Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

[Aniikinis]

Recommending this: *cough* *cough* useful *cough* *cough* (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/)

[Westhart]

Recommending this: *cough* *cough* useful *cough* *cough* (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/)

Hmm, that has a few that I hadn't seen, but misses the LeShay :smalltongue:... Of course they are epic and technically 3.0 [Shrug]. Thanks!

[Aniikinis]

Hmm, that has a few that I hadn't seen, but misses the LeShay :smalltongue:... Of course they are epic and technically 3.0 [Shrug]. Thanks!

Yeah it doesn't catch LeShay and most epic creatures. Welcome! :smallbiggrin:

[Jormengand]

Well, hopefully I'll be able to chew the rather big bite I just took. :smallbiggrin:

Says you! :smalltongue:

[Westhart]

Says you! :smalltongue:

Well, hopefully we both will be able to :smalltongue:

[Ranged Ranger]

Recommending this: *cough* *cough* useful *cough* *cough* (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/)

That is an awesome resource, seems to miss the races of books and the environment books (frostburn, sandstorm, stormwrack...)

[Aniikinis]

That is an awesome resource, seems to miss the races of books and the environment books (frostburn, sandstorm, stormwrack...)

Yeah it misses quite a few books (only has: Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio, Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness, Monster Manual I (3.5) (without entries from SRD), Monster Manual II, Monster Manual III, Monster Manual IV, Monsters of Faerûn, Planar Handbook, System Reference Document (with most from MM)), but it's a very useful tool.

[rferries]

I think the link to the chat thread in the contest post is broken? Not that it was hard to find this anyways haha.

I've drafted a Mercane racial prestige class, they have wizard as their favoured class but start off with 7 racial HD AND +7 LA so they deserved help. Makes for a bizarre campaign for a PC playing it though :D

[Aniikinis]

It's broken because there was an additional character in the link before the http.

Also: "I deal only in the rarest and most precious commodities..." The immortal souls of people made of gold? :smallamused:

[Westhart]

[Goes to fix link]

[Aniikinis]

[eats chips and twiddles thumbs like a total **** ********** ****** *** ******* ************************* *** *** **** **** **** ******]

[rferries]

Also: "I deal only in the rarest and most precious commodities..." The immortal souls of people made of gold? :smallamused:

No, Pogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_caps_(game)). :D

[Baby Gary]

hmm... I need some ideas for a race to make a PrC out of. Can anybody thing of a cool Race or Monster?

[Ranged Ranger]

hmm... I need some ideas for a race to make a PrC out of. Can anybody thing of a cool Race or Monster?

That's going to vary by taste... That said,

If you don't mind 3rd party, I personally like Houri, Kestrel, Spring Child, and Trixie from Bastards and Bloodlines (Green Ronin Press).
Killoren from Races of the Wild are cool, but NothingAbnormal may be working on adding them to their Faerie Courts...
Exile Modrons DR354 are both cool...
Diabolus, Tibbits, and Dvati are cool (Dragon Compendium)...
Dusklings and Rilkan from Magic of Incarnum are interesting.
If you ask permission of the creator, I think using a homebrew race is allowed... (Anyone wanting to use one of my races for this competition has my permission.)

[Aniikinis]

No, Pogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_caps_(game)). :D

You cheeky [male dog, said in a joking manner], the most valuable items of all . Especially if they've been used more than five times with your little cousins or in mint condition (still looking for my glow in the dark radical bigfoot btw). :smallbiggrin:


hmm... I need some ideas for a race to make a PrC out of. Can anybody thing of a cool Race or Monster?

I can think of quite a few, what kind did you have in mind?

Also if anyone wants to use my homebrew races, go ahead, you can use them in anything you want. Actually I should probably put something like that on my HBSigThread Post too.

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm doing a Xeph based prestige class. Cuz they have like zilch for support

[MrNobody]

Just posted a placeholder for my entry, the PRIMUS, a paragon class meant to bring to perfection the race of those who take level in it.
This is an hard one, not long, but hard. I hope it'll come out well.

[neriractor]

made a placeholder for The Quintessential [race], a paragon class for anyone to take and just become more elfy, dwarfy or whatever they want to become (as long as they are a PC race and I have time for it, priority to PHB races).

[Baby Gary]

made a placeholder for The Quintessential [race], a paragon class for anyone to take and just become more elfy, dwarfy or whatever they want to become (as long as they are a PC race and I have time for it, priority to PHB races).

can someone be a quintessential of whatever race they are? like can a human be a quintessential human?

[neriractor]

can someone be a quintessential of whatever race they are? like can a human be a quintessential human?

yes, one of the examples of how to meet the special requirement is being a member of the race, and I plan to make the two not boon class features give something different for a member of the race

[Ranged Ranger]

Ok, almost finished the creating my class... Can't decided if I like the name Incandescent Shadow or Radiant Shadow better. Here is the flavor text:

A secretive organization, dedicated to protecting the best interests of the goodly kingdoms through covert means – radiant shadows utilize political, social, and/or economic pressures; espionage; blackmail; assassinations; and precision military strikes (often using mercenaries for that last technique) to ensure the greater good. Of course, their definition of greater good may or may not align with anyone else’s, and their division into independent cabals of 15 to 150 operatives (plus the children of operatives, who are often trained from a young age to become operatives) means that they may often be working at cross purposes with other cabals within the greater “organization”.

A radiant shadow’s abilities are derived from a series of rituals that infuse magical energy into their body to gain special traits. These rituals involve having magical glyphs in the Illumian language drawn on their skin and then other radiant shadows casting spells with the shadow and light descriptors on them. They alternate between major and minor rituals each level. There are two categories of rituals: moon/lunar rituals that increase their control over their appearance and lantern rituals that forge a connection between their body and magical writing.
Consistently taking Moon/Lunar options gives you all the traits of a changeling by your 5th lvl in the class; consistently taking Lantern options will give all Illumian traits by the same level... (and mixing and matching will create some sort of hybrid).

[Jormengand]

Ok, almost finished the creating my class... Can't decided if I like the name Incandescent Shadow or Radiant Shadow better.

You could always use the word Chiaroscuro (meaning "The interplay between light and shadow") somewhere in the name of your class's name. Out of the two listed, radiant shadow is probably better; incandescent usually means liable to burst into flame.



Incidentally, can anyone think of any famous(ish) poems about creation or animals (in general, rather than one specific type of animal) which aren't either exceptionally long or so sycophantically religous that they would never get past the forum rules? Because I'm having far more problem finding a poem for the maker than I did for the leveller, terror or apothecary.

[Ranged Ranger]

You could always use the word Chiaroscuro (meaning "The interplay between light and shadow") somewhere in the name of your class's name. Out of the two listed, radiant shadow is probably better; incandescent usually means liable to burst into flame.



Incidentally, can anyone think of any famous(ish) poems about creation or animals (in general, rather than one specific type of animal) which aren't either exceptionally long or so sycophantically religous that they would never get past the forum rules? Because I'm having far more problem finding a poem for the maker than I did for the leveller, terror or apothecary.
Thanks for the suggestion, going with the plural form... From the updated flavor text:
The Chiaroscuri (sometimes called radiant shadows)’s abilities are derived...
EDIT: I've now posted the class... Still need to add the new Sigil(s), Word(s), and feats... I've Ruul, its Improved Sigil and its Words on paper, just need to flesh them out and upload them. I also have the Sigil and Improved Sigils for Laen and Voosh, but not sure if I can come up with that many Sigil Words.


Sorry, I can't think of any poems that meet your criteria...

[Westhart]

Well, finished up four paragons and most of a thief style class for the pixie.... Haven't posted them yet, but am slowly working on it :smallbiggrin:

Also, the submissions so far look great!

[Aniikinis]

Welp, I'm not sure if I wanna touch up my class at all. Does anyone have any pointers or things I might wanna take another look at?

[Ranged Ranger]

Welp, I'm not sure if I wanna touch up my class at all. Does anyone have any pointers or things I might wanna take another look at?
My only comment is are you sure you mean to include all rodents in the Rodent Empathy and Lord of the Rats features? Squirrels and rats are pretty much mortal enemies when their habitats overlap... Also having a hard time picturing a rat having that lvl of influence on beavers or capybara... Personally I'd be tempted to exclude any members of families Castoridae, Caviidae, or Sciuridae that exist in game...

On the other hand, I can understand liking the simplicity of not making suggestions...

[rferries]

Welp, I'm not sure if I wanna touch up my class at all. Does anyone have any pointers or things I might wanna take another look at?

Really just quibbles (overall I quite like your class, smooth and logical progression and I intend to allot some votes to it), but here goes:

1) Dire animals have all good saves and only 3/4's BAB, not sure if you want to edit your class to reflect that (see my own questions below).

2) It might be helpful to indicate whether the class abilities are Ex/Su/SP, probably won't be very important but might help if they ever interact with an antimagic field etc.

3) Virulent Disease - although it's a technically a debuff by removing flexibility I'd just remove the "may" part; ifyou're using a disease attack I can't envision a scenario where you wouldn't want the max DC.

4) Prehensile Tail - specify whether they can use magicm items (wands, potions etc.) if not actual weapons.

5) Strengthened Claws - 3.5 is really bad for standardising natural attack damage, so this is optional but I'd use Pathfinder rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Table_Natural_Attacks_by_Size) (1d3 for claws while Small, increasing to 1d4 with the size increase; plus you cold give Improved Natual Attack (claws) and/or (bite) as a bonus feat).

6) Rodent Empathy - I think Ranged Ranger is being funny :D

7) False Look - alter self is a transmutation and therefore provides tangible benefits (swim speed etc), if you describe the effect as an illusion that would imply you don't get those benefits.

8) Plague Lord - unless otherwise stated an SLA has a save of 10 + spell level + Cha modifier, I assumethat's the case here?

9) Lord of the Rats - how often does a rodent have to save against this ability - every round (as a gaze attack), multiple times per round (if it triggers with each attack)? Are they immune for 24 hours if they make their save?

Now a couple questions for the crowd about my class:

1) Should the class have outsider traits (full BAB, all good saves, 8 skill points/level), like Mercane racial HD?

2) Should the Level Readjustment be rewritten as shown below? This would make it possible for a Mercane PC to adventure (admittedly just with an outsider RHD chassis to start, but improving much faster than the original Level Readjustment ability allowed).

Level Readjustment (Ex)
At 1st level, a Mercane with levels in Interplanar Merchant ignores his racial level adjustment. He loses this ability whenever he takes a level in a class other than Interplanar Merchant, but regains it every time he takes another level of Interplanar Merchant. At 10th level, an Interplanar Merchant permanently ignores his racial level adjustment.

[Aniikinis]

My only comment is are you sure you mean to include all rodents in the Rodent Empathy and Lord of the Rats features? Squirrels and rats are pretty much mortal enemies when their habitats overlap... Also having a hard time picturing a rat having that lvl of influence on beavers or capybara... Personally I'd be tempted to exclude any members of families Castoridae, Caviidae, or Sciuridae that exist in game...

On the other hand, I can understand liking the simplicity of not making suggestions...

I'm gonna keep the simplicity, if a group wants to be realistic then they can modify it appropriately.


Really just quibbles (overall I quite like your class, smooth and logical progression and I intend to allot some votes to it), but here goes:

1) Dire animals have all good saves and only 3/4's BAB, not sure if you want to edit your class to reflect that (see my own questions below).

Hmm, I'm probably gonna increase it to that honestly, but I'm probably gonna keep the Full BAB.


2) It might be helpful to indicate whether the class abilities are Ex/Su/SP, probably won't be very important but might help if they ever interact with an antimagic field etc.

Will do, and most will end up being Ex.


3) Virulent Disease - although it's a technically a debuff by removing flexibility I'd just remove the "may" part; ifyou're using a disease attack I can't envision a scenario where you wouldn't want the max DC.

The sad part is that I can actually think of a few different scenarios I'd use it in. For one example, if you wanted to use contagion on yourself (to grab slimy doom, blinding sickness, shakes, or mindfire instead of filth fever for your attacks with Plague Lord) but not have to deal with the increased save.


4) Prehensile Tail - specify whether they can use magicm items (wands, potions etc.) if not actual weapons.

Will do.


5) Strengthened Claws - 3.5 is really bad for standardising natural attack damage, so this is optional but I'd use Pathfinder rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Table_Natural_Attacks_by_Size) (1d3 for claws while Small, increasing to 1d4 with the size increase; plus you cold give Improved Natual Attack (claws) and/or (bite) as a bonus feat).

Yeah, I've definitely noticed that when designing encounters/races/creatures. I'll probably stick with my current numbers but I will add in the INA feats to later levels of the class.


6) Rodent Empathy - I think Ranged Ranger is being funny :D

I can see where he's coming from, and I actually thought about it when designing the ability, but decided not to implement it to help ease usability.


7) False Look - alter self is a transmutation and therefore provides tangible benefits (swim speed etc), if you describe the effect as an illusion that would imply you don't get those benefits.

I was thinking Disguise Self when I wrote that, will modify it.


8) Plague Lord - unless otherwise stated an SLA has a save of 10 + spell level + Cha modifier, I assumethat's the case here?

Keep in mind how contagion works, the Save DC is based off of the DC of the disease inflicted when using it. The Save DC is Disease DC+ Virulent Disease if used.


9) Lord of the Rats - how often does a rodent have to save against this ability - every round (as a gaze attack), multiple times per round (if it triggers with each attack)? Are they immune for 24 hours if they make their save?

It should trigger with each attack, I'll note that. And they aren't immune for 24 hours, but I wonder if it would make it more balanced if I was.




Now a couple questions for the crowd about my class:

1) Should the class have outsider traits (full BAB, all good saves, 8 skill points/level), like Mercane racial HD?

Hmm, normally I'd say yes but probably not due to the accelerated spellcasting. Maybe 3/4th, 2 good, and 6 points? Scratch that, give them outsider traits.


2) Should the Level Readjustment be rewritten as shown below? This would make it possible for a Mercane PC to adventure (admittedly just with an outsider RHD chassis to start, but improving much faster than the original Level Readjustment ability allowed).

Level Readjustment (Ex)
At 1st level, a Mercane with levels in Interplanar Merchant ignores his racial level adjustment. He loses this ability whenever he takes a level in a class other than Interplanar Merchant, but regains it every time he takes another level of Interplanar Merchant. At 10th level, an Interplanar Merchant permanently ignores his racial level adjustment.

I'm going to say yes mostly due to the fact that LA sucks hard, but this also adds an additional problem: Multiclass gets even more penalized than it already is.

[Jormengand]

NA, I don't mean to, like, alarm you or anything, but... uh, I have like a hundred and sixty two more elite creatures to make and only a couple of people (I honestly can't tell how many) have actually finished. Can we get a deadline extension, please?

[MrNobody]

Unfortunately, december was an hell of a month, with family stuff and everything... i don't think i'll be able to finish my Primus. I hope i can give more attention to the next one.

[neriractor]

I would also like an extension to the deadline.

[Westhart]

NA, I don't mean to, like, alarm you or anything, but... uh, I have like a hundred and sixty two more elite creatures to make and only a couple of people (I honestly can't tell how many) have actually finished. Can we get a deadline extension, please?
Whoa...

