best cyst

[deathbymanga]

can i get some help making the best necrotic cyst mage? Which classes and races work best with the feat? Beyond just "wizard"

[Nifft]

Sorcerers benefit the most from the Mother Cyst feat -- their major limit is spells known, and Mother Cyst expands that list. Also, the cyst spells are often quite situational, so you might not prepare the right ones as a Wizard.

So that's my suggestion -- be a Sorcerer.

For maximum Darkness™, you can go Sorcerer 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / Dread Witch 5 -- throw on a Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium and you'll have a lot of spells known.

[Anthrowhale]

Be a Spontaneous Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) and take Versatile Spellcaster. At level 5, you can use 2 3rd level spell slots to cast Necrotic Domination giving you the effect of Dominate Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm) 4 levels ahead of schedule. Necrotic Tumor then comes online at level 11 giving you the effect of Dominate Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominateMonster.htm) 6 levels ahead of schedule. ... Except these effects are even better than their analogues because they are not mind-affecting and hence far more universally applicable.

[Venger]

Sorcerers benefit the most from the Mother Cyst feat -- their major limit is spells known, and Mother Cyst expands that list. Also, the cyst spells are often quite situational, so you might not prepare the right ones as a Wizard.

So that's my suggestion -- be a Sorcerer.

For maximum Darkness™, you can go Sorcerer 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / Dread Witch 5 -- throw on a Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium and you'll have a lot of spells known.
Solid.

I personally like beguiler 5/ wild soul 4/ fiend-blooded 6/ wild soul 9. beguiler's got advanced learning, plus it's got umd for stuff from other lists as well and options such as runestaves. like with sorcerer, versatile spellcaster's a no-brainer.

I like entice gift for beguiler's advanced learning. wild soul adds a ton of spells to your list as well. I advise the unseelie path, since their spells are better as a spontaneous caster.

for fiendish sorcery, I advice pronouncement of fate, kyristan's malevolent tentacles, and avasculate


Be a Spontaneous Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) and take Versatile Spellcaster. At level 5, you can use 2 3rd level spell slots to cast Necrotic Domination giving you the effect of Dominate Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm) 4 levels ahead of schedule. Necrotic Tumor then comes online at level 11 giving you the effect of Dominate Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominateMonster.htm) 6 levels ahead of schedule. ... Except these effects are even better than their analogues because they are not mind-affecting and hence far more universally applicable.

mother cyst's efficacy can't be overstated. definitely a good trick if spontaneous cleric's allowed, but cleric sort of needs it less than a more limited caster who feels the benefit a bit more, like sand shapers and whatnot.

[Rebel7284]

If you are trying to get access to these spells as soon as possible (and cheesy reading of Versatile Spellcaster isn't allowed), you can try using a fast progression class such as Ur Priest. Something like Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 2 to enter for extra survivability and automatic debuffs.

[Venger]

If you are trying to get access to these spells as soon as possible (and cheesy reading of Versatile Spellcaster isn't allowed), you can try using a fast progression class such as Ur Priest. Something like Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 2 to enter for extra survivability and automatic debuffs.

I'd certainly like to see the intersection in the venn diagrams where allowing versatile spellcaster to work normally isn't allowed, but ur-priest is.

If you decide to go ur-priest, savage bard is the traditional route. it makes ur-priest's extreme taxes go down a lot easier. provides some cha synergy so you can invest a little for your rebuke pool for divine feats. don't forget to book a reservation at the otyugh hole, have some beer and jalapeno poppers with wizards qualifying for incantatrix and stuff.

[Boci]

I'd certainly like to see the intersection in the venn diagrams where allowing versatile spellcaster to work normally isn't allowed, but ur-priest is.

I imagine it would be "Using material for its intended purpose is okay". You can argue versatile spellcaster wasn't meant to give you access to higher spells earlier and merely allow more choices for use of the spell slots you already have, but Ur-priests was definitely meant to give you access to high level spells earlier, unless someone really messed up how PrC's work.

[Anthrowhale]

I imagine it would be "Using material for its intended purpose is okay". You can argue versatile spellcaster wasn't meant to give you access to higher spells earlier and merely allow more choices for use of the spell slots you already have, but Ur-priests was definitely meant to give you access to high level spells earlier, unless someone really messed up how PrC's work.

