“Cantrips are forever”

[ZorroGames]

Just a thought, when looking at the PHB spells lists I thought cleric Cantrips seem weak. Least number of cantrips of spell casters beside Ranger and Paladins which have none.

The number of concentration cantrips made me look at all the perceived caster classes.

Bards have 11 cantrips
Clerics 7
Druids 8 (never play them, frequently played by one of the core players at our AL tables)
Sorcerors 16
Warlocks 9 (see Druid, same situation)
Wizards 16

If I want to beef up my Clerical Cantrips what other book seems most useful? SCAG? Volo? EE spells PDF? I like options for “always available” spells, that is why Cleric (and domain spells) are one if my big three classes played (Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, with Wizard a distant 4th - so far not at all in 5e though I have a Mt. Dwf. Wizard ready to play.)

[Foxhound438]

As of now phb is what cantrips cleric has access to. The exception is the Arcana cleric from sword coast, which gets to pick 2 from the wizard list at L1. That said, xanthar's should come with a few.

[KorvinStarmast]

While EE spells are not cleric based, you can work with your DM to tailor a few of them into your cleric's domain. I got my DM to agree to one: thunderclap.
Thunderclap / Evocation cantrip / Casting Time: 1 action Range: Self (5-foot radius)
Components: S Duration: Instantaneous
You create a burst of thunderous sound, which can be heard 100 feet away. Each creature other than you within 5 feet of you must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 1d6 thunder damage. The spell’s damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

It was good for three things:
Signalling (when we were out of visual range)
Distracting (get the enemy to pay attention to all of that noise, while the party did something else ...)
Mook busting. Nice complement to Spirit Guardians when a crowd of Undead were about.

[ZorroGames]

As of now phb is what cantrips cleric has access to. The exception is the Arcana cleric from sword coast, which gets to pick 2 from the wizard list at L1. That said, xanthar's should come with a few.

That could be fun! :smallsmile: :smallcool: :smallwink:

[ZorroGames]

While EE spells are not cleric based, you can work with your DM to tailor a few of them into your cleric's domain. I got my DM to agree to one: thunderclap.
Thunderclap / Evocation cantrip / Casting Time: 1 action Range: Self (5-foot radius)
Components: S Duration: Instantaneous
You create a burst of thunderous sound, which can be heard 100 feet away. Each creature other than you within 5 feet of you must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 1d6 thunder damage. The spell’s damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

It was good for three things:
Signalling (when we were out of visual range)
Distracting (get the enemy to pay attention to all of that noise, while the party did something else ...)
Mook busting. Nice complement to Spirit Guardians when a crowd of Undead were about.

I like the idea but :smallyuk: all my games are AL and “Necril” was vetoed so unlikely.

[samcifer]

I thought it was Batman Forever...

[Twizzly513]

There is an Unearthed Arcana expansion just for starter spells, including cleric cantrips, here (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Starter-Spells.pdf).

[Aett_Thorn]

There is an Unearthed Arcana expansion just for starter spells, including cleric cantrips, here (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Starter-Spells.pdf).

If his games are solely Adventurer's League, they likely won't allow the UA spells, unfortunately.

[scalyfreak]

I thought it was Batman Forever...

Nah, it's diamonds that are forever.

[AttilatheYeon]

Clerics don't have the most cantrips, but they are some of the best. Guidance/Resistance are some of the most used/abused cantrips in the game. The only weakness is a lack of damaging cantrips, which Cleric more than makes up for with a handful of persistant damaging spells. In the balance, i'd say Clerics have the best cantrips in the game. As a primary Wizard/Bard player, i find myself invying Clerics cantrips more often than not.

[ZorroGames]

There is an Unearthed Arcana expansion just for starter spells, including cleric cantrips, here (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Starter-Spells.pdf).

Imlike some of these a lot! Wonder if any will become AL legal in the next book.

[ZorroGames]

Clerics don't have the most cantrips, but they are some of the best. Guidance/Resistance are some of the most used/abused cantrips in the game. The only weakness is a lack of damaging cantrips, which Cleric more than makes up for with a handful of persistant damaging spells. In the balance, i'd say Clerics have the best cantrips in the game. As a primary Wizard/Bard player, i find myself invying Clerics cantrips more often than not.

I guess the grass is always greener...