Unfortunately, december was an hell of a month, with family stuff and everything... i don't think i'll be able to finish my Primus. I hope i can give more attention to the next one.


I would also like an extension to the deadline.

...But yes, let's extend the deadline, how long would everyone prefer though?

(I must admit that I could use it as well :smalltongue:)

[Baby Gary]

I think I am going to have to drop out of this competition, I just don't have the inspiration to continue on the class I was making and I don't want to spend forever coming up with another one. I still will probably judge though.

[Westhart]

I think I am going to have to drop out of this competition, I just don't have the inspiration to continue on the class I was making and I don't want to spend forever coming up with another one. I still will probably judge though.

Sad to hear it, feel free to still comment on others and whatnot. Good luck in any future contests you enter!

[Jormengand]

A couple weeks would probably do. That would be, what, 11 creatures a day, ish? Probably doable. Or even one week if I feel like pushing myself.

[Westhart]

A couple weeks would probably do. That would be, what, 11 creatures a day, ish? Probably doable. Or even one week if I feel like pushing myself.

How about 3 eh? :smalltongue:
Gives me some time with school getting back in soon and all, and shold be able to finish everything.

[Jormengand]

How about 3 eh? :smalltongue:
Gives me some time with school getting back in soon and all, and shold be able to finish everything.

Amateur! :smalltongue:

3 it is, then. Pssh, at least some of us have actually been working on our classes in the standard time! :smalltongue:

[Ranged Ranger]

So the class proper for my entry has been finished for a couple weeks now, other than some mistakes I just corrected... (Let me know if you see any I've still missed)

My new Ruul and Laen Sigils with related Sigil Words and Improved Sigil Feats are all up now.

Extended time may allow me to come up with Sigil Words for Voosh... If not, I'm fine entering the competition without Voosh. Mostly adding new Sigils/Sigil Words to make up for having to say "See page X in book Y" to avoid posting features that are not open content...

Please PEACH... Especially interested in feedback on the new Sigils/Sigil Words...

[Westhart]

Amateur! :smalltongue:

3 it is, then. Pssh, at least some of us have actually been working on our classes in the standard time! :smalltongue:

Now Jorm, I am wounded :smalltongue:. I've been working on them, and have all the paragon classes beside the satyr done, a class for the pixie done, and am working on a few others. Really the LeShay will take a good bit of time with what I intend to do.

[JoshuaZ]

Well, I never even had time to start mine for this one, and unfortunately with the new semester starting I'm not going to be able to. I may do some quick PEACHing this weekend of the existing entries though.

[Jormengand]

You know, I don't think I'm even surprised that three posts weren't enough. My rough estimate is now six, but honestly I don't know.

Also elite dire animals were boooooooooriiiiiiiing. Seriously, there's only so many ways to express "This is an animal but better" on one monster.

[noob]

Basically you take an animal then make it better twice?
Also there is already two kinds of banshee called banshee in 3.5(one updated from 3.0 by wotc and one from forgotten realms) and one in pathfinder so unless you are doing your prc for something else than dnd 3.X then it is weird to call one of your elite monsters banshee.

also


Elite spells like folding fortress are difficult to resist fully. See invisibility and similar devices don't reveal the entrance, and even true seeing only entitles the user to an opposed caster level check to attempt to see it. The elite versions of both spells work fine, however.

I guess I resist very efficiently the stare of a medusa: I became stone?
I think you are trying to do a "conjurer: the elite caster" and a "monster manual: the elite manual" that is excessive work.(which makes you have an hard time writing all the details and seeing if the template fits)

[Jormengand]

Also there is already two kinds of banshee called banshee in 3.5(one updated from 3.0 by wotc and one from forgotten realms) and one in pathfinder so unless you are doing your prc for something else than dnd 3.X then it is weird to call one of your elite monsters banshee.

I'm not overly concerned that there might be multiple monsters lurking somewhere with the same names. Like you said, there's already two, so it's not like duplicates can't happen.


I guess I resist very efficiently the stare of a medusa: I became stone?

???


I think you are trying to do a "conjurer: the elite caster" and a "monster manual: the elite manual" that is excessive work.(which makes you have an hard time writing all the details and seeing if the template fits)

I mean, yeah, it's a lot of work. But it's fine, I've managed this kinda level of stuff before and I'll manage it again.

[noob]

Elite spells like folding fortress are difficult to resist fully. See invisibility and similar devices don't reveal the entrance, and even true seeing only entitles the user to an opposed caster level check to attempt to see it. The elite versions of both spells work fine, however.
You used the term resist for speaking of detecting the folding fortress.
Probably because you do not have the time for proof reading everything.

[Jormengand]

You used the term resist for speaking of detecting the folding fortress.
Probably because you do not have the time for proof reading everything.

The invisibility effect on the door is difficult to resist, as in overcome. It makes a roundabout kind of sense, but it does make sense.

[noob]

The invisibility effect on the door is difficult to resist, as in overcome. It makes a roundabout kind of sense, but it does make sense.

Yes but to any normal person it looks like if you fell asleep because of overworking and then did not read back the template you copied with the local modifications due to the spell.
(people knowing you knows you do not sleep and that you never fail a true-name check)

[Ranged Ranger]

Went ahead and uploaded most of my remaining Sigil words, Vooshkrau is the only one I have left...

Am I correct that the three week extension makes the new deadline the 26th?

[Jormengand]

"I might need to reserve two posts". Oh, my naive past self. How hopelessly optimistic you were.

[Westhart]

"I might need to reserve two posts". Oh, my naive past self. How hopelessly optimistic you were.

Hehe, I've just realized that I may need another (le sigh).

Well, got the paragons up, and be warned they could be called 3 level PrC's instead, as they are a tad more powerful, but seeing that all of them have either LA or RHD (if not both) I think it's fine. Now, the Le Shay have been bothering me, as really once you take out their spell likes they are too similar to a soulknife (sigh). So, have a rough, but it resists any attempts to make it better. On the bright side I have a fae scholar concept that's almost done, and besides cap stones it seems the rest are roughly done... just on time it seems :smallbiggrin:

Oh Jorm, nice work with all the Elite's, but question: The invisible stalker is undetectable (elite version), does that include magic that would detect it?

[Jormengand]

Hehe, I've just realized that I may need another (le sigh).

Well, got the paragons up, and be warned they could be called 3 level PrC's instead, as they are a tad more powerful, but seeing that all of them have either LA or RHD (if not both) I think it's fine. Now, the Le Shay have been bothering me, as really once you take out their spell likes they are too similar to a soulknife (sigh). So, have a rough, but it resists any attempts to make it better. On the bright side I have a fae scholar concept that's almost done, and besides cap stones it seems the rest are roughly done... just on time it seems :smallbiggrin:

Oh Jorm, nice work with all the Elite's, but question: The invisible stalker is undetectable (elite version), does that include magic that would detect it?

Because see invisibility and true seeing remove invisible from the list of things it is (inaudible, inolfactible, intangible...) you can see it with that. Similarly if your wizard has researched a true hearing spell, it would work. Because divination abilities like discern location aren't senses (and some, like circle dance, actually give you feedback by pointing you in the right direction, literally turning your body towards the target) those would work. Scrying wouldn't let you see it without some kind of spell that works through a scrying sensor, and clairaudience wouldn't let you hear it. Darkvision (the spell) grants darkvision (the sense) and therefore wouldn't work.

In particular, detect thoughts, see invisibility, locate creature, true seeing, discern location and greater prying eyes would detect it. Clairaudience, clairvoyance, arcane eye, scrying and greater scrying wouldn't. Detect magic, arcane sight and greater arcane sight might, depending on whether or not it was under a spell effect. Prying eyes might, because they might get stuck trying to move through the hidden doom, but they can't see it. Foresight wouldn't detect it exactly, because it doesn't really do that, but it does give you warnings on how best to protect yourself, which could include "Cast see invisibility and look up".

[Gideon Falcon]

Really liking the Elite spellcasters so far. I'm guessing that's going to be your entries to the next few to several contests?

[Jormengand]

Really liking the Elite spellcasters so far. I'm guessing that's going to be your entries to the next few to several contests?

Maybe-possibly. It depends what the themes are and whether or not I have any better ideas for each contest. If the next theme is the melee/ranged "Switch hitter" theme then it might be harder (unless I make some weird bisexuality pun* and make a love mage).

*If you don't get the joke, you need to think harder about the possible metaphorical uses of the term "Switch hitter".



For now, I just need the rest of the elite creatures. And a freaking poem!

[noob]

I guess shapechanging in an elite creature could be a very good defense.(gaining the elite creature extraordinary special quality)

Also why do jaguars have immunity to electricity and fire?
I mean who could guess "hey it is a jaguar a perfectly normal animal so I should not use fireball or lightning because it is well known animals are often immune to fire and lightning"

[Westhart]

Because see invisibility and true seeing remove invisible from the list of things it is (inaudible, inolfactible, intangible...) you can see it with that. Similarly if your wizard has researched a true hearing spell, it would work. Because divination abilities like discern location aren't senses (and some, like circle dance, actually give you feedback by pointing you in the right direction, literally turning your body towards the target) those would work. Scrying wouldn't let you see it without some kind of spell that works through a scrying sensor, and clairaudience wouldn't let you hear it. Darkvision (the spell) grants darkvision (the sense) and therefore wouldn't work.

In particular, detect thoughts, see invisibility, locate creature, true seeing, discern location and greater prying eyes would detect it. Clairaudience, clairvoyance, arcane eye, scrying and greater scrying wouldn't. Detect magic, arcane sight and greater arcane sight might, depending on whether or not it was under a spell effect. Prying eyes might, because they might get stuck trying to move through the hidden doom, but they can't see it. Foresight wouldn't detect it exactly, because it doesn't really do that, but it does give you warnings on how best to protect yourself, which could include "Cast see invisibility and look up".
I thought so, just making sure :smallsmile:.

[Jormengand]

I guess shapechanging in an elite creature could be a very good defense.(gaining the elite creature extraordinary special quality)

"In general, abilities do not allow you to transform into elite creatures unless they specify so in the description. Not even polymorph any object can turn a creature into an elite creature. Similarly, abilities don't allow you to summon or call elite creatures unless they tell you so in the description."


Also why do jaguars have immunity to electricity and fire?
I mean who could guess "hey it is a jaguar a perfectly normal animal so I should not use fireball or lightning because it is well known animals are often immune to fire and lightning"

Artistic license?

I don't know that badgers are particularly well known for raging until death either. And if it were a perfectly normal jaguar, it would just use the stats for a tiger anyway, most likely. Hells, orcas are killer whales and the huge shark statblock specifies it includes great whites. Originally, I wasn't going to give elite spells individual names (so conflagration would just have been called elite fireball) but then I realised that it was more evocative to at least give them some name, and the same remains true of the creatures. Hells, they even influenced some of my design decisions (from that joke about handwashing and FREEDOM! of movement to the fact that Hounds of Tindalos have that weird teleport). But they're not meant to imply that yeah, this jaguar is just a normal boring jaguar that happens to be able to survive having a building dropped on it and still be up for some lava-swimming later. It's elite, it's special, there's something else to it.



The maker is now finally done, with:

38587 words (Rest combined: 10926)
4406 lines (Rest combined: 1303)
234539 characters (Rest combined: 63150)
53 new elite spells (7 old; 1 old referenced)
192 new elite creatures (2 old)

...

...and 1 exhausted Jormengand.

[Ranged Ranger]

The Chiaroscuri is now complete, at least for the purposes this competition. Any comments/suggestions on the balance of the new Sigil Words (or any other part of the entry) is of course welcome.

[Jormengand]

The Chiaroscuri is now complete, at least for the purposes this competition. Any comments/suggestions on the balance of the new Sigil Words (or any other part of the entry) is of course welcome.

If you insist:

"Maximum ranks" requirement is a bad idea, particularly because you are thereafter forced to take maximum ranks or lose the benefits of the levels, well maybe, but also it means you can change whether or not you qualify from one level to another repeatedly, which is weird.
Learn language is not a skill. Speak language is.
Why seven levels? It just seems weird.
Ruul is way stronger than either of the other two. Both of the others are almost weak compared to standard sigils (compare +2 to initiative and all dex skills with +10 to two dex skills)
Improved Sigil (Ruul) is usually just a bad version of Improved Initiative, a feat that's already relatively weak outside of core (it's not the worst, but you don't take it if there's any real competition for your feat slots).

[noob]

Oh no so it means I am not going to have an easy time getting a lava pool with jaguars?

[Jormengand]

Hey, NA, can we have a voting thread please? :smalltongue:

[Ranged Ranger]

-SNIP- The maker is now finally done, with:

38587 words (Rest combined: 10926)
4406 lines (Rest combined: 1303)
234539 characters (Rest combined: 63150)
53 new elite spells (7 old; 1 old referenced)
192 new elite creatures (2 old)

...

...and 1 exhausted Jormengand.
You do realize the contest is for prestige classes, not new source books? :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:


If you insist:

"Maximum ranks" requirement is a bad idea, particularly because you are thereafter forced to take maximum ranks or lose the benefits of the levels, well maybe, but also it means you can change whether or not you qualify from one level to another repeatedly, which is weird.oh... forgot about the cease to meet the entry requirements - loose benefits of the levels you have rule... was thinking what should it take to get the first lvl, and after that your fine.... (been way to long since I've actually had a group to play with....) hmm...

Learn language is not a skill. Speak language is.Oops...

Why seven levels? It just seems weird. because it didn't seem worth stretching it out past what I had content for.

Ruul is way stronger than either of the other two. Both of the others are almost weak compared to standard sigils (compare +2 to initiative and all dex skills with +10 to two dex skills) Drat, I had considered making those higher, but wasn't sure where the balance point would be...

Improved Sigil (Ruul) is usually just a bad version of Improved Initiative, a feat that's already relatively weak outside of core (it's not the worst, but you don't take it if there's any real competition for your feat slots). so maybe +3 per sigil?

Thanks for the feedback! Since we're past the extended deadline, I guess I'll wait until after the vote to release a version 2 with those updates/fixes (and possibly others to the sigil words) on my Homebrew Thread...

[Jormengand]

You do realize the contest is for prestige classes, not new source books? :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Shoosh! :smalltongue:

At least it could be worse. There was that time I made what could easily literally have been a sourcebook on its own for one of the base class contests. I'll let bekeleven explain:


The inventor does a lot of things right. It does a lot of things wrong. It just plain does more things than the other contestants... combined. The inventor is over 23,000 words. That's over 4 times longer than the next longest, and far more of it is necessary to understanding the mechanics of the class, as opposed to mine, which is about half fluff and game notes. It's approaching the length of the Tome of the Holy Grai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362608)l, my pet project for going on 4 years - longer than I've been registered on these forums. And most of it appears to have been built in two weeks, all of it in 4.

