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Westhart
2017-10-15, 08:52 AM
So, looking around, I was kind of sad to see we had a base class contest, Oblivimancer's Speakeasy (think that's the name) contest (which allows up to 3 level PrC's) but no prestige class contest... So yeah, I intend on doing prestige classes, which can be anywhere from 5-10 levels. So... (I suck at setting stuff like this up :smallbiggrin:) anyone wants to, and if so cast a vote for our next topic, or if you want me to start it and begin voting on topics after that we can start with
It's the Little Things...

Also, what would be a good time limit? Once per month, every 2 weeks? Just wondering, (totally has nothing to do with the fact that I am OCD as hell :smallbiggrin:

So, would anyone be interested (If my dragging on ramble hasn't frightened you off :smallwink:)?

A sample PrC template can be found here (for PrC's that don't advance spellcasting). (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22485380&postcount=20)
Here's One that Does. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22485397&postcount=21)


1) Only one entry may be submitted by any given brewer (the entry may include several things, but they must be part of the same cohesive entry)

2) Entries must be your own work, and must not be copied for other places. Only new work may submitted; no previously posted work will be accepted. Such entries will be disqualified. Such entries will be disqualified.

3) No reserving posts. Feel free to tweak your class, but the initial post must include the basics.

4) Your work must be finished, unfinished submissions will be disqualified.

5) Entry must be a prestige class with 5-10 levels, and must be for 3.X edition of Dungeons and Dragons

6) Entry must be related to the theme.





In Darkness they Lie
Creepy Crawlies
Annie my Oaklies (Weapon Specialization)
"Light is not necessarily good, dark is not necessarily evil"
"Specialization"
"Words"
"For whom the bell tolls" (the idea being music themed PrCs)
"Against the gods"
"Fate verse free will"
"Salvation and damnation"



Old Submission Threads:


It's The Little Things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?539465-Prestige-Class-Contest-I-3-X-It-s-the-Little-Things-Submission-Thread)


Old Voting Threads:


It's The Little Things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542648-Pretige-Class-Contest-Voting-Thread-The-Little-Things&p=22630792)

Aniikinis
2017-10-15, 09:41 AM
I'd be happy to do this, I guess. I need more practice designing prestige classes (and classes in general...).

Westhart
2017-10-15, 10:03 AM
I'd be happy to do this, I guess. I need more practice designing prestige classes (and classes in general...).

Welp, we got one :smallbiggrin:
So, any topics you would like to see?

Aniikinis
2017-10-15, 10:08 AM
So, any topics you would like to see?

None off the top of my head, I guess. Maybe aberration or far realms focused PrCs, vermin PrCs, possibly racial paragons and maybe weapon-specific PrCs that enhance the weapon in question through the levels(adding properties, enhancements, enchantments, etc.)

Westhart
2017-10-15, 10:14 AM
None off the top of my head, I guess. Maybe aberration or far realms focused PrCs, vermin PrCs, possibly racial paragons and maybe weapon-specific PrCs that enhance the weapon in question through the levels(adding properties, enhancements, enchantments, etc.)

Ooh, you just gave me an idea if we do a weapon one, although I would make it wider, like PrC's dealing with magic items specifically... no idea what I would call the contest though... Vermin and abberation-y titles have been added to my ideas spoiler :smallsmile:

Aniikinis
2017-10-15, 10:18 AM
Ooh, you just gave me an idea if we do a weapon one, although I would make it wider, like PrC's dealing with magic items specifically... no idea what I would call the contest though... Vermin and abberation-y titles have been added to my ideas spoiler :smallsmile:

That's a good idea, honestly. I was more thinking of a khopesh wielder that gains more power and tricks to use with the khopesh. Sort of like this class focused around the whip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253906-Wounded-Viper-(PF)&p=13805550#post13805550).

Westhart
2017-10-15, 10:21 AM
That's a good idea, honestly. I was more thinking of a khopesh wielder that gains more power and tricks to use with the khopesh. Sort of like this class focused around the whip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253906-Wounded-Viper-(PF)&p=13805550#post13805550).

If we did that it would definitely fall under the heading... How about "This is my Rifle" ... although now that I think about it Marine boot camp is so ****ed up...

Aniikinis
2017-10-15, 10:37 AM
If we did that it would definitely fall under the heading... How about "This is my Rifle" ... although now that I think about it Marine boot camp is so ****ed up...
Very true... How about "Sword Tricks and Show Offs"?

Westhart
2017-10-15, 10:39 AM
Very true... How about "Sword Tricks and Show Offs"?

