PDA

View Full Version : 4th edition!



Pages : [1] 2 3 4

Thrivol
2007-08-15, 07:03 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome

Hmm...


EDIT: On second thought, 4th edition may not come out. GenCon is 4 days long. It is tomorrow, I think.

GryffonDurime
2007-08-15, 07:04 PM
Curses, I got 'scooped!

I was just about to post this.

Burrito
2007-08-15, 07:05 PM
Ahh, I see the end of the world has a nifty "count down clock" on the Wizards of the Coast web site.

Hallavast
2007-08-15, 07:08 PM
So... is this supposed to be a countdown to fourth edition or something? I haven't heard any hype to this extent...

GryffonDurime
2007-08-15, 07:10 PM
That's the point...you do something unexpected on the Internet and it's generally more effective than having to do your own marketing. Viral advertising, you know.

Is it just me, or is anyone else having Eon8 flashbacks?

Thrivol
2007-08-15, 07:12 PM
That's the point...you do something unexpected on the Internet and it's generally more effective than having to do your own marketing. Viral advertising, you know.

Is it just me, or is anyone else having Eon8 flashbacks?

I had flashbacks of Neverwinter Nights 2 presell (that was a mess).

Fax Celestis
2007-08-15, 07:15 PM
I think they're screwing with us.

Hallavast
2007-08-15, 07:15 PM
That's the point...you do something unexpected on the Internet and it's generally more effective than having to do your own marketing. Viral advertising, you know.

Is it just me, or is anyone else having Eon8 flashbacks?

I'll believe it when i see it. Though perhaps they'll mention a release date at gencon if anything...

Fax Celestis
2007-08-15, 07:18 PM
Maybe it's something to do with the d4.

Hefty Lefty
2007-08-15, 07:19 PM
I've been saying to myself for the past year "Don't buy any new books, as soon as 4th Edition comes out you'll have wasted your money.", so I kind of wish it is 4th, so I can finally stop using the SRD.:smalltongue:

TheOOB
2007-08-15, 07:30 PM
I'd be surprised if 4th edition is coming out, 3e came out only 7 years ago, and 3.5 even less then that.

I have mixed feelings about the concept of 4th edition. On the one hand I really feel D&D needs a rewrite and a fresh start, time has shown that 3e is poorly balanced and rather difficult at times. WotC has shown some steps in the right direction design wise with products like the Tome of Battle, but in order to "fix" D&D they would need another edition.

On the other hand, I really don't want to shell out 90 bucks for three more rulebooks.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-15, 07:32 PM
Hmmm... souce code of page in spoiler...

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<title>4DVENTURE</title>
<meta name="description" content="Dungeons &amp; Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page">
<meta name="keywords" content="">
<meta name="target" content="DnD, D&amp;D, Dungeons, Dragons, Dungeona &amp; Dragons, Dungeons and Dragons"><script language="javascript" src="/global/dndcountdown4.js" type="text/javascript"></script><style>
.countdown {color: #000000; font-size:20px; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; font-family : arial, helvetica, sans serif; text-decoration: none}
.countdown2 {color: Maroon; font-size:20px; font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; font-family : arial, helvetica, sans serif; text-decoration: none}
A.countdown2:hover {color: Red}
</style>
</head>
<body leftmargin="0" topmargin="0" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" style="background: url(/dnd/images/countdown/countdown.jpg) black repeat-y center top;"></body>
<div id="countbox" class="countdown" align="right" style="width: 400px; position: absolute; margin-left: -240px; left: 50%; top: 215px; z-index:4; visibility: visible"></div><script>
var tamount = parseInt(79177);
GetCount();
</script></html>
<!--This page is not cached-->
<!-- 0 seconds -->

There seem to be 2 instances of possibly meaningful 4's. But other than that, not much.

Matthew
2007-08-15, 07:45 PM
It's most likely the all new Electronic Format. They've been talking about it for a while and it's been discussed over on Enworld with regard to Wizards putting out invitations to the media.

i.e. 4D Adventure!

GryffonDurime
2007-08-15, 07:46 PM
There seem to be 2 instances of possibly meaningful 4's. But other than that, not much.

Yeah, but when the graphics of the page are bedecked in dice all rolling a 4...it implies that there's a pretty strong 4 connection.

My money's on an announcement about 4th Edition--such as a glimpse into development and a tenative release schedule well into 2008.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-15, 07:47 PM
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I would feel fine if I'd spent less money on ****ing sourcebooks over the last year.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-15, 07:49 PM
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I would feel fine if I'd spent less money on ****ing sourcebooks over the last year.

It's probably GenCon (4 days long) or some neat trick with the d4. Probably a publicity stunt playing off false hopes, is my bet.

Neon Knight
2007-08-15, 07:51 PM
The End Is Nigh!! Repent! Repent!

Bosaxon
2007-08-15, 07:52 PM
I'd have to go with something about the online inititive, and some loose connection to the concept of four dimensions...

I'm not a betting man, however, at least when it comes to my opinions

Edit: maybe 4e will be a d4 based system....


No, I do not seriously believe that.

Hallavast
2007-08-15, 07:58 PM
On the other hand, I really don't want to shell out 90 bucks for three more rulebooks.

90 Bucks if we're lucky. I wouldn't be surprised to see core rulebooks go for $50 or more.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-15, 08:03 PM
I think they are just using the 4 to represent A in Adventure. I'm not getting anything on that page right now though.

Lord Tirian
2007-08-15, 08:06 PM
Hmmm... there's brand-new art in the background... and it somehow looks bookish, so it could very well be something print-based

Colour me interested... at least, I want to see that timer on zero - NOW!

RTGoodman
2007-08-15, 08:06 PM
Curses, I got 'scooped!

I was just about to post this.

Yep, me too.

I'm slightly worried that this is gonna be the big "4E in a year" announcement or something, but I feel like this is just something to incite us and make everyone go to the WotC page tomorrow evening to see the debut of something Gleemax or Online Initiative related something or other (i.e., something I'm not really interested).

horseboy
2007-08-15, 08:08 PM
Well, we'll find out in 21 hours and 21 minutes.

Edit: Is it just me or does that third face look like a draneri?

Skyserpent
2007-08-15, 08:17 PM
man... I REALLY Hope it's not 4rth edition... :smalleek:

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 08:20 PM
You are all still playing 3.5? l0s3rs! 4th 3d1t1on si teh ueber!

:smallbiggrin:

Call Me Siggy
2007-08-15, 08:21 PM
Well, we'll find out in 21 hours and 21 minutes.

Edit: Is it just me or does that third face look like a draneri?

Naaah. Looks more like a vampiric satyr.

Thrivol
2007-08-15, 08:22 PM
On second thought, 4th edition may not be half bad. 3.5 is becoming bloated. Look at Pun-Pun, the hulking hurler, and all the other incredibly broken builds.

I could sell all my books, get a good amount of money for it, and save the money for when 4th edition does come out (which will probably be in a year or so).

Arbitrarity
2007-08-15, 08:25 PM
You are all still playing 3.5? l0s3rs! 4th 3d1t1on si teh ueber!

:smallbiggrin:

101 j00 /\/008, 73H 4.S P\/\//\/Z Jo.0! 10113R$k8ZZ!!1!11!@!!one!!1!1!!!at!!

Cookie for translation.


Must... stop...

BCOVertigo
2007-08-15, 08:27 PM
Is anyone else wondering why the d12 is rolling?

Deepblue706
2007-08-15, 08:28 PM
101 j00 /\/008, 73H 4.S P\/\//\/Z Jo.0! 10113R$k8ZZ!!1!11!@!!one!!1!1!!!at!!

Cookie for translation.


Must... stop...

lol you noob, the (4.S) pwnz you. Lollerskates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arbitrarity
2007-08-15, 08:29 PM
Here, have a cookie :smallbiggrin:

http://www.dailyhealthguide.com/img/articles/half-eaten-cookie.gif

Deepblue706
2007-08-15, 08:30 PM
Yay!

Now I really want cookies. Hmph.

Auren
2007-08-15, 08:32 PM
My only hope is that they actually balance the Tanks versus the spell casters.

EDIT: Apparently, I can't spell.

Cybren
2007-08-15, 08:35 PM
4th edition came out years ago.



right there (http://www.kenzerco.com/index.php?cPath=25_26)

Enlong
2007-08-15, 08:36 PM
Is anyone else wondering why the d12 is rolling?I have no clue... mabye 4th Ed will use a lot of Barbarians? Maybe it's a pity roll?

MandibleBones
2007-08-15, 08:40 PM
Viral marketing aside, releasing 4th edition without telling anyone AT ALL in advance would be a pretty craptacular public relations move - it smacks of caring more about short-term profits than about keeping customers.

themightybiggun
2007-08-15, 08:43 PM
eh, I'm going to put my vote in for the launch of Wizards "digital initiative."

Something like, "Moving our gaming to the 4th dimension perhaps?"

Idk, I don't think that its 4th edition quite yet.

horseboy
2007-08-15, 08:45 PM
Viral marketing aside, releasing 4th edition without telling anyone AT ALL in advance would be a pretty craptacular public relations move - it smacks of caring more about short-term profits than about keeping customers.

Oh come on, since when has WotC ever called the next morning? :smallfrown:

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 08:50 PM
Viral marketing aside, releasing 4th edition without telling anyone AT ALL in advance would be a pretty craptacular public relations move - it smacks of caring more about short-term profits than about keeping customers.

To be fair, there are likely several people who know, even outside of Wizards. They are likely all RPGA members who have signed confidence clauses so tight they can't poop right.

Oh, and I need to note that I'm giggling like a madman.

HAIL ERIS! ALL HAIL DISCORDIA!

Citizen Joe
2007-08-15, 09:03 PM
The annoying thing is that you can't get access to any of the DND stuff on the site.

Winterwind
2007-08-15, 09:06 PM
Hmmm...
I wonder if...

See, this here (http://www.degenesis.de/)is a German RPG which uses the four as symbol, in fact, the logo consists of four fours as you can plainly see... and its English translation is supposed to be presented at GenCon... (here (http://www.degenesis.de/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2899)is the thread in the English part of the official forum)
Moreover, a few of these faces, and the general drawing style, look very much like out of this RPG...

Maybe that's it?

But, I never heard anything about WotC being involved in that, so... huh.

...nah, this page looks much to clean to be a hint at DeGenesis...

SoulCatcher78
2007-08-15, 09:09 PM
The rest of the site is probably shut down due to the changes that they are making to Gleemax (which iirc was operational late last night or at least this morning). All the 4 action is interesting but I doubt you see any significant changes before Q2 next year or later. Most of the source books will likely be compatible as far as the fluff goes but the crunchy bits might take some retooling (likely less than say 2E to 3E conversions were at the time of the changeover). All will be made clear tomorrow so there's no sense in worrying about it unless you own stock in WotC.

Dausuul
2007-08-15, 09:13 PM
I think they are just using the 4 to represent A in Adventure. I'm not getting anything on that page right now though.

The fact that all the dice are showing 4s suggests a bit more significance than that.


Viral marketing aside, releasing 4th edition without telling anyone AT ALL in advance would be a pretty craptacular public relations move - it smacks of caring more about short-term profits than about keeping customers.

Oh, I doubt this would be the actual release. I think this is where they tell us it's in development.

I have to say, the thunderstorm raging outside my window right now is sooooo appropriate.

Pakiti
2007-08-15, 09:16 PM
I really hope it's not a 4th edition announcement. And if it is, then I hope it's like "so yeah, 4th edition will be out... eventually."

horseboy
2007-08-15, 09:25 PM
What if it's something really "F"'d up? I don't know, like Hasbro just bought Palladium, Games Workshop, (don't they already own FanPro) and with D&D they now own "4" gaming companies. Just something to chill your blood on a dark and stormy night.

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 09:27 PM
What if it's something really "F"'d up? I don't know, like Hasbro just bought Palladium, Games Workshop, (don't they already own FanPro) and with D&D they now own "4" gaming companies. Just something to chill your blood on a dark and stormy night.

Not Palladium. Kevin would die first.

Bassetking
2007-08-15, 09:28 PM
DRAGON DICE: REDUX

I am so very sorry for that...

Porthos
2007-08-15, 09:29 PM
All But Official:::::

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3702430&postcount=205
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3702448&postcount=217
http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686 (Must Log In To see)

Let the Wailing and Nashing of Teeth Begin!!!! :smallbiggrin:

Pepper
2007-08-15, 09:29 PM
http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686

dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnn

I found this browsing the wizard forums, looks like its upon us, or someone has created a very elaborate joke.