Honestly, game design is kinda my passion. I'm posting this inbetween working on DBD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?547544-Dishonour-Before-Death!), and trying to relax for a while, and going back to scribbling away at the combat system, and trying to relax, and ah, screw it, let's make more games. I have 150ish pages of a broken mess that I'll never finish (and which, in the places it works at all, was used to inform the design process of DBD), I have tons of homebrew, oh, and I'm working on an actual splatbook as well. It's just the way I am. This is my obsession, I guess. :smallbiggrin:

[Westhart]

Hey, NA, can we have a voting thread please? :smalltongue:

Throwin' together one now, was... unavailable this weekend.

[Jormengand]

Throwin' together one now, was... unavailable this weekend.

That ellipsis makes me slightly concerned. You okay?

[Aniikinis]

Yeah, I'm with Jorm, are you alright?

[Westhart]

That ellipsis makes me slightly concerned. You okay?

I am now, one of my friends apparently forgot I was allergic to corn syrup... Yeah...

...anyhow, here's the voting thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?549593-Prestige-Class-Voting-Thread-II-Race-to-the-Top&p=22795433#post22795433) everyone.

[Morphic tide]

I am now, one of my friends apparently forgot I was allergic to corn syrup... Yeah...

...anyhow, here's the voting thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?549593-Prestige-Class-Voting-Thread-II-Race-to-the-Top&p=22795433#post22795433) everyone.

Don't forget to put a link in your signature.

[Westhart]

Don't forget to put a link in your signature.

Aha, thought I forgot something! Merci!

[Goes to add]

[Jormengand]

Aha, thought I forgot something! Merci!

[Goes to add]

You also didn't put the class links in the voting thread, though that probably doesn't actually matter.

[Westhart]

You also didn't put the class links in the voting thread, though that probably doesn't actually matter.

Oh, I suppose I'll go add those later today, slipped my mind completely. XD

[rferries]

Btw, thanks for arranging this NothingAbnormal. Recent experience on other forums has taught me that this is a surprising amount of work!

[Westhart]

Btw, thanks for arranging this NothingAbnormal. Recent experience on other forums has taught me that this is a surprising amount of work!

Ah, no problem, it was bothering me that there wasn't one honestly... Wish I hadn't gotten sick, then my entry may have had a bit more then just paragons :smallsigh:.

[Westhart]

I guess this is the part where i tell you lot to start arguing over the next theme :smalltongue:.

[Morphic tide]

I guess this is the part where i tell you lot to start arguing over the next theme :smalltongue:.

Switch hitters.

[Westhart]

Switch hitters.

You know, I'll throw my vote behind that, as I've got an idea in mind, not sure of the quality, but it is an idea :smallamused:.

[Jormengand]

Ehh, why not? I could go for something which isn't an elite caster, and this sounds like a great excuse for something simple.

Simple-ish anyway. :smalltongue:

[Westhart]

Ehh, why not? I could go for something which isn't an elite caster, and this sounds like a great excuse for something simple.

Simple-ish anyway. :smalltongue:

Awh, I like the elite casters though! :smalltongue:

[Jormengand]

Awh, I like the elite casters though! :smalltongue:

Of course, there is the possible compromise here...

Indirect Shot (Elite Far Shot)
Prerequisite: Dead Shot
Benefit: As Far Shot, plus you do not need line of effect to make attacks - you can fire over or around barriers so long as there is some way your shot could reach the target, even by ricocheting off walls or potentially passing straight through them if they're weak enough.
Special: Elite feats like Indirect Shot are difficult to resist fully. Your opponent cannot claim cover or concealment for any interposing barrier that you can bypass this way, though you still need to know that they're there.

[Aniikinis]

I'm putting my vote in for Creepy Crawlies!

[Jormengand]

I'm putting my vote in for Creepy Crawlies!

No! No! I... there is a reason I made all of the elite vermin templates! Stop, fiend! :smalltongue:

[Aniikinis]

No! No! I... there is a reason I made all of the elite vermin templates! Stop, fiend! :smalltongue:

Listen, just because you made elite vermin before, doesn't mean you have to again. Maybe you'll make a class about spitting bees and flying with feathers like Urki from Far Cry: Primal. Who knows, I certainly don't. [See profile pic for emotion of this post :smallwink:]

[Morphic tide]

I'm against creepy crawlies because I'd just pop out a crazy synergy with Hive Master, one way or another. Or just make the epic progression...

[neriractor]

I vote switch hitters.

[rferries]

Perhaps the contest winner could choose? Otherwise I vote Creepy Crawlies too!

[Westhart]

Perhaps the contest winner could choose? Otherwise I vote Creepy Crawlies too!

Eh, I like it more up to a vote, but if everyone wants to do winner chooses then [shrug]. I don't really mind.

[sengmeng]

Eh, I like it more up to a vote, but if everyone wants to do winner chooses then [shrug]. I don't really mind.

I vote winner picks, but only from options that have been seconded by others on this thread.

[Westhart]

Finally back, should have the voting stuff all tallied up today//tomorrow, sorry for the delay!

[Jormengand]

No worries!

If it helps, I've done up a count for you - you nearly ninja'd me with your vote, so I might have slipped up adding in your scores, but I'm pretty sure this is right.

1: The Maker (3+0+3+0+2+0+0+3+3=14)
2: The Chairoscuri (0+1+2+2+3+0+0+2+1=11)
3: The Quintessential [Race] (0+0+1+3+0+0+3+0+2=9)
4: The Rat Lord (0+3+0+0+1+1+2+1=8)
5: The Faerie Courts (1+2+0+0+0+3+1+0=7) and
6: The Interplanar Merchant (2+0+0+1+0+2+0+0=5)

Most Original: The Maker (0+1+1+1+0+0+0+0+0=3))
(2nd Most Original: The Chiaroscuri (1+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+1=2)
(6th Most Original: The Interplanar Merchant (0+0+0+0+1+0+0+0+0=1), The Racist Paragon (0+0+0+0+0+1+0+0+0=1), The Rat Lord (0+0+0+0+0+0+1+0+0=1) and The Lidless Master (0+0+0+0+0+0+0+1+0=1))

Most Likely to See Play: The Maker (1+0+0+0+0+1+0+0+1=3)
(3rd Most Likely to See Play: The Rat Lord (0+1+0+0+0+0+0+1+0=2) and The Quintessential [Race] (0+0+1+1+0+0+0+0+0=2)
(5th Most Likely to See Play: The Faerie Courts (0+0+0+0+1+0+0+0+0=1) and the Chiaroscuri (0+0+0+0+0+0+1+0+0=1)

Best Use of Theme: The Quintessential (1+1+1+1+0+1+1+0+1=7)
(2nd Best Use of Theme: The Maker (0+0+0+0+1+0+0+1+0=2)

(Aniikinis+rferries+Gideon Falcon+MrNobody+neriractor+Ranged Ranger+Jormengand+noob+NothingAbnormal=Total)
(You have no idea how bad I wanted to write "GIDEON FALCON" in all-caps right then. I've done it now. :smalltongue:)

[Westhart]

No worries!

If it helps, I've done up a count for you - you nearly ninja'd me with your vote, so I might have slipped up adding in your scores, but I'm pretty sure this is right.

1: The Maker (3+0+3+0+2+0+0+3+3=14)
2: The Chairoscuri (0+1+2+2+3+0+0+2+1=11)
3: The Quintessential [Race] (0+0+1+3+0+0+3+0+2=9)
4: The Rat Lord (0+3+0+0+1+1+2+1=8)
5: The Faerie Courts (1+2+0+0+0+3+1+0=7) and
6: The Interplanar Merchant (2+0+0+1+0+2+0+0=5)

Most Original: The Maker (0+1+1+1+0+0+0+0+0=3))
(2nd Most Original: The Chiaroscuri (1+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+1=2)
(6th Most Original: The Interplanar Merchant (0+0+0+0+1+0+0+0+0=1), The Racist Paragon (0+0+0+0+0+1+0+0+0=1), The Rat Lord (0+0+0+0+0+0+1+0+0=1) and The Lidless Master (0+0+0+0+0+0+0+1+0=1))

Most Likely to See Play: The Maker (1+0+0+0+0+1+0+0+1=3)
(3rd Most Likely to See Play: The Rat Lord (0+1+0+0+0+0+0+1+0=2) and The Quintessential [Race] (0+0+1+1+0+0+0+0+0=2)
(5th Most Likely to See Play: The Faerie Courts (0+0+0+0+1+0+0+0+0=1) and the Chiaroscuri (0+0+0+0+0+0+1+0+0=1)

Best Use of Theme: The Quintessential (1+1+1+1+0+1+1+0+1=7)
(2nd Best Use of Theme: The Maker (0+0+0+0+1+0+0+1+0=2)

(Aniikinis+rferries+Gideon Falcon+MrNobody+neriractor+Ranged Ranger+Jormengand+noob+NothingAbnormal=Total)
(You have no idea how bad I wanted to write "GIDEON FALCON" in all-caps right then. I've done it now. :smalltongue:)

Oops, I didn't add the category points to the total score, so I suppose some adjustments need to be made (scurries to go do so).

[Jormengand]

Oops, I didn't add the category points to the total score, so I suppose some adjustments need to be made (scurries to go do so).

The... categories don't add points to the total score...

[Westhart]

The... categories don't add points to the total score...

I suppose that I just miscounted... ugh...

[Jormengand]

I suppose that I just miscounted... ugh...

Either that or I did, but I think it's Maker, Chiaroscuri, Quintessential.

[Gideon Falcon]

(You have no idea how bad I wanted to write "GIDEON FALCON" in all-caps right then. I've done it now. :smalltongue:)
... I'm not sure what I've done to deserve this great honor, but thanks for the send-up, I suppose.

[Jormengand]

... I'm not sure what I've done to deserve this great honor, but thanks for the send-up, I suppose.

It's a fun name to say. I dunno, I imagine it being said like the SSB anouncer says "Captain Falcon! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaYbu6g0N_8)" (only with "Gideon" instead of "Captain") I guess.

Maybe I'm just weird. Maybe that's it.

[Westhart]

Either that or I did, but I think it's Maker, Chiaroscuri, Quintessential.

Nah, I messed up (goes to fix post).

[neriractor]

woo! I won something! Are we chosing the new contest by popular vote then?

[Jormengand]

woo! I won something! Are we chosing the new contest by popular vote then?

From the numbers and my vote, I don't think it makes a difference whether it's winner's choice or popular vote. We're probably doing the melee and ranged hybrid builds next.

[rferries]

From the numbers and my vote, I don't think it makes a difference whether it's winner's choice or popular vote. We're probably doing the melee and ranged hybrid builds next.

Righto! Can the switch-hitting also be between magical and non-magical class features?

[Morphic tide]

From the numbers and my vote, I don't think it makes a difference whether it's winner's choice or popular vote. We're probably doing the melee and ranged hybrid builds next.

Didn't I bring up having a Sorcerer/Monk class based on Arcane Mark abuse that punches people to turn them into delayed Fireballs? Gishy switch hitters should be perfectly fine.

[Jormengand]

Didn't I bring up having a Sorcerer/Monk class based on Arcane Mark abuse that punches people to turn them into delayed Fireballs? Gishy switch hitters should be perfectly fine.

I mean, sure, but that's still fundamentally melee and ranged but with spells.

[Morphic tide]

I mean, sure, but that's still fundamentally melee and ranged but with spells.

Not really, no, because all the spell application is close quarters combat. You can set them off at range, but you have to be close up to deliver it. Of course, then you get into shenanigans like Marking arrows and snagging Zen Archer stuff to unload multiple entire days worth of Evocations in a single round. Hopefully, I can prevent that from being a problem.

[sengmeng]

Well I'm going to start working on a switch hitter prestige class. I guess it'll be fun even if the theme changes later.

[Jormengand]

On the basis that NA hasn't posted in over a month, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555863-Prestige-Class-Contest-III-Switch-Hitters)'s the new contest. I've altered the first rule slightly because, well, I'm not sure that there was any good reason to restrict to 5-10, but the rule wasn't actually observed during Race to the Top anyway.

[ShiningStarling]

Psst, rferries, you listed Restoration in the base Light Touch, also you don't provide a caster level for the effects.

[rferries]

Psst, rferries, you listed Restoration in the base Light Touch, also you don't provide a caster level for the effects.

Whoops thanks.

[rferries]

On the basis that NA hasn't posted in over a month, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555863-Prestige-Class-Contest-III-Switch-Hitters)'s the new contest. I've altered the first rule slightly because, well, I'm not sure that there was any good reason to restrict to 5-10, but the rule wasn't actually observed during Race to the Top anyway.

Hey, anyone have any word from NothingAbnormal? As Jormengand says, he hasn't posted in a while.

[Westhart]

On the basis that NA hasn't posted in over a month, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555863-Prestige-Class-Contest-III-Switch-Hitters)'s the new contest. I've altered the first rule slightly because, well, I'm not sure that there was any good reason to restrict to 5-10, but the rule wasn't actually observed during Race to the Top anyway.
Thanks for running it in my... unexpected absence! :smallbiggrin::smallredface:

Hey, anyone have any word from NothingAbnormal? As Jormengand says, he hasn't posted in a while.

Yeah, had some RL... stuff come up that I needed some time to deal with, my apologies to everyone for just disappearing like that, and hopefully it won't happen again (sigh).

[Aniikinis]

Hope everything's alright for you NA.

I might join in if I manage to get my freaking homebrew race(and the various subraces) done first and before the deadline. I was almost ready to post it before my chrome crapped itself and restarted, losing all of the stuff I'd written down. So, I'm gonna stop procrastination and get back to making it before I tear my hair out. And I won't wanna do that. My hair is super long and wavy and awesome and smells like mint. I love my hair. Please don't make me tear my hair out GitP.

[Westhart]

Hope everything's alright for you NA.

Thanks :smallsmile:


I might join in if I manage to get my freaking homebrew race(and the various subraces) done first and before the deadline. I was almost ready to post it before my chrome crapped itself and restarted, losing all of the stuff I'd written down. So, I'm gonna stop procrastination and get back to making it before I tear my hair out. And I won't wanna do that. My hair is super long and wavy and awesome and smells like mint. I love my hair. Please don't make me tear my hair out GitP.

The browser or a chromebook ((Hate those things so much :smallfurious:))?

[Aniikinis]

Thanks :smallsmile:

Welcome!


The browser or a chromebook ((Hate those things so much :smallfurious:))?

Browser. I may be a little masochistic(easily seen by my gaming preference...), but I prefer to have literally everything I'd ever want to use/play work on my computer thank you.

[Aniikinis]

Rferries, do you play Smite? I have a feeling that you play Smite given that your class is basically Hel's playstile from Smite. See pics in spoiler.

https://d1u5p3l4wpay3k.cloudfront.net/smite_gamepedia/a/a2/T_Hel_Default_Card.png?version=ec25712a311dff37166 a75e9dae065ba
https://orig00.deviantart.net/9ada/f/2016/185/e/9/chibi_hel2_700_by_zennore-da8opbs.png
https://d1u5p3l4wpay3k.cloudfront.net/smite_gamepedia/d/d2/T_Hel_InnerDemon_Card.png?version=015a6cfa927f2917 d05bf08ab499e424


Still not sure what I should do for the contest. No idea seems to jump out at me.