Yeah, that sounds better, but kind of lengthy... something short... but sweet... hmm....

Aniikinis
2017-10-15, 10:46 AM
Yeah, that sounds better, but kind of lengthy... something short... but sweet... hmm....

"Annie my Oaklies"?

Westhart
2017-10-15, 10:50 AM
"Annie my Oaklies"?

Hmm, I like it :smallsmile:

neriractor
2017-10-15, 02:43 PM
I would be interested in this.

Westhart
2017-10-15, 09:03 PM
I would be interested in this.

alright, if I can get two more people I'll run them... Otherwise 1-3 places is kind of lame with... 3 people :smalltongue:

Zale
2017-10-15, 11:46 PM
I'm interested in this, if only because Prestige Classes are somewhat less arduous for me.

I do think that Far Realms is somewhat overdone, but that's probably just some homebrew games I've been in speaking.

Temotei
2017-10-16, 03:07 AM
ErrantX used to run the prestige class contests around here. Techwarrior ran a few for a while as well at the end.

The old prestige class contests ran for about a month. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12542705&postcount=1) is just one of the many first posts in that series, for reference. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18990768&postcount=2)'s a more recent second post, which is just a template.

I'm interested in this, so count me in if I get inspired.

Westhart
2017-10-16, 06:30 AM
I'm interested in this, if only because Prestige Classes are somewhat less arduous for me.

I do think that Far Realms is somewhat overdone, but that's probably just some homebrew games I've been in speaking.


ErrantX used to run the prestige class contests around here. Techwarrior ran a few for a while as well at the end.

The old prestige class contests ran for about a month. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12542705&postcount=1) is just one of the many first posts in that series, for reference. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18990768&postcount=2)'s a more recent second post, which is just a template.

I'm interested in this, so count me in if I get inspired.

Awesome, Count it as on... Anybody have a preferred topic?if not we're going with the one on the OP, but I'd put ti up to a vote preferably.

Aniikinis
2017-10-16, 10:35 AM
I'm fine with the topic in the OP, tempted to make a rogue PrC that gives you the ability to shrink size classes but leave the rest of your abilities alone and have your weapons deal damage as though they were normal sized.

Westhart
2017-10-16, 10:40 AM
I'm fine with the topic in the OP, tempted to make a rogue PrC that gives you the ability to shrink size classes but leave the rest of your abilities alone and have your weapons deal damage as though they were normal sized.

Alright, hmm I'll let everyone vote on topics 'til the 20th... is 4 days long enough for topic voting (not actual creation)?

Westhart
2017-10-17, 09:39 AM
Alright, hmm I'll let everyone vote on topics 'til the 20th... is 4 days long enough for topic voting (not actual creation)?

Well, I was thinking... Nobody is voting for another topic so why not start it tomorrow?

Westhart
2017-10-17, 09:44 AM
Basic Sample Prestige Class Template.

PRESTIGE CLASS NAME

http://Picture URL

Quote of Some Kind by a member of the class!

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
:
:
:
:
:

Class Skills
The Class Name's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....
Skills Points at Each Level: x + int

Hit Dice: dx



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st

+X

+X

+X

+X
Class Ability



2nd

+X

+X

+X

+X
Class Ability



3rd

+X

+X

+X

+X
Class Ability



4th

+X

+X

+X

+X
Class Ability



5th

+X

+X

+X

+X
Class Ability



6th

+X

+X

+X

+X
Class Ability



7th

+X

+X

+X

+X
Class Ability



8th

+X

+X

+X

+X
Class Ability



9th

+X

+X

+X

+X
Class Ability



10th

+X

+X

+X

+X
Class Ability



Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A place to put the different proficiencies.
Put all the different class abilities in here!

Westhart
2017-10-17, 09:52 AM
Basic Sample Prestige Class Template, advances preexisting spell casting.

PRESTIGE CLASS NAME

http://Picture URL

Quote of Some Kind by a member of the class!

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
:
:
:
:
:

Class Skills
The Class Name's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....
Skills Points at Each Level: x + int

Hit Dice: dx



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Spells per Day/Spells Known


1st
+X
+X
+X
+X
Class Ability



2nd
+X
+X
+X
+X
Class Ability



3rd
+X
+X
+X
+X
Class Ability



4th
+X
+X
+X
+X
Class Ability



5th
+X
+X
+X
+X
Class Ability



6th
+X
+X
+X
+X
Class Ability



7th
+X
+X
+X
+X
Class Ability



8th
+X
+X
+X
+X
Class Ability



9th
+X
+X
+X
+X
Class Ability



10th
+x
+X
+X
+X
Class Ability




Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A place to put the different proficiencies.
Put all the different class abilities in here!