[Asmotherion]

As someone who:

-Swiched to 5e because "at-will cantrips"
-Decided that the Warlock was more to my playstyle back in 3.5 because at-will powers
-Only occasionally played Sorcerers, and never without Reserve feats for at-will "magic-like attacks"

I can understand you completelly. A caster is, after all, meant to cast spells, not kill things with crossbows when he's out of spell slots (the way I see it, at least) something that happens way too often for my standards at lower levels, and was too anoying back in 3.5 If I wanted to play an Archer, I would have been playing a Fighter or Ranger XD

Now, 5e has the perfect solution, by not only giving all cantrips at-will, but also scaling some of them (the damaging ones) with your approximate level. The Cleric's vanilla damaging cantrip, "Sacred Flame" might deal d8 damage, but half the domains buff this damage further by your wisdom mod. It also does not allow cover to the target, and deals Radiant Damage, a type of damage that is very rarelly resisted/imuned. Finally, wile most of the time you will have other spells to Concentrate on, if you need a Cantrip Option, there's always Resistance, which can be occasionally very useful when you know someone is going to have to deal with a Save-or-Suck effect.

[AttilatheYeon]

I guess the grass is always greener...

My point is, it's not always the amount of cantrips. Sometimes the quality is more important. Also cantrips are just one part of being a spellcaster.

[ChainsawFlwrcld]

Imlike some of these a lot! Wonder if any will become AL legal in the next book.

Toll of the Dead is a great cantrip that Clerics can cast. I'm told it's in the new book as a Warlock spell but haven't heard if it's also still a Cleric spell.

[Deleted]

Just a thought, when looking at the PHB spells lists I thought cleric Cantrips seem weak. Least number of cantrips of spell casters beside Ranger and Paladins which have none.

The number of concentration cantrips made me look at all the perceived caster classes.

Bards have 11 cantrips
Clerics 7
Druids 8 (never play them, frequently played by one of the core players at our AL tables)
Sorcerors 16
Warlocks 9 (see Druid, same situation)
Wizards 16

If I want to beef up my Clerical Cantrips what other book seems most useful? SCAG? Volo? EE spells PDF? I like options for “always available” spells, that is why Cleric (and domain spells) are one if my big three classes played (Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, with Wizard a distant 4th - so far not at all in 5e though I have a Mt. Dwf. Wizard ready to play.)

Honestly, you could open up all cantrips to all casters and it isn't going to really break anything (mostly because there are already options to gain them).

Really, with cantrips being the bare bones of casting, it would make a bit of sense if they weren't on specific class lists and was a list all to their own.

[SharkForce]

magic initiate (druid) can give you a few more wisdom-based damaging cantrips if you feel like you really need them. spell sniper can also give you a damage cantrip if you so desire, though it will need to be one that has an attack roll.

[ZorroGames]

magic initiate (druid) can give you a few more wisdom-based damaging cantrips if you feel like you really need them. spell sniper can also give you a damage cantrip if you so desire, though it will need to be one that has an attack roll.

Seriously considered both and may use one or both of them - not everyone needs an 18 at 4th level or a 20 at 8th.

[Saiga]

Toll The Dead is coming in Xanathar's, and it is a really good Cleric cantrip (I see no reason why the official version would be dropped from the Cleric list).

I don't think you should need both Magic Initiate and Spell Sniper, Magic Iniatiate gives two cantrips. If you want more than that, you're probably better off taking a level dip in something to get 2-4 extra cantrips.

[RickAllison]

Honestly, you could open up all cantrips to all casters and it isn't going to really break anything (mostly because there are already options to gain them).

Really, with cantrips being the bare bones of casting, it would make a bit of sense if they weren't on specific class lists and was a list all to their own.

If this were allowed, I would definitely look at an Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger running Int Shillelagh. Or an Arcane Trickster running Magic Stone. Well, maybe just EK, but currently Int is the only casting stat that can't get Shillelagh. It really does make me sad that I can't get an Int Magic Stone, because it means Int is the only non-Con ability score that can't be made the primary focus for attack for rogues.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

If this were allowed, I would definitely look at an Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger running Int Shillelagh. Or an Arcane Trickster running Magic Stone. Well, maybe just EK, but currently Int is the only casting stat that can't get Shillelagh. It really does make me sad that I can't get an Int Magic Stone, because it means Int is the only non-Con ability score that can't be made the primary focus for attack for rogues.

As far as I can see, Wis or Cha can't be effectively made into a Rogue attack stat either, since spell attacks can't be used with Sneak Attack, and Shillelagh can't be used with any finesse weapons.

I guess with UA you could do Cha with a Hexblade dip, but that's about the only option I see.

[RickAllison]

As far as I can see, Wis or Cha can't be effectively made into a Rogue attack stat either, since spell attacks can't be used with Sneak Attack, and Shillelagh can't be used with any finesse weapons.