[rferries]

Rferries, do you play Smite? I have a feeling that you play Smite given that your class is basically Hel's playstile from Smite. See pics in spoiler.

https://d1u5p3l4wpay3k.cloudfront.net/smite_gamepedia/a/a2/T_Hel_Default_Card.png?version=ec25712a311dff37166 a75e9dae065ba
https://orig00.deviantart.net/9ada/f/2016/185/e/9/chibi_hel2_700_by_zennore-da8opbs.png
https://d1u5p3l4wpay3k.cloudfront.net/smite_gamepedia/d/d2/T_Hel_InnerDemon_Card.png?version=015a6cfa927f2917 d05bf08ab499e424


Still not sure what I should do for the contest. No idea seems to jump out at me.

I'm afraid my only experience with Smite is the artwork - I came across it when trawling for fantasy art to use in homebrew! :D The Moon Disciple is actually based on Mr. Negative (the Spider-Man supervillain).

And I suggest making something based around one of your homebrew races, there's loads of potential there. A Dunewalker prestige class that lets them master the skies as well as the earth, perhaps?

[Aniikinis]

I'm afraid my only experience with Smite is the artwork - I came across it when trawling for fantasy art to use in homebrew! :D The Moon Disciple is actually based on Mr. Negative (the Spider-Man supervillain).

Ah, okay, I say that due to how she's usually played in arena mode. Here's her abilities. (https://smite.gamepedia.com/Hel) Save the legion of darkness, you can see why I say that.


And I suggest making something based around one of your homebrew races, there's loads of potential there. A Dunewalker prestige class that let's them master the skies as well as the earth, perhaps?

Maybe, but nothing is particularly jumping out to me. I'm trying to think of the mechanics I would use in my head for various duality types but nothing is really catching.

[Jormengand]

I can't think of a good name for an archer/swordsman. But I know what the basic idea of the class I wanna do is.

[Morphic tide]

I can't think of a good name for an archer/swordsman. But I know what the basic idea of the class I wanna do is.

Hmm... Can't think of any groups that specifically used bow and sword in unison. The general pattern is focused archers also picking up good sword skills... and rarely needing to use them because bows are absurdly effective. The Mongols were nothing but horse archers and ran over most of the Old World while doing so.

[rferries]

I can't think of a good name for an archer/swordsman. But I know what the basic idea of the class I wanna do is.

Manticore? (sometimes you use "claws" in melee, sometimes you fire "spikes" from a distance)

[MrNobody]

Posted my Adaptive Hunter, not over yet but i'll come back to finish it in a couple of days!

[Aniikinis]

Manticore? (sometimes you use "claws" in melee, sometimes you fire "spikes" from a distance)

If I have the motivation I'll do a class for the manticore, that suggestion has given me an idea for something involving wing-claws, naturally enhanced natural weapons, and supernatural effects through natural means (such as injection delivery mechanisms and roars)

[MoleMage]

I've thrown the juggler into the ring! (pun definitely intended)

Returning after a couple years of absence from the forums, had a good inspiration for classes this week so I'm gonna use it. We'll see if it carries through to the next contest.

[Lanth Sor]

I can't think of a good name for an archer/swordsman. But I know what the basic idea of the class I wanna do is.

Why not Sword Slinger.
https://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_small/1/17172/767592-baleog.png
Baleog uses swords as both Melee and ranged weapons.

[sengmeng]

Well the Psionic Assassin is up. It's bare-bones playable, but I'm still going to create 10 unique psionic powers for its list (which I have names and disciplines decided for so far), and am open to ideas for more special abilities. Its power levels should be easy to assess as is. I had a few goals here: make a stealthy psionic class, let the Soulknife have something nice for once, and make a psionic "half caster" (War Mind and Psionic Fist net you up to 5th level powers, Psychic Warrior gets you 6th, no existing psionic class stops you at 4th unless you just don't finish it). Secondarily, I wanted a one level dip to be nice for some builds (especially ones who plan to take more Rogue levels), but offer decent incentives to stick it out to 5, 10, or even the full 15, with ability to enter at level 5 and still have one level to put into another class for customizability. PEACH.

[Jormengand]

So, enough of the brigand is up to make it obvious roughly what it's going to be like, at least. I'll do some more when I actually feel up to it.

[sengmeng]

So, enough of the brigand is up to make it obvious roughly what it's going to be like, at least. I'll do some more when I actually feel up to it.

I guess so far it looks fine, does what it should, fits the theme, but it's pretty much a big question mark until the elite feats it can take are spelled out. Or are they posted somewhere and I just missed them?

[Jormengand]

I guess so far it looks fine, does what it should, fits the theme, but it's pretty much a big question mark until the elite feats it can take are spelled out. Or are they posted somewhere and I just missed them?

I have literally just now added them, though I'll eventually stick on a few more that make it good at specifically using ranged and melee weapons together.

[sengmeng]

I have literally just now added them, though I'll eventually stick on a few more that make it good at specifically using ranged and melee weapons together.

Ok, well it makes the fighter obsolete, but that's kind of like making a wooden car obsolete. However, it's really attractive to any martial character whether they want to be good at both melee and ranged or focus on one; I don't know if that's a detriment or not. I certainly wouldn't bother pointing that out if it wasn't being made for a contest. My entry also doesn't become a switch hitter if you don't take the correct abilities. I think the main issue I would have with the brigand as a DM is that it can't exist in a vacuum; if it was the only elite class I'd nix it in a heartbeat, but I guess as long as there's other elite options I'd allow it.

Edit: why an elite version of Shot on the Run but not Spring Attack? And how about a super duper elite feat that has both as prerequisites and lets you mix ranged and melee attacks while moving?

[MoleMage]

Graceful Strike could probably be two feats. Maybe make the defensive part Elite Combat Expertise with a slight kick in the pants?

[Aniikinis]

Alright, the Sky-Land Warrior is up. I know most of it is feats, so yeah...

[rferries]

Alright, the Sky-Land Warrior is up. I know most of it is feats, so yeah...

I lurve that art!

[MrNobody]

Fixed and finished my Adaptive Hunter in a hurry: there may be a lot of typos and the text might not be perfect, but it's done and (i think) playable.

I don't think i'll have time to change things in the the folloing days, but PEACH is always appreciated!

[JoshuaZ]

Ok. I'm not going to have time to make a PrC for this one (and honestly don't have any really good ideas for one) but I will try to do some quick EACHing:

Moon Disciple:

This has a neat Jekyll and Hyde feel to it, although it plays with the alignment in a more subtle way. It reads like it was written by someone who is Lawful Good (And I picture the author saying to themselves "Well of course Evil and Chaos go together").


"The followers appear only after an hour-long ritual which the Moon Disciple must perform in his Dark Aspect. If he shifts to his Light Aspect, the followers vanish instantly until the next time he performs the ritual."

So these followers aren't real people but magically created beings? But the ability is (ex)? This seems weird.

Bowstaff Striker:
This is a neat concept and has good mechanics. I would suggest that for Never Off Guard it shouldn't automatically cause unstringing unless they want it to, but that may be too powerful. Not sure.

Adaptive Hunter:

Hmm, not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand it is better than a generic fighter to the point where it becomes extremely tempting to anyone with just a few feats. On the other hand, the generic 3.5 fighter is so weak that insisting that PrCs not give it a boost would keep them very weak.

For the Bonus Feat I would add a clarification that if they qualified for the class with both options than they should be able to choose a bonus feat for either. Actually, for that matter, why not just simplify this to being a bonus feat that has to have either Two Weapon Fighting or Point-Blank Shot as a prerequisite?

Juggler:

Class is generally good. Needs some specification on which abilities are (Ex) and which are (Su). My guess is that most abilities are (Ex) but I could see the capstone going either way.

Psionic Assassin:

Hmm, there is an official 3.5 psionics using Assassin, called the Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) but yours is in many ways closer to the 3.5 Asssassin class. I like the fact that it is 15 levels, and they seem to be spread out nicely.

I like the list of special abilities one can choose from, which does a good job letting one customize (something that many PrCs unfortunately don't really let you do much of). It might make sense to specify if abilities can be taken more than once. In particular, I could see someone wondering this about Psionic Student.

Brigand:

Class name is odd- a Brigand is literally a highway robber, and the class is more generic than that. I'm really concerned about the balance level of this class- the Elite Feats are extremely strong and I worry that anyone playing this would outshine pretty much anyone else in combat, not even base classes, even someone who has levels in some of the +1 Tier PrCs (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1573.0). That said, it might be a good way for a non-Tome of Battle melee character to keep up with ToB characters.

The Sky-Land Warrior:

Ok. This PrC is amazingly original. One should specify which abilities are (Su) and which are Ex. For example, some of the quill enhancements could plausibly go either way.
I would strongly consider spreading this out to 5 or 6 levels since that many abilities in 4 levels is very condensed.

[MrNobody]

For the Bonus Feat I would add a clarification that if they qualified for the class with both options than they should be able to choose a bonus feat for either. Actually, for that matter, why not just simplify this to being a bonus feat that has to have either Two Weapon Fighting or Point-Blank Shot as a prerequisite?


Qualifing for the class with both options would be odd since the whole point of the class is "you don't need to follow two specializations: follow one, the class will make you proficient with the other".

I was so strict with the bonus feat because the class aims to have you specialize in one way, give you bonus feat for that particular combat style and then allowing to swap the whole thing for another different style.

Qualifing with both will open two option to me:
- qualifiy with both and apply to both, with little to no effect at all (you swap TWF with point blank shot... and point blank shot with TWF);
- qualify with both, apply to one, with a loss of feats (you have TWF and point blank shot, you swap TWF... now you have 2 indentical feats).

I'll leave things as they are. Thanks for PEACHing!

[Aniikinis]

The Sky-Land Warrior:

Ok. This PrC is amazingly original. One should specify which abilities are (Su) and which are Ex. For example, some of the quill enhancements could plausibly go either way.
I would strongly consider spreading this out to 5 or 6 levels since that many abilities in 4 levels is very condensed.

Danke schoen, I'll get right on that and I think I will space it out to 6 levels because I mistyped a command for the 5th level.

[sengmeng]

Psionic Assassin:

Hmm, there is an official 3.5 psionics using Assassin, called the Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) but yours is in many ways closer to the 3.5 Asssassin class. I like the fact that it is 15 levels, and they seem to be spread out nicely.

I like the list of special abilities one can choose from, which does a good job letting one customize (something that many PrCs unfortunately don't really let you do much of). It might make sense to specify if abilities can be taken more than once. In particular, I could see someone wondering this about Psionic Student.

I actually had the class entirely typed up with the name ae psychic assassin before I Google searched and found that name was already taken. Their version seemed much closer to the normal 3.5 assassin with its limited spellcasting replaced with psionics.

I added a sentence before the special abilities saying that Psionic Student, Keen Soul, and Practiced Sneak can be taken multiple times, but it seemed like it should be clear since Psionic Student's description includes the phrase "each time you take this special ability," and the other two discuss how they interact if you take them multiple times.

[MoleMage]

Ok. I'm not going to have time to make a PrC for this one (and honestly don't have any really good ideas for one) but I will try to do some quick EACHing:
Juggler:

Class is generally good. Needs some specification on which abilities are (Ex) and which are (Su). My guess is that most abilities are (Ex) but I could see the capstone going either way.


Thanks!

I've been playing so much 5e lately I forgot that abilities have different categories in 3.5 I'll add it all in. Your guess was also correct (with the capstone going to Su since it has interaction with spells beyond "getting out of the way really good").

[sengmeng]

The Psionic Assassin's powers are finished, and it should be basically finalized. PEACHes appreciated, but the deadline is almost here, so no worries.

[rferries]

Ok. I'm not going to have time to make a PrC for this one (and honestly don't have any really good ideas for one) but I will try to do some quick EACHing:

Moon Disciple:

This has a neat Jekyll and Hyde feel to it, although it plays with the alignment in a more subtle way. It reads like it was written by someone who is Lawful Good (And I picture the author saying to themselves "Well of course Evil and Chaos go together").

Haha guilty as charged! I dithered over making it law vs chaos or good vs evil, and ended up using both. The dichotomy was the main thing.


"The followers appear only after an hour-long ritual which the Moon Disciple must perform in his Dark Aspect. If he shifts to his Light Aspect, the followers vanish instantly until the next time he performs the ritual."

So these followers aren't real people but magically created beings? But the ability is (ex)? This seems weird.

Rewritten to be (Su), and added reference about them not being able to enter an antimagic field etc.

Kind of late to give feedback now, but everyone's entries look pretty good at a glance anyways. Have a great weekend, distinguished competitors!

[sengmeng]

If no one minds, I'll throw up a voting thread if it hasn't been done in a couple days.

[MrNobody]

I don't mind at all!

[Jormengand]

Oh, I kinda forgot this existed when my computer blew up and I was without stable internet for a while. Sorry people!

I'll get up a voting thread either later or tomorrow...

[sengmeng]

Oh, I kinda forgot this existed when my computer blew up and I was without stable internet for a while. Sorry people!

I'll get up a voting thread either later or tomorrow...

No worries; you already stepped up once. I thought I would too if need be.

[Jormengand]

And here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?558298-Prestige-Class-Contest-Voting-Thread-III-Switch-Hitters) we go.

[sengmeng]

Last day of voting! I'll try to make sure I get around to that...

[Aniikinis]

I have gone back and corrected so many minor flow errors and tiny typos on that one post than any other that I've made before. I think I've edited it like 14 times so far with just minor little text nitpicks (missing a letter, misplaced comma, slight reading flow mistake, etc.). It's probably just because of how I'm reading it but it's just annoying me so much.

[MrNobody]

I think i'll manage to throw my votes in the next 3-4 hours. Please, wait for me!!!!!

[Jormengand]

I think i'll manage to throw my votes in the next 3-4 hours. Please, wait for me!!!!!

Noted; I'll wait a while for you. Especially since I forgot to get my votes in for today and I really oughta sleep, so mine will be tomorrow too.

[JoshuaZ]

Congratulations to Jormengand and Molemage with their first place ties. Congrats also to Aniikinis, ObliviMancer, and rferries for their category wins.

So, what is the next context theme going to be?

[Jormengand]

The themes I've seen listed that we haven't done yet are Creepy Crawlies, Salvation and Damnation, and The Planes. Given the massive objections that have been leveled against Creepy Crawlies, I recommend doing "Heaven or Hell" as a way to roll the other two together - implying either something to do with the planes, or to do with morality, or however you want to interpret that.

The input of other people is appreciated, though. I may be a dictator, but I'm a benevolent one.

[sengmeng]

I recommend doing "Heaven or Hell" as a way to roll the other two together - implying either something to do with the planes, or to do with morality, or however you want to interpret that.

Seconded


I may be a dictator, but I'm a benevolent one.

Seconded

[Aniikinis]

I'm cool with whatever. And with the class, I mostly just wanted to try something and mainly wanted to give a fighting style that required far too many feats to be worth it. If I was going to flesh that out more, I'd refine the quill abilities, change a few things, and just generally make it better. But this was still a learning experience.