Aniikinis
2017-10-17, 12:47 PM
(Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssscrubbed)

Westhart
2017-10-17, 02:04 PM
We were supposed to wait tomorrow, and I am supposed to make a submission thread XD

Oh well, here's the submission thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?539465-Prestige-Class-Contest-I-3-X-It-s-the-Little-Things-Submission-Thread&p=22486197#post22486197). Ani please move it over there when you get the chance.

Aniikinis
2017-10-17, 02:07 PM
Oop sorry ;p

Westhart
2017-10-17, 02:08 PM
Oop sorry ;p

Meh, it is a day earlier then expected, but it is a whole month, so I think it should work out fine (and if it really comes down to it I can throw out an extra week on the deadline.

Baby Gary
2017-10-17, 06:29 PM
I think that I will try my luck at making a PrC, I never have, but there is a first for everything

Baby Gary
2017-10-17, 06:31 PM
one quick thing, prestidigitation is rather complex and is a cantrip

Westhart
2017-10-17, 07:34 PM
I think that I will try my luck at making a PrC, I never have, but there is a first for everything
Love to see what you enter.

one quick thing, prestidigitation is rather complex and is a cantrip

Yeah? I consider 4th or under to be the little spells, although OMV. If you want to build a class around cantrips go ahead (hell, I am building a caster PrC that sacrifices the rest of her spells for rather powerful abilities... that affect her 0-4th levels.

Morphic tide
2017-10-17, 07:50 PM
Oh, boy. Little Things is the theme? The Wasp is really simple... Basically the core function of Rogue with a size reduction ability on top. Not that that's all that bad, but I started churning ideas of considerably higher complexity... basically instantly. Book of Vile Darkness derived casting progression shenanigans, minor magic item mass production, low-level spell focus, undersized grappling expert... I could expand these into outright twenty level base classes, if I wanted, but kinda prefer the simplicity of PRC design. You don't need it to cover a wide stretch of the game with the abilities, but can instead tie those abilities into pre-existing ones to offload most of the versatility onto the base class.

I suppose I'll work on the first outline of the Hive Mind based PRC. Because Vermin Lord is too abusable, thanks to the rules it gives access too, and I hate the pile of concepts they made Evil-only in BoVD. Now, do I want 1/2 or 1/3 casting per "integrated" Swarm HD...

Westhart
2017-10-17, 08:03 PM
Hey, are we allowed (should I allow it?) to PEACH other works while this is going on, that is one of the things I was never clear on with the contests...

Westhart
2017-10-17, 08:26 PM
Phwew, Hedge Mage is harder then I expected... Working out a mechanic that will allow them to still counterspell (since they only get 0-4th.)

I assumed PEACH-ing was fine.

Hey Ani, hope you don't mind but I had a few ideas for your PrC you could add on... or not at your preference

just an idea, but what about an enhanced bonus to strength and movement speed when you shrink (think ant man style) So say, 3rd you ignore the strength penalty from it, and gain a competence bonus on checks equal to your X. At 6th level you add X/X of your level as an __ Bonus to strength, and at 9th ?

You could also give them the ability to ignore crit/SA immunity when they are small (finding that perfect spot, however you want to fluff it.

Also, I would give them the ability to SA any enemy they are occupying a space with (think ant man going super small and just wrecking shop), after all you will lose reach and what not as you shrink...

As is it is kind of static, you want to put some juicy bits in there, besides "you can go smaller". I would suggest adding a capstone, and not requiring trap sense... most rogues trade it away.

EDIT: I would change the skill points to 8+int, keeping with the rogue.



Oh, boy. Little Things is the theme? The Wasp is really simple... Basically the core function of Rogue with a size reduction ability on top. Not that that's all that bad, but I started churning ideas of considerably higher complexity... basically instantly. Book of Vile Darkness derived casting progression shenanigans, minor magic item mass production, low-level spell focus, undersized grappling expert... I could expand these into outright twenty level base classes, if I wanted, but kinda prefer the simplicity of PRC design. You don't need it to cover a wide stretch of the game with the abilities, but can instead tie those abilities into pre-existing ones to offload most of the versatility onto the base class.

I suppose I'll work on the first outline of the Hive Mind based PRC. Because Vermin Lord is too abusable, thanks to the rules it gives access too, and I hate the pile of concepts they made Evil-only in BoVD. Now, do I want 1/2 or 1/3 casting per "integrated" Swarm HD...

