primary vehicle for 4th Edition coverage. We’ll not only give you peeks at what’s forthcoming, but also the “how” and “why.”

Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You’re getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to [email protected].

Set the wayback machine to May of 2004!

Even at that point, we knew 4th Edition was coming, though official work on it wouldn’t start for another year. At the time, the design team used to meet regularly in what we jokingly called the “Design Cabal.” And one day, in May ’04, we started kicking around the question of how many slices of pie a D&D character should consist of, and how big each piece should be.

In 3rd Edition, class and magic items were two big pieces of the PC pie. Race was important at 1st level, but by the time you hit 20th, there was rarely much to distinguish a dwarf fighter from a half-orc fighter. The difference between a +2 here and a +2 over there was drowned out by the huge bonuses from magic items and character level—it didn’t matter any more.

We wanted race to matter all the way up through a character’s career. We wanted there to be some difference between two characters of different races, all other things being equal. We had tried out mechanics like the racial paragons in Unearthed Arcana and the racial substitution levels in the Races of . . . series of books, and we liked the results.

In May of 2004, we started kicking around ideas like “the 20-level race.” In a 20-level race, at each level you gained, you’d get not only new class features, but also new racial qualities. Your race might predetermine which ability scores you increased at some levels, so a dwarf’s Constitution would always have an edge over characters of other races. It would grant you new special abilities as you advanced in level, always appropriate to your level, of course.

One key advantage we saw to this system was that it made it much easier to find room for new races without resorting to the kludgy and awkward mechanic of level adjustments. If we spread the tasty magical abilities of drow out through their levels, they could start at 1st level on a par with other character races. Races like the githyanki already anticipated some of that idea by granting new spell-like abilities at higher levels.

Well, over the next few years, things changed, as things are wont to do. We blew the game out to thirty levels, but put your most significant racial choices in the first ten. Above that, other choices started to crowd out room for special abilities coming from your race.

In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level—dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf’s inspiring presence, and so on. As you go up levels, you can take racial feats to make those abilities even more exciting and gain new capabilities tied to your race. You can also take race-specific powers built into your class, which accomplish a lot of what racial substitution levels used to do: a dwarf fighter with the friend of earth power can do something that other 10th-level fighters just can’t do.

The rules have changed a lot since that first idea of the 20-level race, but they still serve the same purpose: to make sure that your race stays not just relevant but actually important all the way up through thirty levels of adventure.

More on the way for those who can't get in yet.
Thanks for the information. Sounds gash so far, but at least the Fighter survived.

[AlterForm]

http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/DnD%204e%20https/

Album should be public now, sorry bout that.

[Porthos]

Dragon Mag #360 Preview:


Welcome to the future home of Dragon Magazine! We can’t wait until October to show you issue #360, but here’s a little taste of what you can look forward to:


Dungeons & Dragons 360
By Andy Collins, Rob Heinsoo, and James Wyatt

For thirty-three years, the D&D game has led the fantasy hobby gaming scene, and 4th Edition is taking the game in places its creators never dreamed. The 4th Edition lead design team speaks up in this article, sharing their sources of inspiration from editions past, as they look forward to the future.


The Ecology of the Death Knight
By Matthew Sernett

These foul undead have haunted many a campaign. Now learn their dark origin, and the source of their fell power.


Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Graz’zt
By James Jacobs
The Dark Prince revealed! Explore the dark secrets of the demon prince of seduction.


Plus Dragons of Eberron coverage, weekly Design & Development updates, and more!

No mention of OotS.... :smallfrown:

[Porthos]

please tell me, I can't open it.

Let's just say that it opens up with Bad Seventies Music, with a 1e ADnD game going on in the background.... :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:

[Kioran]

So Fighters will now Fight ToB-style, with the styles wrapped into the weapons, and Races will be a much more limiting and determining factor. Well, goodbye to unique characters......Walking of the trodden path will incur much more splinters in your soles now.
Apart from me not quite seeing where ToB-Mechanics "simplify" or "streamline" the system.....

[Porthos]

From the Race article:


In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level—dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf’s inspiring presence, and so on.

For some reason, that really stands out to me! :smalleek:

[Dhavaer]

The 20th level races thing sounded interesting to me; it's something I'd considered before. I wonder how they'll work it.

[Bosh]

They're going ToB on the fighters, good. I'm looking forward to see what they do with the poor poor little monks. What I'd like to see is fighters being a more specialized/tactical fighting class and barbarians being a good simple class that'd be good to hand to a newbie.

Now let's see if they give full casting the good hard nerfing it needs.

What I'll do personally is check out the char-op boards a week after release. If there's 100 cheese builds I won't buy 4e, if there isn't too much broken stuff that the char-op regulars can find I'll buy the works. With the resources that Hasbro has at its disposal and the existance of a wonderful pool of resources for beta testing (the Char-Op board regulars) if 4e comes out anywhere near as unbalanced as a lot of recent supplements (Complete Champion) etc. I'm not going to bother. But with the information they've posted, so far so good.

[Kioran]

In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level—dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf’s inspiring presence, and so on.

And it also makes your race-choice half a class choice or even more and could potentially undo one of 3rd Editions greatest advantages. Besides, "Inspiring Presence"? If I wanted even more hard-wired Team-Factor, Ißd buy the Hungarian FPS of the same name......

[Ichneumon]

Somehow I am not that positive about having 30 levels...

[YPU]

they seem to have worked it all out already, yet the release is so far away. lets hope all that time will be spend testing, to make sure there is balance like we never have seen before.

[Matthew]

I'm getting a vibe that the Art seems better. It's a bit more towards 'realism'. Am I mistaken?

[Tellah]

Well, we know that dwarves, elves and half-elves are sticking around. That leaves half-orcs and gnomes as candidates for the chopping block.

Fair well, my gnomie homies...

[ranger89]

Just from what little info we were given about 4e, I'm already seriously intrigued by it. Time will tell though.

[kpenguin]

Well, we know that dwarves, elves and half-elves are sticking around. That leaves half-orcs and gnomes as candidates for the chopping block.

Fair well, my gnomie homies...

I'm for cutting half-orcs. They didn't have 'em as a PC race in 2nd Ed. and they shouldn't have 'em now. Also, I'm all in favor of giving gnomes back their +2 to Int and -2 to Wis.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm getting a vibe that the Art seems better. It's a bit more towards 'realism'. Am I mistaken?

You're not. It looks like they're paying actual money for it.

[Matthew]

Huzzah! Let's hope that such promise is fulfilled.

[Jewish_Joke]

Yeah, the art we're seeing doesn't look any more "real". The weapons and armour that the dwarf seems to be using dont seem at all practical. It's a lot more like the art of WoW, which is disappointing. Everybody knows that armour with square edges doesn't work! :smallmad:

[Jarlax]

it seems like there going in a kind of TOB direction with fighters but they don't look like they will have maneuvers in the same way as TOB, its more like for a fighter every weapon will have bonus abilities they can use so choosing what weapon you play with will be a big deal.

i like the idea that spears somehow ignore AC and it also looks like you need prerequisite stats for either A) certain weapons or B) certain Powers related to Weapons.

i definitely like the idea of a 20-level race system but the end of the article seems to talk like they scrapped that idea for a different system that gives you powers at level 1 and feeds you more abilities through additional feats and something similar to racial substitution levels in all core classes. which is also alright except it might mean they went back to Level adjustments which would be a pity, because i know too many new players who ruin their PC by taking a +5LA and only 1 level of a actual class.

[Thrivol]

After seeing the video and reading some stuff, we can tell this much.


Weapon choices are much more important.

Classes go up to 30.

Races give added benefits depending on level.

There will be online tools (for a fee), but they will not be required.

Simpler rules (easier grapple rules, hopefully).


EDIT: I am going to try and upload the trailer, for those who have not seen it.

[Matthew]

Yeah, the art we're seeing doesn't look any more "real". The weapons and armour that the dwarf seems to be using dont seem at all practical. It's a lot more like the art of WoW, which is disappointing. Everybody knows that armour with square edges doesn't work! :smallmad:

I meant less cartoony, not more practical!

[Kurald Galain]

Could you please give us a link to that video? I was going to read the other thread but it grew to a zillion posts in the past half-hour so I'd prefer a summary if somebody has one. Sorry if this sounds lazy :smallbiggrin:

[Thrivol]

Could you please give us a link to that video? I was going to read the other thread but it grew to a zillion posts in the past half-hour so I'd prefer a summary if somebody has one. Sorry if this sounds lazy :smallbiggrin:

I don't have a link to it sorry. It doesn't show much, however, besides a small glimpse at the online tools.

[CabbageTheif]

no, lazyness wont have anything to do with it. even if you did try to watch it yourself right now you wopuld have problems. i am finding that so many people arre freakin bout the 4th edition that the website is being swamped.

i'm upset that all of the links i had to downloads are gone!

but yeah, if anyone can get through and find the video could you post it here to make it easier. its not on youtube yet,, chacked already.

[rwald]

I've posted a torrent of the main articles and the video at Chaos Wasteland; go to http://cw.enlightning.de:6969/stats.html?info_hash=6455bdea4c06c4583302c452ed036 3b06447a6e0

[ranger89]

Well, we know that dwarves, elves and half-elves are sticking around. That leaves half-orcs and gnomes as candidates for the chopping block.

Fair well, my gnomie homies...

And how do we know that? I read an article earlier today that hinted at a 3e base race being removed but I can't find it now. Thanks in advance for any extra info.

[Skyserpent]

I dunno about you guys, but I'm stoked, psyched, and other old terms from the mid-nineties that denote excitement.

I'm confident about this. This is gonna be bitchin'

:smallbiggrin:

[Fixer]

I am on dialup and cannot access the Wizards site. It is timing out. :(

I am hoping someone can paraphrase the differences.

[Thrivol]

Hey guys,

I have the teaser for the video uploading to YouTube right now. It'll be there in a minute.

[brian c]

I am on dialup and cannot access the Wizards site. It is timing out. :(

I am hoping someone can paraphrase the differences.

It's not because of your dialup, the site isn't responding. I guess they didn't anticipate quite this much traffic

[AlterForm]

Teaser vid, for those interested (http://youtube.com/watch?v=QLeL-qYMh4o)

[Stormcrow]

I liked what I read about the new online tools and I particularly liked that class article. Its allways been a pet peeve of mine that you can't really use your weapons as they should be. Like... spears... If you've seen Hero for example there is a very specifc fighting style there. Not like... Jab, Jab Jab.

I hope 4e keeps up the good work.

[Skyserpent]

Level Adjustment mechanics are apparently going out the window too

also: Book of Nine Swords combat system might come in, but i'm hoping for a fix to the Shopping List style Magic Selection

also: According to the D&D Podcast they plan on overhauling the familiar system. Which would be awesome, since familiars kinda suck right now

[Thrivol]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QLeL-qYMh4o

This one wasn't uploaded by me.

[Matthew]

Bypassing Armour, though? Doesn't seem very 'specifically' Spear like to me.

[Zaruthustran]

I'm looking forward to it. That bit on classes and weapon-specific fighting styles sounds very cool. I hope sword & board finally gets some love.

[Matthew]

That Teaser Trailer sucked, but hilariously it made 3e look no better than 2e, at least to my mind. What was with the 1989 Music, though? That should have been Metal or Rock or something. Just shows how pants the current Wizards staff were in 1989.. and what was with that dodgy accent guy?

[Thrivol]

That Trailer sucked, but hilariously made 3e look no better than 2e, at least to my mind. What was with the 1989 Music, though? That should have been Metal or rock or something. Just shows how pants Wizards were in 1989.
Yes, well, the trailer was just to show how there are problems with 3.5e, and how 4th edition will have new features but will still stay the same basic game.

[Matthew]

Yeah, I meant in the context of their advertising campaign, which was look how much X is better than Y. Now they are saying X and Y both sucked.

[Zaruthustran]

Well, yeah. That's the nature of incrementally improving a product. Y improves on X. Z improves on Y.

What, did you expect them NOT to say that 4E is better than 3E???

:)

[Matthew]

I didn't expect them to say "2e was too slow and 3e was too slow, maybe slower". Honestly, I expected something better than that video. Maybe, you know, something about 4e (aside from, "it's faster").

(Did anyone else notice that the 2e guys were playing with First Quest Character Cards?)

[AlterForm]

Guys, have I understood/done something wrong as to Youtube's tags? Those are the things that should pull up the video if I search for them, yes?

[Aximili]

Pretty lousy teaser wasn't it?

[Matthew]

Yep, it sucked to say the least. What was going on with that accent?

[Aximili]

I was under the impression that it was an intentional reference to something. Just couldn't guess what =P

[Matthew]

?! Is that your gut instinct or just some cultural reference I am missing?

[SpiderKoopa]

Ugh. Besides poking a little fun at all the editions, that was completely useless. @_@ Well, except saying 4E will be coming out in 2008.