[rferries]

I vote for Heaven & Hell too, though I might not be able to submit an entry this time around.

[Jormengand]

And here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559742-Prestige-Class-Contest-Thread-IV-This-could-be-Heaven-or-Hell)'s the Heaven or Hell contest.

[sengmeng]

Considering the dual nature of the theme, would anyone object to an entry of two similar but opposite prestige classes?

[rferries]

Considering the dual nature of the theme, would anyone object to an entry of two similar but opposite prestige classes?

Clever idea, I approve!

[Jormengand]

Considering the dual nature of the theme, would anyone object to an entry of two similar but opposite prestige classes?

I don't mind, certainly, especially since I'm sure there are ways of rewriting it as one class but it's probably just neater to split it into two.

[MrNobody]

I'm thinking about a cleric/binder theurge that uses pact magic to bind the force of archdevils: i could it be ok or too much out of theme?

I'm not sure i'll manage to write something down, since i'm getting married in a couple of weeks, but i'll try!

[Jormengand]

I'm thinking about a cleric/binder theurge that uses pact magic to bind the force of archdevils: i could it be ok or too much out of theme?

I'm not sure i'll manage to write something down, since i'm getting married in a couple of weeks, but i'll try!

That seems fine.

Congrats on finding The One.

[MrNobody]

Congrats on finding The One.

Thanks Jorm :)

[sengmeng]

Congrats on finding The One.

http://i66.tinypic.com/9k85g2.jpg
Thanks Jorm!

[JoshuaZ]

Ok. My entry, the Keyholder is now up. Definitely PEACH.

[rferries]

I'll give a quick bit of feedback to everyone.

Righteous Sinner
-Given that they get Bluff & Intimidate, perhaps they should get Diplomacy too (to balance out the "evil" social skills)?
-Salvation & Damnation - it'll be very interesting to see how this works out. Does rescuing 100 orphans balance out killing 100 peasants? To maintain neutrality, will a PC have to constantly say things like "I'm only completing this quest for the money"? :D
-Retrograde, Font of Blood, Vengeance - all very flavourful.

Hellbound Cultist
-Looks like it'll be a nice little theurge class. Don't know enough about binders to comment much, but congrats on getting hitched!

The Keyholder
-Superb flavour quote; did you paraphrase someone else or was that entirely your own writing?
-The skill and spellcasting requirements are a bit awkward (I get that you want sorcerers and limited-spells-known to be able to enter... maybe simply "summon monster I/II/III and one of protection from chaos/evil/good/lawful"? "at least three Conjuration (Summoning) spells?")
-Nice touch about adapting for Pathfinder
-Needs a few minor edits e.g. Utilitarian Spellcasting in table vs Utilitarian Summoner in text
-Minor quibble, but if "the four ethical alignment types' is redundant (since there are only four alignment types). I usually say the moral alignments are Good and Evil and the ethical alignments are Chaos and Law.
-Utilitarian Summoner: not affecting your alignment is very cool and the effectively doubled caster level is great for spell durations, but the bonus hp is so minor it should be deleted or buffed (+1 hp per class level to each of the summoned creature's HD? Or +1 hp per class level per level of the summon spell?)
-Gates: there has to be an easier way to phrase and balance this. I get what you mean but it's a very inelegant mechanic.
-Gates (cont'd): I don't mind telling you that I'll most likely be assigning your class 1st place, these are all amazing and well-balanced thematically and mechanically. My only quibble is that Understanding the Great Choir, Understanding the Fallen, Understanding the Disciplined, and Understanding the Anarch are extremely niche (and technically don't help you when using planar binding, I'd at least rephrase them to "+2 bonus on Sense Motive, Charisma-checks, and Charisma-based skill checks when dealing with outsiders of X alignment").
-The rest of the lore is great!
-Sorry if that's a lot of feedback, yours was simply the most complete class thus far so there was more to say.

Looking good, everyone!

[JoshuaZ]

I'll give a quick bit of feedback to everyone.


The Keyholder
-Superb flavour quote; did you paraphrase someone else or was that entirely your own writing?


My own writing, but it summarizes a lot of my own objections to the alignment system as a whole mixed in with a little bit summarzing how medieval occultists actually thought about things (summoning angels and demons together was considered completely reasonable).



-The skill and spellcasting requirements are a bit awkward (I get that you want sorcerers and limited-spells-known to be able to enter... maybe simply "summon monster I/II/III and one of protection from chaos/evil/good/lawful"? "at least three Conjuration (Summoning) spells?")

Hmm, I'll probably go with the last one that works well enough.



-Nice touch about adapting for Pathfinder

Thanks. I've been trying to generally include this for all PrCs I make now, but it is definitely easier for some than others. Spellcasting didn't change as much as say grappling so there really wasn't much to do.



-Needs a few minor edits e.g. Utilitarian Spellcasting in table vs Utilitarian Summoner in text


Fixed. Thanks.



-Minor quibble, but if "the four ethical alignment types' is redundant (since there are only four alignment types). I usually say the moral alignments are Good and Evil and the ethical alignments are Chaos and Law.

Fixed.



-Utilitarian Summoner: not affecting your alignment is very cool and the effectively doubled caster level is great for spell durations, but the bonus hp is so minor it should be deleted or buffed (+1 hp per class level to each of the summoned creature's HD? Or +1 hp per class level per level of the summon spell?)

Part of the thought process was to make it still occasionally worth-while to use low level summons at higher levels. Hmm, if one finishes the PrC then at level 15 one is likely summoning 7th level beings. So one is adding around 10% to their hitpoints, which yeah, is not a lot. I guess the other worry then is that by that point, one is functionally 2 levels behind a straight wizard summoning who can summon off the 8th level list. But adding say 70 hp to a bone devil who is already at 95 hp seems a bit much. If one did do something where it functioned off of spell level would then actually have the nice option though of allowing it to be boosted off of heighten metamagic. Ok. I'll go with (class level *spell level)/2 (min 1) which has nice scaling and doesn't lead to too high numbers on the upper end. If you or anyone else has a suggestion for a tweak to this formula, I'd be happy to hear it.



-Gates: there has to be an easier way to phrase and balance this. I get what you mean but it's a very inelegant mechanic.


Yeah, the difficulty here is twofold. One is that for fluff reasons they shouldn't be able to just open gates from a single alignment or two alignments. Second is that some of the Gates are too strong to be taken early. If you have any suggestions for a better way to do this I'd certainly like to hear it. The other idea I had was to have a formula that simply said you cannot have more gates of any alignment than the smallest number of gates of any other alignment +2. Would that work? I'll have to think about it.



I don't mind telling you that I'll most likely be assigning your class 1st place, these are all amazing and well-balanced thematically and mechanically.


Thanks!



-Gates (cont'd): My only quibble is that Understanding the Great Choir, Understanding the Fallen, Understanding the Disciplined, and Understanding the Anarch are extremely niche (and technically don't help you when using planar binding, I'd at least rephrase them to "+2 bonus on Sense Motive, Charisma-checks, and Charisma-based skill checks when dealing with outsiders of X alignment").


Good call. So modified.



-Sorry if that's a lot of feedback, yours was simply the most complete class thus far so there was more to say.

No problem. More feedback is good.

[JoshuaZ]

Quickly EACHing other entries. I'm going to restrict this to the Purgator and the Plane Strider which are both essentially done(although I really want to see the completed versions of the Hellbound Cultist and the Righteous Sinner).

Purgator:

Overall, seems well done.


Prerequisites:
To become a Purgator, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Alignment
Any lawful.

Skills
Knowledge (religion) 9 ranks.

Languages
Abyssal, Infernal.

Feats
Track.

Spells
Ability to cast 1st-level divine spells.

Special
Turn (not rebuke) undead class feature.

Why is Track required? That seems a little outside what the class does, and none of the class features interact with it. Also, is there a reason you want 9 ranks in Knowledge(religion)? Is there a specific balance issue if people could enter the class at 6th level?


A Purgator loses class features (and must seek atonement) for committing chaotic acts as normal.

From the SRD: "A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities" Is there another class you are thinking of which loses class features for committing chaotic acts?

For Turn Evil ability, what does "spellcaster" mean? Does it mean able to cast spells? If so, an evil warlock who has a contract with hell wouldn't be able to be turned? This may need to be phrased more carefully (or just include a note for DMs to interpret it broadly).


At 10th level, a Purgator may expend a turn attempt to use greater dispel magic as an immediate action (caster level = character level). He may only counter or dispel [Evil] effects or effects created by evil creatures in this way.

This last ability is less of a restriction than it might sound like otherwise since most parties are going to be against evil creatures.

Regarding the Spellcasting progression- you can might be able to get away with another level or two of spellcasting increasing. 5th level would be the obvious place to put it. Maybe someone else can comment on if that would be balanced.


Plane Strider


Prerequisites: Knowledge(the planes) 9 ranks, class ability that grants +6 damage against outsiders or a specific subset of outsider.

Most of the class features involve travel. Is there a reason that they have as a prerequisite a specific combat ability? Also what is the intended entry for the class? I would have guessed from the last ability Ranger 10, but then they'll need some other feat to get the knowledge ranks without it being a cross-class skill. If they enter with Ranger 10/Clr 1 then they cannot finish the PrC until 21st level. One might want to try some sort of early entry using a clever PrC but I can't see an immediate way of doing so. My first guess was to use a few levels of Knight of the Chalice (from Complete Warrior) with ranger, but this doesn't work at two levels (since you require a single class to have +6 and because Knight of the Chalice cannot be entered without already having a whole bunch of knowledge(religion) ranks already).

Planar Training- maybe specify that this has to be a base class. Otherwise, this leads to some serious possibilities for shenanigans.

Planar Expertise- You may need to specify here which abilities are ex and which are su.

Specific comments on the various Planar Expertise:

Elemental Swallower - This initially seems like a weird way of doing this, but then I read the Elemental Resurgence and it makes sense.

Both the Planar Anchoring and Cut the Anchor features are very mechanically unique and interesting. I'm not sure that giving its own pool for Cut the Anchor this is the best way to do this in this context.

Overall, I like it.

[rferries]

Quickly EACHing other entries. I'm going to restrict this to the Purgator and the Plane Strider which are both essentially done(although I really want to see the completed versions of the Hellbound Cultist and the Righteous Sinner).

Purgator:

Overall, seems well done.

Many thanks!


Why is Track required? That seems a little outside what the class does, and none of the class features interact with it.

Track (and the social skills, and the Use Rope skill) were for flavour about the Purgator hunting down, capturing, and interrogating supernatural evil. Hellbound is really the only class feature interacting with this, I admit.


Also, is there a reason you want 9 ranks in Knowledge(religion)? Is there a specific balance issue if people could enter the class at 6th level?

Oops I made a mistake! Should be 8 ranks, so that a paladin can get a special mount (at 5th level) before entering.


From the SRD: "A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities" Is there another class you are thinking of which loses class features for committing chaotic acts?

I've always interpreted "ceasing to be lawful good" as both "ceasing to be good" and "ceasing to be lawful" e.g. paladins shouldn't be allowed to Bluff except for a good cause IMHO. In any event I've rewritten the section a bit.


For Turn Evil ability, what does "spellcaster" mean? Does it mean able to cast spells? If so, an evil warlock who has a contract with hell wouldn't be able to be turned? This may need to be phrased more carefully (or just include a note for DMs to interpret it broadly).

Good catch, added a little note.


This last ability is less of a restriction than it might sound like otherwise since most parties are going to be against evil creatures.

Regarding the Spellcasting progression- you can might be able to get away with another level or two of spellcasting increasing. 5th level would be the obvious place to put it. Maybe someone else can comment on if that would be balanced.

Yeah these two points balance each other out, I think. A cleric can get 15th-level spellcasting with this class; I felt sacrificing 9th-level spells was worth it for the power to counter villain's spells with ease.

Thanks again!

[MrNobody]

The Hellbound Cultist is done... but i have no time to write down the vestige version of the Nine Archdukes.

I wanted to post my work anyway: i hope you like it. I may complete it when i'm back from my honeymoon :smallsmile:

Good luck to everybody!

[Jormengand]

I think that my takeover of both the 3.5 homebrew contests was long overdue. :smalltongue:

Can anyone think of some more abilities that they want to see on the righteous sinner? I'm definitely making the 10th-level one celestial/fiend/something themed around flaws, but not sure on any of the others that I haven't done yet.

[rferries]

The Hellbound Cultist is done... but i have no time to write down the vestige version of the Nine Archdukes.

I wanted to post my work anyway: i hope you like it. I may complete it when i'm back from my honeymoon :smallsmile:

Good luck to everybody!

Wish I knew enough about binders to comment. At a glance seems better than a mystic theurge (in that it has class features and advances rebuke undead), but that's hardly a bad thing. Enjoy the honeymoon!


I think that my takeover of both the 3.5 homebrew contests was long overdue. :smalltongue:

Can anyone think of some more abilities that they want to see on the righteous sinner? I'm definitely making the 10th-level one celestial/fiend/something themed around flaws, but not sure on any of the others that I haven't done yet.

I still feel like they should get Diplomacy or at least Gather Information, for righteous sinners who don't want to use "evil" social skills (Bluff and Intimidate).

The acquisition of salvation and damnation points is probably what the entire class will hinge on. Even if all the good, evil, and neutral abilities are perfectly balanced against each other, players will be irritated if they're aiming for certain abilities but the DM decides their actions warrant points of an unwanted type. At least you're better off as a righteous sinner than a paladin though (in that you'll still have abilities if you "fall", just not the abilities you wanted). Good luck finding a happy medium!

In general I feel like the wait time for abilities could be reduced to 1d4 rounds (symmetry with a breath weapon). Since the class doesn't have anything do do other than spam the abilities, they should be able to use them more freely.

Also, the focus on hit point damage may or may not be troublesome... I think you should at least include ability damage/drain as things that can be reflected/shared/doubled.

Spirit Shield - this protects only the RS, correct? If not, should specify a range/target etc. (same for Holy Vengeance, Font of Blood, Equality, and Retrograde).

Cooperation - to differentiate it from the evil ability, maybe give the bonus on saves instead of attack rolls? Jut a flavour suggestion though.

Holy Vengeance - what happens with area effects? If a 10th-level wizard casts a fireball on X enemies, does he take X times 10d6 damage? Same for the other evil and neutral abilities that divide or double damage. And come to think of it, also applies to Spirit Shield (e.g. if you protect yourself from a fireball, do you automatically protect everyone else?).

As for suggestions... a minor, repeating lay on hands ability for salvation, a minor damaging equivalent for damnation, and an ability that can act as either (healing neutral creatures, harming creatures of extreme alignments)?

[JoshuaZ]

Ok. July 5th. Last day of contest. Any last minute suggestions or changes I should make to the Keyholder?

Also, general reminder to everyone that today is the last day.

[Jormengand]

I'm going to request, and then grant myself (FEEL THE POWER!) a one-week extension because I'm just that kind. Also I got really really busy recently. Sorry! On the plus side, more time to get your own entries in.

[JoshuaZ]

I'm going to request, and then grant myself (FEEL THE POWER!) a one-week extension because I'm just that kind. Also I got really really busy recently. Sorry! On the plus side, more time to get your own entries in.

