quicken spell + war magic + green flame blade?

[Nomolos]

Hello good folk, I am dead set on going eldritch Knight, I was wondering if I can quicken(pg102phb) green flame blade, making it a bonus action attack, then because i have war magic(pg75phb) i can make 1 weapon attack as a bonus action. Would I then get a regular action+plus my extra attack?

[Endless Sheep]

No, not unless I am misunderstanding what you mean. You only get one Bonus Action and one Action per round, regardless of what you use them on.

You cannot both get the Quickened Green Flame Blade and the Bonus Action Weapon hit attack in the same round because those would both a Bonus Action, of which you only have 1/round.

You have:
1 Action
1 Bonus Action
1 Reaction
1 Movement Action

There's some overlap and exceptions, but in general wants you tick all those off you're tapped in the action economy.

[Nomolos]

No, not unless I am misunderstanding what you mean. You only get one Bonus Action and one Action per round, regardless of what you use them on.

You cannot both get the Quickened Green Flame Blade and the Bonus Action Weapon hit attack in the same round because those would both a Bonus Action, of which you only have 1/round.

You have:
1 Action
1 Bonus Action
1 Reaction
1 Movement Action

There's some overlap and exceptions, but in general wants you tick all those off you're tapped in the action economy.

thanks, i really appreciate the help.

[JackPhoenix]

No, not unless I am misunderstanding what you mean. You only get one Bonus Action and one Action per round, regardless of what you use them on.

You cannot both get the Quickened Green Flame Blade and the Bonus Action Weapon hit attack in the same round because those would both a Bonus Action, of which you only have 1/round.

You have:
1 Action
1 Bonus Action
1 Reaction
1 Movement Action

There's some overlap and exceptions, but in general wants you tick all those off you're tapped in the action economy.

Except there's no movement action and there are ways to get more than one action in your turn (Action Surge, Haste)

[Puh Laden]

No, but you should be able to cast green flame blade as an action and then do the bonus action attack from war magic. Alternatively, quicken green flame blade as your bonus action and cast it as your action because it is a cantrip. You could potentially action surge as well.

[Endless Sheep]

Except there's no movement action and there are ways to get more than one action in your turn (Action Surge, Haste)

It is not explicitly called that RAW, but you have one. You can do all of the above, and still move, so clearly Movement is a distinct action from the other things. You can cannibalize your Action to Dash and get a second Move Action, so it belongs in any discussion of action economy, even if you cannot use for anything besides moving, standing up, mounting creatures, etc.

As far as gaining Actions, what you gain will be specified by the Spell/Ability in question.

[bid]

You can cannibalize your Action to Dash and get a second Move Action
No you don't.

Doubling your speed isn't that at all.

[Mikal]

No you don't.

Doubling your speed isn't that at all.

Exactly.
You get a movement based on your speed types (land, swim, climb, fly) that you can use on your initiative count. You can use any of it at any time on your count, including between actions or even parts of an action (such as between extra attacks in your attack action), but this is not an action in and of itself.

Dash allows you to use your initiative account action to increase this quota of movement. It is not an action in and of itself either.

[Endless Sheep]

Dash allows you to use your initiative account action to increase this quota of movement. It is not an action in and of itself either.

While it does not actually matter in the slightest to question of the thread (which has already been answered, sematic quibbles aside), Dash is explicitly an action, so this is just wrong. From the good ol' PHB:



When you take the Dash action


At the end of the day, if you don't want to call Movement a Movement Action, sure, whatever. You then have:
1 Action
1 Bonus Action
1 Reaction
1 Movement

There we go, that should resolve all the issues here.

[Asmotherion]

what you can actually do is Quicken Green Flame Blade and then cast it again using the Cast a spell action. It packs good damage if you're a Fire Dragon Sorcerer (At least 6 levels) with high enough Charisma.

Add 2 Pal Levels to the Build to have Divine Smite on top of Green-Flame Blade.

Et Voila! Your Gish Build is ready to use.

PS: Since you mention Quicken, I take it as a Given that you have/are going to multiclass into sorcerer. If you meant Action Surge, it's a diferent Mechanic, and works much diferently.