[Rob Knotts]

MerricB on EN World has been compiling info as it becomes available:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204119

[Aximili]

?! Is that your gut instinct or just some cultural reference I am missing?

Just my gut instinct who doesn't want to believe that they'd hire a narrator who can barely pronounce "was" for absolutely no reason.

[de-trick]

it wasn't really a trailer more of a walk through the different editions

[Hurlbut]

Bypassing Armour, though? Doesn't seem very 'specifically' Spear like to me.
Well spear in general is very piercing.

[talsine]

I've posted a torrent of the main articles and the video at Chaos Wasteland; go to http://cw.enlightning.de:6969/stats.html?info_hash=6455bdea4c06c4583302c452ed036 3b06447a6e0

your my hero!!

[Matthew]

Well spear in general is very piercing.

Yeah, it is, and the idea is that it has penetrating power against Body Armour, but I think that could be said for just about any weapon.

So, really, I'm wondering penetration or bypass or both?

[CabbageTheif]

Zee Game Weel Reemaeen De Saim!

[MrNexx]

You're not. It looks like they're paying actual money for it.

I'm detecting some Elmore influence on the Wayne Reynolds individual. This is a good thing.

[MrNexx]

The only thing I can think of is a cross between Jacques Cousteau and the D&D in Quebec video that was going around.

[Matthew]

Gah! Thread Merger!

Yeah, I'm quite liking this new Art so far, but I haven't been to the website yet.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Two threads (one quite short) have been merged so expect some wierdness above.

Also, please stop the 1) profanity and 2) chatspeak. Thank you.

[Kizara]

Here's a thought.

Hire a narrator that's a native speaker of the language in question.
If its in Chinese, get a chinese guy that has a good projection.

If its in English, get an amercian/canadian that doesn't have a thick accent ffs.

This is really a straightforward enough concept that I believe WotC can understand it.

[Wonderboy]

Here's a thought.

Hire a narrator that's a native speaker of the language in question.
If its in Chinese, get a chinese guy that has a good projection.

If its in English, get an amercian/canadian that doesn't have a thick accent ffs.

This is really a straightforward enough concept that I believe WotC can understand it.

No madder ow mush you camplane, zee okzent weel remaine de same! :smallbiggrin:


And I'm pretty stoked, but the last splatbook I purchased was the Dragonlance campaign setting (I think), so I don't have much money invested in it.

[geez3r]

Well after considering all of the information that has been released, I will admit that I am interested as to what 4e will be like. However, I am not easily parted with my money, so I am going to sit and wait. I want to see what WoTC does with 4e and I sincerly hope they do a good job of it.

[Destro_Yersul]

*looks at Wizards site*
Expletive.
*cries*

[Matthew]

Yay, I am finally on the wizards site now everyone has gone off to bed! Now to draw my own conclusions... aw, I can't get past the main page now...

[brian c]

Yay, I am finally on the wizards site now everyone has gone off to bed! Now to draw my own conclusions... aw, I can't get past the main page now...

I'm still getting the technical difficulties screen...

[Hurlbut]

The server weep for mercy.:durkon:

[Svethnika]

Hey... it sounds really positive that they were testing some concepts with TOB and the star wars RPG. I heard someone theorize that was what they might have been doing too. It sounds good. Glad I've only bought one book from 3.5 so far too, lol Faster combat is almost always a good thing.

[Jarlax]

i was not impressed by that trailer, it really just said every edition including the current one, in fact especially the current one are all slow and boring. but 4th edition will be better than them all, especially 3.5 which is the slowest yet.

so basically instead of a message of "hey 4th edition is coming, were doing some exciting stuff with it your gonna enjoy, here are a few small quick teasers" which could have just been a rehash of the stuff presented in all the articles that came with the announcement.

instead they said "hey 3.5 is slow and boring, stuff like grapple takes too long to understand and needs an overhaul and its coming in 4th edition, but your all stuck with this lousy edition until mid next year"

focusing on the negative points of all their previous editions, and coming down hard especially on 3.5 is an insult to their current player base and leaves me thinking, "if you say every edition so far sucked, why should we believe 4th edition will be so much better".

[Fireball.Man.Guy.]

I've spent over $700 dollars in the last year buying splatbook. This news is some of the worst so far in my life. I'm honestly to shocked to cry.

[Bosh]

I've spent over $700 dollars in the last year buying splatbook. This news is some of the worst so far in my life. I'm honestly to shocked to cry.

This sort of attitude confuses me a bit. You've spent $700 on 3.5 ed splatbooks and you're upset that you won't the chance to spend even more money on 3.5 ed splatbooks in the future. I would think that once you have $700 of splatbooks for one game system you wouldn't need so many more...

[skywalker]

Good Lord. That's insane! How high a load do they have?!

I thought we were going 10 years between editions, and that I had another three years. Not less than one! My splatbooks, they're useless!!!

[Destro_Yersul]

I have decided to deny that 4th exists. I have 3.5, and that's good enough for me.

At least until someone tells me 4th doesn't suck.

[tainsouvra]

leaves me thinking, "if you say every edition so far sucked, why should we believe 4th edition will be so much better". I like your logic, but logic and propaganda rarely go well together. They're releasing 4E fast on the heels of 3.5E--if they don't convince people that 3.5 sucks, they run the risk of people being happy with their 3.5 games, which hurts their sales. Just pay no attention to the man behind the curtain and everything will be fine...

[Matthew]

It's about a year ahead of what I would have expected, but it won't be up and running properly for at least fifteen months, that's my bet.

[horseboy]

The only thing I can think of is a cross between Jacques Cousteau and the D&D in Quebec video that was going around.

It kinda reminds me of that guy on that retarded retro sitcom. What's his name, "Pez"?

[brian c]

Hey... it sounds really positive that they were testing some concepts with TOB and the star wars RPG. I heard someone theorize that was what they might have been doing too. It sounds good. Glad I've only bought one book from 3.5 so far too, lol Faster combat is almost always a good thing.

Hey, since you mentioned it... what is the star wars RPG like? I've never played it, but I'm curious as to what game mechanics from that they might incorporate into D&D. I know it uses Wound/Vitality, but I doubt that would become a core D&D thing instead of just a variant. Anybody wanna give a short version of SW game mechanics?

[Matthew]

I don't really know Saga, but here's what I have picked up about it:

1) Iterative Attacks = Gone
2) BAB = +1 AB and +1 DB
3) Off Hand Strength Damage Bonus Multiplier = x 1.0
4) Two Handed Strength Damage Bonus Multiplier = x 2.0
5) Saving Throws Scale by Level 1:1
6) Skills can be purchased and then automatically scale by level or used Untrained at Level -5(?).
7) Armour Class replaced by Defence Value

Almost all good changes (i.e. almost all changes I would make to 3e).

It also uses 'Talent Trees', but I don't pretend to understand that.

[Bosh]

I don't really know Saga, but here's what I have picked up about it:

1) Iterative Attacks = Gone
2) BAB = +1 AB and +1 DB
3) Off Hand Strength Damage Bonus Multiplier = x 1.0
4) Two Handed Strength Damage Bonus Multiplier = x 2.0
5) Saving Throws Scale by Level 1:1
6) Skills can be purchased and then automatically scale by level or used Untrained at Level -5(?).
7) Armour Class replaced by Defence Value

Almost all good changes (i.e. almost all changes I would make to 3e).

It also uses 'Talent Trees', but I don't pretend to understand that.

That does sound good. Now they just need to make shields not suck.

[RoboticSheeple]

Why do people need to stop playing 3.5 now that 4 is annoucned. This pissed off attitude about this doesn't make too much sense. I have a PS2, the PS3 is out, no new games are going to be made for the PS2, it isn't suddenly worthless, I can still boot up an old game and have fun with that too.

[Em Blackleaf]

Wow.
I tried accessing the website, and the servers are still too busy.

I was watching the countdown with my brother, and he clicked the link, and the servers were too busy already.
I think everyone in the world was on that website...

[Matthew]

Hmn, a certain family resemblance, are you related to Krimm, Em?

[Em Blackleaf]

Hmn, a certain family resemblance, are you related to Krimm, Em?

Yes.
He introduced me to the website.[/off topic]

I thought Wizards of the Coast would wait a few more years until 4th edition...

[Matthew]

A laudable pedigree. Welcome to the Forums and all that; good luck getting out... :smallwink:

I thought we had one more year of 3e than we did.

[Correction]
Apparently it's +1 DB per 2 Character Levels, I was thinking of a D&D proposal using a similar mechanic; still the D&D proposal would probably be better, Fighters with high BAB should do more Damage than Wizards from the same source.

Here are some links to previous Threads:

Star Wars Saga Edition Preview Discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40308)
Star Wars Saga Edition General Discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46544)
Star Wars Saga Edition Light Sabres and Block (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50528)
Star Wars Saga Edition Character Examples (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47413)

There's also a Skill Focus thing that grants +5 to a Skill. Talent Trees apparently are just Feats disguised as Class Features.

[RTGoodman]

Well, I've spent the last twelve hours writing music, teaching kids to play percussion, and all the other stuff that comes with helping teach a marching band, and now I'm finally back to what's important - checking out all that's been revealed about 4E since I left. :smallbiggrin:

Now that I've read the articles above about races, classes, and such (since I'm pretending to have never seen that teaser trailer :smallwink: ), I have to admit that I'm complete excited about 4E now.

That's not to say that I'll be buying everything the minute it comes out, but the system sounds pretty good. I fear for the Half-Orc, though - I'm nearly positive that's he's gonna be the race to get the boot (for a while, at least). That class that's going? I'm sort of hoping Monk is cut (until and Oriental Adventures style supplement comes out), and that Warlock becomes Corelock. Oh, and I'm nearly sure that Paladin will either become more like the ToB Crusader or (more likely) it'll be split into four separate classes a-la the variants in UA.

And I still can't access the site... :smallfurious:

[skywalker]

Now that I've read the articles above about races, classes, and such (since I'm pretending to have never seen that teaser trailer :smallwink: ), I have to admit that I'm complete excited about 4E now.

Question, where are these articles? If they've already been linked I apologize, but I'm sure you can understand that even I(I normally religiously read every page of a thread before posting) cannot even attempt to read this entire behemoth.

To re-cap: Links to these articles, possibly the teaser, please?

[Matthew]

Go to Enworld for compiled reviews. Search Youtube for the Teaser Trailer.

[RTGoodman]

Question, where are these articles? If they've already been linked I apologize, but I'm sure you can understand that even I(I normally religiously read every page of a thread before posting) cannot even attempt to read this entire behemoth.

To re-cap: Links to these articles, possibly the teaser, please?

Oh, no problem. BCOVertigo kindly posted the three articles I mentioned somewhere way back on like page 16 or 17. You can check them out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3048075&postcount=502).

The teaser trailer has been mentioned a couple of times, but here's another link (http://youtube.com/watch?v=QLeL-qYMh4o) just so people just getting into the conversation can see it more easily.

[darth_belkar]

I think my favorite part about the imminent release of 4E is the fact that EVERYONE at WotC has been vehemently DENYING that there was a new edition in the works for the past 3 years. Now we find out that, oh wait, 4E has been in the planning stages since early 2005...about a year and a half after 3.5 came out...

Stupid company that made Magic: The Sucking...

I've played D&D for about 12 years now, and I think 3.5 is the easiest system to use thus far. It isn't perfect, but it sure beats the old AD&D 1st ed rules I started with. (We only had old school books to begin...hand-me-downs, you know?)

Now, D&D will be converted to a WOW clone, ready mixed to drop into your video game platform of choice...

I think I'll stick with 3.X until...well, forever...

[Matthew]

Ah, Darth Belkar, you've just summed up the opinion of many a 2e player when the transition to 3e was announced. In fact, there was not as great a difference between 2e and 3e as people like to pretend (though there were significant differences). Similarly, I doubt there will be huge differences between 3e and 4e.

How do people feel about the prospect of a Saga style Skill System?

i.e.
1/2 character level + relevant ability modifier + 5 (if trained) + 5 (if Skill Focus)

[Damionte]

Posting again.

Our group most likely won't jump to 4th edition. We're in a campaign now, and will be starting a new one around thanksgiving that will probably go a year or so.

So the idea of jumping to 4th won't really come up. Particularly since there won't be enough source material until one of the other GM's take over. This group is older and has a bit more disposabel income so we have multiple copies of all of the 3.5 stuff. So the idea of junking it all to move to 4th now that 3rd edition is finnally complete kinda rubs us the wrong way.

Had they gone maybe one more year and released 4th edition in maybe late 2009 or early 2010 we'd have been happier as we it woudln't have been so hot on the heels of 3.5 completion.

Anyway 4.0 won't have enough stuff at release. Unless they're going to go like Gurps or Heroes and give us one hell of a rule book.

I yes hero systems rulebook is huge, I mean in some states you couldn't walk around with a book tha large without a weapons permit. But in the end it's just 1 book. you only need that oen book to do everything.