If Versatile Spellcaster is off the table, an Ur-Priest provides an advantage for exactly one level (ECL 12) where Necrotic Tumor comes online sooner. The downsides are much more significant since access to earlier spell levels is retarded.

[Nifft]

I imagine it would be "Using material for its intended purpose is okay". You can argue versatile spellcaster wasn't meant to give you access to higher spells earlier and merely allow more choices for use of the spell slots you already have, but Ur-priests was definitely meant to give you access to high level spells earlier, unless someone really messed up how PrC's work.

This.

RAW you can't cast spells until your caster level is high enough to qualify for those spells: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel

Caster level shenanigans might be sufficient to circumvent this if you have a very forgiving DM, but Versatile Spellcaster alone does not provide any.

[Quertus]

Ya know, I never noticed that Necrotic Tumor was significantly better than Dominate Monster. I guess I know what I'm doing with my next character.


I'd certainly like to see the intersection in the venn diagrams where allowing versatile spellcaster to work normally isn't allowed, but ur-priest is.


I imagine it would be "Using material for its intended purpose is okay". You can argue versatile spellcaster wasn't meant to give you access to higher spells earlier and merely allow more choices for use of the spell slots you already have, but Ur-priests was definitely meant to give you access to high level spells earlier, unless someone really messed up how PrC's work.

There's a lot of intersection points, actually. From tables I'm familiar with, there's what you said, "anything Rules as Intended is allowed". Then there's "anything RAW is allowed" that doesn't read versatile spellcaster's words to mean what you think they mean. And let's not forget tables with limited sources allowed which include one but not the other. Or even DM prejudice, grandfather clauses, or "I can't **** with this once I allow versatile spellcaster, but Ur-priest is just asking me to **** with it" could produce this result.

So, yeah, lots of reasons this could happen. Anybody got some I've missed?

[Anthrowhale]

This.

RAW you can't cast spells until your caster level is high enough to qualify for those spells: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel

Caster level shenanigans might be sufficient to circumvent this if you have a very forgiving DM, but Versatile Spellcaster alone does not provide any.

Relying on caster level to nerf Versatile Spellcaster seems like an exercise in frustration. Looking here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444635-Raising-Caster-Level) by character level 5 there are Barbs of Hextor, Death Knell, Fiendish Power, Frozen Magic, Metamagic Vigor, Primitive Spellcaster, Reserves of Strength, Evil Domain, Necromancy Domain, Sickening Grasp, Node Magic, and Spell Gifted.

[Rebel7284]

I mean, if the DM is okay with obscure and non-RAI ways of getting spells early, may I recommend the following:

Savage Bard 1/Were Fleshraker 4/Ur Priest 4

Once you reach Ur Priest 4, cast remove curse on yourself and succeed on the will save (primary Wis, Iron Will, you can do this).

Your build becomes Savage Bard 1/Ur Priest 4 self-qualifying. Carry on from here.

While this works perfectly RAW, protection against flying D&D manuals is left as an exercise for the reader.

[noob]

I mean, if the DM is okay with obscure and non-RAI ways of getting spells early, may I recommend the following:

Savage Bard 1/Were Fleshraker 4/Ur Priest 4

Once you reach Ur Priest 4, cast remove curse on yourself and succeed on the will save (primary Wis, Iron Will, you can do this).

Your build becomes Savage Bard 1/Ur Priest 4 self-qualifying. Carry on from here.

While this works perfectly RAW, protection against flying D&D manuals is left as an exercise for the reader.

give wings to the manuals then cast protection against winged flyers?

[Crake]

I mean, if the DM is okay with obscure and non-RAI ways of getting spells early, may I recommend the following:

Savage Bard 1/Were Fleshraker 4/Ur Priest 4

Once you reach Ur Priest 4, cast remove curse on yourself and succeed on the will save (primary Wis, Iron Will, you can do this).

Your build becomes Savage Bard 1/Ur Priest 4 self-qualifying. Carry on from here.

While this works perfectly RAW, protection against flying D&D manuals is left as an exercise for the reader.

To be fair, if you want to shunt yourself back 30k xp just to be able to early entry Ur priest, and make yourself feeble as all hell in the process while hoping to catch up faster than you die repeatedly, in a game that will likely end in about 3 levels time.... Go right ahead!