AlterForm
2007-08-15, 09:32 PM
We are 4e. Prepare to be assimilated. Resistance is futile. (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686)

(Yes, I've been beaten to it, I just wanted to use that joke):smalltongue:

Nota Biene
2007-08-15, 09:33 PM
If this isn't a fourth edition announcement, why would they pull a stunt around the number "4" knowing the hype that would cause? If it were anything other than 4th edition, people would end up quite annoyed. I'm betting it will be something along the lines of "just in time for Christmas 2008..."

kjones
2007-08-15, 09:34 PM
Does anyone else here read Knights of the Dinner Table? A while ago, they did an arc about rushing a new edition out the door to boost flagging sales... along the lines of promising "33% more content" by bumping up the font size 22% and adding redundant sidebars and tables for the other 11%. The predictive powers of satire are astonishing...

horseboy
2007-08-15, 09:35 PM
Not Palladium. Kevin would die first.

Well, this is Hasbro, I figured they'd go to their Parker Brother's division, get the master copy of the Ouija board and summon something to suck his soul out. :smallwink:

My buddies were talking about how 4th was coming out late third/forth quarter this year. Looks like they're right.

Ranis
2007-08-15, 09:37 PM
http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686

dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnn

I found this browsing the wizard forums, looks like its upon us, or someone has created a very elaborate joke.

For the love of all that is good and holy in this world, I hope that it's a joke. There simply isn't enough wrong with 3.5 to make this experimental jump to 4E.

IMHO.

Oh, and I thought I might add in my last post before I go on GenCon hiatus, that there is a picture advertising the exact same thing that the OP posted in the GenCon manual, though I wasn't able to find anyone at the convention center that knew what it meant. I hope to the gods that this isn't 4E. Sadface.

RTGoodman
2007-08-15, 09:38 PM
Well, this post alone (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905847) seems to confirm things.

AlterForm
2007-08-15, 09:47 PM
Well, this post alone (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905847) seems to confirm things.

Or make it 100000000000 times worse. (not that I care...I've been working off the SRD for the last several months, and only just bought a DMG for the nifties it has that aren't in the SRD) :smallbiggrin:

horseboy
2007-08-15, 09:49 PM
Well, this post alone (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905847) seems to confirm things.

Guys, I can't see these. :smallfrown: What's going on?

Pakiti
2007-08-15, 09:50 PM
Blarg. That didn't take long. I no longer have access to that forum. I think they found us out.

RTGoodman
2007-08-15, 09:52 PM
Guys, I can't see these. :smallfrown: What's going on?

There was a whole page of threads regarding upcoming 4E products (threads like "4E Campaign Settings," "4E Miniatures," and various things like that related to different parts of D&D). It would appear now, though, that those threads have now been blocked. Or rather, they have for me, at least.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 09:52 PM
There's a forum dedicated to the 4th edition announcement over at Wizards.

*giggle*

Dausuul
2007-08-15, 09:52 PM
Guys, I can't see these. :smallfrown: What's going on?

Heh, looks like WotC's webmaster slipped up. I got to see it briefly, but they slammed the gates shut a couple of minutes ago and now I'm getting a "no permission to access this page" message.

However, for the brief period that it was visible, there was an entire forum devoted to 4th Edition D&D, with threads being set up so that people could discuss all aspects of the game.

For example:



4E Core Rulebooks
Here’s the thread to share thoughts about the 4E Player’s Handbook, 4E Dungeon Master’s Guide, and 4E Monster Manual.

Mike Lescault
Online Communities Manager
Wizards of the Coast
Host of Gamer Radio Zero

Porthos
2007-08-15, 09:54 PM
Blarg. That didn't take long. I no longer have access to that forum. I think they found us out.

Considering that all of the threads were created yesterday, I wonder if some webmonkey accidentally turned the forums "live" a day early or not. In vBulletin it is quite easy to "hide" forums from most users. But if someone accidentally turned the permissions off, then all users could see it.

Regardless, screenshots of the page are already flying around the net, so it is far too late for WotC to contain this.

If this was an accidental leak they must be super pissed right about now! :smalleek:

Pakiti
2007-08-15, 09:56 PM
I dont think they'd be too pissed. The vague wording of the forums is giving alot more hype than just 4DVENTURE did. Plus, it was only like 20 hours early.

horseboy
2007-08-15, 09:57 PM
Heh, looks like WotC's webmaster slipped up. I got to see it briefly, but they slammed the gates shut a couple of minutes ago and now I'm getting a "no permission to access this page" message.

However, for the brief period that it was visible, there was an entire forum devoted to 4th Edition D&D, with threads being set up so that people could discuss all aspects of the game.

For example:

HAHAhaha! Man, I've so GOT to stop doubting my sources. Here's to hoping it's not as sucktastic as 3.X!:smallcool:

Machete
2007-08-15, 09:58 PM
Curses, and I've nearly mastered 3.5 edition. What the crap!

Dausuul
2007-08-15, 09:59 PM
HAHAhaha! Man, I've so GOT to stop doubting my sources. Here's to hoping it's not as sucktastic as 3.X!:smallcool:

Well, I wouldn't say 3.X was sucktastic, exactly, but it certainly has plenty of room for improvement. :smallbiggrin:

Porthos
2007-08-15, 09:59 PM
For people who missed it:

Screenshot of The Forbidden Forum!!! (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3702448&postcount=217)

Or you can wait till tomorrow to see it. Your choice. :smallwink:

ETA (To avoid Double Post):::

The OGL/d20 license thread that WotC set up does give some hope in the "Will 4th edition be OGL based?" department. :smallsmile:

RTGoodman
2007-08-15, 10:02 PM
Regardless, screenshots of the page are already flying around the net, so it is far too late for WotC to contain this.

If this was an accidental leak they must be super pissed right about now! :smalleek:

Regarding that first part, I actually did a screenshot, and then ctrl-c'ed something else before pasting the screenshot into a Paint file. I've been kicking myself, but I'm glad someone else got some.

And regarding the second part, I imagine someone's probably gonna be job-hunting soon. Of course, now the entirety of the Wizards delegation at GenCon is gonna be swamped with questions tomorrow. I hate I can't be there to see it. :smallbiggrin:

SoulCatcher78
2007-08-15, 10:03 PM
Glad they only got me 3 books this time.

Enlong
2007-08-15, 10:04 PM
Just because I like to stir the waters; if this really, truly is 4th edition, what does it mean for Order of the Stick?

horseboy
2007-08-15, 10:06 PM
ROTFLMAO!

"Doomsday Thread"
"Hallelujah Thread"

Boy they are ready, huh?

Starsinger
2007-08-15, 10:06 PM
Considering that all of the threads were created yesterday, I wonder if some webmonkey accidentally turned the forums "live" a day early or not. In vBulletin it is quite easy to "hide" forums from most users. But if someone accidentally turned the permissions off, then all users could see it.

Regardless, screenshots of the page are already flying around the net, so it is far too late for WotC to contain this.

If this was an accidental leak they must be super pissed right about now! :smalleek:

I don't think it was an "accident". Think about it, I'm sure other D&D forums are just as abuzz as we are right now. This is viral advertising to its extreme. Although, if it was just an accident, they shouldn't be mad at all. This is great for them.

Lord Tataraus
2007-08-15, 10:10 PM
Oh yeah...that looks like an official announcement. I for one must say, I am glad its finally coming out. Now I don't have to worry about any new books to get and just expand my collection with 3.5 books (at a cheaper price w00t!), since I, for one, am not changing over to 4e, 3.5 is good enough for me and it works as well as I expect it to.

Porthos
2007-08-15, 10:11 PM
ROTFLMAO!

"Doomsday Thread"
"Hallelujah Thread"

Boy they are ready, huh?

Hey, they're gamers. They know how we think. :smalltongue:


Just because I like to stir the waters; if this really, truly is 4th edition, what does it mean for Order of the Stick?

Heh. The same thought went through my mind as well. On the one hand, the OotS is a DnD based webcomic, so I'd be pretty disappointed if some references wasn't made (even a "nawww this campaign's gonna stay Old Skool"). On the other hand, Rich is on record as thinking the 3.5 Conversion joke in Comic Number 1 as being one that gets far too esoteric with each passing year.

My guess, however, is that 4th Edition will be too big of a topic for Rich not to address it in the comic... Even if it is an oblique reference. Time will tell. It always does. :smallwink:

Hurlbut
2007-08-15, 10:13 PM
Oh yeah...that looks like an official announcement. I for one must say, I am glad its finally coming out. Now I don't have to worry about any new books to get and just expand my collection with 3.5 books (at a cheaper price w00t!), since I, for one, am not changing over to 4e, 3.5 is good enough for me and it works as well as I expect it to.
On one hand, an OOP book will have its price increased as demand increased or seller's perspective of its rarity, on the other hand you can find some books that aren't populer for good deal.

PMDM
2007-08-15, 10:22 PM
In regard to OoTS, the comic has at least 3 more years left in it. Probably more. You don't think people can make the conversion by that point?

GryffonDurime
2007-08-15, 10:22 PM
Wow. I called it. I'm excited. 3.5 was my first foray into Dungeons and Dragons...actually, I think it was pretty much one year ago. I look forward to what the 4th Edition might bring...balanced casters, a core Warlock (a little dream I like to think of as a Corelock), better Psionics fluff, better mechanisms in lieu of Level Adjustment, streamlined combat rules and general consolidation of What Was Good...

I mean, at this point in 3.5's lifecycle...what more are you buying? You have, within the scope of even just official material, more options than you could ever handle. Still, problems persist with core mechanics and balance...if you don't like the 4th Edition, I'm sure you'll be able to manage with 3.5. I mean, most of us people play RPGs other than DnD's current version. Is it really any different than any other system going out of print?

AlterForm
2007-08-15, 10:23 PM
WARNING. IT IS F***ING HUGE. WILL STRETCH YOUR SCREEN. SORRY.

Pics of a 4e Forums Thread:



http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/4e%20Core%20Rulebooks%20Pics/4eCorebooks1.png
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/4e%20Core%20Rulebooks%20Pics/4eCorebooks2.png
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/4e%20Core%20Rulebooks%20Pics/4eCorebooks3.png
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/4e%20Core%20Rulebooks%20Pics/4eCorebooks4.png
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/4e%20Core%20Rulebooks%20Pics/4eCorebooks5.png
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/4e%20Core%20Rulebooks%20Pics/4eCorebooks6.png
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/4e%20Core%20Rulebooks%20Pics/4eCorebooks7.png
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/4e%20Core%20Rulebooks%20Pics/4eCorebooks8.png
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/4e%20Core%20Rulebooks%20Pics/4eCorebooks9.png

Dausuul
2007-08-15, 10:25 PM
On one hand, an OOP book will have its price increased as demand increased or seller's perspective of its rarity, on the other hand you can find some books that aren't populer for good deal.

It's really a question of which will drop further, supply or demand. Given the number of 3.5E books that will be dumped on the market by people switching over, I'd say supply on the secondary market will actually spike at the same time demand plummets, and prices will plummet too.

Later on, things will equalize a bit, but I think the equilibrium price will remain substantially lower than before; one by one, 3.5E groups will convert or quit playing, and demand will continue to decline.

There will always be a few hardcore 3.5E enthusiasts, of course, just as there are people out there right now still playing 3E and 2E and even 1E, but their numbers will dwindle slowly, like elves pining for the fjords.

Jarlax
2007-08-15, 10:28 PM
since we can assume they intend to release in the next 6-12 months and we have discussed what we want to see from a 4th ed D&D a million times, who will actually go and buy it at this point and who will stop buying future 3.5 books from now on?

for me i DM, all of my books more or less fall into setting books and monster books, so i will run a 4th edition campaign if my players ask for it and obviously buy the books i need, which is to say the core 3 to begin with. if my players want to keep running 3.5 thats good for me too.

i will keep buying 3.5 books since a lot of the stuff i buy is not held by and edition as such setting books more or less work outside of the edition they are written in with the exception of NPCs. i think it will be harder for my players though, both in deciding if they want to discard their 3.5 books in favor of 4.0 (i have players that fill sportsbags with just the books they want for one nights play) and if they will continue to buy classbooks with the edition coming to an end.

JadedDM
2007-08-15, 10:29 PM
If anything 4E will be as badly broken as 3E. If not right away, it will eventually become so due to all the booster packs they are bound to release. Then...when it's about ready to fall apart under its own weight, that will be the perfect time to release the new and improved 5E.

The Marketing Matrix has you.

In other words:

http://www.geocities.com/jadeddm/nelson5.gif
HAW-HAW!

RTGoodman
2007-08-15, 10:31 PM
Later on, things will equalize a bit, but I think the equilibrium price will remain substantially lower than before; one by one, 3.5E groups will convert or quit playing, and demand will continue to decline.

There will always be a few hardcore 3.5E enthusiasts, of course, just as there are people out there right now still playing 3E and 2E and even 1E, but their numbers will dwindle slowly, like elves pining for the fjords.