I guess with UA you could do Cha with a Hexblade dip, but that's about the only option I see.

No, you use it with Magic Stone. When you use a sling, it is a Spell attack from a ranged weapon, which fits the bill for Sneak Attack. Shillelagh doesn't work that way. Unless the DM was nice enough to give you a quarterstaff with finesse...

[TheTeaMustFlow]

No, you use it with Magic Stone. When you use a sling, it is a Spell attack from a ranged weapon, which fits the bill for Sneak Attack. Shillelagh doesn't work that way. Unless the DM was nice enough to give you a quarterstaff with finesse...

Ah, that would work. Don't particularly see why you'd do it, mind, but it would work.

[Foxhound438]

Ah, that would work. Don't particularly see why you'd do it, mind, but it would work.

you can make your int your highest score and have slightly higher DC's to your hold persons or fears. Also works great if there's a paladin in your party with no ranged attack in an encounter where melee is very difficult for some reason. Give him the extra stones to throw, so he gets to do some damage on his turns.

*could. if wizards got it. still kind of applies to swashbucklers on charisma, or any multiclass that's taking warlock or druid levels for spells.

[Deleted]

No, you use it with Magic Stone. When you use a sling, it is a Spell attack from a ranged weapon, which fits the bill for Sneak Attack. Shillelagh doesn't work that way. Unless the DM was nice enough to give you a quarterstaff with finesse...

It really bugs me that Int, Wis, and Cha can be used to aim spells but not weapons... Even when those spells are just slinging weapons.

I understand from a gamist reason why these cantrips are Int/Wis/Cha but aiming a weapon is really no different.

A Rogue should be able to fluff their attack stat, with a dagger, as Int if they want to.

If we're saying no to Con being an attack stat then no Con but everything else should be on the table.

[RickAllison]

Ah, that would work. Don't particularly see why you'd do it, mind, but it would work.

Because it is fun to be able to say of a semi-martial "I fight with my mind!" Of course, it may be even better to get Magic Stone from Warlocks and say "Miss? I'm too cocky to miss!"

[samcifer]

How's come CON isn't any form of attack stat?

"I'm clearly sturdy enough to hurt people with this!"

[bloodshed343]

How's come CON isn't any form of attack stat?

"I'm clearly sturdy enough to hurt people with this!"

It would make sense for a living conduit of raw magical energy. "I can survive this fire much better than you can."

[Deleted]

How's come CON isn't any form of attack stat?

"I'm clearly sturdy enough to hurt people with this!"

Sturdiness doesnt knock people out.

Sturdiness keeps you from being knocked out.

Not saying I'm against Con being an attack stat but I unserstand why it isn't.

[8wGremlin]

It comes from 3.5/4 when WoTC didn't want CON being an attack skill and making it an uber powerful stat. (HP and attack)
It just happens that Dex is way more important than Con, and is the uber stat.

[Deleted]

It comes from 3.5/4 when WoTC didn't want CON being an attack skill and making it an uber powerful stat. (HP and attack)
It just happens that Dex is way more important than Con, and is the uber stat.

Definitely not 4e.

So many great Con classes, mechanically or just conceptually.

[8wGremlin]

Definitely not 4e.

So many great Con classes, mechanically or just conceptually.

Which classes used CON to attack, I can't remember any?

[Saiga]

I think I remember reading Warlocks were a Con caster, which sounds great thematically.

[Deleted]

Which classes used CON to attack, I can't remember any?

Warlock, Warden, and Battlemind were are my favorites.

Warlock and Warden was very very very popular choices, Battleminds tended to use a couple houserules to fix up.

[8wGremlin]

Warlock, Warden, and Battlemind were are my favorites.

Warlock and Warden was very very very popular choices, Battleminds tended to use a couple houserules to fix up.

Warden used STR to attack though,
Warlock was CHA or CON, but didn't have very many good CON encounter/daily powers (some but not many)

Battlemind was CON that's true.

It's been ages since I looked at 4e...