[Mikal]

While it does not actually matter in the slightest to question of the thread (which has already been answered, sematic quibbles aside), Dash is explicitly an action, so this is just wrong. From the good ol' PHB:


I never said Dash wasn't an action. I said movement isn't an action. Because it's not. So... yeah.


At the end of the day, if you don't want to call Movement a Movement Action, sure, whatever. You then have:
1 Action
1 Bonus Action
1 Reaction
1 Movement

There we go, that should resolve all the issues here.

Except that's incorrect. Because movement can be done while in the middle of an action. And it's not just 1 movement. You can literally move via flying, swimming, climbing, and land movement at once if you have speed remaining all while doing specific actions and reactions.

Movement is not part of the action economy, except for those actions which let you add speed to movement.

[Endless Sheep]

I never said Dash wasn't an action.



Dash allows you to use your initiative account action to increase this quota of movement. It is not an action in and of itself either.

Okay.



Except that's incorrect. Because movement can be done while in the middle of an action. And it's not just 1 movement. You can literally move via flying, swimming, climbing, and land movement at once if you have speed remaining all while doing specific actions and reactions.

Movement is not part of the action economy, except for those actions which let you add speed to movement.

Please reread what you quoted. I removed the term "action" from "1 Movement". Obviously you can break up your Movement-notAction, it's spelled out in the PHB. That's entirely irrelevent to the points above. You say the movement is not part of the Action Economy... except when it is...?

So, once again we return to what can you do on your turn, you can:
1 Action
1 Bonus Action
1 Reaction
1 Movement (split up however you like!)

I hope that it's now perfectly clarified for your understanding.

[bid]

So, once again we return to what can you do on your turn, you can:
1 Action
1 Bonus Action
1 Reaction
1 Movement (split up however you like!)

I hope that it's now perfectly clarified for your understanding.
Erm... not for me.

Reaction is usually not on your turn. :smallbiggrin:

[Endless Sheep]

Erm... not for me.

Reaction is usually not on your turn. :smallbiggrin:

It can be (ala Counterspelling a Counterspell), but fair enough. Since the question is the total actions you can get in, it's included for completeness sake, as there are some ways you can end up using your reaction on your turn, but round terminology may be better in this case.

[Malifice]

what you can actually do is Quicken Green Flame Blade and then cast it again using the Cast a spell action. It packs good damage if you're a Fire Dragon Sorcerer (At least 6 levels) with high enough Charisma.

Add 2 Pal Levels to the Build to have Divine Smite on top of Green-Flame Blade.

Et Voila! Your Gish Build is ready to use.

Burning through 2 SP every round. Plus smites.

Not very optimal in a campaign that features the recommended 6 or so encounters per long rest until very high levels.

If your DM doesnt police the adventuring day though, go nuts.

[Chugger]

Hello good folk, I am dead set on going eldritch Knight, I was wondering if I can quicken(pg102phb) green flame blade, making it a bonus action attack, then because i have war magic(pg75phb) i can make 1 weapon attack as a bonus action. Would I then get a regular action+plus my extra attack?

Hey Nomolos, I don't really understand what some of the above people are trying to tell you.

Quicken - which you mention - is a Sorcerer class ability, not an Eldritch Knight or Fighter ability.

I think what's happening is that people are looking at your "extra attack" question and are basically steering you right on that, but they may be accidentally misleading your or not fully addressing your issue.

Do you understand that Eldritch Knights don't normally get Quicken, that War Magic is a different thing?

With War Magic you can do GFB cantrip as your main action and then do one weapon attack with your bonus action.

If you multiclass into sorcerer and get Quicken yes, you could cast the cantrip gfb as a bonus action and then take a normal Attack action as your main action, and then do extra attack, but it probably isn't worth it (there is a cost to multi-classing, and fighter/sorc isn't normally considered a good combo - just look into it and make sure it really works before committing to it).

Are we answering your question?

[djreynolds]

Hello good folk, I am dead set on going eldritch Knight, I was wondering if I can quicken(pg102phb) green flame blade, making it a bonus action attack, then because i have war magic(pg75phb) i can make 1 weapon attack as a bonus action. Would I then get a regular action+plus my extra attack?