[Rebel7284]

To be fair, if you want to shunt yourself back 30k xp just to be able to early entry Ur priest, and make yourself feeble as all hell in the process while hoping to catch up faster than you die repeatedly, in a game that will likely end in about 3 levels time.... Go right ahead!


Sounds like a good gamble to me! However if you aren't comfortable with the idea of playing catch-up, you can also use a Thought Bottle to set your experience back to level 11, jumping directly to 9th level spells.

[Quertus]

Sounds like a good gamble to me! However if you aren't comfortable with the idea of playing catch-up, you can also use a Thought Bottle to set your experience back to level 11, jumping directly to 9th level spells.

So, just how playable is this character for levels 1-10, before their "trick" comes online?

EDIT: I mean, at level 2, they're a powerhouse with crushing level penalties, and are probably murdering people in their sleep, so there's that. Btw, what do "good" lycanthropes do when they first change? Because any GM that would allow this level of cheese would probably consider were-fleshrakers to be, culturally, "good". :smalltongue:

[Anthrowhale]

There's a more direct approach to retroactive early entry via the rebuild rules in PHB II.

You can also use this method to ... add in.. prestige class levels... If reallocating your character's class levels disqualifies him for a prestige class in which he already has one or more levels ... He retains ... any improvements to ... base save bonuses that those levels provide.

Ur-Priest doesn't provide a good Fort save, but everything other prerequisite (feats, skills, Will save, alignment) self-qualifies immediately. Hence, you can use two rebuild quests to change a Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) 5/Ur-Priest 1 into a Savage Bard 1/Ur-Priest 5. Later, when the character is 9th level a rebuild quest can transform Savage Bard 1/Ur-Priest 8 into Ur-Priest 9.

This is no muss, no fuss, and plausibly rules-as-intended. Of course, access to rebuild quests is DM-dependent.

[Boci]

This is no muss, no fuss, and plausibly rules-as-intended. Of course, access to rebuild quests is DM-dependent.

Qualifying for a PrC with the abilities it grants is pretty up there on the probability scale of "unintended RAW".

[Anthrowhale]

Qualifying for a PrC with the abilities it grants is pretty up there on the probability scale of "unintended RAW".

You should read the section. Page 102 says:

After your character goes through the ... rebuilding process, you might notice that he doesn't quite match the specs of a similar character built up to the same level by the normal method.

[Boci]

You should read the section. Page 102 says:

And your take from that is self-qualifying its totally intended?

[Nifft]

Qualifying for a PrC with the abilities it grants is pretty up there on the probability scale of "unintended RAW".

Agree with this, and I find the "self-qualifying" reading to be highly questionable.

It's not how I read that section, and not what I allow at the table.

Rebuilds are cool -- spitting in the face of intent is not.

[Anthrowhale]

And your take from that is self-qualifying its totally intended?

It's clearly intended to allow builds that can't be made without a rebuild. Whether that includes self-qualifying or not is unclear.

W.r.t. 'not how I read', I don't know any other way to read the rebuild section---the rules are fairly well defined.

W.r.t. 'not allowing at your table', rebuilds are explicitly gated by the DM, as per magic item creation.

[Rebel7284]

So, just how playable is this character for levels 1-10, before their "trick" comes online?

EDIT: I mean, at level 2, they're a powerhouse with crushing level penalties, and are probably murdering people in their sleep, so there's that.

I have not played this sort of build myself, but here is my analysis.

The LA is a drawback, but Fleshrakers are pretty great for their HD with all of those natural attacks/pounce/poison, so I think that you start off being an above average fighter.
Slowly you turn into a gish/buffer as you get access to more and more spells. Stuff like Protection from Evil and Close Wounds are certainly useful, even if you feel very behind those first two levels of Ur Priest. At Ur Priest 3, you have stuff like Shivering Touch and are becoming a real utility caster, even if you're 2 spell levels behind a cleric so are not a primary caster yet.
At Ur Priest 4, you are just one spell level behind the primary casters. Can finally get Divine Metamagic[Persistent Spell] and can shed your LA/HD to start leveling every encounter or get 9th level spells depending on item availability. I think getting DMM at this time helps survivability greatly as the persisted buffs make up for the lost hitpoints and saves.