I have to say, that's the best simile I've heard in a long while. :smallbiggrin:

Either way, I'll check out the 4E Core stuff and check out whether I like it better than 3.5. If I don't I'll continue to play 3.5 (and hopefully have enough people to do so), or I'll switch over. Of course, the greatest thing ever would be if it was all backwards-compatible (or at least most of it) so I could at least use older adventures and supplements I haven't gotten to yet.

Hurlbut
2007-08-15, 10:32 PM
In other words:

HAW-HAW!
what? a picture of FortuneCity?
Edited* Eh, it's better if you had a pic of him pointing and his mouth in a jeering gesture.

Dausuul
2007-08-15, 10:34 PM
now that it is more or less a reality and we have discussed what we want to see from a 4th ed D&D a million times, who will actually go and buy it at this point and who will stop buying future 3.5 books from now on?

Well, I'm not going to commit to buying 4E just yet. I mean, I'll want to look over it, make sure it's worth investing in; ninety bucks for the core books is rather a lot to...

...oh, who am I kidding. I'll be buying multiple copies the first day it's out. (I always have a couple extra PHBs on hand, because there's always at least one player at my table who doesn't have the core books.)

Jarlax
2007-08-15, 10:40 PM
Of course, the greatest thing ever would be if it was all backwards-compatible (or at least most of it) so I could at least use older adventures and supplements I haven't gotten to yet.

i would love to use my old stuff BUT i don't want to see backwards compatibility for the sake of keeping the old stuff usable. they are gonna reprint it at some point anyway so it makes backwards compatibility meaningless in the long run and i would hate to see old problems remain because to fix them would make the new rules incompatible with old edition stuff.

i want to see a totally clean slate, for example nuke sorcerers and replace them with locks, they have more or less the same fluff and at least locks are a different mechanical option to a wizard. not keep sorcerers just because they were in 3.0 and 3.5

Goober4473
2007-08-15, 10:40 PM
I plan to download some, uh, "review" PDFs when they come out, to see if they're any good. Even if 4.0 rules, it'll be a while before I'm willing to buy new books. Wizards had their chance. They made me buy 3.5 updated books. They only get one. :smallyuk:

Fhaolan
2007-08-15, 10:47 PM
Buy what books? You don't honestly think they're going to do anything as primitive as *print* anything, do you?

To go along with the whole online Dragon magazine, they're going to have 4th edition D&D as electronic documents. Then they sell each feature of the ruleset as a separate document. Or maybe a subscription! Pay-for-errata!

What, you're using the 4.042-A version of Barbarian? You fool! You have to upgrade to 4.052-Q to get the 'Freakazoid' feat. You better upgrade your subscription. You can't play a Barbarian without Freakazoid!

horseboy
2007-08-15, 10:53 PM
Buy what books? You don't honestly think they're going to do anything as primitive as *print* anything, do you?

To go along with the whole online Dragon magazine, they're going to have 4th edition D&D as electronic documents. Then they sell each feature of the ruleset as a separate document. Or maybe a subscription! Pay-for-errata!

What, you're using the 4.042-A version of Barbarian? You fool! You have to upgrade to 4.052-Q to get the 'Freakazoid' feat. You better upgrade your subscription. You can't play a Barbarian without Freakazoid!

Who doesn't want to be a Super dude, extroidaner?

But yeah, totally can see them doing that. :smallannoyed:

Stephen_E
2007-08-15, 10:53 PM
Buy what books? You don't honestly think they're going to do anything as primitive as *print* anything, do you?

To go along with the whole online Dragon magazine, they're going to have 4th edition D&D as electronic documents. Then they sell each feature of the ruleset as a separate document. Or maybe a subscription! Pay-for-errata!

What, you're using the 4.042-A version of Barbarian? You fool! You have to upgrade to 4.052-Q to get the 'Freakazoid' feat. You better upgrade your subscription. You can't play a Barbarian without Freakazoid!

Fhaolan, you're an evil evil Gnoll. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen

RTGoodman
2007-08-15, 10:54 PM
Buy what books? You don't honestly think they're going to do anything as primitive as *print* anything, do you?

To go along with the whole online Dragon magazine, they're going to have 4th edition D&D as electronic documents. Then they sell each feature of the ruleset as a separate document. Or maybe a subscription! Pay-for-errata!

What, you're using the 4.042-A version of Barbarian? You fool! You have to upgrade to 4.052-Q to get the 'Freakazoid' feat. You better upgrade your subscription. You can't play a Barbarian without Freakazoid!

*Takes off glasses dramatically*

Dear God! I didn't even think about that.

Of course, one of the threads "spoiled" on the WotC site was called something like "D&D, Gleemax, the Digital Initiative, and You" or something like that (I think), so that would seem to mean that D&D might not be entirely digital.

Oh, and Jarlax, the more I think about it, I think I might actually agree with you. I've never been around for a rules change (I started right after the switch to 3.5, so that's what I've always played), so I figured backwards-compatibility would be good. But now that I think about it, for a whole new edition, a complete shift would probably be better - I mean, it would, at the very least, keep people from trying to figure out the crazy "3.25" stuff (Savage Species, weapon size rules) that still gives people headaches.

mudbunny
2007-08-15, 10:56 PM
And this explains the release of the Rules Compendium in October as well.

Anxe
2007-08-15, 10:56 PM
HA! 4DVENTURE. 4th edition isn't going to use the d20 system. It's going to us the d4 system! I love it!

CelestialStick
2007-08-15, 11:01 PM
For people who missed it:

Screenshot of The Forbidden Forum!!! (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3702448&postcount=217)

Or you can wait till tomorrow to see it. Your choice. :smallwink:

ETA (To avoid Double Post):::

The OGL/d20 license thread that WotC set up does give some hope in the "Will 4th edition be OGL based?" department. :smallsmile:

I looked at the screen shot, then went to the Wizards board to the Community HQ but couldn't find anything called WizOAdmin.

Dausuul
2007-08-15, 11:01 PM
I looked at the screen shot, then went to the Wizards board to the Community HQ but couldn't find anything called WizOAdmin.

That's because they locked the forum. It was never supposed to be visible to us plebeians in the first place, but the webmaster slipped up. Or possibly "slipped up."

horseboy
2007-08-15, 11:03 PM
That's because they locked the forum. It was never supposed to be visible to us plebeians in the first place, but the webmaster slipped up. Or possibly "slipped up."

LOL, it was a "website wardrobe" malfunction.

jamroar
2007-08-15, 11:05 PM
What is this "Gleemax" and how is it related to the D&D digital initiative anyway? I'm not sure what it's about, but the headache inducing terminal green forum color scheme and silly name is already making me dislike it on first impression.

Porthos
2007-08-15, 11:10 PM
What is this "Gleemax" and how is it related to the D&D digital initiative anyway? I'm not sure what it's about, but the headache inducing terminal green forum color scheme and silly name is already making me dislike it on first impression.

Read, and be enlightened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleemax


Gleemax is a website launched by Wizards of the Coast in 2007. Its current functionality is limited to a forum, but Wizards has plans to make it "the home for gamers" at some point in the future, with major functionality to be revealed at GenCon in August of 2007. The website will be focused on those who play collectible card games, wargames, miniatures games, and roleplaying games, and Wizards has said it will incorporate social networking features similar to mainstream sites such as Facebook and Myspace.

Wizards of the Coast has stated that participation in the Gleemax site will not be exclusive to their own products (most notably Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons and Dragons), an important point for many strategy gamers.

I've found that if I come across a concept that is unfamiliar, my best bet is to see what Wikipedia has to say on the subject, and move on from there.

And, yes, today was the first time I heard the term "Gleemax" as well. :smallwink:

Dausuul
2007-08-15, 11:10 PM
What is this "Gleemax" and how is it related to the D&D digital initiative anyway? I'm not sure what it's about, but the headache inducing terminal green forum color scheme and silly name is already making me dislike it on first impression.

From the introductory article:


"Wizards of the Coast is building nothing less than the home for gamers right here on this URL. Gleemax.com will be an online strategy gaming destination built on three important pillars: Community, Content, and, of course, Games... If we pull this off (and believe me, we intend to), then Gleemax will become the center of the online strategy and roleplaying gaming universe."

In other words, Gleemax appears to be a monument to WotC's delusions of grandeur. I can only hope that whoever's responsible for it has nothing whatsoever to do with 4E.

horseboy
2007-08-15, 11:10 PM
What is this "Gleemax" and how is it related to the D&D digital initiative anyway? I'm not sure what it's about, but the headache inducing terminal green forum color scheme and silly name is already making me dislike it on first impression.

Apparently (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleemax) Myspace for dorks.

RTGoodman
2007-08-15, 11:12 PM
The whole "Gleemax" thing has been going around the Wizards boards for several months, I think.

A lot of people are worried that it's a sign that WotC is trying to digitize everything (as Fhaolan mentioned earlier, bringing up fears of an entirely digital 4E D&D).

Personally, I think it's probably a good thing to have a social networking type site for gamers, but I think that it's probably not a good idea to try to make everything work off of it.

horseboy
2007-08-15, 11:12 PM
In other words, Gleemax appears to be a monument to WotC's delusions of grandeur. I can only hope that whoever's responsible for it has nothing whatsoever to do with 4E.

And I thought I was bitter and jaded. Well put, well put.

Prince_of_Blades
2007-08-15, 11:13 PM
If the site keeps the same links, this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndlist&brand=dnd&year=All&tablesort=5) should tell when 4E comes out, if it is indeed announced when that would be and if it is updated. Which is doubtful. Also, maybe a sneak peek at a new layout.

candelarius
2007-08-15, 11:15 PM
I saw something on that section mentioning something about a Character Creator. If they have a program that makes CharGen easier, I'm all for it :)

Jarlax
2007-08-15, 11:18 PM
they better still have hard copy books for sale, i hate PDf files with a passion. while they are handy for creating my PC cheat sheets, where i can print out all my feats, spells and extra rules onto a single double sided page they are annoying as a replacement for books in my personal experience.

the other problem comes in with DRM (digital Rights Management) and how will it be run for these new online books, currently i have borrowed the waterdeep setting book off my friend to help run my Undermountain campaign. if that was a PDF from wizards would i be able to do the same? would the file be made so it cannot be copied or even moved to another PC? or would it let me copy the file for a Trial time of say 48 hours and then not work on my PC anymore?

Porthos
2007-08-15, 11:24 PM
A lot of people are worried that it's a sign that WotC is trying to digitize everything (as Fhaolan mentioned earlier, bringing up fears of an entirely digital 4E D&D).

Funs fun, but there is no chance in heck that WotC will publish a Web/Digital Only 4E.

None. What. So. Ever. :smallsmile:

And yes, I am very prepared to eat my hat over this. :smallwink:

In fact, I shudder to think at the amount of lost revenue if there is a lack of Dead Tree Books.

Now can I see a possibility that the only place you can get a online version of the rules is via the DI website? Sure. But the only place you can get the rules period? No way. WotC would be cutting off too many revenue streams if they did something that foolhardy.

All IMO, of course. :smallsmile:

Dausuul
2007-08-15, 11:25 PM
And I thought I was bitter and jaded.

I'm usually not; the prospect of 4E actually has a big smile on my face, despite all the money I've sunk into 3.5E books. But this Gleemax thing looks like the worst sort of corporate hypemongering.

Fhaolan
2007-08-15, 11:35 PM
Fhaolan, you're an evil evil Gnoll. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen

*bows* Thankee kindly sir! :smallsmile:


I've never been around for a rules change (I started right after the switch to 3.5, so that's what I've always played), so I figured backwards-compatibility would be good. But now that I think about it, for a whole new edition, a complete shift would probably be better - I mean, it would, at the very least, keep people from trying to figure out the crazy "3.25" stuff (Savage Species, weapon size rules) that still gives people headaches.

I've been around long enough to have gone through... dear lord... 3 to 6 revisions depending on how you count them (if you include 3 -> 3.5, I have to include 2 -> 2 + Player/DM Options, and 1 -> UA + Survival Guides) to D&D and about the same number of revisions to pretty much every other game system I've cared about (GURPS, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, etc.)

Really the only thing that's a serious problem is the cash needed to buy into the new system. Not just your cash, either, but the cash of all the other players in your gaming group. Otherwise, it's just a new ruleset. You'll get used to it.

---

Despite what I may joke about, Hasbro/WotC/TSR/Guidon Games (who remembers them? :smallsmile:) is a company, a business. The purpose of a business is to make money, if nothing else to pay their employees. If the business can't pay their employees...