Yeah, some of the things in BoVD were annoying, but then so was ancestral relic in BoED, after all why can't I have an evil aligned family heirloom? :smallcool:. Your class sounds interesting, good luck!

Baby Gary
2017-10-17, 08:50 PM
there I am done with mine

for those wondering how it fits the theme you start out stealing little stuff, then...

also this is the first homebrew thing that I have ever done, so please excuse any bad wording.

P.S. do you think mine it too powerful?

Baby Gary
2017-10-17, 08:51 PM
Love to see what you enter.

well you can go see now, I have been working straight from when I said that I would like to try my luck

Westhart
2017-10-17, 09:07 PM
there I am done with mine

for those wondering how it fits the theme you start out stealing little stuff, then...

also this is the first homebrew thing that I have ever done, so please excuse any bad wording.

P.S. do you think mine it too powerful?

Well, here is my 2 cp

peerless pickpocket: I would make this level*2 and a competence bonus.

I like this: I would rephrase it to say he can replace a umd check with a sleight of hand. ig he fails he must wait until he gains another rank in sleight of hand until he can try again (or just use the penalties (if any) of UMD)

easy casting: o would just say light armors for the first one, and give a different ability for the next.

they never saw it coming & nohing is sage: these are great.

arcane lifting: I would cut this down to the spell level x2 (x3 if illusion)

I also rewrote they never saw it coming so it would be easier to read:

They Never See it Coming (Ex): When you use sleight of hand your opponent does not counter wit a spot check, instead they use a slight of hand check.

Note: Baby Gary and Ani, you both forgot ex, su, sp tags for you class abilities.
If you need advice for the tags use the below link
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Special_Abilities_Overview

Baby Gary
2017-10-17, 09:14 PM
Well, here is my 2 cp

peerless pickpocket: I would make this level*2 and a competence bonus.

I like this: I would rephrase it to say he can replace a umd check with a sleight of hand. ig he fails he must wait until he gains another rank in sleight of hand until he can try again (or just use the penalties (if any) of UMD)

easy casting: o would just say light armors for the first one, and give a different ability for the next.

they never saw it coming & nohing is sage: these are great.

arcane lifting: I would cut this down to the spell level x2 (x3 if illusion)

I also rewrote they never saw it coming so it would be easier to read:

They Never See it Coming (Ex): When you use sleight of hand your opponent does not counter wit a spot check, instead they use a slight of hand check.

Note: Baby Gary and Ani, you both forgot ex, su, sp tags for you class abilities.
If you need advice for the tags use the below link
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Special_Abilities_Overview

thanks! I meant to change the multiplier for peerless pickpocket and for Arcane Lifting, I just forgot about it.

Coretron03
2017-10-18, 06:26 AM
Is it too late for me to join this competition? I have a pretty cool idea in mind for a Reduce person based Caster prc, though I woulds like to know if the comp is still open before I do anything more concrete.

Westhart
2017-10-18, 06:31 AM
thanks! I meant to change the multiplier for peerless pickpocket and for Arcane Lifting, I just forgot about it.
No problem, happy to help :smallsmile:

Is it too late for me to join this competition? I have a pretty cool idea in mind for a Reduce person based Caster prc, though I woulds like to know if the comp is still open before I do anything more concrete.

The contest does not end till next month, (17th) so yeah plenty of time to enter. Good luck with your entry!

My entry will be delayed somewhat (was going to post it tomorrow, but you all will have to wait until next week, as my SD card I had it on literally melted :smallannoyed::smallfurious:

Oh well.

Aniikinis
2017-10-18, 08:02 AM
Whoop, finally home and getting onto the computer (work was exhausting...)


Hey Ani, hope you don't mind but I had a few ideas for your PrC you could add on... or not at your preference
I'd love to hear them, I honestly didn't think much about it besides: Little thief = Best thief :thog:


Just an idea, but what about an enhanced bonus to strength and movement speed when you shrink (think ant man style) So say, 3rd you ignore the strength penalty from it, and gain a competence bonus on checks equal to your X. At 6th level you add X/X of your level as an __ Bonus to strength, and at 9th ?
...How the heck did ant man not cross my mind? I watched that movie not to long ago to boot. Yeah that sounds like a good idea. They already keep their normal movement so I can imagine that they'd get a stacking bonus to movement similar to the monk's or barbarbarian's that works with all forms of movement. EDIT: They already ignore the reduction to their strength score, but probably should get the bonus to dex...