That's soemthing I would liek to see with D&D 4th. Though considering thier business model I know it won't happen. Will they put enough stuff in the players handbook to allow us to play the same amount of variety in character class options that we currently can in 3.5?

That'll be what pushes many of us to 4th.

[Zeful]

Well having read the posted articles and looking over the 4th Edition "Forum" I've come to the conclusion that 4th ed is needlessly complicated and will only get much much worse.

[Rob Knotts]

I've come to the conclusion that 4th ed is needlessly complicated and will only get much much worse.Ah, so it will be backwards-compatible with earlier editions:smallbiggrin:

[horseboy]

Anyway 4.0 won't have enough stuff at release. Unless they're going to go like Gurps or Heroes and give us one hell of a rule book.

I yes hero systems rulebook is huge, I mean in some states you couldn't walk around with a book tha large without a weapons permit. But in the end it's just 1 book. you only need that oen book to do everything.

That's soemthing I would liek to see with D&D 4th. Though considering thier business model I know it won't happen. Will they put enough stuff in the players handbook to allow us to play the same amount of variety in character class options that we currently can in 3.5?

That'll be what pushes many of us to 4th.

Well, it's not "just" going to be the PHB. They're releasing those two "Interium" (I have no idea how to spell that) books in what, October and April. From the sound of it, the one in April will be an "temporary" DMG.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

I dunno, I'm pretty excited.

[darth_belkar]

Similarly, I doubt there will be huge differences between 3e and 4e.

I don't know about that...WotC has practically announced that 4E is based on Saga ed. and Tome of Battle. So, what I'm seeing is, instead of the Star Wars RPG as futuristic D&D, now D&D will be ancient Star Wars...and anime.

Don't get me wrong. I like the Book of 9 Swords, and I've hear a lot of good things about Saga (haven't had a chance to play yet...no SW gaming group near by...), but I want D&D to be what it always has been: innovative, original, and unique.

Trying to make it more like a video game isn't improving anything. It hurts the system. Tabletop RPGs are supposed to be about developing a character and playing in a fictional world...not hacking and slashing your way through all the "bosses". (Not that there's no place for h&s, but that is NOT the RPGs forte, IMHO.)

D&D has gone strong for 30+ years now with the players we already have, and those people who want to experience a fantasy world without sitting in front of the tube. Dumbing the system down to appeal to video gamers is only going to drive veteran role-players away. (I have nothing against video games, really. I enjoy them quite a bit myself...I just like to keep the two types of gaming separate...)

I realize I'm re-hashing the sentiments of 2E gamers when 3E came out...I was one of those 2E players who loved the system. But, I still saw room for some vast improvements, and when the books came out for 3E, I was very happy with the updates and changes. But now, it seems that WotC is just rushing through editions to sell more books and pad their bottom line. Why not show some loyalty to the system?

I'm going to stop ranting now...

[Matthew]

Well, it's not "just" going to be the PHB. They're releasing those two "Interium" (I have no idea how to spell that) books in what, October and April. From the sound of it, the one in April will be an "temporary" DMG.

I thought the preview books were December and January, an Adventure was scheduled for April, followed by the PHB in May, DMG in June and MM in July.

[Edit]
I dunno, Darth Belkar, seems to me most Saga changes are for the better (Maybe I'm biased as it looks a lot like my House Ruled and Home Brewed 2e Game). All of the above I pretty much approve of for 3e, never mind 4e, and the disposing of the rubbish critical rules (ala Saga) would please me as well.

A lot of the other Articles sound like Conan D20. I just don't think it's going to be unrecognisable.

[horseboy]

Eh, somewhere in there. I've slept since then, don't remember the exact details. :smalltongue:

[Dragor]

Aw, man, I just read through this whole thread. I ROFL'd badly...

And.... 4th Ed? Personally, I'm very excited. And that beholder looked pretty nifty too.

*Twitches*

I.... I was planning on staying up waiting for the countdown to finish... pretty glad I didn't now.

[skywalker]

I'm with darth, I think they're focusing on the combat a little bit too much, and this new jibber-jabber about axes and hammers being something cool sounds to me like a video-game type of system. What I've heard of 4e sounds less realistic than 3rd edition. There's a reason why most optimized characters use swords in D&D. Because they're simply better, they were historically and that's the right way for them to be modeled in D&D.

@matthew: I'm rather put off by this skill system. In particular, what it means for skills like open lock, and in general, what it means for the rogue class. I'm pretty sure I've got a handle on how they're changing fighters(maneuvers for everyone, hurray! Also, the aforementioned specialization, about which I'm pretty iffy) but on the subject of rogues, I've no idea what they're doing, but I know they're changing them drastically. And this one hurts, because I LIKE rogues.

It looks like customization, in general, is down.

As for speeding up combat, I feel like slow combat is something we all complain about, but don't really want to see change. Because ALL RPG combat drags. Any RPG that is respected has slow combat. I think it's secretly because we all like that time in the spotlight, where everyone's watching OUR dice.

But the one thing I can absolutely say I LOVE about this new edition is: GOODBYE GRAPPLE RULES!!!

[Matthew]

I'm with darth, I think they're focusing on the combat a little bit too much, and this new jibber-jabber about axes and hammers being something cool sounds to me like a video-game type of system. What I've heard of 4e sounds less realistic than 3rd edition. There's a reason why most optimized characters use swords in D&D. Because they're simply better, they were historically and that's the right way for them to be modeled in D&D.

You haven't read the previews on the site, then. Swords are still the best weapons, apparently, though personally I'm not entirely convinced that such is perfectly historically accurate. Honestly, though, 3e was the king of focusing on combat, which is saying something, because previous editions liked their combat as well. What I am interested in is the Shield Rules. Hopefully, we will see an Active Block mechanic like the Jedi's Block/Parry thing or ToB's Wall of Blades Manoeuvre (also very similar to 2e's Parry/Block Manoeuvre)


@matthew: I'm rather put off by this skill system. In particular, what it means for skills like open lock, and in general, what it means for the rogue class. I'm pretty sure I've got a handle on how they're changing fighters(maneuvers for everyone, hurray! Also, the aforementioned specialization, about which I'm pretty iffy) but on the subject of rogues, I've no idea what they're doing, but I know they're changing them drastically. And this one hurts, because I LIKE rogues.

Yeah, that is a concern, but I actually doubt that it will be perfectly like Saga in this respect. What I expect is for the 'buying Skills as Proficiencies and Focus aspects to remain (granting +5 and +5 Bonuses), but some sort of Skill Point Mechanic to be available. even if it isn't by default, it would be relatively easy to House Rule on.


It looks like customization, in general, is down.

I doubt this very much, but we will see.


As for speeding up combat, I feel like slow combat is something we all complain about, but don't really want to see change. Because ALL RPG combat drags. Any RPG that is respected has slow combat. I think it's secretly because we all like that time in the spotlight, where everyone's watching OUR dice.

Not me, I much prefer speedier combats.


But the one thing I can absolutely say I LOVE about this new edition is: GOODBYE GRAPPLE RULES!!!

Yep, that will be a benefit!

[Tellah]

How do people feel about the prospect of a Saga style Skill System?

i.e.
1/2 character level + relevant ability modifier + 5 (if trained) + 5 (if Skill Focus)

I love it. The 3.5 skill system is just another layer of needless complexity in character creation--probably my chief concern with the 3.5 ruleset. If D&D 4e uses the Saga skill system, I'll be able to judge quite easily the likelihood that my players will be able to overcome a particular challenge. Going from ranks to something that simply scales by level will make character creation just that much easier, too. I just ran a game this evening in which we introduced a player's wife to the game, and it took a table full of 3.5 veterans about two hours to build a fifth-level bard for this poor woman. Anything that streamlines the game is a big boon for me.

Oh, and If you want a primer on talent trees, have a quick look at the d20 Modern SRD (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/BasicClasses.php). They're a wonderful replacement for class features, and if designed well they should obviate the need for having so many distinct classes. A scout could easily be modeled as a separate talent tree for the rogue class, for instance.

[Matthew]

Heh, Tellah, maybe you should be using the Unearthed Arcana Variant that puts full ranks in chosen Skills!

Yeah, I like the simplification in some ways and dislike it in others (Half Level mechanics annoy me a lot). Either way it's not the end of the world by a long shot. As I understand it, many Traits are Skill fuelled Special Abilities.

[skywalker]

What's this about traits and such?

And that is how the supposed new skill system works? Half your character level etc.?

What ever happened to having a rogue that could move, a rogue that could pick locks, and a rogue that could sneak attack not necessarily being the same person?

I dis-like talent trees as well. The d20 modern classes are far too generic, in my opinion. I'd much rather have a scout and a rogue as have the scout be a rogue variant.

[Matthew]

They paired down Skill Bonuses for Saga, removing Synergy and Racial Bonuses and such, to prevent abuse and basically 'cap' Skills to some extent. Traits replaced these, which would allow things like 'reroll a Persuasion Check' or something like that.

There's nothing saying that Skills are themselves going to be grouped together and streamlined, though what would it really matter if they combined Sneak and Hide into Stealth or Search and Spot into Perceive and so on? [Edit] Disclaimer - I think the 3e Skill System is pretty terrible, so I am probably biased.

[Thurbane]

I'm gonna sit tight with the 3.5 books I've got, OGL stuff posted by good people on the internet and buying stuff from 3rd party publishers.

I'm not going to buy any 4E until the inevitable 4.5 :smallbiggrin:

[Damionte]

I'm gonna sit tight with the 3.5 books I've got, OGL stuff posted by good people on the internet and buying stuff from 3rd party publishers.

I'm not going to buy any 4E until the inevitable 4.5 :smallbiggrin:

I'm kinda thinkign that too. They burned me with the 3.0 - 3.5 thing. I bought the 3.0 stuff early at a con, for what I felt at the time was way to much money. Just to have them be obsolete later and completely unusable.

So no I will definately not be buying the 4.0 books till they've been out a few years. I won't be burned like that again.

[AtomicKitKat]

I'm gonna sit tight with the 3.5 books I've got, OGL stuff posted by good people on the internet and buying stuff from 3rd party publishers.

I'm not going to buy any 4E until the inevitable 4.5 :smallbiggrin:

Yeah. They'll probably be patching it with 4.0.1, and won't slow down till 4.4.5 :smalltongue:

Trying to appeal to the "video-gaming crowd" is flawed logic anyway. If you're part of the video-gaming crowd, the only reason to switch to P&P is because your old man is breathing down your neck about the electric bill.:smallamused:

[skywalker]

What if they released 4.5 as an update to 4.0? They're already laying the groundwork for downloadable errata and the like with the online versions of every book, and while I know that isn't part of the wizards business strategy, most of the cost of ALL books is in the printing and binding. It seems to me like one could opt for a much cheaper update that way instead of buying something printed. Since content is much easier to publish that way, it seems like wizards would get the same amount of profit and we would spend less, leading to a win-win(Especially in their public relations).

[Dausuul]

D&D has gone strong for 30+ years now with the players we already have, and those people who want to experience a fantasy world without sitting in front of the tube. Dumbing the system down to appeal to video gamers is only going to drive veteran role-players away. (I have nothing against video games, really. I enjoy them quite a bit myself...I just like to keep the two types of gaming separate...)

I realize I'm re-hashing the sentiments of 2E gamers when 3E came out...I was one of those 2E players who loved the system. But, I still saw room for some vast improvements, and when the books came out for 3E, I was very happy with the updates and changes. But now, it seems that WotC is just rushing through editions to sell more books and pad their bottom line. Why not show some loyalty to the system?

Because the system is still in need of updates and changes?

I don't see any "dumbing-down" going on; what I do see is a lot of stuff being simplified that is currently far more complicated than it needs to be. In terms of game mechanics, a tabletop RPG should be much less complex than a video game; the video game has a computer to crunch all the numbers for you, but tabletop gaming relies entirely upon human brains. So whenever you add a mechanic to a tabletop game, you have to ask, "Does the added verisimilitude, improved game balance, or tactical flexibility provided by this mechanic outweigh the added headache of keeping track of it?"

While D&D 3E made many great innovations, I find it often loses sight of that principle. To take just one example, consider ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, and enervation. All of these are essentially the same thing--rays of negative energy that sap an enemy's strength. Yet each of them uses a completely different mechanic. Is it really necessary to keep track of a Strength penalty and fatigue penalties and negative levels? I realize one can argue for subtle differences between the spells, but is it actually important enough to make a harried DM take time in the middle of combat to keep track of those differences?


As for speeding up combat, I feel like slow combat is something we all complain about, but don't really want to see change. Because ALL RPG combat drags. Any RPG that is respected has slow combat. I think it's secretly because we all like that time in the spotlight, where everyone's watching OUR dice.

RPG combat is certainly slow compared to real combat or even video-game combat, but slow is one thing and dragging is another. It's not so much a question of the pace as it is of what players and the DM spend their time doing. If that time is spent discussing tactics, making clever maneuvers, and role-playing dramatic moments, it's a good combat system. If it's spent adding up numbers and trying to keep track of a million modifiers... not so much.