And it's becoming fairly obvious that the RPG market is shrinking. There's more stuff published every day, but fewer stores in my area are carrying it, and those that do are devoting less and less space to RPGs in general. The gaming store nearest me used to be dominated by Warhammer & d20 games, with card games like Munchkin not that far behind. Most of that is gone and is replaced with various RPG-style board games. The style has changed. RPGs aren't 'in' anymore. They'll come back again, eventually. But whoever owns the D&D license has to strive to survive until the uptick happens again.

It's all going online, and most of that through pirated torrents or micro-payment downloads and subscriptions. If the only way the company can keep publishing suppliments for the rules is to go online to eliminate printing and inventory costs, that is exactly what they are going to do. And they will need to find out how to get you, the honest consumer, to pay them enough for each suppliment to keep them solvent. Otherwise Hasbro *will* shut them down. WotC employees may have an emotional attachment to D&D, but I guarantee you that the Hasbro executives don't.

Jarlax
2007-08-15, 11:43 PM
If the site keeps the same links, this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndlist&brand=dnd&year=All&tablesort=5) should tell when 4E comes out, if it is indeed announced when that would be and if it is updated. Which is doubtful. Also, maybe a sneak peek at a new layout.

actually that list might give us an idea of when we can expect 4th edition to be released. with the rules compendium out in October and nothing but the last of the FR super adventures and a book of BBEGs after that, we might be looking at 4.0 to be announced for either December to catch Christmas sales or January/February, since wizards is probably due to release their product lists for the beginning of next year around about now.

TheOOB
2007-08-15, 11:43 PM
Dead tree books for PnP gaming will never die, one of PnP games charms is that you don't need a computer to have fun, it's about social interaction, not electronics.

RTGoodman
2007-08-15, 11:47 PM
Dead tree books for PnP gaming will never die, one of PnP games charms is that you don't need a computer to have fun, it's about social interaction, not electronics.

For players and people actually part of the hobby, yes. But I'm not sure Hasbro knows that or supports it.

Bosh
2007-08-15, 11:48 PM
And it's becoming fairly obvious that the RPG market is shrinking.
Piracy is definately cutting deep into the profit streams.

TheOOB
2007-08-15, 11:52 PM
Piracy is definately cutting deep into the profit streams.

In some respects, but in other respects it actually helps. I know people who won't buy a book until they have seen it, and unless they get ahold of a copy somehow they won't spend money on it. Piracy is primarily a problem with digital mediums, when there is no difference between the official digital item and the pirated version, people are more likely to get the pirated version. But with D&D books it is pretty hard to get a pirated dead tree book, so piracy isn't as big of a problem.

Aximili
2007-08-15, 11:53 PM
Piracy is definately cutting deep into the profit streams.

It always does. With everything (though not necessarily deep).

Actually, I'm absolutely amazed that Magic the gathering managed to avoid piracy for so long. I mean, come on! those guys basically print money! (only they let the players choose how much each bill is worth).

Creeps
2007-08-15, 11:58 PM
Piracy is primarily a problem with digital mediums, when there is no difference between the official digital item and the pirated version, people are more likely to get the pirated version. But with D&D books it is pretty hard to get a pirated dead tree book, so piracy isn't as big of a problem.

Oh, now, I wouldn't say that. . . .

Porthos
2007-08-15, 11:58 PM
But with D&D books it is pretty hard to get a pirated dead tree book, so piracy isn't as big of a problem.

Actually..... No it isn't. :smalltongue:

"Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies."

horseboy
2007-08-15, 11:59 PM
If the only way the company can keep publishing suppliments for the rules is to go online to eliminate printing and inventory costs, that is exactly what they are going to do. And they will need to find out how to get you, the honest consumer, to pay them enough for each suppliment to keep them solvent. Otherwise Hasbro *will* shut them down. WotC employees may have an emotional attachment to D&D, but I guarantee you that the Hasbro executives don't.

Oh yeah, you're already seeing that with the smaller rpg companies. *cough*redbrick*cough*. The thing that does worry me is that if Hasbro DOES go to "solely" digital then the hobby itself will get lost on the net. As much as I do trash talk D&D it is the grandfather we all pay recognition to. If/when it goes the industry will probably tank with it.

But this is about hoping 4.0 will actually work! Ah, to live a dream.



Damn, now I've got Minmay stuck in my head. :smallfurious:

Reinboom
2007-08-16, 12:05 AM
It always does. With everything (though not necessarily deep).

Actually, I'm absolutely amazed that Magic the gathering managed to avoid piracy for so long. I mean, come on! those guys basically print money! (only they let the players choose how much each bill is worth).

There is a major reason for this, to my speculation, and this reason is in glue. Yes glue. The very specific special kind that holds the two layers of magic the gathering cards together (or 3 layers if one layer is foil). This is patented, and guarded very closely, and also provides a unique weight and durability to the cards. Having seen some very very good attempts at pirated cards - I can tell from them just not feeling right - weight and bend (hence the bend test as well) just don't cut it. This makes pirates easy to catch.

Aside.
4th edition, I'm glad I only own 8 books. I just discovered I am able to get to gencon 2 days ago - now this? *excited*
There's a lot of things I can speculate - but now I just have curiosity excitement. I don't care if I end up biting the bait or not.

Leon
2007-08-16, 12:07 AM
The annoying thing is that you can't get access to any of the DND stuff on the site.

QFT

i care not for what it means, i just want into the site

Porthos
2007-08-16, 12:17 AM
Here is the main reason why DnD 4E will not be Digital Only: Are you seriously suggesting that to have a session of DnD, that everyone will need a laptop? Coz that is exactly what would happen if 4E went Digital Only.

After all, I don't know about you, but I always have my copy of (at least) the PHB on hand at all times during a gaming session. But if 4E is Digital Only, that means everyone who wants to game will have to bring some sort of portable computer. Never mind the revenue losses from Amazon, Borders, Local Game Store, et all. Having a Digital Only Pen and Paper Game makes no sense at all.

Yes, more and more gamers are bringing their laptops to the table. But I don't feel it is anywhere near a saturation point for WotC to do something that idotic.

And if I can't have a hard copy of the PHB that I can quickly flip through to look up something/settle an argument... well... I'm gonna be pretty darn pissed off. And much less likely to buy it.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-08-16, 12:20 AM
Well, if 4.0 is not OGL'd and supplemented with an SRD, then i will support any decent fork (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29) of 3.5 anyone offers...

Fax Celestis
2007-08-16, 12:24 AM
I got it.

They're "breaking the fourth wall" and want us to help them write 4th edition.

Seems like a cheap way to get decent, balanced effects with minimal effort on their part.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-08-16, 12:27 AM
I got it.

They're "breaking the fourth wall" and want us to help them write 4th edition.

Seems like a cheap way to get decent, balanced effects with minimal effort on their part.

Well Fax, as I just said, if it turns out that 4.0 is not OGL, then I charge thee (and Vorpal Tribble, Bears w/Lasers and other assorted talented people here, of course) with the task of writing the 3.6 Fork

I am not as good as you guys are, but I would volunteer to do playtesting...

horseboy
2007-08-16, 12:30 AM
Here is the main reason why DnD 4E will not be Digital Only: Are you seriously suggesting that to have a session of DnD, that everyone will need a laptop? Coz that is exactly what would happen if 4E went Digital Only.Technically not everyone, just the DM. Players can if they want or they can work with the DM.


After all, I don't know about you, but I always have my copy of (at least) the PHB on hand at all times during a gaming session. But if 4E is Digital Only, that means everyone who wants to game will have to bring some sort of portable computer. Never mind the revenue losses from Amazon, Borders, Local Game Store, et all. Having a Digital Only Pen and Paper Game makes no sense at all.

No, just the DM, noobs, control freaks, and some complicated casters.


Yes, more and more gamers are bringing their laptops to the table. But I don't feel it is anywhere near a saturation point for WotC to do something that idotic. This is WotC we're talking about.


And if I can't have a hard copy of the PHB that I can quickly flip through to look up something/settle an argument... well... I'm gonna be pretty darn pissed off. And much less likely to buy it.
That depends on how well the .pdf is bookmarked.

horseboy
2007-08-16, 12:33 AM
I got it.

They're "breaking the fourth wall" and want us to help them write 4th edition.

Seems like a cheap way to get decent, balanced effects with minimal effort on their part.
Well, technically, isn't that what the whole "Living" and RPGA systems are? I mean 3.5 came out of "Oh crap!" moments from tournaments.

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 12:38 AM
since we can assume they intend to release in the next 6-12 months and we have discussed what we want to see from a 4th ed D&D a million times, who will actually go and buy it at this point and who will stop buying future 3.5 books from now on?


Likely slated for a GenCon release.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-16, 12:39 AM
Well, technically, isn't that what the whole "Living" and RPGA systems are? I mean 3.5 came out of "Oh crap!" moments from tournaments.

Not really. Those're globalizations and standardizations of a campaign setting and the events within. This'd be--basically--homebrew on a massive scale.

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 12:48 AM
Back when 3e came out, I was an enthusiastic adopter. I'd been reading the forums for quite some time, catching the hints of what they were going to do, and I was really excited. My DM at the time was less so... swore he'd never play, was going to stick with 2e, which he preferred.

We got it, and he changed his mind. Me, I got less enthusiastic as time went on.

I've gotten over my giggle fit. I still find it amusing, but I'm not giggling inanely about it.

horseboy
2007-08-16, 12:59 AM
Not really. Those're globalizations and standardizations of a campaign setting and the events within. This'd be--basically--homebrew on a massive scale.

Well, I meant how that RPGA events are playtesting practices. Like how, in a tournament they realized just how "broke" the patch spell was so had to rip it out.

But if it's what you think it is, I'm reminded of the adage: "Too many cooks spoil the broth."

kjones
2007-08-16, 01:00 AM
Honestly, if it means that they'll genuinely listen to people like Fax and take their suggestions seriously... I'm all for it.

Of course, there's a snowball's chance in hell that that will happen.

Porthos
2007-08-16, 01:01 AM
Back when 3e came out, I was an enthusiastic adopter. I'd been reading the forums for quite some time, catching the hints of what they were going to do, and I was really excited. My DM at the time was less so... swore he'd never play, was going to stick with 2e, which he preferred.

We got it, and he changed his mind. Me, I got less enthusiastic as time went on.

When 3E came out, I was estatic, because (for me) it fixed many things that I detested about 1E/2E/PO. In fact, all things considered, I'm pretty happy with 3E as it stands right now. Probably because I neither care about "broken builds/concepts" nor do I try to exploit them. :smallwink:

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to 4E either. If it is an incremental increase ala 1E -> 2E, then I'll be all for it. And if they solve the Skill/Feat Shortage problem (the only real issue I have with 3E), then I'll be very happy.

I guess I am in the Wait and See Camp. Oh sure, I have my sacred cows that I'd like to see slaugherted (no more/watered down alignment, a classless [or at least near classless] system, elimination of Vacian Magic, et etc). But since I doubt those will ever happen, I'll just be content if they fix the few lingering concerns I have with 3E. :smallsmile:

JadedDM
2007-08-16, 01:03 AM
As an enthusiastic 2E player, this news does not effect me in the least. Although I am vastly amused to know that in the near future, there will be such a thing as a '3E grognard.'

Gralamin
2007-08-16, 01:15 AM
My Crackpot theory:
They are trying to effect a wider audience with their new electronic Dungeon. 4 = A in leet, so 4dventure is = adventure.
This is like how if you go to the Max convenience store, and get a froster (Slurpee), they have things like WTF written on them (standing for What the Froster.)

I wouldn't be surprised If I'm right

Pakiti
2007-08-16, 01:16 AM
Who else plans on staying awake for the next 16 hours straight?

(0.o)

edit: ...I dont.

Deepblue706
2007-08-16, 01:18 AM
I calculate a 97% chance the end result of this nonsense will be something absolutely dumb.

Gralamin
2007-08-16, 01:21 AM
I calculate a 97% chance the end result of this nonsense will be something absolutely dumb.

Agreed

Heres the java script file:

http://www.wizards.com/global/dndcountdown4.js

<!--
function delayer(){

window.location = "/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome";

}

function GetCount(){

amount = tamount

if(tamount < 0){
document.getElementById('countbox').innerHTML="<a href=\"/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome\" class=\"countdown2\">Now!</a>";
setTimeout('delayer()', 5000)
}



else{
days=0;hours=0;mins=0;secs=0;out="";

days=Math.floor(amount/86400);//days
amount=amount%86400;

hours=Math.floor(amount/3600);//hours
amount=amount%3600;

mins=Math.floor(amount/60);//minutes
amount=amount%60;

secs=Math.floor(amount);//seconds

if(days != 0){out += days +" day"+((days!=1)?"s":"")+", ";}
if(days != 0 || hours != 0){out += hours +" hour"+((hours!=1)?"s":"")+", ";}
if(days != 0 || hours != 0 || mins != 0){out += mins +" minute"+((mins!=1)?"s":"")+", ";}
out += secs +" seconds";
document.getElementById('countbox').innerHTML=out;

tamount -= 1

setTimeout("GetCount()", 1000);
}
}





//-->






The Now! is scaring me...

horseboy
2007-08-16, 01:21 AM
I calculate a 97% chance the end result of this nonsense will be something absolutely dumb.