Do you know when you are going to put up the contest voting thread?

[Jormengand]

Do you know when you are going to put up the contest voting thread?

Soon. Sorry, I'm an emotional wreck and I just can't handle anything at the moment. Tomorrow probably.

[rferries]

Soon. Sorry, I'm an emotional wreck and I just can't handle anything at the moment. Tomorrow probably.

Oh dear... very sorry to hear that. :( Would you like someone else to take over? No rush either way, it's just an internet contest!

[JoshuaZ]

Soon. Sorry, I'm an emotional wreck and I just can't handle anything at the moment. Tomorrow probably.

Sorry to hear that. I hope everything works out. And don't worry too much about this. Silly internet contests aren't as important as self-care. If you want, someone else can run the voting thread.

[JoshuaZ]

We haven't gotten many votes. Do people want to hurry up and get their votes in before the voting closes. Voting thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564102-Prestige-Class-Contest-Voting-Thread-IV-This-could-be-Heaven-or-Hell).

[rferries]

We're just waiting for the votes from MrNobody I think.

[JoshuaZ]

We're just waiting for the votes from MrNobody I think.

There's no reason though that non-contestants shouldn't add their votes also.

[rferries]

There's no reason though that non-contestants shouldn't add their votes also.

Ah yes of course! :)

[JoshuaZ]

Thank you for rferries for closing the contest. Congratulations to everyone. Is there desire for another contest and if so, what do people want as a theme?

[rferries]

I'd most likely be up for one. The prestige contests are easier to write up than the base class contests, IMHO.

[MrNobody]

I'm really sorry i forgot to vote for the contest: the last few month were though, i mostly lurked the forum barely giving a reply or two. I totaly forgot about the contest and about the Hellbound Cultist.

Since you liked it so much I may work on it in the near future to finish it.

If i'll manage to gather enough time to brew i will gladly pick up the next contest, this time managing to vote first! :)

[JoshuaZ]

Suggested themes:

"Swords and sorcery"- for gishes.

"Hybrid power" - for theurge classes (this has been done a few times in previous contests and seems to never get old.)

"Light is not necessarily good. Darkness is not necessarily evil."

"Against the Gods"

"With a single spell"

"Forbidden knowledge"

A few which have broad themes which aren't as narrowly defined but sound neat enough:

"Nature or nurture"

"Fate or free will"

"Blood and iron."

Do any of these particularly appeal to anyone?

[neriractor]

Suggested themes:

1)"Swords and sorcery"- for gishes.

2)"Hybrid power" - for theurge classes (this has been done a few times in previous contests and seems to never get old.)

3)"Light is not necessarily good. Darkness is not necessarily evil."

4)"Against the Gods"

5)"With a single spell"

6)"Forbidden knowledge"

A few which have broad themes which aren't as narrowly defined but sound neat enough:

7)"Nature or nurture"

8)"Fate of free will"

9)"Blood and iron."

Do any of these particularly appeal to anyone?

I like 2, 6 and 9. And will be participating in the next one, thanks for reviving it!

[Lanth Sor]

Light of Sin/Shadow of Purity, Blood and Iron

[Morphic tide]

Suggested themes:

"Swords and sorcery"- for gishes.

"Hybrid power" - for theurge classes (this has been done a few times in previous contests and seems to never get old.)

"Light is not necessarily good. Darkness is not necessarily evil."

"Against the Gods"

"With a single spell"

"Forbidden knowledge"

A few which have broad themes which aren't as narrowly defined but sound neat enough:

"Nature or nurture"

"Fate of free will"

"Blood and iron."

Do any of these particularly appeal to anyone?

I'll be down for "Swords and Sorcery", "Hybrid Power", "Against the Gods", "With a Single Spell" and "Blood and Iron". The first two and last can be met by the same setup of Tome of Battle crossing with Infusions, oddly enough, while the second and third overlap with Invocation/Divine combinations that override the usual restrictions on Divine magic.

I'm thinking of "Blood and Iron" as battle-smith ideas and blood-based crafting, FYI.

[rferries]

To throw even more votes into this confusing mix, I'll vote for:

Hybrid Power

"Light is not necessarily good. Darkness is not necessarily evil."

Blood & Iron

[Aniikinis]

Tossing my hat in again just in case I have a burst of motivation:

"Forbidden Knowledge"

"With a Single Spell"

"Light is not necessarily good. Darkness is not necessarily evil."

[ShiningStarling]

With a single spell, for sure, cause I love playing with the text of spells for fun results, and the sheer amount of spells in the game is more limiting than freeing

[JoshuaZ]

I wasn't intending my list to be comprehensive, but I guess people have interpreted it that way? If there are any others people would rather see for the next contest, by all means let's hear them!

[JoshuaZ]

Ok, bumping slightly, and tallying votes: Single spell 3 Forbidden Knowledge 2 Hybrid Power 3 Light is not necessarily good 2 Blood and Iron 4 Against the Gods 1 Swords and Sorcery 1, so right now it looks like "Blood and Iron" looking to be the next contest.

[JoshuaZ]

And based on the voting, I've decided to go and start our new contest which can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?580376-Prestige-Class-Contest-V-With-a-Single-Spell&p=23690110#post23690110).

[Maat Mons]

Giantitp imitating minmaxforum (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6782) imitating giantitp (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6746.0).

[rferries]

Giantitp imitating minmaxforum (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6782) imitating giantitp (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6746.0).

Ha! After reading some of those I'm a bit intimidated - the Master of Opening and Closing is probably the best possible take on this theme :D

[JoshuaZ]

Ha! After reading some of those I'm a bit intimidated - the Master of Opening and Closing is probably the best possible take on this theme :D

Yeah, I agree some of those are very good.

Right now I'm working on one tentatively called a "Counterfactual Caster". They use Mage's Lucubration but can recall spells one never cast because there are possible versions of themselves that would have cast that spell.

[MrNobody]

I'm toying around a couple of ideas: the Nostalgic (?) Mage, a wizard that studies one of its first level spells so hard that unlock other new effects for it; or a necromancer that uses speak with the dead to assume feats, skills, memories and even the appearence of the dead.

I hope i'll gather enough time to work on one of these.

[rferries]

I'm toying around a couple of ideas: the Nostalgic (?) Mage, a wizard that studies one of its first level spells so hard that unlock other new effects for it; or a necromancer that uses speak with the dead to assume feats, skills, memories and even the appearence of the dead.

I hope i'll gather enough time to work on one of these.

Both of those sound cool! The former might entail a LOT of work though.

[MrNobody]

Both of those sound cool! The former might entail a LOT of work though.

I know, sadly. And with my current lack of time it might not be the best choice: i'm afraid it would remain unfinished like my entry for the previous contest!

Anyway, if i'll manage the time needed i'll use only the 1st level wizard spells from Players Handbook and no more.

[JoshuaZ]

Rferries, a quick few thought on The Prestigidator:

"meaning that she does need a divine focus to cast them"
- should this be "does not need"?

Also, does duplication of spells this way count as knowing the spell for prerequisite purposes? Also, when a spell is duplicated this way, is the save DC and effective spell level that of the heightened spell or that of the original spell?
Can they only duplicate spells from the classes listed or can they also duplicate specialized spells from other classes?

Also, why extend only 5 levels? If the class went another 5 can duplicate 5th level spells with 7th level slots
which doesn't seem unbalanced as long as they lost a caster level somewhere. And then that would potentially lead to a nice epic progression.

Finally, some thoughts about other potential class features: It might be neat if they can automatically cast prestidigitation as a stilled or silenced spell a certain number of times daily. Also, maybe a level 1 heightened prestidigitation should be able to duplicate cantrips?

[rferries]

Rferries, a quick few thought on The Prestigidator:

"meaning that she does need a divine focus to cast them"
- should this be "does not need"?

Absolutely, can't believe I missed that.


Also, does duplication of spells this way count as knowing the spell for prerequisite purposes? Also, when a spell is duplicated this way, is the save DC and effective spell level that of the heightened spell or that of the original spell?
Can they only duplicate spells from the classes listed or can they also duplicate specialized spells from other classes?

-Doesn't count as knowing the spell (just as being able to cast limited wish doesn't mean you know all low-level spells etc).
-Added proviso re: spell level and DCs
-Can duplicate unique spells yes; the listed classes are just for spells that appear on multiple lists.


Also, why extend only 5 levels? If the class went another 5 can duplicate 5th level spells with 7th level slots
which doesn't seem unbalanced as long as they lost a caster level somewhere. And then that would potentially lead to a nice epic progression.

That's a bit more powerful than I was planning with respect to the class flavour; note that this prestige class gives a HUGE amount of versatility to sorcerers in particular.


Finally, some thoughts about other potential class features: It might be neat if they can automatically cast prestidigitation as a stilled or silenced spell a certain number of times daily. Also, maybe a level 1 heightened prestidigitation should be able to duplicate cantrips?

Added at-will prestidigitation. Cantrips can be duplicated with the 3rd-level prestidigitation (inelegant but I can't imagine bothering to duplicate a cantrip anyways).

[JoshuaZ]

-Doesn't count as knowing the spell (just as being able to cast limited wish doesn't mean you know all low-level spells etc).
-Added proviso re: spell level and DCs
-Can duplicate unique spells yes; the listed classes are just for spells that appear on multiple lists.


Hmm, the ability to duplicate unique spells is going to be really powerful potentially.



That's a bit more powerful than I was planning with respect to the class flavour; note that this prestige class gives a HUGE amount of versatility to sorcerers in particular.

Yeah, that's essentially why I was thinking if one did so one would need to lose some caster levels to make up for it. I agree that a sorcerer is going to find this insanely useful even as just five levels.



Added at-will prestidigitation. Cantrips can be duplicated with the 3rd-level prestidigitation (inelegant but I can't imagine bothering to duplicate a cantrip anyways).

Probably a good enough solution then. And yeah, almost any time one wants to use a cantrip one would have a first level spell one can duplicate that will be as good or better.

[Gideon Falcon]

I'm just sad Jormungandr never got to finish his Elite Spellcaster series. They were some really cool concepts- whatever problems anybody had with him, he was definitely a good brewer.

[MrNobody]

What happened to Jorm? I 've just realized he got banned!!

[Unavenger]

What happened to Jorm? I 've just realized he got banned!!

So, the version I heard was that it revealed that it was attracted to children, this led to a flame-war, and "attracted to" got heavily misinterpreted at some point along the line with predictable results. It's about on Myth-Weavers and MinMax forums (also on Discord, which is where I mainly keep up with it) if you wanted to ask it more than that. I don't want to post a long update on its behalf about where various projects are headed because, well, we have a rule that you can't post on the behalf of banned posters. But there are ways to ask it directly, still.

[MrNobody]

Thanks unavenger. I don't want to put you in trouble by asking further.

[JoshuaZ]

Ok. I don't know what "Unearthly Meins" are going to be, but I'm really looking forward to finding out.

[MrNobody]

Posted my deadspeaker in a rush. Couldn't make up a table, full of typos as the Abyss is full of demons.
I'll come back in the following days to fix it up.

[Unavenger]

I'm just sad Jormungandr never got to finish his Elite Spellcaster series. They were some really cool concepts- whatever problems anybody had with him, he was definitely a good brewer.

So, just supposing that I had managed to get its permission to continue the series (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?580376-Prestige-Class-Contest-V-With-a-Single-Spell&p=23725582#post23725582) - you'd be interested in that, hmm? :smallwink:

[JoshuaZ]

Unavenger, I'm looking forward to seeing how the Elite spellcasting system is going to be worked to be consistent with a theme of With a Single Spell.

[Unavenger]

Unavenger, I'm looking forward to seeing how the Elite spellcasting system is going to be worked to be consistent with a theme of With a Single Spell.

The idea is that the forerunner only casts a single spell in each situation, because that spell gives them all the powers they need to deal with that situation. I find all of the "You get a single spell and make it better" things only really work if you either pick a spell that was obnoxiously versatile in the first place, or add a bunch of tangentially-related uses to it. So the connection to the theme is, "With a single spell [cast], I solve this problem!" not "With a single spell [known], I do all the things!"

[JoshuaZ]

The idea is that the forerunner only casts a single spell in each situation, because that spell gives them all the powers they need to deal with that situation. I find all of the "You get a single spell and make it better" things only really work if you either pick a spell that was obnoxiously versatile in the first place, or add a bunch of tangentially-related uses to it. So the connection to the theme is, "With a single spell [cast], I solve this problem!" not "With a single spell [known], I do all the things!"

That's a very interesting interpretation and not one I at all expected. Definitely looking forward to the details.

[Unavenger]

That's a very interesting interpretation and not one I at all expected. Definitely looking forward to the details.

The other thing I was considering was some kind of "Combinatoric casting" which allowed you to use multiple spell slots on a single spell, but ultimately this ended up being either metamagic abuse related or too complicated, and I couldn't see how to scale the concept over multiple levels.

[rferries]

So, the version I heard was that it revealed that it was attracted to children, this led to a flame-war, and "attracted to" got heavily misinterpreted at some point along the line with predictable results. It's about on Myth-Weavers and MinMax forums (also on Discord, which is where I mainly keep up with it) if you wanted to ask it more than that. I don't want to post a long update on its behalf about where various projects are headed because, well, we have a rule that you can't post on the behalf of banned posters. But there are ways to ask it directly, still.

...the heck!? I had my share of tiffs with them but that is a bit hard to take in. Do you have a link to the thread where it all went down? I've googled them but they don't seem to have posted much on the other boards you mentioned.

[JoshuaZ]

I've also added one item and a minor artifact to the Counterfactual Caster. Comments on balance and the like for those items would also be appreciated.

[Indigo Knight]

Yay!

I published my own.
Good luck to all.

[JoshuaZ]

Yay!

I published my own.
Good luck to all.

Three quick comments: First, I like the idea. Second, is it necessary to have them lose all regular spellcasting? Sure, dispel magic is useful, but this seems a bit harsh. Third, you may want to specific which abilities are (su) and which are (ex).

[Indigo Knight]

errrr... depends on your definition of 'necessary'.
It wasn't done because of rule-ish reason. I just thought it was more fitting thematically.

I, honestly, don't know myself which they should be. Any for or against?

[JoshuaZ]

errrr... depends on your definition of 'necessary'.
It wasn't done because of rule-ish reason. I just thought it was more fitting thematically.

I can see the thematic appeal, but it would make them much less appealing to a player. If one is already not advancing spellcasting at all, that's already a pretty severe hit.




I, honestly, don't know myself which they should be. Any for or against?

They could probably all be be (ex) without any substantial issue.

Also, I would probably specify in Reactive Senses that they must still use a dispel magic, or discard a relevant spell, etc. to counterspell.

One other thought- if Spell Immunity cannot be voluntarily lowered (unlike spell resistance), it might make sense to say so. (Actually, the fact that you get all of these things at first level makes the loss of regular spellcasting more reasonable. If one didn't have that loss, this would look like a very tempting one level dip).