You could also give them the ability to ignore crit/SA immunity when they are small (finding that perfect spot, however you want to fluff it.)
Funny, that makes complete sense but it never crossed my mind. Maybe also give the ability to treat all melee attacks as touch attacks when below a certain size due to Shadow of the Colossus-style hijinks?


Also, I would give them the ability to SA any enemy they are occupying a space with (think ant man going super small and just wrecking shop), after all you will lose reach and what not as you shrink...
Huh, that makes a good amount of sense and I was tempted to just give them their reach as normal but felt that was too cheesy.


As is it is kind of static, you want to put some juicy bits in there, besides "you can go smaller". I would suggest adding a capstone, and not requiring trap sense... most rogues trade it away.
Good point, also I've always kept trap sense when playing a rogue. Not sure why, but I just like the idea behind it even if it's not too good mechanically.


EDIT: I would change the skill points to 8+int, keeping with the rogue.
Forgot that rogues were 8+int skills, thought they were 6 and didn't even bother to check. :smallredface:

Westhart
2017-10-18, 08:24 AM
Whoop, finally home and getting onto the computer (work was exhausting...)


I'd love to hear them, I honestly didn't think much about it besides: Little thief = Best thief :thog:


...How the heck did ant man not cross my mind? I watched that movie not to long ago to boot. Yeah that sounds like a good idea. They already keep their normal movement so I can imagine that they'd get a stacking bonus to movement similar to the monk's or barbarbarian's that works with all forms of movement.


Funny, that makes complete sense but it never crossed my mind. Maybe also give the ability to treat all melee attacks as touch attacks when below a certain size due to Shadow of the Colossus-style hijinks?

That would be pretty powerful, I would make an ability that lets you do that or sneak attack, so you can't SA and touch, but it is your class :P



Huh, that makes a good amount of sense and I was tempted to just give them their reach as normal but felt that was too cheesy.


Good point, also I've always kept trap sense when playing a rogue. Not sure why, but I just like the idea behind it even if it's not too good mechanically.

You can trade trap sense to ignore (partially; 1/2) SA immunity. the idea? I'll agree it is interesting, but in execution? Doesn't work so well.

Aniikinis
2017-10-18, 08:33 AM
That would be pretty powerful, I would make an ability that lets you do that or sneak attack, so you can't SA and touch, but it is your class :P
Gonna add them as two separate abilities that can't be used together normally, with the capstone allowing them to be added together. Also, Wasps already don't take the penalty to strength, but they don't get the bonus to dex though.


You can trade trap sense to ignore (partially; 1/2) SA immunity. the idea? I'll agree it is interesting, but in execution? Doesn't work so well.
Very true.

Westhart
2017-10-18, 08:42 AM
Also, Wasps already don't take the penalty to strength, but they don't get the bonus to dex though.

My bad :smallredface:

Aniikinis
2017-10-18, 08:43 AM
My bad :smallredface:

It's alright, I've modified the ability so that they do get the bonuses to dexterity, I should have the new version ready to PEACH soon.

EDIT: The New version is up and ready to be PEACHed

Westhart
2017-10-18, 09:59 AM
Phwew, slammed out my Hedge Mage, going for t2 if not t1 power wise (And only 4th level casting too) :P

Westhart
2017-10-18, 10:17 AM
It's alright, I've modified the ability so that they do get the bonuses to dexterity, I should have the new version ready to PEACH soon.

EDIT: The New version is up and ready to be PEACHed

You asked for a peach, here goes:

Ant strength: Is the first strength bonus supposed to be active all the time or only while shifting down?
The strength bonuses on this are pretty high, at 9th level:
you have +4 (half level; you round down unless stated otherwise),+8 (shrink), and then whatever yo have from your dex mod for a total of 12+ (not to mention the +8 you have to dex while shrinking)
so let's assume an elf (they get dex bonus, and I hate playing human b/ it's always "oh they get a bonus feat, skill points; hell even 5e kept the feat, albeit as a variant ) with a starting dex of 18, and a 12 in str at 9 levels with this, and they are not using anything else to increase the scores So your dex is 28(+8 from shrink; so +9 modifier), and a str of 28 i think (+4 dex, +4 level, +8 shrink). Note this is w/out magic, with magic you could throw in an easy +6 on both as an enhancement, then get another +5 inherent... you see were this is going right?

I would remove where dex increases str (a +4 just there), and make the 1/2 level an inherent (thus if you took a theoretical "10th" level in epic it would cap nicely at +5) and the shrink an enhancement. You'll still get some high numbers but you won't be as high.