Quoted for truth.

Gamgee
2007-08-16, 01:43 AM
If this is 4e then I will be pissed, spent so much money on 3.5 books in the last year (just got into DnD). If they move to 4e its off to the less desirable places of the internet for me.... I sure as hell am not paying. Even though I love the game I just will not pay, partly because I can now not afford to pay.

I would laugh if this were a countdown to an announcment about an event which would start a whole OTHER countdown.

Fhaolan
2007-08-16, 01:50 AM
Are you seriously suggesting that to have a session of DnD, that everyone will need a laptop?

No, because I think that would be the a very silly direction for Hasbro to go. I believe that the resistance against that would last long enough to seriously damage the product line.

However, my opinion on what 4th ed should be matters not a jot, nor does anyone's here. If the executives in charge of the D&D product line convince themselves that the whole Web 3.0 nonsense is the real 'wave of the future' like most of those slashdot people keep spouting... that's all that matters. I know a *lot* of people betting their careers and livelyhoods on that bit of vapor, and they get really upset when you poke at their bubble.

If this turns out to be the real announcement for 4th edition, which it actually may still not be, our votes have already been cast. By what we, as consumers, bought or didn't buy over the last several years. And what we downloaded, and pirated, and copied, and subscribed to. What made Hasbro money, and what didn't. Every thing we did really was noticed by the people counting the beans, because that's their job. Very likely they have decided something. We may not like what they decide. They may make it purely electronic. They may decide to roll back to the Fantasy Supplement for Chainmail, for some insane reason. But whatever they decide, we'll just have to cope, one way or another.

Gralamin
2007-08-16, 01:57 AM
I would laugh if this were a countdown to an announcment about an event which would start a whole OTHER countdown.

If you look at the java script above, you can see a link that uses a class of "countdown2"
This most likely means either: Bypass the Countdown, or Start Countdown#2.

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 02:04 AM
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1345/1134318905_7ceba73e8e.jpg

Thank you Obi-Wan Kenobi.

horseboy
2007-08-16, 02:06 AM
I wonder if this has anything to do with them loosing Dragonlance.

Iku Rex
2007-08-16, 02:15 AM
The annoying thing is that you can't get access to any of the DND stuff on the site.It's still there. Do a google search and open the cached version of a page to download stuff. For example, a search for dnd character sheets gives you the cached version of the "D&D Archives" page (second search result).

Vaynor
2007-08-16, 02:15 AM
I think I'm going to stick with 3E, and if most everyone agrees 4E is better I may buy the core rulebooks so I'm not left out in 4E games, but will most likely play 3.5E exclusively.

Overlord
2007-08-16, 02:27 AM
Time to do some Adam Savage-style percentages (come to think of it, they don't show him doing this very often anymore, do they?):

1% Chance that the announcement is 4th Editon, and it's coming before the year is out. Actually I think that's less than a 1% chance, but I don't feel like wasting time on fractions of percents.

19% Chance that the announcement is 4th Edition, with a release date listed as either next year or beyond, or, more likely, TBD.

10% Chance that the announcement is a new campaign setting, which I personally think would be a head-up-posterior move by Wizards. They won't be able to support another Campaign Setting.

20% Chance that Wizards is wasting a large portion of their server resources and cutting us off from the D&D section just to loose some uninteresting Gleemax-related SUPER HAPPY FUN GAMER thing upon the public.

50% Chance that the announcement is either the new Dungeon, Dragon, or both at once e-Magazine details. Woohoo.

I expect that the overall public reaction to this, regardless of the announcement, will be a mix of "Yay!"s, "...Meh."s, and computer screens being flipped off.

Edit:

Note: If this is 4th Edition, does anyone else think it's rather...unpalatable that Wizards is still going to be releasing a "Rules Compendium" this October. If they really are releasing 4th Ed., they should have already switched gears to "Fluff-filled Campaign Setting & Adeventure Module" mode, since those are the products that are least likely to be rendered unusable by a rules change. But then again, if they intend to release 4th Edition more than a year or two from now, well, that would be odd. Not bad, per se, but very out of character for the Hasbro management. That would mean that theri sales of 3.5 products would be considerably dampened, and I don't think Hasbro would even consider allowing Wizards to announce something that potentially damaging to sales so early.

burntsolace
2007-08-16, 02:39 AM
I dunno what all the hype is yet....

But I am afraid... I am very afraid.

I doubt they would let something like the forums just slip out. I think that was intentional.... and probably to mislead people.

Or am I just caught up in a paranoid mood from 01-18-08/Cloverfield??

Kaineug
2007-08-16, 03:41 AM
Well, we know it's 4th edition. They had announcements publicly viewable for a few minutes before they blocked off the 4th edition forums on the WotC site. They're announcing it at GenCon, 6:30 p.m., at a future products seminar.

As for when it will be released... who knows? The general tone of the announcements and the names of the threads that the community liason created would indicate that they have something virtually ready, as they are asking for some specific feedback.

Edit: the 4th Edition PHB will arrive in May of next year.

Overlord
2007-08-16, 03:45 AM
Well, we know it's 4th edition. They had announcements publicly viewable for a few minutes before they blocked off the 4th edition forums on the WotC site. They're announcing it at GenCon, 6:30 p.m., at a future products seminar.

Hey....

I was trying to keep hope alive. :(

Kaerou
2007-08-16, 03:47 AM
As long as they make Kobolds a PC race i'll be happy. >_>

Tengu
2007-08-16, 03:49 AM
I hope that ToB-style maneuvers will be core.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-16, 03:52 AM
Note: If this is 4th Edition, does anyone else think it's rather...unpalatable that Wizards is still going to be releasing a "Rules Compendium" this October. If they really are releasing 4th Ed., they should have already switched gears to "Fluff-filled Campaign Setting & Adeventure Module" mode, since those are the products that are least likely to be rendered unusable by a rules change. But then again, if they intend to release 4th Edition more than a year or two from now, well, that would be odd. Not bad, per se, but very out of character for the Hasbro management. That would mean that theri sales of 3.5 products would be considerably dampened, and I don't think Hasbro would even consider allowing Wizards to announce something that potentially damaging to sales so early.

Well, it makes sense. I mean, why would you release a Rules Compendium if you weren't about done publishing rules?

I'm also sure they intend to keep supporting 3.5, possibly even releasing books.

Overlord
2007-08-16, 04:00 AM
Well, it makes sense. I mean, why would you release a Rules Compendium if you weren't about done publishing rules?

I'm also sure they intend to keep supporting 3.5, possibly even releasing books.

A Compendium of Rules that are about to become obsolete?

This leads me to believe that either A: 4th Ed is going to be pretty compatible with 3.5, or B: More likely, they're trying to milk as much money as they can out of 3.5 before dropping it like a turd and beginning to crank out new 4th edition products.

By the way, I accidentally discovered that if you hold down the Shift key, 4th edition becomes $TH EDITION. Coincidence? You decide! :smallbiggrin:

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-16, 04:02 AM
A Compendium of Rules that are about to become obsolete?
Yes. It's a valuable resource for people who, oh, decide that a new edition is just an eeeeeevil ploy to make money and stick with the old one.

nagora
2007-08-16, 04:06 AM
On the other hand, I really don't want to shell out 90 bucks for three more rulebooks.

You don't need to do that; the 1st edition books can be got for a lot less on eBay.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-16, 04:07 AM
You don't need to do that; the 1st edition books can be got for a lot less on eBay.

Edit: that was a little blunt.
So I'll just say that anyone who has ever considered 1st edition could already have it. They've even likely tried it and decided they didn't like it. It's pretty obvious that someone remotely interested in 4E won't be interested in 1st ed.

Overlord
2007-08-16, 04:09 AM
Yes. It's a valuable resource for people who, oh, decide that a new edition is just an eeeeeevil ploy to make money and stick with the old one.

Good point.

But I considered the Rules Compendium to be a somewhat less eeevil ploy to make money. And I didn't like the idea of paying for errata, which is exactly what the Rules Compendium 4th Edition is going to be.

:smallbiggrin: Okay, just kidding on that last one. That was a cheap shot.

Costantinov
2007-08-16, 04:10 AM
As long as they make Kobolds a PC race i'll be happy. >_>

Ehhhh...I think that already exists :P

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-16, 04:16 AM
Good point.

But I considered the Rules Compendium to be a somewhat less eeevil ploy to make money. And I didn't like the idea of paying for errata, which is exactly what the Rules Compendium 4th Edition is going to be.

:smallbiggrin: Okay, just kidding on that last one. That was a cheap shot.

From what I've heard, the Rules Compendium contains either no or very little errata.

Overlord
2007-08-16, 04:19 AM
From what I've heard, the Rules Compendium contains either no or very little errata.

Quiet, you!

You're stifling my hissy fit! :smalltongue:

...Okay, if what you're saying is accurate, the Rules Compendium now rates a 3 out of 10 on the evil scale, and a 7 out of 10 on my "Personally Useless" scale.

Destro_Yersul
2007-08-16, 04:35 AM
*shrug*

Gencon, which starts Thursday, is four days long. Wizards of the Coast is a co-sponser of said con. Coincedence? You decide!

My guess is that it's a countdown to Gencon. Course, I could be horribly wrong about that, and it really is 4th ed. In which case I shall cry.
Isn't this just the sort of thing Wizards would do to promote that?

nagora
2007-08-16, 04:46 AM
Edit: that was a little blunt.
So I'll just say that anyone who has ever considered 1st edition could already have it. They've even likely tried it and decided they didn't like it. It's pretty obvious that someone remotely interested in 4E won't be interested in 1st ed.

I have to admit that I only posted that because I knew you would see it. I'm a bad man :smallfrown: (:smallbiggrin:)

Reinboom
2007-08-16, 04:54 AM
*shrug*

Gencon, which starts Thursday, is four days long. Wizards of the Coast is a co-sponser of said con. Coincedence? You decide!

My guess is that it's a countdown to Gencon. Course, I could be horribly wrong about that, and it really is 4th ed. In which case I shall cry.
Isn't this just the sort of thing Wizards would do to promote that?

It would be a bad business move to promote it without saying it's gencon _ being that Thursday is today. GenCon is something one normally plans for, and 'announcing it' (even though so many people already know of it) in such a way, especially since the announcement happens for a long period of time afterwards, is quite silly.
Also, GenCon isn't just D&D for wizards - there is magic (their main money raking engine - though i still love it) - and the magic page doesn't have this stop sign of a countdown on it. If it was wizards counting towards it - I would imagine it would be on their whole website - not just D&D.

Finally, there's the forums that was up for only a short minute showing topic discussions of 4th edition, that was quickly closed. Official, WotC forums. That still exist. (You can tell because you can't access them - not a missing page, no, you just can't access the page that is there).

*pats your back* it'll be ok... *hands handkerchief*

Matthew
2007-08-16, 05:04 AM
Yep, I just read that topic as well. Looks like it really may be 4e! Oh how I have waited for this day... apparently they're bringing back Kits...


I wonder if this has anything to do with them loosing Dragonlance.

eh?


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1345/1134318905_7ceba73e8e.jpg

Thank you Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Hilarious.

Lord Tirian
2007-08-16, 05:06 AM
Finally, there's the forums that was up for only a short minute showing topic discussions of 4th edition, that was quickly closed. Official, WotC forums. That still exist. (You can tell because you can't access them - not a missing page, no, you just can't access the page that is there).

Yep... In this post, there's a link to a screenshot (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3702883&postcount=31).

Looks pretty real (if that was 'shopping, it was quick, besides, several people have seen the same... and the links work).

Cheers, LT.

illathid
2007-08-16, 05:14 AM
I don't know how legit this is, but I found this link (http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193/).

And to all those that are saying that 4E is going to be purely electronic, I'm sorry to bust your bubble, but in various places WotC employees have flat out said that print books will not go the way of the dodo for some time. I'll try and find the quotes after I sleep.

The White Knight
2007-08-16, 05:18 AM
Heh, I enjoy the "Hallelujah!" and "Doomsday" Threads in that screenshot - they're actually giving people an official place to praise or whine.

Reinboom
2007-08-16, 05:22 AM
Heh, I enjoy the "Hallelujah!" and "Doomsday" Threads in that screenshot - they're actually giving people an official place to praise or whine.

Well, given the reactions before this event (we've seen it lately here as well - and it's been longer running in the wotc community forums), I would imagine it's more of WotC trying to prevent the two from flaming each other relentlessly.