Don't worry about it, as it can be confusing

During play you take an action on your:
1 to attack
2 cast a spell
3 dodge
4 or use a skill
5 dash
6 hide
7 use an item
8 whatever (AFB)

Now some actions, like attacking or casting a spell may give you a bonus action. Or there are some spells that cost a bonus action to use like misty step

Now if you quicken a spell like a sorcerer does as a bonus action you can still use your action now to cast a 1 action cantrip,

You could also use misty step as a bonus action to get out of a grapple on your turn and cast poison spray.
And you can use misty step after you attack using the attack action, its why its such a valuable spell... a rogue can also disengage after an attack because of cunning action, and a monk can spend a KI point and a BA to disengage (why the mobile feat is so good)

Now with war magic you are use your action to cast a spell and it just so happens you get a free-be attack as a bonus action, say cast a cantrip and throw a dagger

Now are you asking if a sorcerer/fighter could quicken a spell such as hold person and still get to use the attack action?

I'm unsure

But that same sorcerer could cast hold person quickened as a bonus action, and the cast green flame blade since it is a cantrip

Now when you cast a reaction spell, it is usually on someone else's turn, such as shield or counterspell

[Mikal]

Okay.


I see the confusion now. My quote was meant to say movement is not an action in and of itself. The dash action is an action

[Asmotherion]

Burning through 2 SP every round. Plus smites.

Not very optimal in a campaign that features the recommended 6 or so encounters per long rest until very high levels.

If your DM doesnt police the adventuring day though, go nuts.

With about 6 Sorcerer Levels, it's good enough to fuel 3 Nova-Damage rounds with Divine Smite. Divine Smite in itself is designed to deliver Nova Damage. You can always use some spell slots to refill your Sorcery points (at the cost of more Spell Slots for actual Divine Smite though), so it's a nice bet between encounters one has to deal with... that said, it's one of the nice things about this build, having to calculate/estimate where to use your spell slots; in a way, you have to play smart, and not just force your way through encounters, which is something I like about Gish Builds.

On the other hand, it's not something you can pull every round of combat, that's sure. But BB/GFB are good and are worth to sacrifice your second attack on sometimes (not always though, it's true). Intelligent applications with it can pack more damage than 2 attacks, though it's harder to compete once the Fighter gets his 3rd attack, that's also true.

Overall, it's not something for everyone, but it can be very nice to play, and can cause a lot of Nova Damage, as BB/GFB Damage stacks with Divine Smite Damage. Then, you can specialise more for each; Vengence Paladin can work wonders with Booming Blade and the War Caster Feat for example. There are more tricks like that which can be very interesting to play.

[Citan]

Movement is not part of the action economy, except for those actions which let you add speed to movement.
Hi!
I'd just like to rebound on that, because it gives an impression which is misleading to me.

While movement is not an action by itself, it is certainly part of the action economy, and a big one at that!
Let's not forget that many things you can do are limited in range, and that the only way to get in range is to reduce distance between you and target any way you can.
While it's rarely a problem for archers or some casters using cantrips (Warlock I'm looking at you), it's a common one for casters, and a very dire one for melee people.
If you can't reach effective range with your plain speed, unless you can Dash as bonus action which is the lesser pain, you will need to spend your action to Dash and try to do something useful with a bonus action, or (more probably) fall back on another tactical option that you consider less effective but at least workable right now.
Same goes with how you cut your Attack action to move in between targets, depending on how you plan your move, you may get less or more attacks, be ready to risk one OA or rather have to use a bonus action on Disengage or the like, etc.

In that regard, speed (or rather, movement) and the improvements you can bring to it (either temporary or permanent) are part of the action economy. ;)

We could tell it's the binder that brings all the actions type together to make it work, like egg fluid is used to bind butter, flour and chocolate in one cohesive pack of matter that results in quite an efficient cake (for our taste buds at least). ^^

[Malifice]

With about 6 Sorcerer Levels, it's good enough to fuel 3 Nova-Damage rounds with Divine Smite.

3 whole rounds?

Presuming 6 encounters per long rest of around 5 rounds each (and 2 short rests), what are you doing for the other 27 combat rounds?

And thats Sorcerer 6, Paladin 2. 8th level.

Most Sorcaladin builds I see work really well for a single encounter of one big monster per long rest.

I suppose they have normal sorcerer spells to fall back on as well, but not sure Id build a character around it.