Btw, what do "good" lycanthropes do when they first change? Because any GM that would allow this level of cheese would probably consider were-fleshrakers to be, culturally, "good". :smalltongue:

Admittedly, that is a very easy and within the rules way the DM can screw you out of Ur Priest. That Control Shape skill check to keep your alignment is hard to make at level 1. With that said, poison use is almost exclusively evil in D&D, so I would have trouble believing that poisonous velociraptors of all things would end up being good...

Clearly, any 4HD (carnivorous or omnivorous) animal works for this, so find whichever one is evil. :)

I don't think any other 4HD animal will be as great at fighting as a Fleshraker in the early levels, but the path to early 9th level spells shouldn't be too easy. :)

[Nifft]

It's clearly intended to allow builds that can't be made without a rebuild. Whether that includes self-qualifying or not is unclear.

The rebuild section has an example of disqualifying self-qualification.

I've highlighted that section, including the example:

https://i.imgur.com/28xSrYB.png


Now, you might not find that explicit enough, but to me it's pretty clear -- you need to qualify for a PrC before you're able to consider the benefits from levels in that PrC.

If you don't qualify for a PrC with your "remaining class levels", then you get a non-functional PrC.

You get the BAB and save bonuses, but no class features.

That's how I read the rebuild rules.

[Anthrowhale]

Now, you might not find that explicit enough, but to me it's pretty clear -- you need to qualify for a PrC before you're able to consider the benefits from levels in that PrC.
The highlighted part applies "if you want to take levels in a prestige class that's new to your character". A Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 1 already has an Ur-Priest level so this clause does not apply.

[Boci]

The highlighted part applies "if you want to take levels in a prestige class that's new to your character". A Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 1 already has an Ur-Priest level so this clause does not apply.

A relevant point for RAW wrangling. Really stretching it for a case of Rules as Intended plausibility.

[Nifft]

The highlighted part applies "if you want to take levels in a prestige class that's new to your character". A Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 1 already has an Ur-Priest level so this clause does not apply.

He does not qualify for the prestige class with the remaining class levels.

So he keeps the Ur-Priest level, but does not get any Ur-Priest class features (for example: spellcasting).

The text advises him to re-train those now-useless prestige class levels away at the earliest opportunity.

[Anthrowhale]

He does not qualify for the prestige class with the remaining class levels.
I agree that you can take the rules out of context in this fashion. I even think that's fine as a houserule. But, the rest of the sentence is there and that context implies that the "remaining levels" clause only applies when you are taking a "new" prestige class which does not apply in this example.

W.r.t. rules as intended, I don't see a good way to resolve things further. On the minus side, many people obviously find the RAW unintuitive. On the plus side, the rules are explicitly DM perview, the rules warn that the result may not be equivalent to any straight build, and the text would be simpler if they wanted the "remaining levels" clause to always apply. Something like:
You can also use this method to trade out (or add in) prestige class levels, though if you want to take levels in a prestige class, you must be able to demonstrate... which just plain drops the "that's new to your character" phrase.

[Nifft]

I agree that you can take the rules out of context in this fashion. Nah, that's wrong -- the one example they give is explicitly denying the example character self-qualification for a PrC. The context is in very firm support for what I'm saying.

It's clearer in the other sections -- and that could be used to establish a pattern for where the text is unclear, and where your reading may have originated -- that this section doesn't have as clear an exclusion as the earlier sections.

Perhaps the writers had hoped the reader would catch on to the established pattern, and didn't want to repeat themselves.


I even think that's fine as a houserule. How gracious of you!

But luckily it's not, since it's the rules as I read them and apply them at my table.

(Well, unless you're also claiming ~your~ reading is a houserule -- then I guess both of ours might be, by your definition -- but I don't think you are saying that.)


W.r.t. rules as intended, I don't see a good way to resolve things further. Here's one good way: read the other sections and follow their pattern.

The Feats section explicitly tells you that you need to be able to show you would qualify for each replacement feat at the time you would have taken it.

That's a great example of how the general case ought to have been written, and how it should be understood.

https://i.imgur.com/lHq4VCg.png

[Anthrowhale]

Nah, that's wrong -- the one example they give is explicitly denying the example character self-qualification for a PrC. The context is in very firm support for what I'm saying.

The one example they give is about adding Dwarven Defender 1 to a Fighter build triggering the "prestige class that's new to your character" test. It therefore has no bearing here. You need an example for what happens when a Fighter 7/Dwarven Defender 1 does a rebuild to switch a fighter level for Dwarven Defender 2 to distinguish between the two interpretations.