Matthew
2007-08-16, 05:27 AM
Does anyone else here read Knights of the Dinner Table? A while ago, they did an arc about rushing a new edition out the door to boost flagging sales... along the lines of promising "33% more content" by bumping up the font size 22% and adding redundant sidebars and tables for the other 11%. The predictive powers of satire are astonishing...

That was a comment on the 2e revision in 1995, this would just be history repeating itself. So, one year to go.

Charity
2007-08-16, 05:50 AM
http://www.vdare.com/images/091706_ss_WelcomeOurNew.jpg

I for one welcome our new masters.

Matthew
2007-08-16, 05:59 AM
Whatever, Charity! You never even made the switch from 3.0 to 3.5!

albertstoop
2007-08-16, 06:27 AM
If it is the 4th edition then i think it will come out next year.

4e still uses miniatures

next year there will be a new starter set of miniatures with random + 4 standard figures.

Let me guess around then the 4e is coming out and there are only 4 main classes. fighter/cleric/mage/rogue????

Dhavaer
2007-08-16, 06:37 AM
The "streamlines parts...that are too complex" quote worries me somehow.

Premier
2007-08-16, 06:58 AM
As an enthusiastic 2E player, this news does not effect me in the least. Although I am vastly amused to know that in the near future, there will be such a thing as a '3E grognard.'

There won't be, no matter how many kids declare themselves such on ENWorld. Even 2E is not fully and 100% grognard yet, 3E players will have to wait at least one more decade for the title of grognardry.

If ever.

Jarlax
2007-08-16, 07:09 AM
the fact the PHB comes "packaged with pre-painted miniatures" according to that article hints that they will be making a definite move to miniature heavy combat, which is probably a bad sign for those hoping for more roleplay emphasis in the new edition but hardly surprising considering the popularity that miniature games are having at the moment.

however it looks like 4ed with its miniature focus will make online games more available through the wizards website that will let DMs Build adventures online for their players to play over the net.

i can definitely see how an emphasis on model combat will also "streamline parts of D&D that are too complex", like Combat and reach, flanking, tac-5 steps, etc.

Aotrs Commander
2007-08-16, 07:13 AM
The "streamlines parts...that are too complex" quote worries me somehow.

That worries me too.

My biggest concern is this May 2008 release date. I'm not sure whether or not to trust that. If it is, then I think we have a problem. WotC have, for months, answered every query about 4E with a denial that they were considering it. So either they were lying to their cutomer base (real smart) or they are planning on putting something out without mcuh play testing. I suspect, if true, they may have been 'stealth designing' using Saga and such as a base. However, even Saga's not been out very long, and I find it hard to believe they feel they've got enough feedback on that yet. So it may be that they have already decided (perhaps unofficially, so they could lie to us) to use some or all of Saga in 4th. (Which I personally I think is a big step back in a lot of respects, though Saga did have a few clever ideas). As Saga is simiplified a great deal, it leads me to beleive this even more.

Not to menton the pointlessness of the Rules Compendium. I suspect that will sell very few copies now, since many of the border-liners will probably not bother with it, or at least wait until they see what 4E is like.

On the other hand, it they are just announcing and preparing well in advance (12-24 months, say), to get a suitable amount of serious feedback (not idle speculation) then they are to be commended. If this is the case, then I shall look forward to 4E, confident they've thoguh enough about it. But, sadly, I very much doubt that.

And blocking the main D&D site was just childishly annoying.

Fortunately for me, I'll be up late enough to have a gander when it goes down, since it'll only be half-one when the timer expires.

Malek
2007-08-16, 07:16 AM
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

Seriously though I have two things I'd like to see in 4e:

1) NOT using Star Wars Saga Edition system like some people on WotC boards suggested - seriously it *sucked*

2) Some thing simmilar to (not necessarily identical) ToB maneuvers for fighter classes.

YPU
2007-08-16, 07:17 AM
I am going to make a wild guess as an option not mentioned yet. What if this 4E does not make 3.5 dnd obsolete, but works besides it? perhaps its entirely digital, perhaps its even a special program for playing DnD online. (this going on on many forums, it would seem like a good market to explore for them) this of course is falls hope. But hope anyway.

Also, I have a faint feeling of dread, fear and expectation about this, strange, I will probably be awake to see what it is anyway

Citizen Joe
2007-08-16, 07:23 AM
It's going to include collectible cards. I think they were already doing something like that for some classes and special abilities and stuff, but people just ignored the cards and played as if they had them.

It's going to suck... nobody will buy it... then they will can some people or pull out some expensive ingredient and repackage it as DND 3.9 Classic and sell all the books again.

Jarlax
2007-08-16, 07:24 AM
2) Some thing simmilar to (not necessarily identical) ToB maneuvers for fighter classes.

you wont see those for fighters because fighters are supposed to be the easy learner class (and there really would not be space for maneuvers in a PBH already crowded with spells).

however i wouldn't mind a variation on Maneuvers for casters, throw away the old spells per day for a more spells per combat style that means wizards can go all day instead of being the deciding factor for when the party rests.

Dhavaer
2007-08-16, 07:25 AM
I've heard it's going to be closer to a 3.75 than a full blown 4.0, but I don't know how accurate that is.

Dausuul
2007-08-16, 07:31 AM
The "streamlines parts...that are too complex" quote worries me somehow.

Really? That's my number one desire for 4E. Right now, combat at any level higher than about 6 or 7 involves far, far too much time spent adding up modifiers, tracking durations, looking up spell effects, trying to remember which debuff affects which stats, calculating the effect of 5 points of Strength damage on a monster's secondary natural weapon, and hunting for that last +1 under the couch.

And the grapple rules need a major fix, too.

leperkhaun
2007-08-16, 07:37 AM
hmmmmmm. Im not sure how i feel about this. Im kinda happy because it COULD allow them to redo some of the balance issues.....but ill bet its gonna be 3.5 updated thats going to cost more because now everything will have a box of mini's that come with it (FREE, the book now only costs 10 more bucks).

Funkyodor
2007-08-16, 07:42 AM
I think they might just skip 4th ed. and go straight to 5th ed. And make it a card game to boot.

"Aw man! How many Power Attacks do you have in that Character Pile?"
"Ah-ha! I counter with my Munchkin Card causing my kobold to gain infinate Stats and HP! Go Pun-Pun!"
"Crap, you accumulated enough gold to get your Rocks Fall People Die card to kill all active PC's and cripple retired PC's"

Aotrs Commander
2007-08-16, 07:47 AM
Really? That's my number one desire for 4E. Right now, combat at any level higher than about 6 or 7 involves far, far too much time spent adding up modifiers, tracking durations, looking up spell effects, trying to remember which debuff affects which stats, calculating the effect of 5 points of Strength damage on a monster's secondary natural weapon, and hunting for that last +1 under the couch.

And the grapple rules need a major fix, too.

There's simplification and there's simplification.

While I agree grappling needs to be cleaned up (taking into account nonhumanoids from the start would be favourite), and I could stand to lose the tracking the various bonus stacking, maybe by just making only the highest of any effect count (though myself I don't find it problematic) what worries me is the fact they may simplify the interesting bits - like skills and so on.

My biggest worry is that 4E will be basically a clone of Saga, which am not best impressed with. I really, really dislike the SW Saga skill system. I can just about tolerate it in SW, but every other system I've played has skills as the character's primary means of development. To me, it's a step back to AD&D. Or that in Saga, the differentiation between the classes has apparently dropped (which to me, kind of defeats the object of a class-based system). If it's simplified in that sort of manner, then I'm out.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-16, 07:49 AM
the fact the PHB comes "packaged with pre-painted miniatures" according to that article hints that they will be making a definite move to miniature heavy combat, which is probably a bad sign for those hoping for more roleplay emphasis in the new edition but hardly surprising considering the popularity that miniature games are having at the moment.


I believe Mattel has recently taken it on the nose, recalling MILLIONS of toys that were painted (with lead paint) in China. Pre-painting miniatures is a time consuming process that cannot possibly be done economically with American labor. If they do put out miniatures with sets they would much more likely be plastic and unpainted. Even that would bump up the age category.

Matthew
2007-08-16, 07:49 AM
A step back to AD&D? Oh happy days... very unlikely.

Jarlax
2007-08-16, 08:03 AM
I believe Mattel has recently taken it on the nose, recalling MILLIONS of toys that were painted (with lead paint) in China. Pre-painting miniatures is a time consuming process that cannot possibly be done economically with American labor. If they do put out miniatures with sets they would much more likely be plastic and unpainted. Even that would bump up the age category.

D&D minis would certainly count as pre-painted minis, so they already exist. you do it with machines, not people.

tarbrush
2007-08-16, 08:07 AM
I too am terrified of D&D for morons. Whilst I admit that the magic system needs a complete overhaul, and diplomacy needs to better tolerate high level characters (along with things like grapple etc), I don't think the basic mechanics are flawed. Seeing a reversion to AD&D would suck all the fun out of the game.

The only thing I can see its that they're trying to sell to a wider audience (Lookie everyone! Simple mechanics and brightly coloured minis) but I just can't see D&D going mainstream enough to make it worthwhile.

The Demented One
2007-08-16, 08:09 AM
Oh gods...if this really is 4th edition, that means the Monster Manual, and the SRD monsters, are all going to get put in the new format...

NO!

Citizen Joe
2007-08-16, 08:09 AM
I don't know if it would be a good idea, but they may drop the title Dungeons and Dragons and call it D20 System: Adventure. I still think cards are going to be part of it. DND has been slowly migrating back to its roots as a board game/battle simulator. Eventually, you won't even need a DM. All the rules will be hardcoded and you just draw encounters from a deck. :smallannoyed:

Actually, I would very much like to see specific examples put in to deal with applying certain rules/feats. Maybe something along the lines of PC1 does something and gets screwed because he doesn't have a certain feat, then PC2 does the same thing with a specific feat to demonstrate how they work.

Dausuul
2007-08-16, 08:10 AM
My biggest worry is that 4E will be basically a clone of Saga, which am not best impressed with. I really, really dislike the SW Saga skill system. I can just about tolerate it in SW, but every other system I've played has skills as the character's primary means of development. To me, it's a step back to AD&D. Or that in Saga, the differentiation between the classes has apparently dropped (which to me, kind of defeats the object of a class-based system). If it's simplified in that sort of manner, then I'm out.

*pauses to go read some reviews of Saga*

Okay, while I see where you're coming from, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. What I'm reading about Saga has me very impressed (no more iterative attacks, hallelujah!) and I hope to see a lot of those innovations carry over into 4E. I even like the look of the new skill system, though I hope it will be possible to add more "trained skills" as you level up.


I don't know if it would be a good idea, but they may drop the title Dungeons and Dragons and call it D20 System: Adventure.

Not bloody likely. Dungeons and Dragons is far too valuable a brand for them to just toss it over the side. That would be like the Coca-Cola corporation changing the name of their flagship product to FizzyDrink.

yango
2007-08-16, 08:11 AM
Oh gods...if this really is 4th edition, that means the Monster Manual, and the SRD monsters, are all going to get put in the new format...

NO!

This is going on the assumption that the new system will be similar enough that the new stat block format will be applicable.

Dausuul
2007-08-16, 08:25 AM
This is going on the assumption that the new system will be similar enough that the new stat block format will be applicable.

The exact format may not be, but the basic concept (separate sections for attack data, defense data, et cetera) certainly will.

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 08:34 AM
Yep... In this post, there's a link to a screenshot (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3702883&postcount=31).

Looks pretty real (if that was 'shopping, it was quick, besides, several people have seen the same... and the links work).

Cheers, LT.

I saw the forums for 4th edition, as well, for the brief time they were up.

MrNexx
2007-08-16, 08:37 AM
My biggest concern is this May 2008 release date. I'm not sure whether or not to trust that. If it is, then I think we have a problem. WotC have, for months, answered every query about 4E with a denial that they were considering it. So either they were lying to their cutomer base (real smart) or they are planning on putting something out without mcuh play testing. I suspect, if true, they may have been 'stealth designing' using Saga and such as a base. However, even Saga's not been out very long, and I find it hard to believe they feel they've got enough feedback on that yet. So it may be that they have already decided (perhaps unofficially, so they could lie to us) to use some or all of Saga in 4th. (Which I personally I think is a big step back in a lot of respects, though Saga did have a few clever ideas). As Saga is simiplified a great deal, it leads me to beleive this even more.

*sings*I told you!*

This is very close to what they did with 3.0; denydenydeny, Oh, wait you meant that new edition?

Fhaolan
2007-08-16, 08:39 AM
Packaged with prepainted miniatures? Interesting... Hadn't thought of that one. I was under the impression that the miniature product lines weren't doing so well in sales anymore, but that might be why they're thinking in that direction. Pushing harder the inventory they already have, as it were.