[Indigo Knight]

You see, the initial idea was to create a character that is very reactive, and also is better at fighting casters than others, but weaker at fighting non-casters than other classes.
So, that's why the no spellcasting. To emphasize the countering of casters when they are present, because they are present.



Also, I would probably specify in Reactive Senses that they must still use a dispel magic, or discard a relevant spell, etc. to counterspell.

They only have dispel magic to use.



If one didn't have that loss, this would look like a very tempting one level dip
what I wanted to avoid.

[Unavenger]

Blargh, I don't quite have enough time to finish it today. Don't suppose a two-day extension would be possible?

[noob]

I did think about a prc to cast a single spell in your whole life and at that moment you die permanently but your spell have setting wide effects.(like "now the setting is entirely on fire forever" or "now when someone attacks it takes 240 damage")
But it would not be really playable(you could possibly intimidate a lot of people in doing whatever you want against the threat of inter-planar annihilation or sacrifice yourself to shield a plane from invasions forever(like stop the chtulu mythos on earth to go in your plane) but not much more).
So by virtue of not being really playable but more a setting tool I did not create that prc.

[JoshuaZ]

Blargh, I don't quite have enough time to finish it today. Don't suppose a two-day extension would be possible?

If no one objects, we can certainly do that. Let's extend the deadline to March 13.

[Indigo Knight]

If no one objects, we can certainly do that. Let's extend the deadline to March 13.

I'd actually advise for extending by another week. Some only have free time on the weekends.

[JoshuaZ]

I'd actually advise for extending by another week. Some only have free time on the weekends.

Good point. We'll extend then to March 18 which should give everyone time.

In that case, while we're extending that much, does anyone have any feedback on the Counterfactual Caster they'd like to give?

[MrNobody]

Waiting for votation to end, what will the next theme be?

[JoshuaZ]

Waiting for votation to end, what will the next theme be?

Well, the last set the most votes for theme went to Hybrid Power. Are people still interested in that?

[MrNobody]

I'm ok with it!

[JoshuaZ]

So, assuming I've added up everything correctly, The Prestidigator comes in first place with 11 points. 2nd/3rd place are a tie between the Counterfactual Caster and the Adjudicator of the Sky Tower. More Original is a tie between the Accursed and the Deadspeaker. Most Likely to See Play is a tie between the Prestidigator and the Forerunner. Best Use of Theme is the Forerunner. Congratulations to all winners. Next contest will be up soon. The theme will be: Hybrid Power.

Congratulations to rferries, Lanth Sor, MrNobody, and Unavenger. If 2nd and 3rd place get congratulations then I should also congratulate Indigo Knight.

As per earlier discussion, the next theme will be hybrid power and the thread for that will be up shortly. Edit: Thread is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?585740-Prestige-Class-Contest-Thread-VI-Hybrid-Power)

[Lanth Sor]

Wrong Thread ;D

[Gideon Falcon]

So, just supposing that I had managed to get its permission to continue the series (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?580376-Prestige-Class-Contest-V-With-a-Single-Spell&p=23725582#post23725582) - you'd be interested in that, hmm? :smallwink:

YAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS. Sorry I missed the voting period, I don't frequent this site as frequently since all of the homebrew projects I was following went dead. This was one of those, though, so thank you muchly!

[The Kool]

Bookmarking this for the new contest... I have an idea. It's stupid but glorious.

[JoshuaZ]

I'll be doing a psionics/binder class. I'm quite busy with work, so it may be a while before I post it.

[neriractor]

may actually get time to make a class for this one :smallsmile:

[MrNobody]

There's a monster dwelling in my brain... a PrC for wizard AND cleric AND druid... the Triurge! I'm trying to make up my mind on it, i don't know if i'll partecipate but i may try!

[The Kool]

There's a monster dwelling in my brain... a PrC for wizard AND cleric AND druid... the Triurge! I'm trying to make up my mind on it, i don't know if i'll partecipate but i may try!

Ah you stole my stupid but glorious idea (actually, mine was Arcane+Divine+Psionic+Initiator+more?). It's okay, I had another. So, who wants to see a theurge class for Wizard and Archivist?

[MrNobody]

Ah you stole my stupid but glorious idea (actually, mine was Arcane+Divine+Psionic+Initiator+more?). It's okay, I had another. So, who wants to see a theurge class for Wizard and Archivist?

Go on The Kool, you can do it anyway.

I'm thinking about a class that gived spell slots from 3rd to 9th level that can be filled with any spell from the three classes (arcane, divine, nature).
In addition 4 paths will enable the pc to enhance familiar, turning, animal companion or sheer spell power.

If you are thinking about something different please do it :)

[The Kool]

No that's pretty good, I was just thinking of steep entry requirements but advancing everything fully.

I think my current goal is this Archivist/Wizard combo who winds up with a single spellbook for both and no distinction between divine and arcane spells as written in the book. Choose when memorizing, and later merge the two piles of slots and choose when casting.

[Morphic tide]

Well, I have my entry completed, though it's rather rough, quite likely in need of an errata pass to cover more edge cases (like a not!Epic progression for Meldshaping so you can go straight to Soulcaster/Saphire Hierarch/whatever without an Incarnate or Totemist dip). The overall idea is to basically be a replacement to a key level range for the Meleeficer/Archerficer, giving Incarnum buffs to magic items to try to compete with the Metamagic Spell Trigger/Completion features in the Artificer base class. And yes, I really did give it a capstone that lets it have an Essentia investment cap of 9, split between a magic item and soulmeld, with a bundle of bonuses to magic items being increased based on Essentia invested. If you decide to be a full caster with it.

To demonstrate how silly this gets:

Build stub: Wizard 4/Incarnate 1/Soulforge Meister 5/Soulcaster 10 (Wizard casting 17, Incarnate Meldshaping 10, Soulforge Meister Meldshaping 5)

Base Attack Bonus is only +11 if you're using fractional BAB. If you aren't, you don't get three attacks. However, you have 9th level spell slots. This means that you can have a +1 Defending weapon with an Essentia investment capacity of 9. Doing so means access to +9 to Attack rolls and damage and +10 to Deflection AC, more than making up for the BAB deficiency and giving a good pile of Touch AC on top, though more typical Gish characters would likely prefer the earlier iterative and their Gish-focused PRC benefits. Other, wider, items get much nastier, because the benefits apply to every discrete bonus the item has. And, of course, +9 to Intelligence by doing it with a Headband of Intellect, but I don't think magic item shenanigans are going to compete too well with actual dedicated spellcasting PRCs, like going for double-9ths or metamagic reducers.

The point of it is not to be properly balanced when used in full spellcasting, but to be neither a pure upgrade nor an obvious downgrade for the Artificer looking to make personal use of permanent items. As Artificers are 2/3rds "casters", the above shenanigans cap out at 6 Essentia, which is in line with a high-level Incarnate's boost, and it draws from limited daily uses or is restricted to one particular slot when one specific not-really-Soulmeld is Bound, having expended GP to get that set up. So the much wider bonuses that can be causing issues (+30 ft. movement speed, for example) are somewhat excused by the limitations involved.

After all, you have to make an item in that slot yourself for the permanent form, which means campaign time and liquid GP, during which you lose a highest-level slot and a chunk of Essentia, and even then it eats a Soulmeld and Chakra Bind if you do that, while the boosted capacity from burning a slot has to split between a Soulmeld in that slot and the item in that slot. Even the fact you can do it for other people shouldn't be that much of a problem relative to a full-caster who went after metamagic tricks, given that it doesn't come with the Dweomer Investiture bonus, so they just get an item immune to normal removal, a free Split Chakra and an improvement to Essentia investment capacity in one particular slot.

[JoshuaZ]

Ok. My entry, the Goetic Collectivist is now up. It may very much need some PEACHing, especially in regards to balance issues. Also, note that while I try to generally make my 3.5 homebrew always with a Pathfinder conversion, I haven't done so in this case because although there is a Pathfinder version of the Binder, it is a bit different, and it uses a completely different set of vestiges.

I've noticed that a few people who said they were going to put up entries have not yet done so, and for those on academic calendars, now may be a very busy time, so if there are no objections I'm going to extend the deadline by one week, say to the 22nd.

And now a few comments about the entries which are currently up:

The Sovereign: Is an interesting idea, and does a better job of making a Gish than many standard Gishes do. It seems like a natural class to go into if one has already finished out Eldritch Knight. Giving that class functionally 5 more levels seems like a good move. The class features don't really scream "Sovereign" to me. I'd suggest maybe a class feature which adds a bonus to diplomacy checks and to knowledge(nobility and royalty) checks?

Soulforge Meister: I'm not 100% sure what to say about this. I like the idea and it feels cool. It does allow pretty high essentia caps as you recognized. I'm not strongly familiar with the incarnum system so I'm not sure what to say there. If you are worried about them abusing the class by going in with a regular spellcaster, why not just insist they have a Craft Reserve to start and then just advance that?

True Mystic: The idea is interesting. I'd like it more if it had more class features (maybe a bonus to knowledge(arcana) and knowledge(religion) checks?). I have a slight balance concern in that a wizard/archivist is already pretty powerful when they go into mystic theurge and this bumps that up even higher. That said, in most circumstances, that's still slightly weaker than a slightly optimized wizard, so there's probably no issue there.

[Lanth Sor]

Can we get EXT for today I thought the due date was later.

[Morphic tide]

Can we get EXT for today I thought the due date was later.

JoshuaZ hasn't been on in the last two days.

[JoshuaZ]

Can we get EXT for today I thought the due date was later.

Well, as I mentioned earlier, I'm ok extending by a few more days because a few people who have expressed interest haven't put in their entries. You were one of the people. So if no one else objects, let's extend things to the 22nd.

[Silva Stormrage]

Well I am glad there was an extension for this. I suddenly got a good idea and ran with it. Vestige Knight's (Name probably is going to change as that is generic as hell) rough draft is up. I still need to give the abilities a once over for balance/readability and some of the abilities need much better names but the class should be mostly playable at the moment.

[JoshuaZ]

Well I am glad there was an extension for this. I suddenly got a good idea and ran with it. Vestige Knight's (Name probably is going to change as that is generic as hell) rough draft is up. I still need to give the abilities a once over for balance/readability and some of the abilities need much better names but the class should be mostly playable at the moment.

This is an absolutely awesome class. I love it and already have an idea for an NPC who might have levels in it in my next campaign.

A few quick comments:


Letting vestiges Vestige Knights give themselves an extra edge in power by giving their bound vestiges more opportunities to interact with the living word that they so crave.

I think the first two words here shouldn't be there?

The improvement of martial maneuvers is interesting- most martial maneuver classes instead improve with their own advancement path. This is mechanically very clean, and I like it.


They can have a maximum number of Influence Points equal to their charisma modifier and these are reset to 0 at the start and end of every encounter.

I worry that this is going to be too few influence points for someone unless they run into serious MAD issues. Maybe make the max number of influence points be equal to the charisma modifier (min 1) plus half class level? This will be especially important later on, when they hit 9th level and it becomes a lot easier to get influence points. Also, suggestion for one more use of influence points- as a free action be able to recover a single maneuver, but one needs to do so to spend influence points equal to the maneuver level.


he just made after knowing wether or not it hits

"wether" should be "whether" probably.

[quote]At 3rd level the Vestige Knight draw upon the experiance and knowledge of the vestiges bound to him to learn new manuvers. Now whenever the Vestige Knight binds a vestige to himself he can suppress one granted ability which has a five round cooldown granted by the vestige for the duration of the pact. In exchange he can select one maneuver he qualifies for. This does not have to be a discipline he normally has access to but he still must meet all prerequistes of the maneuver . While bound to that vestige he can use that maneuver once every five rounds. It is treated as a supernatural ability regardless if the maneuver was originally one or not. [/quote[

A few typos - "experiance" "manuvers" and "prerequistes".

I can see the not normally have access to bit as doing some interesting things- I'd be worried that a campaign using a lot of homebrew martial disciplines might make this power substantially more useful, so there's a bit of campaign dependence sliding scale of power here. But I doubt it would be a problem in most campaigns, and it isn't like most martial maneuvers are that powerful. Since binding and martial maneuvers aren't really high in power this shouldn't be an issue.

One other thought: does knowing this maneuver count as being known for other purposes? For example, could I use such a maneuver to qualify for a feat or prestige class? Could I use such a maneuver to write a martial script? These should probably be clarified.

Other comments: I like Martial Apotheosis. The idea of getting back vestige ability uses when one gets back martial maneuvers is really neat. I wonder if it should also work with any other abilities that give back all maneuvers since there are some things out there (albeit I think either homebrew or Pathfinder) which give back all maneuvers.

Overall, I really like this class, both the theme and the general mechanics. Seems mostly balanced and not too overpowered while doing a really good job of using the mechanics of both ToB and pact magic.

[Silva Stormrage]

This is an absolutely awesome class. I love it and already have an idea for an NPC who might have levels in it in my next campaign.

A few quick comments:



I think the first two words here shouldn't be there?

The improvement of martial maneuvers is interesting- most martial maneuver classes instead improve with their own advancement path. This is mechanically very clean, and I like it.



I worry that this is going to be too few influence points for someone unless they run into serious MAD issues. Maybe make the max number of influence points be equal to the charisma modifier (min 1) plus half class level? This will be especially important later on, when they hit 9th level and it becomes a lot easier to get influence points. Also, suggestion for one more use of influence points- as a free action be able to recover a single maneuver, but one needs to do so to spend influence points equal to the maneuver level.



"wether" should be "whether" probably.


At 3rd level the Vestige Knight draw upon the experiance and knowledge of the vestiges bound to him to learn new manuvers. Now whenever the Vestige Knight binds a vestige to himself he can suppress one granted ability which has a five round cooldown granted by the vestige for the duration of the pact. In exchange he can select one maneuver he qualifies for. This does not have to be a discipline he normally has access to but he still must meet all prerequistes of the maneuver . While bound to that vestige he can use that maneuver once every five rounds. It is treated as a supernatural ability regardless if the maneuver was originally one or not.

A few typos - "experiance" "manuvers" and "prerequistes".

I can see the not normally have access to bit as doing some interesting things- I'd be worried that a campaign using a lot of homebrew martial disciplines might make this power substantially more useful, so there's a bit of campaign dependence sliding scale of power here. But I doubt it would be a problem in most campaigns, and it isn't like most martial maneuvers are that powerful. Since binding and martial maneuvers aren't really high in power this shouldn't be an issue.

One other thought: does knowing this maneuver count as being known for other purposes? For example, could I use such a maneuver to qualify for a feat or prestige class? Could I use such a maneuver to write a martial script? These should probably be clarified.

Other comments: I like Martial Apotheosis. The idea of getting back vestige ability uses when one gets back martial maneuvers is really neat. I wonder if it should also work with any other abilities that give back all maneuvers since there are some things out there (albeit I think either homebrew or Pathfinder) which give back all maneuvers.

Overall, I really like this class, both the theme and the general mechanics. Seems mostly balanced and not too overpowered while doing a really good job of using the mechanics of both ToB and pact magic.

Ya I pumped out this class when I got the inspiration so the wording and spelling could use some work.

