Knowledge Devotion at level 1?

[DarkSoul]

Cloistered cleric dip, knowledge devotion, blah, blah, we all know how it works.

The question, however, is how does a cloistered cleric 1, 1st-level character qualify for Knowledge Devotion, with it's prerequisite of 5 ranks in a knowledge skill?

"It's a bonus feat!" No, it's explicitly not:


In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. Doing so allows you to select up to three domain feats, but you cannot prepare domain spells or use the granted power of the sacrificed domain. In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat. For example, the above cleric of Pelor could choose to give up the granted power and spells of the Good domain for the Good Devotion feat.Emphasis mine. Even DictumMortuum's quickstart cleric archer handbook calls it a bonus feat, but the RAW makes no such assertion. Is there something I've missed somewhere that makes it a bonus feat, and thus gained without meeting the prerequisites, or has everyone (myself included) been playing it wrong?

"Wait until level 2 for the dip." Alright, but then it's not a level 1 character, which is where I see most builds that dip for CC take the level, because of the skill point boost. If you wait until CC level 2 to keep the skill point boost, then it goes against one side of the discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?529536-Domain-Devotion-Question&p=22342811#post22342811) (link is from August) about when, exactly, you can trade in your domain for the feat.

"The feat table doesn't list the knowledge skill requirement." The description does, and text trumps table (technically)

So what does everyone think? Make it a bonus feat? Stick to strict RAW? The reason I'm asking is because Hero Lab doesn't currently handle it quite right and I'm working on getting it fixed.

[Zordran]

It would appear that you cannot trade at level 1, but could make the exchange as soon as you do qualify.

"You can choose to give up access to a domain" does not imply that that you must do it when you first gain access to the domain.

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, I'd say this is one of those exception to the rules things on the qualification for the Devotion feats. There obviously meant to be a level 1 thing when the cleric swaps them for a domain.

[Darrin]

I suspect the 5 ranks prereq is an error that the editors missed. And yes, I realize that text trumps table, but the table on page 56 does not list any prereqs for Knowledge Devotion. My guess is an earlier draft of the feats had prereqs on some of the Devotion feats, but then were made in how clerics and non-clerics could acquire them, and the prereqs were supposed to be removed. If that was the case, then they missed the prereq on Knowledge Devotion when it went through editing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. Doing so allows you to select up to three domain feats, but you cannot prepare domain spells or use the granted power of the sacrificed domain. In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat. For example, the above cleric of Pelor could choose to give up the granted power and spells of the Good domain for the Good Devotion feat.
Emphasis mine. The first sentence is the rule; the one you highlighted is part of the elaboration.

[SirNibbles]

Emphasis mine. The first sentence is the rule; the one you highlighted is part of the elaboration.

That's true, but it also doesn't form an exception to the general rule, "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat." - Player's Handbook, page 87

[Deophaun]

That's true, but it also doesn't form an exception to the general rule, "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat." - Player's Handbook, page 87
So, at best, you might be able to select Knowledge Devotion at level 1, but you wouldn't be able to take advantage of it until level 2.

[Nifft]

That's true, but it also doesn't form an exception to the general rule, "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat." - Player's Handbook, page 87

Other Domains do grant feats that have prereqs without requiring the prereqs.

[Doctor Awkward]

Pretty much every class that grant bonus feats that you select from a list (Ex.: Fighter, Wizard, Warblade, Human Paragon, Hexblade, Ronin) all state explicitly that you must still meet prerequisites for those feats before you can select them.

The rest of the feat-granting classes that are far more specific (Monk, Ranger, Swashbuckler, CW Samurai, Drunken Master) all grant you the benefits of the feat while explicitly stating you do not have to meet the prerequisites.


RAW might be unclear, but the intent in Complete Champion seems pretty obvious.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Darrin
I suspect the 5 ranks prereq is an error that the editors missed. And yes, I realize that text trumps table, but the table on page 56 does not list any prereqs for Knowledge Devotion. My guess is an earlier draft of the feats had prereqs on some of the Devotion feats, but then were made in how clerics and non-clerics could acquire them, and the prereqs were supposed to be removed. If that was the case, then they missed the prereq on Knowledge Devotion when it went through editing.

This is assuming a whole series of editorial oversights, all of which line up in support of one interpretation. That seems pretty unlikely.


Originally Posted by Tonymitsu
RAW might be unclear, but the intent in Complete Champion seems pretty obvious.

Meaning…?

[Nifft]

This is assuming a whole series of editorial oversights, all of which line up in support of one interpretation. That seems pretty unlikely. Exactly one mistake would be required.