[SharkForce]

It comes from 3.5/4 when WoTC didn't want CON being an attack skill and making it an uber powerful stat. (HP and attack)
It just happens that Dex is way more important than Con, and is the uber stat.

yes, that must be why there are so many builds in 5e with 8 con and none that dump dex at all [/sarcasm]

i call BS. you can build an excellent character without dex. i could post fighter, paladin, cleric, and even wizard (if i'm allowed to multiclass) builds with 8 dex, and about all i'm likely to hear is "oh, you won't have great initiative". i could even do that (with a bit of multiclassing) with warlocks, and if druids weren't restricted from metal armour, i could do it with druids as well (heck, if it's a moon druid, i can still probably get away with it). i could probably even pull it off to some extent with barbarian. and easily half of the more common builds for those classes where you need dex, you don't need any more dex than you do con.

go ahead and try the same with 8 con and see what happens.

if dex is this amazingly uber stat that rules over all the other stats, then why can i build a character with dumped dex and still be optimized?

even with "only" HP and con saves attached to it, constitution is an attribute that nobody can do without.

[8wGremlin]

Never said that Con wasn’t important.
Never said you couldn’t dump Dex.

Did say that WotC didn’t like the idea of Con as attack stat in 3.5, they didn’t like that you could use it to attack and Hp.

It does look like they started to experiment with this concept more in 4e.

And if it makes you feel good I agree with you. You can make decent characters who dump Dex. And I agree with you in that I don’t see many dump stats.

[BoringInfoGuy]

Just a thought, when looking at the PHB spells lists I thought cleric Cantrips seem weak. Least number of cantrips of spell casters beside Ranger and Paladins which have none.

The number of concentration cantrips made me look at all the perceived caster classes.

Bards have 11 cantrips
Clerics 7
Druids 8 (never play them, frequently played by one of the core players at our AL tables)
Sorcerors 16
Warlocks 9 (see Druid, same situation)
Wizards 16

If I want to beef up my Clerical Cantrips what other book seems most useful? SCAG? Volo? EE spells PDF? I like options for “always available” spells, that is why Cleric (and domain spells) are one if my big three classes played (Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, with Wizard a distant 4th - so far not at all in 5e though I have a Mt. Dwf. Wizard ready to play.)

My group is a illusion wizard 5,wild magic sorcerer 4 / warlock 1, assasin rogue 5, and my Maskarran Life Cleric 5.

While cleric is short on cantrip choices, they get some great ones. Guidance is simply amazing. Light is useful if you have any character without darkvision. And the creative can get more out of it then just an always available light source. Spare the Dying is thematically perfect for a Healer. Thaumatergy is fun for its RP possibilities.

The only weak point in the Cleric cantrip lineup is that they only get one combat option. And Sacred Flame is not bad, unless the target has a good dex save. On the other hand, no cover penalties, and radiant damage is a useful damage type, especially against certain creatures that hate to stay down.

When comparing cantrips, I don't have any reason to feel cantrip envy. Out of combat, I got some of the best toys, and while I only have one combat option, it is a good one.

[ZorroGames]

My first white box D&D character was a cleric when you had your first spells at second level. You fought, you healed, you cast when you had a good buff/debuff spell. Still one of my favorite classes. Even created a homebrew Fighter/Cleric (of course it was a dwarf,) before TSR had the lightbulb go on.

The 5e Cleric is great - just looking to amp up class since it seems we always have at least two warlocks/Sorcerors/Wizards in any party. Other than a tortle I have seen few people playing clerics in local games.

On a Chultan Ranger in ToA ( or was before the sponsoring FLGS closed this week indefinitely without warning) kick right now. All the classes I have tried at Tier 1 (Fighter, Cleric, Ranger,) or Tier 2 (Mt. Dwf. Monk) have been fun.

Seriously prefer heavy armor, and martial weapons when I can get them, (especially former) but always a Dwarf * (Mountain usually but also Hill.)

* Standard and Variant Humans as occassional alternates.

[D.U.P.A.]

Genasi use Con for their racial spells.

[Foxhound438]

Genasi use Con for their racial spells.

I feel like a fire genasi in a low level one shot could just go barbarian for the hit die and throw cantrips the whole time. It'd not be very good, but it'd be fun.

[Dudu]

Toll The Dead is coming in Xanathar's, and it is a really good Cleric cantrip (I see no reason why the official version would be dropped from the Cleric list).

I don't think you should need both Magic Initiate and Spell Sniper, Magic Iniatiate gives two cantrips. If you want more than that, you're probably better off taking a level dip in something to get 2-4 extra cantrips.

You sure?

Man, that will be a big upgrade to my Death cleric.

[Saiga]

You sure?

Man, that will be a big upgrade to my Death cleric.

I am also surprised at Clerics getting such a good cantrip - I won't be surprised if the d12 was lowered to a d10, but it'd still be great.

And yeah, I really hope to play a Death Cleric with it as well. I prefer playing them as spellcasters rather than focusing on melee.