Your evidence so far is:

A sentence where you carefully avoided highlighting a phrase ("prestige class that's new to your character") that contradicts your interpretation.
An example which resolves the same way in both interpretations.
Rules in a different section about a different thing.

None of these are convincing lines of argument.

[Nifft]

The one example they give is about adding Dwarven Defender 1 to a Fighter build triggering the "prestige class that's new to your character" test. It therefore has no bearing here. You need an example for what happens when a Fighter 7/Dwarven Defender 1 does a rebuild to switch a fighter level for Dwarven Defender 2 to distinguish between the two interpretations. No, that's absurd.

I don't need to find an exact prohibition, when there's a prohibition example that encompasses a case identical to your abuse.

The intent is clear: you need to meet pre-reqs with your remaining class levels before you get the Prestige Class cookies.


If you want to disregard intent, and fall back on hardline RAW, you ought to be aware that a strict reading would prohibit prestige class levels from being added during a Rebuild at all:

https://i.imgur.com/utvn8hO.png

The words "prestige class" do not appear in this section.


The strictest reading is that you can't add prestige class levels at all, only class levels, which are always distinguished from prestige class levels.

RAI is that you can add prestige class levels, but you need to qualify using your "remaining class levels". The pattern established in surrounding sections (which you want to dismiss) supports this. The example I cited supports this. The flavor text supports this.

Strict RAW (without reasonable RAI) would destroy your position. Don't go there.

[Anthrowhale]

No, that's absurd.

I don't need to find an exact prohibition, when there's a prohibition example that encompasses a case identical to your abuse.

You appear to be simply ignoring "prestige class that's new to your character" since you have not yet acknowledged or applied its existence.


The words "prestige class" do not appear in this section.

Argument #4 seems to be that if you ignore the explicit discussion of prestige classes in the class rebuild section then you can't rebuild into a prestige class because a class is not a prestige class.

Generally, I think you should apply all the relevant rules when deciding what the rules mean and I don't know any evidence that a class cannot be a prestige class.

Again, you'll have to come up with something better to convince me.

[Nifft]

You appear to be simply ignoring "prestige class that's new to your character" since you have not yet acknowledged or applied its existence. Oh, you think you're adding a new prestige class?

Then the rules about needing to qualify would apply.

But I thought you said you weren't doing that, so you could ignore part of that exact section.

You appear to be selectively reading what you want to see, not what's actually written.


Argument #4 seems to be that if you ignore the explicit discussion of prestige classes in the class rebuild section then you can't rebuild into a prestige class because a class is not a prestige class. "Argument #4"? What are you even talking about now?

If you are trying to reference what you quoted, maybe you're asking for a clarification: in that case, the strictest reading of the Rebuild rules, which you need in order to ignore the stated intent, would also prohibit your abuse.

You can't win by RAI, nor can you win by RAW.


Generally, I think you should apply all the relevant rules when deciding what the rules mean and I don't know any evidence that a class cannot be a prestige class. Well, the only text that allows a PrC talks about new content.

The only example featuring a PrC shows a case when when a PrC is not permitted. There are no examples which show a PrC being permitted at all.

Can you perhaps dig up something showing why you should be allowed to circumvent prerequisites?


Again, you'll have to come up with something better to convince me. No, I really don't. The main burden of proof would be on ~you~, if you were trying to pull this in a real game.

You're just theory-crafting, so no DM will ever call you on it, but any sucker who takes your advice will be called on it. The person who will need to convince someone else is the sucker who thinks you're giving valid advice. The person who will suffer is the person who trusted your bad advice (and the DM who has to deal with unrealistic player expectations).

For your advice to be valid, you'd need to convince a real live DM that your attempted abuse is actually RAW and RAI.

That's probably why the PHB2 writers didn't feel the need to spell out exhaustive Rebuild mechanics: because every step of this must be discussed with a real live DM before you even start on the quest to justify changing your character's history.

The fact that you need to convince a DM that you're not doing anything unsavory is the major protection against... well, against unsavory BS like this.


Tricking new players into thinking that DM-less theory-crafting is practical advice is just plain dishonest.