I don't really have a stake in this, I just wanted to point that out.



Meaning…? Looked like "CC says you can trade a Domain for a feat" means that person thinks the wording of CC intended to grant the ability to trade a Domain for a feat, regardless of prerequisites, since by default Bonus Feats can ignore prerequisites.



Feats

The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B. Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Nifft
Exactly one mistake would be required.

It would take several pairs of eyes consistently missing this in the text to line up with Darrin’s theory, and I can say from experience that this isn’t likely. It seems much more plausible that the prerequisites were accidentally left out of the table than accidentally left in the main text. All the more so if the person doing layout was separate from the editors, as often happens.

I used to work as a journal editor, and our graphics person did the tables as part of the layout, while I worked on the main-body text. In that situation it’s easy to get wires crossed and details lost, even when you work just down the hall from each other. For all we know the final layout was done in India.

I’m not saying some sort of editorial mistake didn’t occur, but it’s more likely to have been a formatting glitch in the table than a previous draft that wasn’t fully updated.

[Nifft]

It would take several pairs of eyes consistently missing this in the text to line up with Darrin’s theory, and I can say from experience that this isn’t likely. It seems much more plausible that the prerequisites were accidentally left out of the table than accidentally left in the main text. All the more so if the person doing layout was separate from the editors, as often happens.

I used to work as a journal editor, and our graphics person did the tables as part of the layout, while I worked on the main-body text. In that situation it’s easy to get wires crossed and details lost, even when you work just down the hall from each other. For all we know the final layout was done in India.

I’m not saying some sort of editorial mistake didn’t occur, but it’s more likely to have been a formatting glitch in the table than a previous draft that wasn’t fully updated.

We know that D&D's content goes through several drafts, and previous draft content is often left in -- see the 5e errata for some prime examples of this, where "per day" is left in the text for a few isolated abilities, and the errata corrects that to use the same language as the rest of the edition.

Or see the entire Shadowcaster class, whose author says he didn't recognize the mechanics as being anything like what he'd submitted.

So to me, the idea that text from a previous revision remained in one place after being removed from many other places -- it seems plausible.

But it doesn't really matter. We know that text trumps table, even if the table is more consistent or logical.

And yet even that doesn't matter, because we also know that bonus feats don't need to meet prereqs (unless they say you do).

So yeah.

*shrug*

Personally I dislike the idea of a Cloistered Cleric selling the Knowledge Domain, since to me that's such a core part of the class variant, and since it's given in a very specific way which differs from ordinary Domain acquisition -- thus I probably wouldn't allow that domain to be traded away at my table. (Nobody's asked for it... yet.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Nifft
We know that D&D's content goes through several drafts, and previous draft content is often left in -- see the 5e errata for some prime examples of this, where "per day" is left in the text for a few isolated abilities, and the errata corrects that to use the same language as the rest of the edition.

Well, fair enough—although it’s easier to miss a couple words than a full line, especially if those couple words are repeated ad nauseum throughout the text.


Originally Posted by Nifft
Or see the entire Shadowcaster class, whose author says he didn't recognize the mechanics as being anything like what he'd submitted.

This, on the other hand, sounds like editors doing a lot of rewriting on the fly.


Originally Posted by Nifft
Personally I dislike the idea of a Cloistered Cleric selling the Knowledge Domain, since to me that's such a core part of the class variant….

Agreed completely. It’s the heart and soul of the cloistered cleric, and for me it’s the main appeal of the variant—taken for its own sake, not as something to trade away.

[Doctor Awkward]

Feats

The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B. Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.

This rule pertains specifically to bonus feats granted on account of a creatures race. It is not a rule pertaining to feats in general.


Meaning…?

Meaning that yeah, the intent is that you swap your domain for the feat without having to meet prerequisites. That they failed to include this line could easily be an editorial oversight since Knowledge Devotion is the only Domain feat in the entire book that even has a prerequisite.

[Nifft]

This rule pertains specifically to bonus feats granted on account of a creatures race. It is not a rule pertaining to feats in general.

That's correct, it's an example of how Bonus feats work -- the most general example, but not a general rule.

There is no general rule covering bonus feats, except that specific trumps general.

If the rule says "you get THIS feat", then you get the feat.

Just like the CC Domain Devotion rule does.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tonymitsu
…Knowledge Devotion is the only Domain feat in the entire book that even has a prerequisite.

True, but it’s also the only feat in the entire book that’s designed to work with a specific skill check.