But the one thing I can absolutely say I LOVE about this new edition is: GOODBYE GRAPPLE RULES!!!

Amen.

[Were-Sandwich]

Digital Versions of Rulebooks
Each paper product will include codes to unlock digital versions on the site for a "nominal" activation fee.

Gotta catch 'em all!

Also: apparently 4e has been in development since 2005. So, all those times they said 4e wasn't in development, they were flat-out lying. Way to consolidate your fan-base, right after axeing Dungeon and Dragon.

That video is hilarious. Am I the only one who finds the grappling rules pretty easy to understand?

The new edition looks ok. I think I'll stick to jsut printing the SRD though. I have too much money invested in 3e to just dump it, especially considering how infrequently I actually play.

Also: That is one BITCHIN' beholder. The new art looks pwntastic.

[PlatinumJester]

They so better have gotten rid of the monk and replaced it with a fighter varient that uses fists.

Apart from that, did anyone manage to get through to the site and if so did they manage to copy the content onto somewhere else?
I had to go to bed right after the countdown finished :smallfrown:

[mudbunny]

Also: apparently 4e has been in development since 2005. So, all those times they said 4e wasn't in development, they were flat-out lying. Way to consolidate your fan-base, right after axeing Dungeon and Dragon.

For all those people who are complaining about WotC not telling you that they were going to be updating 3.5. Think about it a bit. Did you really expect them to come out and say "Don't buy anything that we are going to be selling, because we are putting out a new edition eventually."

They're a business, whose goal is to make profit. Anyone who *didn't* see something like this coming was being quite self-deceiving.

[Roxlimn]

I'll have to admit that I'm sick of this money complaint as well. So WotC is out to make money. Wow. Like that was a surprise. Okay, who in here thought that WotC was a nonprofit organization dedicated to gaming?

Businesses need money to survive. Companies that lose money die, and then they stop making whatever it was they were making. Particularly for a luxury item like games, it's in the company's best interests to make it appealing to its market, because it's not a necessary purchase. Wizards may not be listening to YOU personally, but it does listen to its market feedback. I think that a good part of why ToB elements are to be included into the new edition is because of the overwhelmingly positive feedback it's been getting.

If you want changes, or if you like something, then say it. If you shout loud enough, WotC will listen, because it profits them to listen.

[Dausuul]

For all those people who are complaining about WotC not telling you that they were going to be updating 3.5. Think about it a bit. Did you really expect them to come out and say "Don't buy anything that we are going to be selling, because we are putting out a new edition eventually."

They're a business, whose goal is to make profit. Anyone who *didn't* see something like this coming was being quite self-deceiving.

Indeed. Although I'd prefer that they adopt a tactic of saying "We cannot comment on future editions" whenever asked about such things, starting the first time someone asks about 5E (or 4.5E). That way they wouldn't have to flat-out lie about it.

But obviously they aren't going to provide years and years of lead time on the announcement; I think they gave us as much as they reasonably could without hurting their own business unduly. Even as it is, sales of 3.5E stuff are going to plummet over the next few months. I was planning to buy Monster Manual V just a few days ago; now I'm going to pass on it and wait for 4E instead.

[Were-Sandwich]

For all those people who are complaining about WotC not telling you that they were going to be updating 3.5. Think about it a bit. Did you really expect them to come out and say "Don't buy anything that we are going to be selling, because we are putting out a new edition eventually."

They're a business, whose goal is to make profit. Anyone who *didn't* see something like this coming was being quite self-deceiving.

What I'm saying is that revealing they've been lying to us for 2 years about something this big, shortly after axeing Dungeon and Dragon, isn't necessarily the best move if you want your customers to have confidence in you.

[Charity]

Roxlimn
Just to play devils advocate here for a second.
Sometimes what people want is not what people need.
The reason you get power creep, is because people want it, then they same folk whom bought all the splatbooks, because of this that or the other 'cool' prestige class or whathaveyou then whine on about the brokenness of it all, heck did we need epic? it's just daft, but it's popular so now we are getting thirty levels... Anyhow, canvassing opinion, although generally a good thing leads to rule by the lowest common denominator. This makes it marketable, but it doesn't necessarily make it fun to actually play.

^ bah all companies lie to you every time they advertise their products, WotC made a sound business decision not to effect their sales detrimentally...
When you sell your car do you point out the ciggie burn in the carpet or do you just hope they don't notice?

[banjo1985]

I think Wizards have taken a bit of a risk announcing it so early to be honest, as you say, they're going to lose a lot of possible sales over the next 9 months or so. I was expecting maybe 3 months lead time.

It's true that all companys have to make money, but it would be fair to say that your average DnD book is maybe £3-4 more expensive than any book from anoher system thats comparable, at least over here in the UK. The possibilty of 7 core books also seems a bit like overkill to me...

[mudbunny]

What I'm saying is that revealing they've been lying to us for 2 years about something this big, shortly after axeing Dungeon and Dragon, isn't necessarily the best move if you want your customers to have confidence in you.

OK. Let's play a little thought-experiment.

An announcement from WotC comes out late 2005.
"We are currently working on 4th Edition. It should be out within 3 years. It will revamp the core races, the core classes, change how weapons work, change how feats work, change how skills work."

How many more 3.5 Ed books do you buy. Do you continue buying 3.5 Ed stuff, or do you wait until 4th Ed to come out??

There are not many reasons, other than wanting to see your bottom line dive into the toilet, for a company like WotC to announce that they are making a new Edition far in advance of it being ready.

As for Dungeon and Dragon Magazine, they didn't axe it. They are just changing the way that it is being provided. What with Gleemax and their new Digital Initiative (or whatever the portal will be called), it only made sense. Look at it this way. Now they can do things like "Buy DMG, get an issue of Dragon/Dungeon Online free".

[Were-Sandwich]

Ah, Gleemax, the shrine to WOTC's delusions of grandeur.

[Charity]

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/842/843430.JPG

They are not taking anything away, you still have all your books, they all still work.

[rollfrenzy]

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/842/843430.JPG

They are not taking anything away, you still have all your books, they all still work.

1. That beer looks delicious.

2. YOUR WRONG OMG!!!!! everything we all own is going to be ruined forever. WoTC is going to come confinscate it and burn it. If we don't switch to 4.0 then we will never again be allowed to game.

3. Oh. wait. no, you're right. my bad.

[kingpain]

I've spent too much, won't do it agian. Sorry, but if they plan to run DnD like Magic the Gathering, then I'd rather not invest any time/money with them at all.

[Dusk_Rider]

So do we know yet whether 4e is using the d20 system? :smallconfused:

[Hurlbut]

I've spent too much, won't do it agian. Sorry, but if they plan to run DnD like Magic the Gathering, then I'd rather not invest any time/money with them at all.....:smallsigh: gee, at least some people in here are very open mind toward 4th, even including "wait and see" ones.

[ALOR]

....:smallsigh: gee, at least some people in here are very open mind toward 4th, even including "wait and see" ones.

yet he has a valid point. Why invest as much money in 4.0 as i have in 3.5 just to know that 4.5 is around the corner. Then when you buy all of 4.5 books, oops here is 5.0.

[Pendragonx]

....:smallsigh: gee, at least some people in here are very open mind toward 4th, even including "wait and see" ones.

meh, some of us aren't made of money :)

[rollfrenzy]

yet he has a valid point. Why invest as much money in 4.0 as i have in 3.5 just to know that 4.5 is around the corner. Then when you buy all of 4.5 books, oops here is 5.0.

This is exactly why there are people still playing 1st ed, 2nd ed, 3.0, and it's why soon that list will include 3.5.

As for everybody screaming "it's too soon". If WoTC had waited, you would have spent MORE money on books that are obsolete unsupported. And you would have argued, "We have been playing 3.5 for ten years, I don't want to learn a new system."

In short, some people are going to like the changes and buy everything that gets put out. Some are going to buy up old 3.5 books, and some will just walk away. No marketing scheme they could have come up with would have made everybody happy. Short of here's 4.0 it's free and heres all you old books for free updated to the new system.

Scream, rant, complain, boycott, buy, squeel gleefully, but in the end, as has been said before, WoTC is a business. It will produce what products it thinks will sell.

Yes, in 4-5 years, 4.5 or 5.0 will come out, just like PS4 and xbox 720.

And all this will start again.

so it goes.

[banjo1985]

Yes, in 4-5 years, 4.5 or 5.0 will come out, just like PS4 and xbox 720.

And all this will start again.

so it goes.

...and so the wheels of big business turn. You really aren't ever going to please veryone when updating a system, I play a lot of WoD and there are a hell of a lot of people that still play the old system, and they left it about 10 years between editions; people still complained.

So WotC have the most popular roleplaying system in the world; it's a liscence to print money, good luck to them. All company's do it, including other games developers. All the complaints about various aspects of 3.5 has probably made them push it out quicker as well.

[Roxlimn]

Charity:

Well, that's certainly an issue, but I think that it's not as big as issue as all that, particularly with a big edition release.

The thing with power creep and stuff that wears out is that after a time, you don't sell any more of that product once word gets around. New edition books have to sell well throughout their lifetimes or you won't make as much money. You don't really need to worry about the short-term boost because it's a new edition. Its new system and the hype that goes with it will already boost the short term sales beyond what catering to power creeping will do.

So they want to make a medium-term more or less generally saleable product. So they'll be trying to cater to what people really want as opposed to what people say they want.

I'm hoping that the thirty level spread will be something that caters to a meaningful leveling paradigm with a reasonable flat plateau for multiple flavors.

I mean in the current game, if you want gritty low level play, you play 1st to 5th and that's just about done. If you want a mid-level heroic style play, you play 5th-12th and then that's just about done. If you want legendary play, you play 12th-20th, and even that breaks down halfway through.

I'm hoping that the flavor of 20 levels has now been stretched to 30, with equal representation for all flavors of play. That is, you can experience meaningful "level ups" at every flavor without giving up that flavor.

[CabbageTheif]

have we heard anything on a 'starting pacage' for 4e yet? my plan is to wait fo it to come out, play the new system in n00bform, and see where it goes from there.

i like the races idea, but i dont like how they have all of the things that we homebrew and create (dm tools, i assume they are npc gen, town gen, even perhaps dungeon gen) but we gotta pay a monthly fee for it. the only way i'd b e interested in the computer rpart of it is if the cost was unte 10$

[yango]

have we heard anything on a 'starting pacage' for 4e yet? my plan is to wait fo it to come out, play the new system in n00bform, and see where it goes from there.

i like the races idea, but i dont like how they have all of the things that we homebrew and create (dm tools, i assume they are npc gen, town gen, even perhaps dungeon gen) but we gotta pay a monthly fee for it. the only way i'd b e interested in the computer rpart of it is if the cost was unte 10$

Adventure H1: Keep on Shadowfell is supposed to be a Level 1-3 adventure due out in April, before the core rules. It contains a starting DM booklet, Players Booklet, dice, and the adventure.

IMO if the new Dungeon and Dragon are good (which we'll be able to find out as part of their free preview), its well worth the $10, since thats how much the cost was for each of them before. As far as I'm concerned, the DM tools, Character Generation, and Online Game Table are extra gimmicks on top of the "magazines".

[yango]

yet he has a valid point. Why invest as much money in 4.0 as i have in 3.5 just to know that 4.5 is around the corner. Then when you buy all of 4.5 books, oops here is 5.0.

Because it was your choice to spend the money on all the books. If 4.5 is anything like 3.5, then you will do just fine running it out of 4.0+SRD and not need the 4.5 core books.

It makes no sense to let a grudge prevent you from buying a very worthwhile product, if 4th Edition turns out to be one.

[Svethnika]

I don't really know Saga, but here's what I have picked up about it:

1) Iterative Attacks = Gone
2) BAB = +1 AB and +1 DB
3) Off Hand Strength Damage Bonus Multiplier = x 1.0
4) Two Handed Strength Damage Bonus Multiplier = x 2.0
5) Saving Throws Scale by Level 1:1
6) Skills can be purchased and then automatically scale by level or used Untrained at Level -5(?).
7) Armour Class replaced by Defence Value

Almost all good changes (i.e. almost all changes I would make to 3e).

It also uses 'Talent Trees', but I don't pretend to understand that.

Those changes sound pretty good to me. I like the scaling skill points and the base attack bonus being damage bonus as as well especially.

[The Demented One]

I think Wizards have taken a bit of a risk announcing it so early to be honest, as you say, they're going to lose a lot of possible sales over the next 9 months or so. I was expecting maybe 3 months lead time.
I'm personally expecting that, if Wizards wants to make much money at all in the next 9 months, then most of the books will be (and will be advertised as being) compatible both with 3.5 and 4th, kind of like how Savage Species was both for 3.0 and 3.5. People aren't going to be as upset about the big expiration date on them, and some might even be drawn to them for the chance of getting a sneak peek at 4th ed.