They've tried card accessories for D&D on several occasions. I have large boxes full of AD&D 2nd edition encounter and treasure cards somewhere, because people kept giving them to me. What I wanted was the spell cards, but I couldn't justify buying them myself.

Back when 3.0 was about to be announced, my friends and I were speculating that they were going to pull the spells and magic items out of the PHB and DMG, just to make them lighter, cheaper books to increase sales, and have the spell cards and magic item cards as an additional purchase. And elimiate the MM, using card sets for the monsters. It didn't make 100% sense, but there was an attraction to the idea as TSR had been bought out by WotC fairly recently and all we knew about WotC was Magic.

It makes the same sort of sense for Hasbro to be pushing more toys into D&D. Maybe they'll change the scale of minatures again, up a couple of notches so you can have accesories that clip onto the miniatures for customization. Just a touch larger than those Clix things that were popular for a brief span.

Charity
2007-08-16, 08:58 AM
Whatever, Charity! You never even made the switch from 3.0 to 3.5!

Nyuk nyuk.
Though in all honesty, there are things I prefer about 3.0.

Folk are going on like this is the end of all that is good, the dawning of a new dark era, the rise of the empire etc.
It's a new system (possibly) they won't be comming round and burning all your 3rd edition stuff, if you like 3rd ed... well continue to play 3rd ed, is my advice (not you Matthew, we all know you play 2nd ed hybridhomebrew, which sounds cool btw, I wish I could be arsed to do similar sometimes... usually when I'm tring to work out what happens when you grapple a dragon in mid air... ramble ramble)

Considering I havn't bought a full price D&D book .. ever I think I've had pretty good value out of mine. I played 1st ed, 3rd ed, guess I'll wait for 5th ed, I'm a bit odd like that.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-16, 08:59 AM
The even-odd rule applies to D&D?

:smalleek:

KIDS
2007-08-16, 09:05 AM
I'm not really sure it's a countdown for (presentation of) 4th edition, but I expect all the best from it when it comes!

Matthew
2007-08-16, 09:16 AM
http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=21975


Nyuk nyuk.
Though in all honesty, there are things I prefer about 3.0.

Yep, there are some better things about 3e - I'm looking at you Power Attack!


Folk are going on like this is the end of all that is good, the dawning of a new dark era, the rise of the empire etc.
It's a new system (possibly) they won't be comming round and burning all your 3rd edition stuff, if you like 3rd ed... well continue to play 3rd ed, is my advice (not you Matthew, we all know you play 2nd ed hybridhomebrew, which sounds cool btw, I wish I could be arsed to do similar sometimes... usually when I'm tring to work out what happens when you grapple a dragon in mid air... ramble ramble)

Hey, I use the appropriate editions when playing Pre Published Modules! But yeah, it's stuff like this that caused me to create my own edition for my own use.


Considering I havn't bought a full price D&D book .. ever I think I've had pretty good value out of mine. I played 1st ed, 3rd ed, guess I'll wait for 5th ed, I'm a bit odd like that.

No doubt.

rollfrenzy
2007-08-16, 09:22 AM
Nyuk nyuk.
*Snip*
I'm a bit odd like that.
**Groan**



I am (don't tell my group) looking forward to a new edition, especially if it is a more streamilined system. I just hope it isn't Miniatures: the RPG.

Ichneumon
2007-08-16, 09:34 AM
Anyone else noticed the enlarged D & D logo under 4dventure? You can see a dragonic symbol which could be the & and a part of each D.

RTGoodman
2007-08-16, 10:08 AM
Well, apparently I went to sleep for 8 hours or so, and there's now been an announcement of sorts. I'm not sure if it's official, but I don't think anyone' mentioned it on this board yet:


August 16, 2007 (Renton, WA) – Whether you storm a mad wizard's tower every week or haven't delved into a dungeon since you had a mullet and a mean pair of parachute pants, one thing is certain - millions of D&D players worldwide have anticipated the coming of 4th Edition for many years. Today, Wizards of the Coast confirms that the new edition will launch in May 2008 with the release of the D&D Player's Handbook. A pop culture icon, Dungeons & Dragons is the #1 tabletop roleplaying game in the world, and is revered by legions of gamers of all ages.

The 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons game includes elements familiar to current D&D players, including illustrated rulebooks and pre-painted plastic miniatures. Also releasing next year will be new web-based tools and online community forums through the brand-new Dungeons & Dragons Insider (D&D Insider) digital offering. D&D Insider lowers the barriers of entry for new players while simultaneously offering the depth of play that appeals to veteran players.

The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of "prep time" needed to run the game. D&D Insider includes a character creator that lets players design and equip their D&D characters, dungeon- and adventure-building tools for Dungeon Masters, online magazine content, and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet — the perfect option for anyone who can't find time to get together.

"We've been gathering player feedback for eight years," said Bill Slavicsek, R&D Director of Roleplaying and Miniatures Games at Wizards of the Coast. "Fourth Edition streamlines parts of the D&D game that are too complex, while enhancing the overall play experience. At its heart, it's still a tabletop game experience. However, D&D Insider makes it easier for players to create characters, run their games, and interact with the rest of the D&D community."

Wizards of the Coast will release two 4th Edition preview books in December and January — Wizards Presents: Classes and Races and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters. The first live demos of 4th Edition will happen at the D&D Experience gaming convention in Washington D.C. in February 2008. The full scope of 4th Edition books, miniatures, and adventures will be available in the spring and summer of 2008.

Since its first release in 1974, the fantasy roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons has taken millions of players on imaginary adventures of epic scale. Today, D&D is universally regarded as the original game that created the roleplaying game category, and the inspiration for generations of game designers. D&D is enjoyed by millions of players worldwide, while countless more remember it with fond nostalgia.

So there's that. Like I said though, I'm not sure if entirely legit, but it seems like it. Here's the link (http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193/) to the page it's on.

Tormsskull
2007-08-16, 10:14 AM
Oh this is awesome! The golden age of any edition, when the core books come out and before the first splat books come out. I'm looking forward to the new edition and to listening to all the die-hard 3Eers.

Ichneumon
2007-08-16, 10:18 AM
I will buy the 4e playerhandbook, maybe, if I like what they did with the spellcasting (Come one, WotC, we need a new spellcasting system other than Vancian, something more like the classes from, ToM or ToB and MoI)

Also, I would like to see what they did to races. I hope they made it more balanced and made it matter more, on the long term.

Matthew
2007-08-16, 10:22 AM
I will probably haunt the Internet, listening to people who have bought the PHB and then haunt my Game Shop, perusing the PHB. Then, I still probably won't buy it... (I inherited most of my 3e stuff)

banjo1985
2007-08-16, 10:22 AM
A new edition would be interesting, and it's been 7 years since the last iteration came out, so it might be getting towards the right time. My gaming group has completely moved away from 3.5, so it will be interesting to see whether a 4th edition would be good enough to bring us back to the fold.

Porthos
2007-08-16, 10:27 AM
One good thing is that it is being published under the OGL and there will be a brand spanking new SRD to go along with it. :smallcool:

Source (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3703604&postcount=80)

Really, this is just about the best news possible for 4E. If only so that we don't have to hear the whining from the Open Source Content crowd. :smallwink:

Arbitrarity
2007-08-16, 10:29 AM
Awesomesauce. That is made of win, for it means we can examine the mechanics.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-16, 10:36 AM
One good thing is that it is being published under the OGL and there will be a brand spanking new SRD to go along with it. :smallcool:

Source (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3703604&postcount=80)

Really, this is just about the best news possible for 4E. If only so that we don't have to hear the whining from the Open Source Content crowd. :smallwink:

What I want to know is if they're going to relax OGL on 3.5e.

Grey Paladin
2007-08-16, 10:37 AM
Well in case you needed any more official confirmations, Silver Stars (the Israeli Roleplaying publisher) has made an official announcement about 4E just now.

They have also given the following release dates for the English editions of the core books.

The Player's Handbook will be released at May 2008,
Each month after that another book will be released,
The Monster Manual will be released second and the Dungeon Master's Guide will be released third, it also seems there will be 7 (!) core books this time around, but 4 of them are optional and Silver Stars refused to tell us about them, speculations are that one of them is the new Psioncs Handbook.

The system will stay D20, OGL, and will have a new SRD constructed for it within half a year of its release.

Matthew
2007-08-16, 10:38 AM
Just in:

http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showpost.php?p=556970&postcount=157



This was posted on ENWORLD


Wizards of the Coast is announcing at GenCon today that it will release the 4th Edition of its category-leading Dungeons and Dragon roleplaying game in 2008, the first full new edition in eight years. The three core books will be released next summer on a monthly schedule: Player's Handbook in May, Monster Manual in June, and Dungeon Master's Guide in July. Pricing and page counts of the new products will be consistent with current packaging. Graphics have been updated, art will be used on the covers, and interior design has been opened up to make the books less intimidating to new players.


Green Dragon by Wayne Reynolds


Lead-in products, Wizards Presents: Classes and Races and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters, will be released in December. An April release, Keep of the Shadowfell, will include a set of quickstart rules for 4E.



While there are changes in play (such as incorporating "epic-level play," with 30 levels instead of 20), they are described as "evolutionary" rather than "revolutionary." Other changes include new power sources, changes in resource management, and new encounter design, and more clearly defined monster roles. Changes will speed play, make the game easier to learn, and make DM-ing easier. Concepts for 4th Edition gameplay were tested in the new Star Wars RPG, and the Book of 9 Swords.



What the company does describe as revolutionary is the method of product delivery, which will incorporate online play for the first time. WotC is incorporating online components into the game through a new Website, DnDInsider.com. Each paper product will include codes to unlock digital versions on the site for a "nominal" activation fee. Players will also be able to use DnDInsider tools and access regular new content similar to the material that was previously released in Dragon and Dungeon magazines (see "Interview with Liz Schuh") for a monthly fee (as yet undetermined) greater than the old subscription price, but less than a MMORPG subscription. Magazine-style content will be added to the site three times a week and compiled into digital "issues" monthly.




Halfling Male Cleric Concept Sketch


Gameplay features on the Web will include a digital D&D game table, and voice chat and text messaging, to allow online players to communicate with each other. The online play is designed to "supplement, not replace" meatspace play.



The Open Gaming License will continue as it has in the past, allowing the use of the rules in other publishers' games.



Work on the new edition began in 2005, with the major work all accomplished in the last year.



D&D products released between now and the launch of 4th Edition will fall into three groups. Edition-proof products (which are mostly story) will not include mechanics that are edition-specific. Some products will be "enhanced" to 4th Edition mechanics after release through DnDInsider, and a couple of series will end as 3.5 products.



The setting for the core books are campaign neutral. Forgotten Realms will be the first campaign setting to be updated (in August 2008). Other campaign settings will be updated at a rate of one per year.


Marketing support will initially focus on migrating the existing player base, and then move to an acquisition strategy to re-activate lapsed players and acquire new ones. Midnight launch parties will be used to kick off sales of the first new release in May.

Source: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html

horseboy
2007-08-16, 10:38 AM
I too am terrified of D&D for morons. Isn't that redundant? :smallwink:
Whilst I admit that the magic system needs a complete overhaul, and diplomacy needs to better tolerate high level characters (along with things like grapple etc), I don't think the basic mechanics are flawed. Seeing a reversion to AD&D would suck all the fun out of the game.
You get used to it, after a while.

The only thing I can see its that they're trying to sell to a wider audience (Lookie everyone! Simple mechanics and brightly coloured minis) but I just can't see D&D going mainstream enough to make it worthwhile.
That's what we said about 3.0.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-16, 10:39 AM
XPH, TOB, TOM, MOI must be optional core :smallbiggrin:

blue_fenix
2007-08-16, 10:40 AM
4th edition? If it is so, may God have mercy on our collective souls.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-16, 10:40 AM
Well in case you needed any more official confirmations, Silver Stars (the Israeli Roleplaying publisher) has made an official announcement about 4E just now.

They have also given the following release dates for the English editions of the core books.

The Player's Handbook will be released at May 2008,
Each month after that another book will be released,
The Monster Manual will be released second and the Dungeon Master's Guide will be released third, it also seems there will be 7 (!) core books this time around, but 4 of them are optional and Silver Stars refused to tell us about them, speculations are that one of them is the new Psioncs Handbook.

The system will stay D20, OGL, and will have a new SRD constructed for it within half a year of its release.

Money says: Core: PHB, MM, DMG

Expanded Core: XPH, MoI, ToM, ToB

RTGoodman
2007-08-16, 10:41 AM
Well in case you needed any more official confirmations, Silver Stars (the Israeli Roleplaying publisher) has made an official announcement about 4E just now.

They have also given the following release dates for the English editions of the core books.