Since the feat text has a detailed breakdown of how the feat interacts with Knowledge checks, it makes sense that it would have prerequisites involving skill checks. The feat has a unique mechanic, so I don’t see a problem with it having a unique prerequisite.

[Jopustopin]

I never even thought this was up for discussion. I've always waited to trade it out at 2nd level or taken it at 3rd level.

[DEMON]

I never even thought this was up for discussion. I've always waited to trade it out at 2nd level or taken it at 3rd level.

While I'm of the mind that the Doman -> Devotion feat conversion occurs at level 1 and should work regardless of pre-reqs, because it's a specific case...

I would like to point out that being allowed/required to trade the domain for the feat it at level 2 would most likely be beneficial to a (Cloistered) Cleric, as he would benefit from the access to all knowledge skills at his first level.

[Inevitability]

Take Primary Contact and Favored to get an extra skill point?

[Jopustopin]

I would like to point out that being allowed/required to trade the domain for the feat it at level 2 would most likely be beneficial to a (Cloistered) Cleric, as he would benefit from the access to all knowledge skills at his first level.

Yes which is RAW regardless of the above discussion. The OP is talking about trading knowledge devotion at first level and whether it's prerequisites are waived.



You can select a domain feat at any level....

In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat.


When you read the whole section, that's what it's saying. Any character can pick a domain feat at any level. But most characters don't have open feat slots at 2nd level. A Cleric, can trade a domain for an EXTRA FEAT SLOT. Which, any character, if they had an extra feat slot, could use to pick a devotion feat. A cleric at 2nd level if they trade away knowledge domain they can RAW then get the devotion feat. I don't even understand any other reading of that section. It's RAW that you can use knowledge domain at 1st level to get some knowledge skills than at 2nd level trade it away. Regardless of whether you think that Knowledge Devotion has a prerequisite or not.

[Rebel7284]

The rules explcitly allow you to take Knowledge Devotion. There is an argument that you don't get any benefits from it until you meet the prerequisites, but that seems particularly nitpicky to me.

[Blue Jay]

It's RAW that you can use knowledge domain at 1st level to get some knowledge skills than at 2nd level trade it away. Regardless of whether you think that Knowledge Devotion has a prerequisite or not.

I would argue that the rules text here isn't specific enough to make this call. It would need to say something like, "You may make this trade at any time, and you do not lose any skill ranks you have already placed in domain-granted skills." Since it doesn't say that specifically, then I think you have to default to the general rules. In this case, this falls under the purview of the class-feature retraining rules from PHB II, and those rules forbid you from making a trade that would result in you having something you no longer qualify for.

The example they give in PHB II is a ranger who wants to switch from TWF to archery, but if he's taken a feat that has TWF as a prereq, he's not allowed to make the trade. I don't see how that rule wouldn't apply to the the domain/devotion trade for clerics.

[Jopustopin]

I would argue that the rules text here isn't specific enough to make this call. It would need to say something like, "You may make this trade at any time, and you do not lose any skill ranks you have already placed in domain-granted skills." Since it doesn't say that specifically, then I think you have to default to the general rules. In this case, this falls under the purview of the class-feature retraining rules from PHB II, and those rules forbid you from making a trade that would result in you having something you no longer qualify for.

The example they give in PHB II is a ranger who wants to switch from TWF to archery, but if he's taken a feat that has TWF as a prereq, he's not allowed to make the trade. I don't see how that rule wouldn't apply to the the domain/devotion trade for clerics.

Yes I understand the retraining rules. That's not even remotely a general rule to fall back on. It's an optional rule that I rarely see DM's even use. In the complete champion it specifically states when a character can pick a devotion feat: at level up. Then for clerics it specifically states that they can trade a domain for a bonus feat that can only be used on it's respective devotion feat. Ergo, using simple deductive reasoning and thus any ink to say anything more would be a waste of ink, a cleric can trade their domains for a bonus feat and they can only get a devotion feat when they gain a level. Therefore whenever a cleric levels up they have the option of trading their domain for a devotion feat. This has absolutely nothing to do with retraining as the rules are extremely specific here. You know when you can do it. You know that you can do it. Therefore you know when and that you can do it.

I urge you to read the whole section before responding. Yes it's advantageous and in fact required to wait to second level to get knowledge devotion if you have the knowledge domain.

[Blue Jay]

In the complete champion it specifically states when a character can pick a devotion feat: at level up.

Yes, it does.


Then for clerics it specifically states that they can trade a domain for a bonus feat that can only be used on it's respective devotion feat.

Yes, it does.