[Avigor]

For maximum Darkness™, you can go Sorcerer 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / Dread Witch 5 -- throw on a Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium and you'll have a lot of spells known.

Now I want to build a Vashar Dread Necromancer 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / Dread Witch 5 with Fiendish Bloodline and Mother Cyst and more "for the evulz" instead of purely optimal build choices, my biggest debate now is whether he would be for an evil campaign or as a villain npc...

[Nifft]

Now I want to build a Vashar Dread Necromancer 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / Dread Witch 5 with Fiendish Bloodline and Mother Cyst and more "for the evulz" instead of purely optimal build choices, my biggest debate now is whether he would be for an evil campaign or as a villain npc...

Dread Necro has its own spell list, so I don't think it has access to the Cyst spells.

Also I personally love the Dread Necro capstone lich-progression too much to feel good about bailing early.


Spontaneous Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) might be a fun option for Cyst spells.

Alternately, you could do a gestalt Dread Necro 20 // Sorc 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / ____ 5 with Mother Cyst (usable by the Sorcerer side) for some serious evulz.

[Anthrowhale]

Oh, you think you're adding a new prestige class?
No.


"Argument #4"? What are you even talking about now?

You've made 4 arguments.

You highlighted part of a sentence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22480673&postcount=24) where you carefully avoided highlighting a phrase ("prestige class that's new to your character") that implies the highlighted part is irrelevant in the Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 1 example.
You point at an example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22480893&postcount=29) (rebuilding Dwarven Defender 1 from Fighter 7) which is relevant to your highlighted text and (again) irrelevant when the prestige class is not new.
You point at rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22480893&postcount=29) in the feat retraining section and seem to believe they should override the rules in the class rebuilding section about class rebuilding.
You point to (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22481187&postcount=31) a portion of the class rebuild section and then argue that since prestige classes are only discussed elsewhere in the class rebuild section you can't rebuild into a prestige class.

None of this is convincing.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22479538&postcount=17) is what a good argument looks like: it directly states the relevant rules allowing the rebuild. There is a test: Does the rebuild result in qualification for the prestige class? The answer is clearly yes, because a Savage Bard 1/Ur-Priest 5 has a base Fort Save of 3, a base Will save of 6, the relevant skills, and all feats. Hence, the prestige class is qualified.

To be very specific: there is no blanket prohibition on self-qualification in the rules for prestige classes which a character already has.

[Avigor]

Dread Necro has its own spell list, so I don't think it has access to the Cyst spells.

Also I personally love the Dread Necro capstone lich-progression too much to feel good about bailing early.


Spontaneous Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) might be a fun option for Cyst spells.

Alternately, you could do a gestalt Dread Necro 20 // Sorc 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / ____ 5 with Mother Cyst (usable by the Sorcerer side) for some serious evulz.

The Cyst spells come from a feat which doesn't specify any particular kind of caster at all, so Dread Necro works.

I must confess I am tempted by a Dread Necro 20 // ? 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / Dread Witch 5 gestalt but I can't seem to think of a proper "evul" base class for the other 5 (as my brain is rebelling against going generic like Sorcerer, taking multiple casting classes, or submitting to a master / bargaining with infernal powers as Cleric, Mountebank, and Death Master fluff requires).

I'm almost tempted to do a quasi-gestalt where I skip doing a 2nd base class and instead tack on Pale Master as a bonus on top of the other classes; several abilities would be redundant and it is a sub-par PrC so I doubt it'll be too OP.

[Nifft]

To be very specific: there is no blanket prohibition on self-qualification in the rules for prestige classes which a character already has. "The rules don't tell me that I can't, therefore I can."

The rules also don't say that I can't just declare myself level 500. There's no blanket prohibition on self-advancement in the rules -- the rules just state that when I have enough XP, then I also advance. They don't ~blanket prohibit~ me from advancing in the absence of XP. (This is clearly BS, and it's exactly the same BS that you're trying to push -- just in a more advanced form, with more powerful results.)

The rules don't need to explicitly list everything you can't do. They instead tell you what you can do.

In the case of Rebuilding, which is not permitted by default, they also list cases where the process is permitted: when you want to integrate new content, when you made a mistake building your character, or when you want to change your role in the party, or if you want to change your class levels to qualify for a new prestige class. That's what the rules discuss, and that's perhaps why they don't address your scenario explicitly: they probably didn't have anyone deliberately trying to abuse that rule at the time of writing.