An 8th level vengance Paladin with GWM and (advantage to hit from divine channel) plus hunters mark is doing far more damage in a standard adventuring day, and still has a nova option up his sleeve. Also has +Cha to saves.

[Asmotherion]

3 whole rounds?

Presuming 6 encounters per long rest of around 5 rounds each (and 2 short rests), what are you doing for the other 27 combat rounds?

And thats Sorcerer 6, Paladin 2. 8th level.

Most Sorcaladin builds I see work really well for a single encounter of one big monster per long rest.

I suppose they have normal sorcerer spells to fall back on as well, but not sure Id build a character around it.

An 8th level vengance Paladin with GWM and (advantage to hit from divine channel) plus hunters mark is doing far more damage in a standard adventuring day, and still has a nova option up his sleeve. Also has +Cha to saves.


That's the idea more or less. Saving Sorcery Points and Spell Slots for when you really need them. For the rest of the day, do Average Damage with Extra Attack or Scag Cantrips.

You can still take Hunter's mark on this eventually, as well as go 6 Paladin Levels and get the aura, I haven't suggested any specific level progression (if I remember, at least on this thread), just a guidline.

I usually couple it with 3 Warlock Levels as well, in order to take Shillelagh to use Charisma for attack/damage, in order to reduce MADness, and also get some spell slots every short rest. That said, it's optional, so I don't include it as a basic guidline, just the way I play it.

When I actually played this build, I took the Sorcerer/Warlock levels first, which made a Perfect Eldritch Blaster and average Caster, and only eventually took Paladin Levels, seeing it only as a Bonus, not the core of the build (A Caster with some degree of Melee prowess thanks to SCAG Cantrips and Shillelagh using a Quarterstaff, that eventually learned to use his power through Devotion to Bahamut to further enhance his Melee Ability).

As I said, it's not for everyone... Nevertheless, I was satisfied both from the Mechanics, as well as the Actual RP oportunities it gave (A Sorcerer born with Dragonic Powers, who has made a pact with Fey, and Eventually learned to use his powers in sync with his Faith in Bahamut to purge the evil of Tiamat). Thus I suggest it.

[Mikal]

Hi!
I'd just like to rebound on that, because it gives an impression which is misleading to me.

While movement is not an action by itself, it is certainly part of the action economy, and a big one at that!
Let's not forget that many things you can do are limited in range, and that the only way to get in range is to reduce distance between you and target any way you can.
While it's rarely a problem for archers or some casters using cantrips (Warlock I'm looking at you), it's a common one for casters, and a very dire one for melee people.
If you can't reach effective range with your plain speed, unless you can Dash as bonus action which is the lesser pain, you will need to spend your action to Dash and try to do something useful with a bonus action, or (more probably) fall back on another tactical option that you consider less effective but at least workable right now.
Same goes with how you cut your Attack action to move in between targets, depending on how you plan your move, you may get less or more attacks, be ready to risk one OA or rather have to use a bonus action on Disengage or the like, etc.

In that regard, speed (or rather, movement) and the improvements you can bring to it (either temporary or permanent) are part of the action economy. ;)

We could tell it's the binder that brings all the actions type together to make it work, like egg fluid is used to bind butter, flour and chocolate in one cohesive pack of matter that results in quite an efficient cake (for our taste buds at least). ^^

Eh, I'll go with that. Just as long as we're clear that there isn't an actual move "action" that exists. /pedant :smallbiggrin:

[greenstone]

So, once again we return to what can you do on your turn, you can:
1 Action
1 Bonus Action
1 Reaction
1 Movement (split up however you like!)

I think a better way of thinking about it is that you have 30 moves (assuming a speed of 30) which you can use before, after, and in between all your other activities.

You can move, perform a Bonus Action, move some more, perform an Action, then move some more again. With some of the Actions you can even move in the middle of the Action (for example, Extra Attack).

How many moves you have is based on the highest of your Speeds.

I think it also needs to be stressed that you do not automatically have a Bonus Action or a Reaction — they are granted by features and situations. They are also limited: You can only take one Bonus Action on your turn and you cannot take one on anyone else's turn. You can only take one Reaction from the start of your turn to the start of your next turn, though it can be taken on anyone's turn (including yours, e.g. counterspell).