Ergo, using simple deductive reasoning and thus any ink to say anything more would be a waste of ink, a cleric can trade their domains for a bonus feat and they can only get a devotion feat when they gain a level.

I'm still with you, professor.


Therefore whenever a cleric levels up they have the option of trading their domain for a devotion feat. This has absolutely nothing to do with retraining as the rules are extremely specific here. You know when you can do it. You know that you can do it. Therefore you know when and that you can do it.

Okay, no disagreements here, either.

But, none of this is what I was talking about. What I wanted were specifics about how to deal with retroactive changes to your class skill list that might result from this trade, and there are no specifics on that here. There are no specifics on how "you cannot use the domain's granted power" applies to domains whose granted power is an ability to make permanent change to your character. If you ever lose a prereq for a feat or PrC, you can't benefit from it anymore. So, it seems like, if you're giving up a domain, you would also lose all the abilities you got from it, which, in this case, might include your skill ranks.

But, there are no specifics about this here, so I appealed elsewhere, and the only place that seems available for this kind of appeal is the retraining/rebuilding rules (which, by the way, have always been allowed in every game I've played in). And from that I gleaned a principle of "if a retroactive change creates a paradox, it's not allowed."

Although, now that I think about it, I suppose I could look to the Ex-Paladin and Ex-Cleric sections in PHB for guidelines, as well (skill ranks are not lost in those cases), but I still feel like domain-granted skills represent a gray area that isn't clearly addressed in RAW, because some of your class skills are now one of your class features (which are lost by ex-clerics and ex-paladins).

My best guess is, if this sort of trade is allowed, you could probably still retain the skill ranks you put in before the trade, but you would be subject to the cross-class skill maximum, so you couldn't add more ranks until the cross-class maximum catches up to you. This might impact when you could qualify for Knowledge Devotion (depending on a few things), which is why I also wanted to see something more specific about when you can make the trade.

But, all of this is pretty speculative, because there are no specifics in this section about what will or won't happen, or about how a DM should handle it.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Blue Jay
But, all of this is pretty speculative, because there are no specifics in this section about what will or won't happen, or about how a DM should handle it.

This is certainly very true, and you have to wonder how much thought they gave it.

Are there any errata that would inform any of this? Designer interviews, FAQ, anything at all?

[Deophaun]

Yes I understand the retraining rules. That's not even remotely a general rule to fall back on. It's an optional rule that I rarely see DM's even use.
It's no more optional than anything else you find in a splatbook. It's in a player resource (PHBII) and nothing about it is labeled "optional" save for retraining costs. If the PHBII is allowed, then retraining is allowed by default.

And I rarely see DMs not allow PHBII.

[Jopustopin]

But, all of this is pretty speculative, because there are no specifics in this section about what will or won't happen, or about how a DM should handle it.

You had it as a class skill and then you don't. This isn't without precedent. Just picking one example out of at least twenty - A half-orc druid takes the half-orc druid substitution level at 1st level. He has intimidate as a class skill. At level 2, intimidate is no longer a class skill. It costs two skill points to bring it up to 5 ranks.

Again, nothing requiring the retraining rules required. They are class skills, and then they are not anymore. Just like in substitution levels (which don't require any new rules to work). I struggle to understand your struggle.

[Kayden Prynn]

You had it as a class skill and then you don't. This isn't without precedent. Just picking one example out of at least twenty - A half-orc druid takes the half-orc druid substitution level at 1st level. He has intimidate as a class skill. At level 2, intimidate is no longer a class skill. It costs two skill points to bring it up to 5 ranks.

Again, nothing requiring the retraining rules required. They are class skills, and then they are not anymore. Just like in substitution levels (which don't require any new rules to work). I struggle to understand your struggle.

These are not the same situation. The half-orc druid taking the substitution level is more akin to multiclassing. His first level has intimidate as a class skill, his second level does not. For the CC, his skill list for all levels has been retroactively changed. His first level in the class does not get knowledge skills anymore than his second level does if he trades away his domain.

To demonstrate
1st level half-orc druid substitution level skill list:Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str)
2nd level half-orc druid (no sub level) skill list:Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str)
1st level cloistered cleric before trading domain for devotion: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int) Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)
2nd level cloistered cleric before trading domain for devotion: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int) Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)
1st level cloistered cleric after trading domain for devotion: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)
2nd level cloistered cleric after trading domain for devotion: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

The skill list at each level changes, rather than simply having a different skill list at level 2.

Sorry if that was overly complicated, it's a weird concept to explain.

[Jopustopin]

I don't see where it's retroactively changed in the book but I can tell that's everyone's hang-up.