In summary: your "argument" is really not convincing at all.

You need a concrete positive argument for why the Rebuild rules would support your abuse. You can't make one, so you're instead nit-picking.

You're giving people terrible advice, which will cause unnecessary conflict with their DMs, if anyone trust you enough to try this in a real game. If you were a Paladin, doing this sort of thing might force you into an Atonement quest.

Anyway, I think you're not going to be convinced, and your rhetorical tactic is repeating how you're not convinced, so I don't foresee much progress here. You don't seem able to put forward a positive argument, nor accept the arguments of others, so I think we're probably done here.

Feel free to prove me wrong by doing something new.



The Cyst spells come from a feat which doesn't specify any particular kind of caster at all, so Dread Necro works.

I must confess I am tempted by a Dread Necro 20 // ? 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / Dread Witch 5 gestalt but I can't seem to think of a proper "evul" base class for the other 5 (as my brain is rebelling against going generic like Sorcerer, taking multiple casting classes, or submitting to a master / bargaining with infernal powers as Cleric, Mountebank, and Death Master fluff requires).

I'm almost tempted to do a quasi-gestalt where I skip doing a 2nd base class and instead tack on Pale Master as a bonus on top of the other classes; several abilities would be redundant and it is a sub-par PrC so I doubt it'll be too OP.

Hmm.

I can see where you're coming from -- the Mother Cyst feat does say that you know and can cast the spells:


The mother cyst grants you access to a selection of cyst-related spells listed below (and described in Chapter 4 of this book). You cast these spells like any other spell you can cast (...)


On the other hand, the spells themselves are from specific lists:


https://i.imgur.com/nt3Z3BM.png


I guess it's an editorial oversight -- either the spells are supposed to be specific to the feat, and available to every list, or they're supposed to be limited to Cleric + Sorc + Wiz and the feat is written poorly.

Flavor-wise, they're a great fit for a Dread Necro, so if your DM allows them to work with any spell list then a single-class DN could be pretty great.


Gestalt, hmm... how about Dread Necro 20 // Bard 7 / Dirgesinger 3 / Sublime Chord 10? That gets you spontaneous access to the Cyst spells (since they're added to your Bard & Sublime Chord lists), plus you can use Requium to bolster your undead minions into truly horrid combat monsters.

[Anthrowhale]

"The rules don't tell me that I can't, therefore I can."
That's not the argument. The rules say:
You can also use this method to trade out (or add in) prestige class levels... which is about as explicit as it could possibly be, and it sets the default for the section. There are two caveats given:

One on permissions:
... though if you want to take levels in a prestige class that's new to your character is irrelevant for a Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 1 swapping Savage Bard for Ur-Priest since Ur-Priest is not new to the character.
And one on effect
If reallocating your character's class levels disqualifies him for a prestige class in which he already has one or more levels... is irrelevant because all qualifications for Ur-Priest are maintained under a swap Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 1 -> Savage Bard 3/Ur-Priest 3.

Neither caveat applies, so the default rule
You can also use this method to trade out (or add in) prestige class levels... is in effect and Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 1 -> Savage Bard 3/Ur-Priest 3 is RAW legal.

[Avigor]

On the other hand, the spells themselves are from specific lists:


https://i.imgur.com/nt3Z3BM.png


I guess it's an editorial oversight -- either the spells are supposed to be specific to the feat, and available to every list, or they're supposed to be limited to Cleric + Sorc + Wiz and the feat is written poorly.

Flavor-wise, they're a great fit for a Dread Necro, so if your DM allows them to work with any spell list then a single-class DN could be pretty great.

Wow, hadn't noticed that... Weird, yeah I suspect someone failed to communicate properly on that.


Gestalt, hmm... how about Dread Necro 20 // Bard 7 / Dirgesinger 3 / Sublime Chord 10? That gets you spontaneous access to the Cyst spells (since they're added to your Bard & Sublime Chord lists), plus you can use Requium to bolster your undead minions into truly horrid combat monsters.

I'd forgotten about the Dirgesinger; that could make for an interesting dedicated necromancer gestalt. On the other hand, that isn't exactly what I was thinking of for this particular build idea myself.

Oh, and you forgot that Dread Necro is already a spontaneous caster, so yeah that part is not impacted by this at all.