Actually the first bit I was missing the rest of that sentence. But I fixed that and the rest of the typo and spelling mistakes I could find.

I actually dislike how most martial prc's function. Mostly because it removes them from any homebrew school disciplines, I tried to make the PRC open to as many homebrew martial classes as possible in that way.

Hm the pool for influence points is a bit low you are right. I think I can switch that a bit more. Probably 3+ Cha mod.

I had actually thought of the recovering maneuver option for influence points but it ran into 2 issues IMO. 1) The flavor seems a bit weird. Your vestige is helping you... do what exactly? I guess it could be fluffed as a surge of stamina but since the vestige doesn't know the maneuver I wasn't sure why they could refresh maneuvers at all. 2) White Raven Tactics. I was too concerned with this one maneuver being looped nigh infinitely.


For Martial Lore from the Void it is supposed to count for the purposes of other things such as qualifying for other maneuvers. I hadn't thought about using it to qualify for feats and prc's though. Probably going to add a clause for only allowing it to qualify for the purpose of learning other maneuvers gained from Martial Lore from the Void.

The extra discipline issue I was also hedging back and forth but I kept it in because 1) It really does fit with the whole gamestyle of binders where they swap their options everyday and 2) It's actually pretty hard to grab high end maneuvers from multiple schools due to needing to have previous maneuvers from that school. In addition, a lot of schools require skill checks for particular skills which the Vestige Knight probably doesn't have. It's certainly a power boost but as you noted most maneuvers aren't particularly powerful.

Also I think I changed Martial Apotheosis to do just as you recommended as you were replying XD. It now functions for any recovering method that recovers multiple maneuvers at once such as Crusader or Warblade.

Thanks for the feedback! I do like how the class came out. Still not a particular fan of the name though...

[The Kool]

True Mystic: The idea is interesting. I'd like it more if it had more class features (maybe a bonus to knowledge(arcana) and knowledge(religion) checks?). I have a slight balance concern in that a wizard/archivist is already pretty powerful when they go into mystic theurge and this bumps that up even higher. That said, in most circumstances, that's still slightly weaker than a slightly optimized wizard, so there's probably no issue there.

I honestly did this weeks ago and haven't thought about it or looked at it since. It could probably use some polishing, but the idea was that the class is like MT but more specialized. I'm aware you could cap off the character with levels in MT after this though, which would be a streamlined way to get double 9s. I recall that something I was curious about though was someone who multiclassed into more spellcasting classes, because I think I worded things such that the abilities apply to all spellcasting classes, not just the two used to enter... What would it be like if you mixed Favored Soul and Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation? I'm genuinely curious.

[Silva Stormrage]

I honestly did this weeks ago and haven't thought about it or looked at it since. It could probably use some polishing, but the idea was that the class is like MT but more specialized. I'm aware you could cap off the character with levels in MT after this though, which would be a streamlined way to get double 9s. I recall that something I was curious about though was someone who multiclassed into more spellcasting classes, because I think I worded things such that the abilities apply to all spellcasting classes, not just the two used to enter... What would it be like if you mixed Favored Soul and Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation? I'm genuinely curious.

One thing I noted when I read the Mystic was that the Mystic's Advanced Learning can be used to pick up things like Trapsmith's level 1 haste or Disciple of Thryn's 4th level Summon Giants. I frankly would add a clause that if the spell exists on the Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/Cleric list it uses that spell level by default.

[Lanth Sor]

So I'm Mechanically done, but need polishing. Please Peach.

[JoshuaZ]

I had actually thought of the recovering maneuver option for influence points but it ran into 2 issues IMO. 1) The flavor seems a bit weird. Your vestige is helping you... do what exactly? I guess it could be fluffed as a surge of stamina but since the vestige doesn't know the maneuver I wasn't sure why they could refresh maneuvers at all. 2) White Raven Tactics. I was too concerned with this one maneuver being looped nigh infinitely.

Is it that easy to get that many influence points to actually spam it? If say it is maneuver level influence points to recover a maneuver then one would need three influence points to recover it. That seems unlikely to be something one can frequently do in a battle.



Still not a particular fan of the name though...

Well, if I didn't already have a Goetic Collectivist, I'd suggest Goetic Knight. Hmm, what about Blade Vessel? That helps emphasize how one is letting the vestiges have extra influence/experience?

And now, to avoid double posting I'm going to comment here on Lanth Sor's entry (I wouldn't mind though if someone would do a bit of PEACHing to my entry too while were at it.)


The master adds their caster level to their initiator level. Additionally they add their initiator level to their caster level. This cannot increase their initiator level and caster level cannot benefit from this more then once.

I'm not sure what the second sentence is supposed to say. There appear to be some words missing. I'm guessing it is "This cannot increase their initiator level or caster level beyond their hit die". Is that the intended wording?


These directly advance your prior classes used to qualify for the class's spell casting/initiating progression as if they had gained a level in the respective classes.

Is this intended to advance just the things that are normally advanced by a PrC or this intended to advance all class features? If so, I can see some definite potential for tricks here similar to Legacy Champion tricks work. If this is intended that way, I'm a little concerned about balance issues (but not by that much given that each is only every other level).

The prerequisites are also a bit high. Is there a reason you require 6th level spells and not a lower level?

[Silva Stormrage]

And now, to avoid double posting I'm going to comment here on Lanth Sor's entry (I wouldn't mind though if someone would do a bit of PEACHing to my entry too while were at it.)



Sure I can do that.

I like how you handled Mindbending, that was a good way to add more vestiges for the binder (They really do need it), but also helped out those lower level vestiges, some of which are fairly cool (Naebarius, Malphas, etc) but don't get used as much later levels.

Draw Forth Their Power is a cool mechanic but it has problems with the one overpowered vestige that kinda ruins it for all the others, Zceryll. With this and the psionic meditation feat you could spam summon monster every round forever. Which while not utterly game breaking is also going to be stronger than any other option the character is going to have. I would recommend you adding a limit on it so that it can only be used on a particular granted ability 1/encounter.



Vestigial Knowledge (ex): At fifth level, a Collectivist learns to gain some amount of psionic knowledge and power from the vestiges they have bound. Whenever the Collectivist is bound to that Vestige, they gain the corresponding either feat or psionic power known as detailed below. If the vestige grants a feat, the Collectivist does not need to meet any prerequisites for that feat. If the vestige grants a power, then the Collectivist is unable to use that power unless they can manifest a power of at least that level. The power or feat only remains when they are bound to that vestige. Powers gained this way cannot be transferred via abilities like Psychic Chirurgery, since the Collectivist does not truly know the power in full detail.


I assume the bolded section is mistyped unless an "Either feat" is something I am just unaware of :smallwink: Does the feat have to be psionic? Also red flag warning on not having to meet the prereqs of the feat. That leads to stuff like grabbing epic feats like epic leadership or Improved Metapsionics. Is there a reason you wanted them to ignore pre-reqs? ***Edit: Oh it's a specific feat. You might want to make that clearer in this section because on first read through I thought they picked a power or feat.

One thing which may be a problem or not as I am not sure if this is intended, is that the wording of the italicized section is similar to the way Ardents can learn really high level powers at lower levels. "Being able to manifest a power of that level" can be pretty easily read as "Can spend enough PP's to manifest a power of that level" not "The maximum level of power that the character can manifest is equal to or greater the level of the selected power". Ardents still don't have a maximum power known section on their table so they are always weird to handle in this sort of edge case.



Second, the Collectivist add any levels in binder or any levels in any non-psionic binding advancing class to their effective manifester level for any manifesting class for penetrating power resistance and for the maximum augment they may augment powers. Neither of these additions may push the Collectivist's effective manifester or binder level above their character level.


Is the bolded section necessary? Why not just increase their manifester level? It seems a bit odd for the increase in manifester level not to boost things like the range of the power or similar aspects.


For abilities granted by specific vestige.

Chupoclops has a typo, "Vestigial Knowledge: Either ethereal jaunt and psionic etherealness." I am not sure how it can be Either ethereal jaunt AND psionic etherealness. It's either one or the other or both :smallwink:

Naberius has a typo, "Mastery: When the Collectivist use any healing power." Should be "uses".


No real complaints or comments on the various abilities they gain. Most of the abilities seem fairly weak but you do get quite a lot of them and I haven't thought through of all the combos and stacking potential. I did see a lot of ways to beat SR though.


Overall I liked the class quite a bit and it was quite flavorful. It overall seems quite well balanced beyond a few minor issues mostly involving that one problem with Zceryll. One thing I will note is that the class gives a LOT of small minor bonuses that depend on your vestiges and choices for the day. It could get tedious keeping track of what tiny bonuses you get for 8 different vestiges that could change daily.

[Lanth Sor]

I'm not sure what the second sentence is supposed to say. There appear to be some words missing. I'm guessing it is "This cannot increase their initiator level or caster level beyond their hit die". Is that the intended wording?
Your suppose to add the two together, but i was trying to iterate that even though your adding them to each other you only do that once to avoid any infinite loops. I think I fixed it.



Is this intended to advance just the things that are normally advanced by a PrC or this intended to advance all class features? If so, I can see some definite potential for tricks here similar to Legacy Champion tricks work. If this is intended that way, I'm a little concerned about balance issues (but not by that much given that each is only every other level).
Just spell casting/initiating is suppose to advance.




The prerequisites are also a bit high. Is there a reason you require 6th level spells and not a lower level?
Honestly this is because one of the class features is a 9th level spell and the class cannot get 9th level spells unless it already has 6th level spells
The ability is true creation that makes an Blood War Iron

[JoshuaZ]

I like how you handled Mindbending, that was a good way to add more vestiges for the binder (They really do need it), but also helped out those lower level vestiges, some of which are fairly cool (Naebarius, Malphas, etc) but don't get used as much later levels.

Thanks!



Draw Forth Their Power is a cool mechanic but it has problems with the one overpowered vestige that kinda ruins it for all the others, Zceryll. With this and the psionic meditation feat you could spam summon monster every round forever. Which while not utterly game breaking is also going to be stronger than any other option the character is going to have. I would recommend you adding a limit on it so that it can only be used on a particular granted ability 1/encounter.

Hmm, I'm not sure how much I should deal with a single slightly broken vestige, but that seems like a reasonable way of handling it. Change made accordingly.




I assume the bolded section is mistyped unless an "Either feat" is something I am just unaware of :smallwink: Does the feat have to be psionic? Also red flag warning on not having to meet the prereqs of the feat. That leads to stuff like grabbing epic feats like epic leadership or Improved Metapsionics. Is there a reason you wanted them to ignore pre-reqs? ***Edit: Oh it's a specific feat. You might want to make that clearer in this section because on first read through I thought they picked a power or feat.

Clarified wording.



One thing which may be a problem or not as I am not sure if this is intended, is that the wording of the italicized section is similar to the way Ardents can learn really high level powers at lower levels. "Being able to manifest a power of that level" can be pretty easily read as "Can spend enough PP's to manifest a power of that level" not "The maximum level of power that the character can manifest is equal to or greater the level of the selected power". Ardents still don't have a maximum power known section on their table so they are always weird to handle in this sort of edge case.

Added some wording to handle that. Let me know if that's clear enough.





Is the bolded section necessary? Why not just increase their manifester level? It seems a bit odd for the increase in manifester level not to boost things like the range of the power or similar aspects.

I was concerned that the power level would be too high otherwise since one is also getting a massive ability to change around what powers one has daily, and gets lots of extra vestiges on top of that. But if you don't think it is an issue I'll delete it.


For abilities granted by specific vestige.


Chupoclops has a typo, "Vestigial Knowledge: Either ethereal jaunt and psionic etherealness." I am not sure how it can be Either ethereal jaunt AND psionic etherealness. It's either one or the other or both :smallwink:

Fixed thanks.



Naberius has a typo, "Mastery: When the Collectivist use any healing power." Should be "uses".

Yep.



No real complaints or comments on the various abilities they gain. Most of the abilities seem fairly weak but you do get quite a lot of them and I haven't thought through of all the combos and stacking potential. I did see a lot of ways to beat SR though.

Yeah, I tried to make most of the SR beating abilities not easily overlap. For example, Zagan's bonus is just if they are snake related, and Abysm's is for psionic beings. If one is fighting a psionic yuan-ti that could be useful, but that's pretty situational. Similarly, Ashardalon's is for fire powers only, and that's pretty situational especially given at high levels (where one would be able to bind Ashardalon), fire immunity or heavy fire resistance isn't uncommon. Focalor gives its bonus for electricity, but if someone has some clever way to make a psionic power which has both electricity and fire descriptors and they want it to be really good at penetrating power resistance, that's probably ok.

One concern I had with these is that it may be just not that *interesting*. If one has any suggestions for things that some of them could do instead of straight bonuses or in addition to, I'd be happy to use them.



Overall I liked the class quite a bit and it was quite flavorful. It overall seems quite well balanced beyond a few minor issues mostly involving that one problem with Zceryll. One thing I will note is that the class gives a LOT of small minor bonuses that depend on your vestiges and choices for the day. It could get tedious keeping track of what tiny bonuses you get for 8 different vestiges that could change daily.

Yeah, it could definitely be an issue. I think that if one is playing a binder, one already has some of that issue. When I've played a binder before I had two different sets of vestiges I kept, one was my "combat/adventuring" set and the other was my "social" set and I'd tweak those a little bit, but that worked well. One reason I made the Mindbinding work the way it does is so for someone doesn't want to be keeping track of many vestiges they can just use it to keep one extra vestige whose level is limited.

I considered having a class feature which would make it really easy to pay power points to change vestiges and the three reasons I didn't was that a) I couldn't find good fluff for it b) It would potentially cause games to come to a crawl as the player figured out how they want to reshuffle vestiges and c) With the extra powers from vestiges it would risk making the class functionally Tier Zero. So, I guess the comment here that is the issue of keeping track of a lot of vestiges could have been worse.

[Silva Stormrage]

The voting thread says this: "Voting starts now and will continue until April 3rd, 2019". I imagine the voting deadline isn't in the past :smalltongue: I imagine this is just a copy paste issue, could you update it with this tournament's voting deadline?

[JoshuaZ]

The voting thread says this: "Voting starts now and will continue until April 3rd, 2019". I imagine the voting deadline isn't in the past :smalltongue: I imagine this is just a copy paste issue, could you update it with this tournament's voting deadline?

Yep! Fixed! Sorry about that.

Also, we should maybe start discussing what the next theme will be. Everyone is of course welcome to make proposals. Proposals from me (some of these are ones we've discussed before as possibilities).

"Swords and sorcery"- for gishes.


"Light is not necessarily good. Darkness is not necessarily evil."

"Against the Gods"

"Forbidden knowledge"

"Mage on a Plane" Each entry must be new minor plane and an associated PrC (they don't have to be mages per se, but I thought the name sounded fun).

"Your Power is What?" - Make a prc that involves using something that sounds like a weak or unimpressive ability and make it turn out to be impressive.

A few which have broad themes which aren't as narrowly defined but sound neat enough:

"Metal and Wood"


"Nature or nurture"

"Fate or free will"

"Brains and brawn"

"The hunter and the hunted"

"Martyrs and murderers"