[yango]

Those changes sound pretty good to me. I like the scaling skill points and the base attack bonus being damage bonus as as well especially.

Well, we know for a fact that AC and saves will still be separate, since they were mentioned separately in different articles.

I personally like the freedom of spreading skill points, but I would be more than willing to try a hybrid of the Saga system and the current one.

The way Talents work is that instead of having set class features, you choose them from a tree of them, which focus on various different things. This allows multiple similar classes to be combined into a single one.

[North]

if 4E is a lot like the new starwars saga im looking forwards to it. 3.5 is convoluted and pretty bloated now. Sage is a lot more stream lined. If it makes the game faster and more fun then Im all for it.

ANd I actually hope that Rich does convert OOTS to 4.0 that would be hilarious. Just like the beginning comic. Maybe Belkar gets some cool upgrades this time. :smallbiggrin:

[Rob Knotts]

I'm personally expecting that, if Wizards wants to make much money at all in the next 9 months, then most of the books will be (and will be advertised as being) compatible both with 3.5 and 4th, kind of like how Savage Species was both for 3.0 and 3.5. People aren't going to be as upset about the big expiration date on them, and some might even be drawn to them for the chance of getting a sneak peek at 4th ed.From the press release:
D&D products released between now and the launch of 4th Edition will fall into three groups. Edition-proof products (which are mostly story) will not include mechanics that are edition-specific. Some products will be "enhanced" to 4th Edition mechanics after release through DnDInsider, and a couple of series will end as 3.5 products.

The setting for the core books are campaign neutral. Forgotten Realms will be the first campaign setting to be updated (in August 2008). Other campaign settings will be updated at a rate of one per year.

[Telonius]

I'm still getting over the brain-shock of seeing the words "half-elf" and "inspiring presence" used in the same sentence.

I'm getting excited about 4e now. At the very least, I want to know just what the new rules are going to be. I really, really like the idea of making each weapon do *something* different. (Really, why use a Heavy Mace when you could use a Morningstar?)

[Dizlag]

And it would be hilarious if the halfling race was cut from Core. It's not going to be though, but just think of the comic if that happened. :smalltongue:

*picturing Belkar turning transparent, at least until a splatbook gets published*

My 2cp on it all. I've invested a tremendous about of money into this "hobby" of mine called "Roleplaying". I will be there at "The Source" (my local gaming store) the day 4th Edition comes out. I'll subscribe to D&D Insider as well to get the .pdf of the PHB, Dungeon, Dragon, and all the other online goodies that will help my game.

Dizlag

EDIT: w00t! The D&D site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome&dcmp=ILC-DND062006FP) is up at Wizards!

[SpikeFightwicky]

I don't know if it's just me, but I hope Monks don't make the cut for 4th ed. I was used to a monkless 2nd ed., and was always wondering where they were supposed to fit in in 3rd. In my gaming experience, they've always been a 'flurry of headaches' for the players.

I really hope that they re-introduce Ravenloft as a fully supported realm. S&S did a good job, but it didn't have the same D&D feel when I played in 2nd ed.

[Were-Sandwich]

I like the fact that one of the articles links to Nintendo 64 kid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8q-elxC6gU)

[Rayek]

The announcement of 4e actually came as a relief to me. It means I have no more 3.5 D&D rulebooks to buy. :smallsmile: I own all of the current 3.5 books that interest me, and now know that nothing new for 3.5 will be coming down the pipe. My bank account is thanking me already.

I don't have anything against a new edition, but am happy enough with 3.5 to not feel the need to replace it. If the revisions in 4e are truly revolutionary and take the game to a whole new level of playability, I might be compelled to buy. I have no interest; however, in paying a monthly fee for spiffy online content, or the ability to play over the internet. D&D for me is a social game where I get to interact with players face to face, not avatar to avatar.

My feeling is that 4e will basically do these things: 1. Hopefully cleanup and streamline the rules. 2. Recycle/Repackage existing products via revised, retitled and expanded 4e versions of them. 3. Tie the miniatures game in even more fully. 4. Provide a steady stream of revenue from online subscriptions.

[ALOR]

Because it was your choice to spend the money on all the books. If 4.5 is anything like 3.5, then you will do just fine running it out of 4.0+SRD and not need the 4.5 core books.

It makes no sense to let a grudge prevent you from buying a very worthwhile product, if 4th Edition turns out to be one.

I wouldn't consider "grudge" and "waisting money" the same thing. I don't want to buy 4.0 because in 4-5 years they will bring forth yet another update/new eddition thats makes all of the current books outdated and they will keep doing it and doing it until they ride D&D into the ground.

When the SRD comes out i will read it but i don't intened ,at this point, to give WotC any more of my money.

I'm not telling anyone else not to buy 4.0. I'm not trying to start a crusade against WotC. I'm just not waisting anymore of my money on them.

[Eladrinstar]

Angry Gamer Rant: :smallfurious:

If there is a time to purposely mispell words, it is now! *Head Asplodes!"

They lied to us! They have been saying for years "No plans for 4e". And then they pull this! It doesn't so much make me angry that they did it, it's just that they did it by being dishonest about it!

Good news for Forgotten Realms fans, though: Grand History of the Forgotten Realms will sell well, due to having no crunch so it won't become obsolete. Which means Hasbro will look and say "Hey, how about more of that."

I hope OotS will not be updated!

[TSGames]

Suddenly, and for no raisin! DnD 3.5 is not as interesting to me. Meh. Kind of like Melee, it just isn't as interesting now that Brawl is almost here.

[OverdrivePrime]

“The D&D game table is basically the place where you can play D&D 24/7. It’s the kitchen table on the internet,” explained Slavicsek. “It lets you do everything you can do on the kitchen table—roll the dice, lay out your battle map, lay out your dry erase marker map, lay out your dungeon tiles, lay out your virtual miniatures,” and it will let players use voice chat through the company Vivox to communicate directly through the game table just like if they were all in the same room.

“What we really like about this is that with a lot of groups, after college the group breaks up, never to see each other again. Well now you can call each other and log into D&D Insider and play on the D&D game table. And suddenly your groups that have been gone for 10 years can get back together and play with each other.” According to Slavicsek, all of this will be free to D&D Insider subscribers, but also available to nonsubscribers for a nominal fee.

Even if everything else about 4th edition is horrible, they've got me and my money with the virtual game table. The people I want to game with aren't just a short bike ride across the neighborhood anymore. They're in different states and different countries. I've been waiting for a practical development like this since the end of college.

[horseboy]

Well, I was interested until I read this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drpr/20070816a). Wow, if that's their idea of play testing.... A +2 AOE to saves not good? Wipe out a BBEG and his minions while running on 1/2 power and still not sweating? choosing NOT to do an encounter when it's their job to test encounters? Oh yeah, it's going to be every bit as broken as 3.X.



And what's up with the 1/2 tyranid 1/2beholder?

[Chris_Chandler]

Okay -

I've been reading along for a bit, and there have been a number of people making some fine points. When I play D&D, it's 3.5, SRD, and I include my own houserules. Many of those houserules have come all the way through with me, since I started playing (that'd be '83-'84). I say that to point out that the game is similar enough throughout iterations that threads run through. Of course, absolutely, there are specific things (skills, a reversal of the basic mechanic allowing for an open-ended roll, etc.) that make 3.5 it's own game, but the point is that D&D is D&D whether or not you're playing a "fighting man", deciding to try out an UA Cavalier, writing out a ThaC0 chart at the bottom of your character sheet, deciding between playing an alienst or a warlock for the extra spells, wondering if keen actually could stack with improved crit, or trying to reach a zen understanding of grappling huge creatures.

I spent... a lot of money from the second 2e came out until skills and powers (combat and tactics FTW). I still have the bulk of it, too, though I just don't use it anymore. I honestly didn't pick up more than the 3.0 "core three" when it came out, because my gaming group was really uninterested (to the point of a falling out with a very "pro" 3rd ed DM). I play 3.5 exclusively now (for D&D), in part because I feel that the d20 system is a superior ruleset. I have a lot inspiration from the older "fluff" in my collection, but I prefer how the game is run with 3.5. I've not spent thousands of dollars on the game, though, because I just plain don't have the cash to purchase things like I used to.

The SRD is a great tool, and it allows me to continue to allow my knowledge of the game to grow, and make sure everyone is on the same page. Yes, I have looked at all the "non core" material (Complete Champion notwithstanding - too new), but I'm not going to make any purchases. Why? I can't afford to. I can play my hobby unfettered via the SRD and my homebrew. I support WOTC in other ways, and make occasional purchases, but, crap, I've got a family, I have bills. If I want a new sourcebook, I wait for my seasonal purchase (like I did with GURPS 4e).

When 4th edition is released, I'll be one of the first to study it. It's my hobby, it's what I enjoy. I want to keep on top of it. I might pick up the starter adventure, and run my gaming group through it. Will I switch immediately? Of course not! I ran 2e games for another 3 years after 3e came out, and had to convice the grognards with whom I play to step into the waters of 3.5. If 4th ed it viable, I'll "upgrade". I did so twice already, so another time is not going to be a problem.

WOTC did well with 3.5, though I'm frustrated with the amount of sprawl that followed, especially with marketing telling us that sprawl was not going to happen. I'm also frustrated that, even though the public has gotten "nope" as an answer for if 4e is even on the drawing board, this announcement is so sudden. Sure, it's all business, but that's not my issue. Business ethics aside, there are plenty of folks who wanted to participate in building the new ruleset. Now, I know the wizards boards, and a few choice products are at the forefront of the "testing" stage for this edition, but what would have been the harm in actually telling folks, "hey, we're in the most basic of planning stages right now, but we're willing to listen to your input, so, let's hear it". Instead we can just hope that the very opinionated folks on the wotc board were even acknowledged, much less used as part of the process.

All that to say, cool, a new edition is a very exciting time, when even the most mundane of design points is interesting and giggled over, but, dangit WOTC, bother to include the folks playing the game in the decision making process.

[Kiero]

meh, some of us aren't made of money :)

And how exactly are you obligated to buy anything? It's not like the books you already have are magically stripped of contents, forcing you to go out and get new books.

[Brianish]

Unfortunately, once it comes out, you have to either oblige them and convert, retool every subsequent release so that it fits back into 3.5, or cease buying new books ever. It wouldn't concern me too much, except that it's going to effect campaign setting releases. It's going to really bug the crap out of me when my Eberron books start bridging two systems.

[Wizzardman]

Blast you, Wizards! Fourth Edition isn't even out yet, and already you've dealt me a fatal blow!

MMO's are bad enough! We don't need you charging a monthly fee for online content, too!

[/rant]

That aside, I think the new stuff on weapon types looks promising. There's already been some variation for different weapons [like bonuses to disarm with flails], but I think additional variety and detail would be quite nice.

I'd just rather not have all the nice Design and Development articles hidden behind the wall of "pay us money."

[Jimmy Discordia]

Even if everything else about 4th edition is horrible, they've got me and my money with the virtual game table. The people I want to game with aren't just a short bike ride across the neighborhood anymore. They're in different states and different countries. I've been waiting for a practical development like this since the end of college.

I concur... I just watched the online demos, and I hate to be a fanboy, but this is pretty sweet. I'm reserving judgment 'til I see the new rules, but I'm feeling more optimistic about 4E now.

[rollfrenzy]

This might even belong on its own thread, but why are people jumping up and down and screaming "MY BOOKS!!! THEY ARE ALL RUINED!!!"?

You will still be able to play them (as has been said). Also, if it's support, there are plenty of online sources for that. and Really if you don't think that theres enough material out for 3.5 already, what more do you need?

I guess I just don't understand.

If you hate the new system, you can use all the books you are worried about and still have just as much fun.

If you like the new system, then it's obviously worth it so make the switch and have fun.

As for WoTC charging for the online stuff. It's all the same, and prolly more material (and will prolly be for less) that you got in dungeon and Dragon magazines.

[Matthew]

I concur... I just watched the online demos, and I hate to be a fanboy, but this is pretty sweet. I'm reserving judgment 'til I see the new rules, but I'm feeling more optimistic about 4E now.

Where can I find these Online Demos? Are you talking about the three excerpts and video or is there something new now?

[Jimmy Discordia]

Where can I find these Online Demos? Are you talking about the three excerpts and video or is there something new now?

No, that's what I meant, the YouTube stuff. Sorry if I got your hopes up about more.

[Matthew]

Nah, just piqued my interest. No problem.

[Machete]

*MAN SQUEEEEEEEEEEEL*

Fighters get weapon abilities depending on different weapons!

Finally a reason other than role-play to use certain weapons I've always thought were cool! I'm looking at you handaxe!

[ImperiousLeader]

With all the references to Saga, I went and flipped through it. Intriguing. If the new system is taking a lot of Saga concepts, than I'd say the class most likely to be cut is the Monk. A lot of the monk's abilities could be converted into Talent trees and stuffed into the Fighter Class. Might even make the Monk playable.