The Player's Handbook will be released at May 2008,
Each month after that another book will be released,
The Monster Manual will be released second and the Dungeon Master's Guide will be released third, it also seems there will be 7 (!) core books this time around, but 4 of them are optional and Silver Stars refused to tell us about them, speculations are that one of them is the new Psioncs Handbook.

The system will stay D20, OGL, and will have a new SRD constructed for it within half a year of its release.

Do you have a link for that? I'd like to check it out (assuming it's in English).

Matthew
2007-08-16, 10:44 AM
Read it in full above (#211) or check here: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html

Looks like ToB will be Core. That should polarise the community.

SoulCatcher78
2007-08-16, 10:45 AM
I'm hoping for something between SWSE and C&C but I don't know if I would be that tempted to buy into another new system past a PhB. Since I purchased C&C, I really don't need a streamlined game but additional source info that's already streamlined might be nice. Let's face it, the monster books haven't really been that original since the early 90s (if even then) and unless there're some radical differences, most of us wont be rushing to purchase a DMG (if you haven't figured it out by now, another book isn't going to help you). I think this is just following the normal cycle of new gamers not wanting to purchase 5 years worth of material to be current so we restart with the core and build up the bloat from there.

Lord Herman
2007-08-16, 10:47 AM
Personally, I'm not too worried about 4th edition. Sure, I've spent a lot of money on 3.5e books, but I do feel the system is in need of an overhaul. I just hope they overhaul it in the right direction...

RTGoodman
2007-08-16, 10:48 AM
Thanks, but I was looking for something that mentioned seven Core books. That just seems excessive to me (even if some are optional), and I wanted to see if there was any reasoning behind it.

Grey Paladin
2007-08-16, 10:48 AM
Do you have a link for that? I'd like to check it out (assuming it's in English).

Sadly its in Hebrew. :smallyuk:


Also, I pretty much summed up exactly what they've said, they gave very little information beside this and some forum in-jokes.

Hopefully they've messed up the terms and there are only 3 core books.

banjo1985
2007-08-16, 10:49 AM
Thanks, but I was looking for something that mentioned seven Core books. That just seems excessive to me (even if some are optional), and I wanted to see if there was any reasoning behind it.

7 core books = more money, that's about all the reason they need...

Porthos
2007-08-16, 10:51 AM
Read it in full above (#211) or check here: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html

Looks like ToB will be Core. That should polarise the community.

It's "Optional" Core. :smalltongue:

That single word is going to cause more arguments in the DnD world that anything that has come before it. :smallbiggrin:

Ichneumon
2007-08-16, 10:51 AM
7 is really insane.

Isn't the whole idea of non-core material that it is optional?

RTGoodman
2007-08-16, 10:52 AM
7 core books = more money, that's about all the reason they need...

Oh, of course. I just meant I reason that I support.:smallbiggrin:

Grey Paladin, thanks anyway. I imagine some American or British site will find out about it and tell us all about it. Probably in the next couple of hours.

Unfortunately, I'll be working this evening at the official announcement time (in a place with no internet access, even!) so I'll have to wait about 3 1/2 hours after the GenCon announcement before I find anything out.:smallfurious:

EDIT: Huh... it seems all this excitement and posting about 4E has turned me from a halfling into a dwarf!

Leon
2007-08-16, 10:52 AM
Well, Bugger

Arbitrarity
2007-08-16, 10:53 AM
It's "Optional" Core. :smalltongue:

That single word is going to cause more arguments in the DnD world that anything that has come before it. :smallbiggrin:

*To the DM*: ToB will be core in 4.0! Allow it! It's revolutionary design, and also full of win!

Rob Knotts
2007-08-16, 10:53 AM
I'm fine with waiting to see how it turns out, I've got some hope 4e will streamline the system as much as d20 Modern did. In any case, I sold most of my 3x collection* on ebay a couple months ago, so I don't have a problem with buying new books. Of course, I kept the Draconomicon and Lords of Madness. I may be burnt out on D&D 3x, but I'm not stupid:smallwink:

Matthew
2007-08-16, 10:54 AM
*To the Player* Will you ever shut up about this you stupid Fan Boy? No means no (yes, even in this context).

Evil DM Mark3
2007-08-16, 10:54 AM
The only downside is that they woun't have shot the lame duck that is Forgotten Realms.

Ah well, I can dream.

Still WotC can expect a massive plunge in sales untill May.

That is to say anyone even vaugley aware of what they are doing will drop out of buying new material.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-16, 10:56 AM
yes

Out of context quotes for the win :smallbiggrin:

Porthos
2007-08-16, 10:56 AM
Thanks, but I was looking for something that mentioned seven Core books. That just seems excessive to me (even if some are optional), and I wanted to see if there was any reasoning behind it.

Well, let's face it, the Psionic Handbook has been a defacto "Optional" Core Book for years now. I figure that WotC looked at which books got Extreme Chatter/Use and decided to make them semi-Core. They couldn't go all out and make them all Core, as then they would have a minor revolt on their hands. But if they called them "Optional" Core (which means almost nothing), then they probably feel that they can have their cake and eat it too.

And if it looks like most people are using the "Optional" Core as "Real" Core, then all seven books will be Core when 5E eventually comes out. :smalltongue:

The Demented One
2007-08-16, 10:57 AM
Oh great...now they want us to subscribe online to get content? Explains why the pulled Dragon and Dungeon out of print.

Ichneumon
2007-08-16, 10:57 AM
That is to say anyone even vaugley aware of what they are doing will drop out of buying new material.

That is so true.

Evil DM Mark3
2007-08-16, 11:01 AM
Oh great...now they want us to subscribe online to get content? Explains why the pulled Dragon and Dungeon out of print.

Wait you werent expecting that? This is the Information age, of course they are going to want to ramp up Online content. Now I understand what Gleemax was the infiltration force. But in order to prode people onwards you have to shoot the packbeast they are allready using with a hammergun.

Signing off now before this grill of a metaphore gets even more mixed.

Malic
2007-08-16, 11:01 AM
Lame I just got into 3.5 edition and now there's a new one. Why does this happen with every hobby I start :smallmad:

RTGoodman
2007-08-16, 11:02 AM
Oh great...now they want us to subscribe online to get content? Explains why the pulled Dragon and Dungeon out of print.

Yeah, that bothers me a little. I quit playing WoW after two or three months because I despise anything that I have to pay by-the-month to play. Well, that and WoW sucks. A lot.

That's not saying that you'll be forced to pay to play D&D 4E, but the stuff mentioned above makes it seem like updates, errata, and web enhancements (you know, stuff we should and currently do get for free) will cost a "nominal fee." I'm betting it'll be around $8-10 US.

Grey Paladin
2007-08-16, 11:02 AM
Just to expand on my edit in the last post, The announcement can be read in two completely different ways , and while the other 4 books were called optional they WERE grouped together with the first three core books and dubbed core by this part: "The first core book (the Player's handbook) will be released in may 2008, and another book in the series will be released each month, there are plans for seven books in total although 4 are optional"

The more I read it the more it strikes me as if they simply misunderstood, as hard as it is to believe Silver Stars edit/word worse then WotC despite only having to translate . . .

Dragonmuncher
2007-08-16, 11:04 AM
Money says: Core: PHB, MM, DMG

Expanded Core: XPH, MoI, ToM, ToB


MoI? Really? It's a neat enough system, but I was under the impression that after it was released, WotC didn't give it a second look. No support in additional boards, or anything. In fact, weren't there some outcries over on the Wizards board that Incarnum didn't have its own message board? (I don't know, I don't go on those boards much)



I wasn't around for the 2e-3e switch, or even the 3-3.5 switch, so this is all new to me. Are you saying that books like ToB, or XPH, will just be retroactively become 4e books? Or that they'll write new, 4e-compatible versions of these books? Or make a few web guidelines instructing players on how to convert these books into 4e?

ALOR
2007-08-16, 11:05 AM
Well I guess we should have seen this coming
If it's not something completly diffrent than 3e, i can't see my self buying it.
The only thing that sounded a little bit interesting was the online gaming table.

Matthew
2007-08-16, 11:05 AM
MoI? Really? It's a neat enough system, but I was under the impression that after it was released, WotC didn't give it a second look. No support in additional boards, or anything. In fact, weren't there some outcries over on the Wizards board that Incarnum didn't have its own message board? (I don't know, I don't go on those boards much)

I wasn't around for the 2e-3e switch, or even the 3-3.5 switch, so this is all new to me. Are you saying that books like ToB, or XPH, will just be retroactively become 4e books? Or that they'll write new, 4e-compatible versions of these books? Or make a few web guidelines instructing players on how to convert these books into 4e?


New compatable versions, new enough to render the old redundent.

I really hope they drop Iterative Attacks and adopt Saga Saving Throws...

Stephen_E
2007-08-16, 11:06 AM
Read it in full above (#211) or check here: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html

Looks like ToB will be Core. That should polarise the community.

Well to be precise the ToB concepts will be core, as will some of the SW Saga stuff. But yeah, I can see both of those having the potential to polarise the community.

------------------------
Concepts for 4th Edition gameplay were tested in the new Star Wars RPG, and the Book of 9 Swords.
-----------------------

Stephen

Rob Knotts
2007-08-16, 11:07 AM
The preview books are already up for preorder on Amazon:

Wizard's Presents: Classes and Races
Dec. 18 2007, $13.57 ($19.95)

Wizard's Presents: World and Monsters
Jan. 15 2008, $13.57 ($19.95)

Matthew
2007-08-16, 11:08 AM
Well to be precise the ToB concepts will be core, as will some of the SW Saga stuff. But yeah, I can see both of those having the potential to polarise the community.

------------------------
Concepts for 4th Edition gameplay were tested in the new Star Wars RPG, and the Book of 9 Swords.
-----------------------

Stephen

Indeed, I was using a poor short hand. Presumably, Fighters will have ToB type Skills/Manoeuvres by default...

Alternatively, they might not and we'll just see new expansion books that contain optional rules for adding them (which would be good). Who knows?

Arbitrarity
2007-08-16, 11:09 AM
Now the question is, what parts of ToB? Probably not the flavor, but I'm betting the per-encounter mechanic, and maybe the manuvers. Manuvers (/spells/powers/selectable abilities) for every class though, would seem to be extremely complex and take up a lot of space. Anyone have any data on SW Saga, so we can try and figure out what sort of concepts?

Neek
2007-08-16, 11:09 AM
I'm not too worried, and not too concerned either. Provided that 4th Edition improves on the things that made 3rd edition bad, and does little by itself to create new problems (though some problems may exist...) I'm glad that concepts that were listed in ToB have become core, and I'm glad they played with the system a little. Though that article... it meas more that 4.0 is really not going to be mindblowing, not like the switch of 2e to 3e, but more like 1st edition Vampire the Masquerade to 2nd and 3rd. The core mechanics will remain the same, but just slight tweaking.

I'm not too worried since I never bought any splatbooks, and only bought core 3.0 books. 3.5 books will suddenly become much cheaper. :D

Yuki Akuma
2007-08-16, 11:10 AM
MoI? Really? It's a neat enough system, but I was under the impression that after it was released, WotC didn't give it a second look. No support in additional boards, or anything. In fact, weren't there some outcries over on the Wizards board that Incarnum didn't have its own message board? (I don't know, I don't go on those boards much)



I wasn't around for the 2e-3e switch, or even the 3-3.5 switch, so this is all new to me. Are you saying that books like ToB, or XPH, will just be retroactively become 4e books? Or that they'll write new, 4e-compatible versions of these books? Or make a few web guidelines instructing players on how to convert these books into 4e?

Wizards have said that they want Incarnum to become a staple of D&D. They were planning on expanding it further. And, hey, it's a while until May 2008, and Wizards tends to release a new book every two to four weeks..

Matthew
2007-08-16, 11:11 AM
Now the question is, what parts of ToB? Probably not the flavor, but I'm betting the per-encounter mechanic, and maybe the manuvers. Manuvers (/spells/powers/selectable abilities) for every class though, would seem to be extremely complex and take up a lot of space. Anyone have any data on SW Saga, so we can try and figure out what sort of concepts?

I hope they dump the stupid Encounter mechanic. I hate that aspect of 3e.

Porthos
2007-08-16, 11:15 AM
As part of the "Dungeons and Dragons Insider Experience"


-D&D Humor (comic strips devoted to the D&D experience)

A resurrection of the Dragon version of Order of the Stick, perhaps?

One can hope at least. :smallsmile:

Tellah
2007-08-16, 11:16 AM
I may be the only one, but I'm excited about the idea of an officially supported, voice-chat-enabled, online gaming platform. I've wanted to DM games like that for ages now, but every tool I've tried has been clunky and poorly suited to the game mechanics at hand.