[PlatinumJester]

*MAN SQUEEEEEEEEEEEL*

Fighters get weapon abilities depending on different weapons!

Finally a reason other than role-play to use certain weapons I've always thought were cool! I'm looking at you handaxe!

Wow, Fighters dare I say it actually look...good. The Bastard sword ability better not be Kiai Smite.

[Rob Knotts]

A lot of the monk's abilities could be converted into Talent trees and stuffed into the Fighter Class. Might even make the Monk playable.If anything that would drastically improve my overall opinion of the Monk as a D&D character type (if not as seperate class). Aside from the whole Western Fantasy debate, the thing that always bugged me the most about the Monk is that it came with own very specific set of combat rules shared by no other core class.

[Matthew]

All we know so far is that one of the abilities of the Sword is 'Rain of Blows', which looks supiciously like the Saga Ability Double Attack(?) where you basically take -5 to Hit and make two Attacks.

[Xian]

Ok, I really have to address the issue of people complaining about the price and having to buy new books and maybe paying a subscription price for the optional online content (and I've seen a whole lot of those). In two words: shut up.

In many more words and in a less abrasive manner, I'm a video gamer as well, so I have no sympathy for financial woes. Let's look at the generalized statistics, shall we?

Video gaming:
Core systems - $180-$600. Additional controllers for multiplayer $30+ each.
Games - $20-$50 each.
Online content - $50-$60/year subscription
Limited backwards compatibility
Unable to create original content (generally speaking)
No cross-platform support
Consoles outdated when new system comes out; break after so many years.

D&D gaming:
Core systems - $35-$105 (or $245). Additional PHBs for easier multiplayer, $35 each.
Adventure modules - Free-$100. From "create your own" to "World's Largest Dungeon"
Online content - personal guesstimation $50-$60/year, no more than $100.
Complete forwards & backwards compatability/cross platform support
Completely open to original content
Systems last forever

Just because a new system is coming out doesn't mean it will be horrible, and if you can't afford it, save up money or keep using your system that is still just as functional, relevant and entertaining as the day you bought it. Hell, people still play 1e rules without any trouble, and converting pre-printed modules to fit your current rule set doesn't take a lot of work.

Now, as for actual content of the books, I'll just shut my mouth. I'm too new to D&D to complain or praise the format of 3.5e rules. I will say, however, that I am so looking forward to the digital tools. I don't have a group I can meet with in person, so I run and play in a lot of PbP games, so this stuff is a godsend for me. Mapping alone has been a royal pain in my ass.

[ImperiousLeader]

I'm hoping that published adventures, and even 3rd party adventures, like Paizo's adventure paths would be brought into the online game. Honestly, the possibility of doing real pen-and-paper style D&D over the computer has me really salivating, given the issues I'm having trying to schedule some games. NWN2 is not what I wanted, this looks like it may be.

[Acco Spoot]

I'm on the fence about this, I mean I'd hardly began on my 3.5 Collection so no loss there, plus if I get in early then I won't be as intimidated by the more hardcore players, this online subscription thing has me a little worried, I have no actual income whatsoever and, I know this sounds kinda petty, but the cover art featured on the Presentation Video made me kinda put off, in comparrison to the 3rd Ed stuff it just seems clinical and a step backwards, but hey, I'm sure the game itself can't be that bad.... surely?

[kingpain]

Because it was your choice to spend the money on all the books. If 4.5 is anything like 3.5, then you will do just fine running it out of 4.0+SRD and not need the 4.5 core books.

It makes no sense to let a grudge prevent you from buying a very worthwhile product, if 4th Edition turns out to be one.

Like 3rd edition right? And then, oops, this didn't work as well, buy 3.5. It isn't a grudge, I enjoyed 3.0, and 3.5 barely changed anything. I've spent way to much on a hobby to start from scratch again. I've played since I was in single digits, phone calls were a dime, pop was a quarted and THAC0 was understood by gamers. For a simple hobby to keep in touch with old friends, I can't warrant buying all over again

(And I didn't convert our 2nd to 3rd. Our group decided that a new edition should have a fresh start)

[Cybren]

I'm not to keen on automatically scaling skills, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Dausuul]

Now, I know the wizards boards, and a few choice products are at the forefront of the "testing" stage for this edition, but what would have been the harm in actually telling folks, "hey, we're in the most basic of planning stages right now, but we're willing to listen to your input, so, let's hear it".

The harm would be that once 4E is announced, 3.5E sales drop precipitously. Who's going to buy a bunch of 3.5E books when they're going to become obsolete soon? WotC has to walk a fine line between "announce too close to the release date, so all the people who just bought 3.5 books are up in arms," and "announce too far ahead of the release date, so we go broke in the interim."

[Pendragonx]

And how exactly are you obligated to buy anything? It's not like the books you already have are magically stripped of contents, forcing you to go out and get new books.

Hehe. I quite agree with you. I was never implying anyone was. I was actually replying to a poster above that post who said something about why people were so opposed to getting Fourth Edition :) Sorry that wasn't clear. I'll need to use the Quotes a little more I guess :)

[Fhaolan]

All that to say, cool, a new edition is a very exciting time, when even the most mundane of design points is interesting and giggled over, but, dangit WOTC, bother to include the folks playing the game in the decision making process.

*grin* Conspiracy Theory Time:

They have been. There are a lot of homebrew boards out there, including the one on this forum. There are lots of people posting to these forums. Just because a person doesn't leap out at you and scream "I WORK FOR WOTC" in your face every time they post, doesn't mean they don't. For all we know the Giant, Vorpal, Fax, Bears and many others here have been hard at work on 4th edition, and unable to tell us that because of Non-Disclosure Agreements.

Chunks of what they've been working on, on these very boards may be incorporated into 4rh edition, after having been examined and commented on by the many different types of gamers here. We won't know until we see some of the final rulebooks.

[Sulecrist]

*grin* Conspiracy Theory Time:

They have been. There are a lot of homebrew boards out there, including the one on this forum. There are lots of people posting to these forums. Just because a person doesn't leap out at you and scream "I WORK FOR WOTC" in your face every time they post, doesn't mean they don't. For all we know the Giant, Vorpal, Fax, Bears and many others here have been hard at work on 4th edition, and unable to tell us that because of Non-Disclosure Agreements.

Chunks of what they've been working on, on these very boards may be incorporated into 4rh edition, after having been examined and commented on by the many different types of gamers here. We won't know until we see some of the final rulebooks.

That'd be sweet.

Cue shocking revelations! BWL is really Monte! Fax is really David Noonan! Giant isn't sick at all, he's just been bathing in development dollars!

In all seriousness, I'm quite optimistic. My three-year campaign's been winding down and the current Age will probably end by RL Christmas--plenty of time for a nice break before the next Age (and edition) begins.

[illathid]

*grin* Conspiracy Theory Time:

They have been. There are a lot of homebrew boards out there, including the one on this forum. There are lots of people posting to these forums. Just because a person doesn't leap out at you and scream "I WORK FOR WOTC" in your face every time they post, doesn't mean they don't. For all we know the Giant, Vorpal, Fax, Bears and many others here have been hard at work on 4th edition, and unable to tell us that because of Non-Disclosure Agreements.

Chunks of what they've been working on, on these very boards may be incorporated into 4rh edition, after having been examined and commented on by the many different types of gamers here. We won't know until we see some of the final rulebooks.

I'm fairly sure that the Logic Ninja as well some other well respected posters on the Character Optimization board were hired to help look over the Rules Compendium that will be coming out soon. They could have also been used to help work on 4E as well. I forget where I read that however.

[ray53208]

anger. distrust. a gnawing sense that ive got entire shelf loads of useless obsolete books that cost me almost a thousand dollars. a burning churning aprehension that if i want to continue playing with any level of company support ill have to shell out more hard earned money for another version every few years. betrayal may not be too strong of a word.

there are other games and other companies. they will recieve my money.

[horseboy]

anger. distrust. a gnawing sense that ive got entire shelf loads of useless obsolete books that cost me almost a thousand dollars. a burning churning apprehension that if i want to continue playing with any level of company support ill have to shell out more hard earned money for another version every few years. betrayal may not be too strong of a word.

there are other games and other companies. they will recieve my money.

What, you guys really thought D&D would really NEVER change? You thought this would go on perpetually with endless splatbooks? Why are you surprised?

[Umbral_Arcanist]

here is my opinion based off of the five minutes (approx) of reading i did (which i know everyone is dying for):

I've read the tidbits on race and class changes and they sound promising, it seems almost like 3.0/3.5 version 2, which hopefully means the widely praised portions of 3.0/3.5 will stay and the broken/crappy bits will go. hopefully alternate rules/classes will be integrated into core (psionics and warlocks please)

i am optimistic, though i am a consumer w**** (or Companion if you prefer)

[Zeful]

*grin* Conspiracy Theory Time:

They have been. There are a lot of homebrew boards out there, including the one on this forum. There are lots of people posting to these forums. Just because a person doesn't leap out at you and scream "I WORK FOR WOTC" in your face every time they post, doesn't mean they don't. For all we know the Giant, Vorpal, Fax, Bears and many others here have been hard at work on 4th edition, and unable to tell us that because of Non-Disclosure Agreements.

Chunks of what they've been working on, on these very boards may be incorporated into 4rh edition, after having been examined and commented on by the many different types of gamers here. We won't know until we see some of the final rulebooks.

While that'd be cool and a great way to include the populace, but it can be a good way to alienate homebrewers. An example would be me opening the 4th ed.'s players hand book and seeing my Blaze of Glory spell listed under the paladin's spell section. I'd be pissed if that happened and there'd be nothing I could do about it because the material isn't copyrighted under my real name and all I've got on my side is a post three years before 4th ed. existed that has identical wording, under a false identity that cannot be traced to me. If that happenes the people who make homebrew won't and WoTC will be shown to be uncreative, word will get around and WoTC will be sold off by Hasbro because it's hemoraging profits left and right.

So in the end, if you saw it on a Homebrew board it won't be in 4th ed.

[Fhaolan]

While that'd be cool and a great way to include the populace, but it can be a good way to alienate homebrewers. An example would be me opening the 4th ed.'s players hand book and seeing my Blaze of Glory spell listed under the paladin's spell section. I'd be pissed if that happened and there'd be nothing I could do about it because the material isn't copyrighted under my real name and all I've got on my side is a post three years before 4th ed. existed that has identical wording, under a false identity that cannot be traced to me. If that happenes the people who make homebrew won't and WoTC will be shown to be uncreative, word will get around and WoTC will be sold off by Hasbro because it's hemoraging profits left and right.

So in the end, if you saw it on a Homebrew board it won't be in 4th ed.


*laugh* Not *your* homebrew stuff. *Their* homebrew stuff. The stuff that they 'plant' in the forums for review.

[RandomNPC]

*laugh* Not *your* homebrew stuff. *Their* homebrew stuff. The stuff that they 'plant' in the forums for review.

that makes total sense.

[ArmorArmadillo]

*laugh* Not *your* homebrew stuff. *Their* homebrew stuff. The stuff that they 'plant' in the forums for review.
The OGL states in no uncertain terms that they can use anything and everything anyone publishes in WotC material however they like.

I don't see it as a conspiracy, just something homebrewers must accept about the nature of their work. Frankly, I'd be flattered about something I wrote becoming core.

[Overlord]

I've heard a lot of talk about "Quit complaining! You can still use your D&D 3.5 stuff if you want!"

And that's true. But you're missing the point.

A small minority of grognards can, and probably will, keep playing 3.5 forever. And a lot more will do so for the first year or so after 4.0 comes out.

But the rest of the community will either completely switch to Shadowrun, WoD, or whatever, or move on to 4th Edition.

Slowly, the posters on message boards like this one and ENWorld, not to mention Wizards, will cease discussing and producing homebrew for 3.5.

Look at how many people discuss 2nd Edition on this forum. You can count the number of threads per month on one hand. And most of us posters can't really even help the optimization help questions that almost all of those posts I've seen turn out to be. It's just been so long since most of the others and myself have cracked open a 2nd edition rulebook that we can't be of much use. And how many 1st Edition posts have you seen? Any support 2nd edition still had will completely dry up.

What's worse is that any and all third party sources we might have once relied on will switch over pretty quickly. If you really liked your, say, Malhavoc Press' Arcana Evolved line, well, sooner or later you're going to have to switch, otherwise the product line will leave you in the dust, and you won't be able to use much of the crunch in their products.

Worst of all, sooner or later most of your gaming group will probably switch. If you're like me and got your friends into D&D in the first place, it won't be such a big deal; they'll play whatever version I run their games in. But the rest of you might not be so fortunate. You might be left as the odd man out if you cling too long to 3.5.

Now, I think 4th Edition could be a good thing. But there are several things Wizards (or more likely Hasbro) could have done better:


No matter what some of you may say, I think that it's too soon. Yeah, 3.0 came out nearly eight years ago. And if they hadn't released 3.5, then I would be much happier about this situation. But the fact is, we just switched over to 3.5 four years ago. Yes, four years is a good long while, but still, I am heavily invested in it. I wanted to get several more years of use out of these books before support for the version trickled away.
I think it was an excruciatingly greedy move to cancel the License on Dragon and Dungeon, only to replace them with Wizards' own version, and then proceed to hike the cost. A one year to subscription to both magazines cost, what, $80 U.S.? And that's for a printed magazine with a solid reputation and history of high standards. This D&D insider is supposed to cost $10 a month. That's $120 a year. For a web-only publication of unspecified size, uncertain quality (how much art will there be? What's the layout-is it going to be a nice pdf or text-only web articles? More importantly, how good is the material going to be?), and that will undoubtedly be filled with plugs for Wizards products? I don't think so. I certainly hope that price is incorrect.
They said they had been working on this since early 2005. Now, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one, and assume that by their statements they meant that they thought, "Hey, let's try putting these cool new ideas in ToB. If it goes over well, hey, maybe we could use them in 4th Edition!" But if they had a planning meeting in 2005 titled "4th Edition," then shame on them. And you know what? I think that's exactly what happened. And it darn near infuriates me that they would consider switching to a new edition a year and a half after they released 3.5. This isn't console hardware production; roleplaying game technology does not follow Moore's Law.


So, in the end, I'm not really very optimistic about 4th Edition. But if they can impress me, they'll make a sale; I'm not that anti-Wizards or anything. I'm just rather disappointed in the way Hasbro has either forced or allowed Wizards to take D&D down this path. Gleemax? D&D does not need to turn into an MMORPG. I'm sure the Wizards designers are doing the best they can under the conditions they're being placed in. I have a lot of respect for them (based almost entirely on their past work, sadly), and I know I certainly couldn't do a better job. But other companies, such as Malhavoc and especially Paizo are doing a better job, and it's obvious that there are many others, like Vorpal and Fax, who could do a better job if somebody let them.

[ALOR]

What, you guys really thought D&D would really NEVER change? You thought this would go on perpetually with endless splatbooks? Why are you surprised?

Well, no, i did think it would change. What i didn't think would happen would be a endless parade of new edditions every 5 years. Thats why at this point I'm done with WotC.
I may change my mind when 4e comes out, it may wow me so much that i absolutely must have it. Of course, I might like 5e or 6e more. I'll just wait 7 years and see

[skywalker]

Okay, okay, so I think, what obviously needs to happen here, is Fax, Vorpal and the like need to come out and say "Hey, we've been WotC plants this whole time." If they did that, how would you all feel?


I'm sure there's somebody somewhere who'd be like "OMG YOU LIED TO ME!!!1!!1"

[ray53208]

Overlord and ALOR hit the nail squarely on the head.

tomorrow, bright and early i sell off all my d&d stuff at the local HPB. i know ill get hosed, but it beats it all just collecting dust. and all the freed up space on my game shelf will go to more deserving smaller gaming companies.

i firmly believe now that big corporations and gaming do not mix; or rather, when they do the fans get rooked.

im saddened by the fact that i am saying this, but i really think im through with d&d.

[Iku Rex]

They said they had been working on this since early 2005. Now, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one, and assume that by their statements they meant that they thought, "Hey, let's try putting these cool new ideas in ToB. If it goes over well, hey, maybe we could use them in 4th Edition!" But if they had a planning meeting in 2005 titled "4th Edition," then shame on them. And you know what? I think that's exactly what happened. And it darn near infuriates me that they would consider switching to a new edition a year and a half after they released 3.5. This isn't console hardware production; roleplaying game technology does not follow Moore's Law.Here's what Monte Cook said after 3.5 came out. I think it's very telling:


A few weeks ago, in an interview at gamingreport.com I said that 3.5 was motivated by financial need rather than by design need -- in short, to make money rather than because the game really needed an update. I said that I had this information from a reliable source.

That source was me. I was there.

See, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, which might make you mad: 3.5 was planned from the beginning.

Even before 3.0 went to the printer, the business team overseeing D&D was talking about 3.5. Not surprisingly, most of the designers -- particularly the actual 3.0 team (Jonathan Tweet, Skip Williams, and I) thought this was a poor idea. Also not surprisingly, our concerns were not enough to affect the plan. The idea, they assured us, was to make a revised edition that was nothing but a cleanup of any errata that might have been found after the book's release, a clarification of issues that seemed to confuse large numbers of players, and, most likely, all new art. It was slated to come out in 2004 or 2005, to give a boost to sales at a point where -- judging historically from the sales trends of previous editions -- they probably would be slumping a bit. It wasn't to replace everyone's books, and it wouldn't raise any compatibility or conversion issues.

Here I sit, in 2003, with my reviewer's copies of the 3.5 books next to my computer, and that's not what I see.

Source: http://www.montecook.com/arch_review26.html

I'm sure they're planning v4.5 already. They got away with it the last time - there's no reason not to try again.

[horseboy]

i firmly believe now that big corporations and gaming do not mix; or rather, when they do the fans get rooked.
I'm sorry, but I really don't see how you were "rooked".


im saddened by the fact that i am saying this, but i really think im through with d&d.
Well, no. Not every company holds an open public beta (http://www.earthdawn.com/index.php?categoryid=19&p13_sectionid=4&p13_fileid=21). However, given just how INCREDIBLY broken the system was, how poorly written and how "sucktastic" this pile is, why wouldn't you want it fixed sooner?

[The Extinguisher]

I honestly don't think this will go over to well. I mean, it takes away the very key parts of the game, gathering everyone together, eating pizza, laughing at peoples jokes, bribing/threatening/seducing the DM into giving you good stuff, and chucking dice and/or other miscenallious objects for bad rolls.

This is basicly D&D Online, with some stuff from old editions chucked in and marketed to sell better.

[Green Bean]

I honestly don't think this will go over to well. I mean, it takes away the very key parts of the game, gathering everyone together, eating pizza, laughing at peoples jokes, bribing/threatening/seducing the DM into giving you good stuff, and chucking dice and/or other miscenallious objects for bad rolls.

This is basicly D&D Online, with some stuff from old editions chucked in and marketed to sell better.

Yeah, it's a shame they changed rule 0 from 'the DM is always right' to 'you can't play with friends in person ever again' :smalltongue:

[ray53208]

I'm sorry, but I really don't see how you were "rooked".

Well, no. Not every company holds an open public beta (http://www.earthdawn.com/index.php?categoryid=19&p13_sectionid=4&p13_fileid=21). However, given just how INCREDIBLY broken the system was, how poorly written and how "sucktastic" this pile is, why wouldn't you want it fixed sooner?

1. see Iku Rex's post before yours.

2. im not done with d&d? okay, kreskin.

what are you talking about? previous versions of d&d were "sucktastic" and broken? if thats what your saying then that is entirely your opinion, and it is not shared by me. i dont think it was broken and it didnt need fixing (any clarifications or eratta was already online for free). i believe this was a purely economic move planned in advance to seperate the gamer from his cash. its not cool and any faith i had in wotc/hasbro is gone. because i was rooked.

[horseboy]

1. see Iku Rex's post before yours.

2. im not done with d&d? okay, kreskin.
?


what are you talking about? previous versions of d&d were "sucktastic" and broken? if thats what your saying then that is entirely your opinion, and it is not shared by me. i dont think it was broken and it didnt need fixing (any clarifications or eratta was already online for free). i believe this was a purely economic move planned in advance to seperate the gamer from his cash. its not cool and any faith i had in wotc/hasbro is gone. because i was rooked.
If it takes more effort to make something that's not broken than it takes to make something broken. Then the game is broken. 3.X was one of the most broken games I've ever seen. To make it playable it had to be scrapped.

Edit: Now that maintenance is done:
Of course it was purely economic. D&D has been nothing more than a broke-#@@ cash cow since, oh, at least Spells and Powers. You had to have known that. You either didn't care that that's what it was or chose not to see it. Now all of a sudden you're upset with WotC for being WotC. That's like blaming a shark for being a shark.

Hmm, maybe Joe (http://www.digitalpimponline.com/strips.php?start=248&title=movie) can express it better than me.

[Matthew]

Keep cooler heads folks. It's only a new edition, they come around every ten years or so. Discussion of 1e and 2e will not suddenly dry up, just take a walk over to Dragonsfoot to see that. This site will most likely become all about 4e, but there will be others catering exclusively to 3e. Frankly, though, I don't really see enough 'good' 3e material coming out from Wizards of the Coast to care that they will soon stop supporting this edition. The game is as playable as it ever was and there are plenty of Adventure Modules out there to pick up.

Okay, anyone watched these videos:

Presentation Videos: (D&D will apparently no longer require an imagination)

Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ3J8t2-RVs)
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWZ2WdeTo1M)

Alternative Presentation Videos:

Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_e5wAUwdmM)
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slLNNbcgiSs)
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aLXuMb6WWw)
Dungeons & Dragons Presentation Video - Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj-9vMYGu0Q)

Interview with Andy Collins: (Also known as "Put some God Damn Pants on!")

Dungeons & Dragons Interview Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG3qJ6Ku-MY)
Dungeons & Dragons Interview Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_ZySeLw5A4)

Andy Collins - "Being a Wizard is about blasting people with magical energy."

[PlatinumJester]

The on line thing looks retarded. Maybe for an hour long session but who would do that for an 8 hour session. No where near as fun as playing with your mates.

[Matthew]

Looks to me like an old CRPG like X-Com (which was admittedly a lot of fun). They might as well animate the figures and go the full hog into a MOMCRPG. Still, as an alternative to Face to Face play, it's not a bad idea and commercially, I suspect, this is going to be a winner.

[Edit]
Anyone ever see that WoW South Park Episode? I'm kind of reminded of that.

[Enlong]

What's all this about supposedly "only" being able to play online? I though it was coming out with rulebooks just like 3.x, and the online thing was something you "can" do, and not the "only way" to play?
Not to mention the fact that one of those teaser videos showed a group sitting 'round a table, basically using their laptops as rulebooks (which is one of the features they're boasting, being able to upload the info from a rulebook to your computer), and that some of the play-testing reports I've read mentioned that feature as well, basically using the computer as a way to cut down on the amount of clutter at a game table.

[Matthew]

What's all this about supposedly "only" being able to play online?

Huh? Where'd you hear that? That would be pretty silly. I think you may have misinterpreted something somewhere along the line. A common complaint at the moment is that a lot of material will only be available to subscribers.

[Enlong]

Huh? Where'd you hear that? That would be pretty silly. I think you may have misinterpreted something somewhere along the line. A common complaint at the moment is that a lot of material will only be available to subscribers.

Like what? I mean, the core 3 is going to be available to anyone with money to buy the physical books, right? What's the exclusive material?

Also, I could've sworn that someone said that it wasn't going to be the same; something about "It'll be fun, for like a 1-hour session, but for an eight-hour session, it's just not the same as being face-to-face with your chums" or something to that effect. I think someone else lamented the loss of the feel that you get when playing the game around pizza, or something. I dunno. I just can distinctly remember at least one person denouncing the online computer version of the game, when it looks as though playing normally is still a very real option. Maybe it was another board, but I distinctly remember this.

[Matthew]

Like what? I mean, the core 3 is going to be available to anyone with money to buy the physical books, right? What's the exclusive material?

Basically it looks like it's going to be the sort of stuff they have been releasing and posting up for free until now, i.e. all the web Enhancement Material.


Also, I could've sworn that someone said that it wasn't going to be the same; something about "It'll be fun, for like a 1-hour session, but for an eight-hour session, it's just not the same as being face-to-face with your chums" or something to that effect. I think someone else lamented the loss of the feel that you get when playing the game around pizza, or something. I dunno. I just can distinctly remember at least one person denouncing the online computer version of the game, when it looks as though playing normally is still a very real option. Maybe it was another board, but I distinctly remember this.

Yeah, PlatinumJester said so just above, but not in the context of D&D as a whole, just with regard to this new aspect of the game they are pushing [i.e. "now you can play online for a fee"]

[ALOR]

Here's what Monte Cook said after 3.5 came out. I think it's very telling:

I'm sure they're planning v4.5 already. They got away with it the last time - there's no reason not to try again.

wow, that pretty much just confirms my fears
:smallfrown:

[jamroar]

Greyhawk will not be default setting in core. We want to leverage the assets of the assumed parts of a D&D world – Mordenkainen, Bigby, Vecna, Llolth, Tiamat, Asmodeus, etc. However, we also want to call upon the great mythology that is more commonly known such as Thor, etc.


Ugh. It looks like they're going for fully generic for the core setting.

Or perhaps the core campaign setting is the OOTSverse? :smalltongue:

Hopefully, we can get another Greyhawk Gazetteer, Living or otherwise in the interim, or finally a full fledged campaign book(!).

[Fhaolan]

Actually, that's a fascinating question... What does this mean to the various Living campaigns going on right now? Has this been mentioned anywhere? Are they going to continue with 3.5, or are they going to upgrade en-mass somehow?

I don't play Living myself, yet, but I keep looking at it speculatively. I'm not sure it suits my playing style, especially given the write-up of the region I'm currently living in.

[Dervag]

OK, I'm a little vague about what's going on here.

My first question is: Is there actually evidence that Wizards is planning to 'force' 4th Edition to be played online? Have they come out and said that they are not actually publishing actual books? Or are they merely supplying means to play online and charging money for the privilege of doing so?

[Matthew]

They're just supporting it, but very strongly. The idea being that 'digital D&D' will be an even better experience is being pushed out quite heavily.

[ALOR]

OK, I'm a little vague about what's going on here.

My first question is: Is there actually evidence that Wizards is planning to 'force' 4th Edition to be played online? Have they come out and said that they are not actually publishing actual books? Or are they merely supplying means to play online and charging money for the privilege of doing so?

my understanding is that they are offering enhancments online, and new ways to play online for a subscription price, but thier will still be printed books

[Morty]

Bleh. No matter how strongly they support it, I'm not giving a crap about it. As long as they release actual books for normal sessions, I'm fine with it, though.

[jamroar]

OK, I'm a little vague about what's going on here.

My first question is: Is there actually evidence that Wizards is planning to 'force' 4th Edition to be played online? Have they come out and said that they are not actually publishing actual books? Or are they merely supplying means to play online and charging money for the privilege of doing so?

The Spooky Wizard is not 'forcing' anyone to play D&D online. Books will still be published. It's just that they will be providing extra content/web tools/web gaming platform to subscribers only.

P.S. The web gaming platform thing sounds like a good idea, but hopefully it actually works out for them. Remember the vaporware Master Toolkit demoed on the CD included in the first run of the 3.0 PHB?

[Fax Celestis]

Fax is really David Noonan!

Charity is Skip Williams! :smalltongue:

[Enlong]

Heh, found some good news for everyone here. According to the Wizards of the Coast staff, there will be no 4.5 edition. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13451537&postcount=98)

[horseboy]

Heh, found some good news for everyone here. According to the Wizards of the Coast staff, there will be no 4.5 edition. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13451537&postcount=98)

Yeah, I've got a bridge to sell ya.

[Enlong]

Yeah, I've got a bridge to sell ya.
huh?
:smallconfused:

What makes you automatically think they're lying through their teeth at you?

[Matthew]

I think he means, 'don't be gullible, they'd never admit to working on 4.5 until nine months before release.' If they do decide to release 4.5, my money is on 2014 to celebrate '40 years of D&D' (or 35 years of AD&D).

[Enlong]

I suppose so, but I'd put the emphasis on that "if". Call me a pathetic optimist if you will.

[horseboy]

I suppose so, but I'd put the emphasis on that "if". Call me a pathetic optimist if you will.

Optimism isn't pathetic. Being blinded by optimism is. :smallamused:
"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst."

[Enlong]

Optimism isn't pathetic. Being blinded by optimism is. :smallamused:
"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst."Y'mean like: Hoping that that statement is true, but not spending a whole lot? (at least we're getting an updated SRD)

[skywalker]

I would like to point you to some very specific language.


There will be no 4.5. It is 4th Edition.

Bolding mine.

It is, IE it currently is. There was no qualifier on "There will be no 4.5." To me, this is carte blanche(and forgive me, but wizards uses just as bad, or worse logic) to mean "There will be no 4.5... next week." Also, of course it is 4th edition. What other edition would it be. It is currently 4th edition. Obviously it isn't 4.5, that wouldn't make any sense, unless they developed 4.5 completely in house and then decided to make enough changes pre-release to indicate a half-version jump.

The fact that the company just spent about two years developing 4th edition while claiming that it wasn't in development says a lot. That is what makes most of us think they're lying through their teeth here.

Plus the fact that, the way I read it, he isn't technically lying, even if it does come.

[horseboy]

Y'mean like: Hoping that that statement is true, but not spending a whole lot? (at least we're getting an updated SRD)

Pretty much. The way Hasbro writes these books, you know they're going to be "obsolete". I never understood why non-obsessive-compulsives always bought all these books, and then get upset they've got to do it again.

I don't know, maybe it's because I've done this so many times in gaming. (I'm looking at you Warhammer) But I'm always surprised that people don't see this stuff coming. New editions always come out. Either it's because the system itself is groaning under it's own weight or the company always needs money. *cough*GW*cough*. It's the nature of the beast.

[Fax Celestis]

Pretty much. The way Hasbro writes these books, you know they're going to be "obsolete". I never understood why non-obsessive-compulsives always bought all these books, and then get upset they've got to do it again.

I don't know, maybe it's because I've done this so many times in gaming. (I'm looking at you Warhammer) But I'm always surprised that people don't see this stuff coming. New editions always come out. Either it's because the system itself is groaning under it's own weight or the company always needs money. *cough*GW*cough*. It's the nature of the beast.

Exactly. The same thing happens with everything else too: computers, video game consoles, video games, shoes, cell phones, watches, jewelry...What we have today will be replaced tomorrow.

That doesn't make obsolescence any more tolerable, just not surprising.

[Enlong]

Well, I'm not disputing that 4th will eventually become obsolete (that's inevitable). What I am disputing is the idea that a 4.5 edition is not likely (only meaning that I think it'll stay 4th until 5th ed comes out) also, the same guy re-clarified, saying:
"We are not working on 4.X it's 4th edition."
Which I take to mean the same thing as 1st and 2nd edition weren't 1.X or 2.X, they were just 1st and 2nd.

[horseboy]

Well, I'm not disputing that 4th will eventually become obsolete (that's inevitable). What I am disputing is the idea that a 4.5 edition is not likely (only meaning that I think it'll stay 4th until 5th ed comes out) also, the same guy re-clarified, saying:
"We are not working on 4.X it's 4th edition."
Which I take to mean the same thing as 1st and 2nd edition weren't 1.X or 2.X, they were just 1st and 2nd.

They didn't call it that, but The Options were pretty much 2.5

[Overlord]

Well, I don't think Wizards will be stupid enough to release another "X.5" edition. But that doesn't mean they can't or won't just release a 5th Edition in a 3.5-style timeframe.

[SoulCatcher78]

The new is coming and there's not really anything that can be done about it. If you want to move to the new system but use all your "old" material, find a way to make it fit. For those of us who've survived this transition (multiple times), it's old hat. Take what you want, slap it into a new package (4E) and keep rolling. Keep that in mind when you hear about someone selling all there stuff off since its "obsolete" and you can find yourself in enough game material to last for years of campaigning.

If you want to play RAW or BTB, by all means do so but prepare to repurchase all your supplemental information again. This might make the game a bit smoother (as long as your game is really RAW and not just the rules you like) but you're going to be going back to your current settings/modules/source material until they are reproduced in the new 4E packaging.

For a comparison when people are complaining that they started work on this system 2 years ago, consider Microsoft. The day after the Vista launch they began work on the next OS. Every company is the same, they generate profit in order to stay in business. Just because WotC is a company that produces a game and not a more substantial (i.e. physical product like a car or other "durable" good) product doesn't change the rules of operating in a market economy.

[Stephen_E]

Can anyone point to an example of the denial that they were working on 4.0.

I'm curious of the exact language, given that as far as I was aware it was an open secret that 4.0 was been worked on for several years.

Stephen

[horseboy]

Edit: Oops, nevermind

[horseboy]

Well, I don't think Wizards will be stupid enough to release another "X.5" edition. But that doesn't mean they can't or won't just release a 5th Edition in a 3.5-style timeframe.

Nah, my take is they'll continue to sell the 4.0 rule books for the full time span, and the ".5" material will be the fee based stuff off their website.

[Overlord]

Nah, my take is they'll continue to sell the 4.0 rule books for the full time span, and the ".5" material will be the fee based stuff off their website.

That may happen. But as I said, I highly doubt that anything they make in the reasonably near future (the next, say, 10 or so years) will have a ".5" in the name. I think they know that, while 3.5 turned out okay, that the name was a poor decision.

[Sequinox]

I haven't read the whole thread, but here's my proverbial two copper pieces.

I read the article by Bill Slavicksek on wizards.com and felt nauseos when I read about the 'electronic DnD board.' Seriously, I felt sick to my stomach.

I have only played DnD for two years, but I have played 3.5, a v.1-2-3-3.5 crossbreed, and a 3.5-weird version crossbreed, and I have to say that I liked every last one. My top reason: No electricity or internet connection required. Sure I love RPG video games, but DnD is supposed to be different!

______________________

Possible founder of the Oracle fanclub. if there already is one, I guess not.

78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

I started mine in a dungeon.

[Enlong]

I haven't read the whole thread, but here's my proverbial two copper pieces.

I read the article by Bill Slavicksek on wizards.com and felt nauseos when I read about the 'electronic DnD board.' Seriously, I felt sick to my stomach.

I have only played DnD for two years, but I have played 3.5, a v.1-2-3-3.5 crossbreed, and a 3.5-weird version crossbreed, and I have to say that I liked every last one. My top reason: No electricity or internet connection required. Sure I love RPG video games, but DnD is supposed to be different!

______________________

Possible founder of the Oracle fanclub. if there already is one, I guess not.

78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

I started mine in a dungeon.*ahem* Yes, there is an electronic version, but the wireless, pen-and paper DND that we all know and love is still going to be playable. You don't HAVE to play the online version. You don't HAVE to set up a subscription. You don't even HAVE to do anything but buy the core books in order to play. If ya don't like the optional stuff, don't use it.

[Matthew]

*ahem* Yes, there is an electronic version, but the wireless, pen-and paper DND that we all know and love is still going to be playable.

Yet another word appropriated and lost. I have to admit I was a bit confused until I realised you didn't mean Wireless Internet. :smallbiggrin:

[The Extinguisher]

Yes, we know that you don't have to play online, but they are putting a lot of influence on the online versions, basicly saying this is the one you should play, if you want any extra stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if they release most of the extra books as 'online only.'

[Skjaldbakka]

That would be an interesting marketing strategy.


1) Produce new edition
2) Provide new material in an online form.
3) Charge for 'subscriptions' to online material.

You wind up with reduced printing costs, and a group of people that give you money every month to have access to the expanded material.

[Matthew]

Yep, and that appears to be what they are planning on doing.

[Overlord]

Yep, and that appears to be what they are planning on doing.

You bet. And that's one of the core sources of anger amongst the fans.

I'll probably just switch to 4th Edition within a year or so after the release, maybe more. But I'll be darned if they get me to pay for their online services that I don't even want D&D to be a part of. I see no reason to support something I don't like with my good money. The only time I see myself going for a subscription is as a one-month deal to get a particular issue of Dungeon or Dragon that has an intriguing article written by a respected author. Like, say, a new Maure Castle adventure. But more than that...no.

[Solo]

Yes, we know that you don't have to play online, but they are putting a lot of influence on the online versions, basicly saying this is the one you should play, if you want any extra stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if they release most of the extra books as 'online only.'

{Scrubbed}

[TSGames]

The website is now accessible if anyone cares. Also,{Scrubbed}

[Skjaldbakka]

I'll give 4.0 4th edition the same treatment I gave 3rd. Download, or borrow from a friend, and then buy it if I like it. I wound up buying 3rd, and 3.5.

[Rayek]

Not to mention the fact that one of those teaser videos showed a group sitting 'round a table, basically using their laptops as rulebooks (which is one of the features they're boasting, being able to upload the info from a rulebook to your computer), and that some of the play-testing reports I've read mentioned that feature as well, basically using the computer as a way to cut down on the amount of clutter at a game table.

If anything, having everyone play with laptops at their sides will make table clutter worse, not better.


I have played 3.5, a v.1-2-3-3.5 crossbreed, and a 3.5-weird version crossbreed, and I have to say that I liked every last one. My top reason: No electricity or internet connection required. Sure I love RPG video games, but DnD is supposed to be different!


My thoughts exactly.

[PinkysBrain]

I have only played DnD for two years, but I have played 3.5, a v.1-2-3-3.5 crossbreed, and a 3.5-weird version crossbreed, and I have to say that I liked every last one. My top reason: No electricity or internet connection required. Sure I love RPG video games, but DnD is supposed to be different!
So what do you think of existing electronic DM helpers?

IMO inittool and maptool (http://rptools.net/doku.php?id=home) are really useful ... but in the end you still have to do a lot of preparation, putting the encounters into inittool and creating the maps. Also inittool doesn't have real knowledge of spells and effects.

If Wizards can provide provide modules with full electronic maps and encounters and allow you to simply apply spells/attacks/maneuvers from splatbooks you own by pointing and clicking and automating all the associated round by round book keeping it will make DMing a whole lot easier and combat a whole lot more streamlined.

Even if you want to play without a map and fudge most of the movement having such a tool as a DM would be very helpful. The only way it wouldn't be helpful is if you fudge nearly everything or if you are a savant who can do it all in his head :)