The Bigger they are: Looks nice

pinpoint+tiny terror: I would make this chosen at the beginning of each round, every attack allows more combat versatility (which is nice) but slows turns in combat

puny power: why are you even requiring a check? I mean 5/squares? it should multiply not divide by the number of squares between

Aniikinis
2017-10-18, 10:38 AM
Ant strength: Is the first strength bonus supposed to be active all the time or only while shifting down?
The strength bonuses on this are pretty high, at 9th level:
you have +4 (half level; you round down unless stated otherwise),+8 (shrink), and then whatever yo have from your dex mod for a total of 12+ (not to mention the +8 you have to dex while shrinking)
so let's assume an elf (they get dex bonus, and I hate playing human b/ it's always "oh they get a bonus feat, skill points; hell even 5e kept the feat, albeit as a variant ) with a starting dex of 18, and a 12 in str at 9 levels with this, and they are not using anything else to increase the scores So your dex is 28(+8 from shrink; so +9 modifier), and a str of 28 i think (+4 dex, +4 level, +8 shrink). Note this is w/out magic, with magic you could throw in an easy +6 on both as an enhancement, then get another +5 inherent... you see where this is going right?

I would remove where dex increases str (a +4 just there), and make the 1/2 level an inherent (thus if you took a theoretical "10th" level in epic it would cap nicely at +5) and the shrink an enhancement. You'll still get some high numbers but you won't be as high.
Only while shifting down and yes I do and will tone it down when I get back from work tomorrow, as of right now I'm too tired to fix it.


The Bigger they are: Looks nice
Awesome


pinpoint+tiny terror: I would make this chosen at the beginning of each round, every attack allows more combat versatility (which is nice) but slows turns in combat
Yeah, I was debating that myself honestly.


puny power: why are you even requiring a check? I mean 5/squares? it should multiply not divide by the number of squares between
The jump check is to make sure you even hit the guy you're aiming for. And it does multiply, or at least it's supposed to. The DC is... broken because I forgot to add the "10+" part in. Great... :smallsigh: The DC is supposed to be 10 + 5 for each square between the opponent you're currently on and the one you're aiming for.

Will fix that part right now.

Westhart
2017-10-18, 10:41 AM
Only while shifting down and yes I do and will tone it down when I get back from work tomorrow, as of right now I'm too tired to fix it.


Awesome


Yeah, I was debating that myself honestly.


The jump check is to make sure you even hit the guy you're aiming for. And it does multiply, or at least it's supposed to. The DC is... broken because I forgot to add the "10+" part in. Great... :smallsigh: The DC is supposed to be 10 + 5 for each square between the opponent you're currently on and the one you're aiming for.

Will fix that part right now.
They're only suggestions, in the end it is your class :smalltongue:

neriractor
2017-10-18, 10:56 AM
@nothingabnormal: the class is looking good*, just found a small detail: you forgot to add what metamagic twist does.

I still havenīt started work in mine but I already got the idea for it, going to make a spore related class, using them as a means of attack and defense not sure if itīll have any spellcasting tied to it but I think Iīll make it more mundane for now.

*this goes for everyone else too, Iīm seeing lots of great classes.

Westhart
2017-10-18, 11:02 AM
@nothingabnormal: the class is looking good*, just found a small detail: you forgot to add what metamagic twist does.

Thanks, I'll add the ability.
EDIT: added it.


I still havenīt started work in mine but I already got the idea for it, going to make a spore related class, using them as a means of attack and defense not sure if itīll have any spellcasting tied to it but I think Iīll make it more mundane for now.

Hmm, sounds good. Don't worry about not starting it, you have 'til the 17th and if it comes don to it I'll give an extra week or two.


*this goes for everyone else too, Iīm seeing lots of great classes.

Yeah, voting is going to be... hard :smallbiggrin:

Aniikinis
2017-10-18, 11:02 AM
They're only suggestions, in the end it is your class :smalltongue:

I know, I just don't want an insane amount of power even if it is reminiscent of Ant Man


the class is looking good*
*this goes for everyone else too, I'm seeing lots of great classes.
Danke schiene!


I still haven't started work in mine but I already got the idea for it, going to make a spore related class, using them as a means of attack and defense not sure if it'll have any spellcasting tied to it but I think Iīll make it more mundane for now.
I can't wait to see it.

Baby Gary
2017-10-18, 03:30 PM
with a quick skim over hedge mage I have a couple things that I would like to point out. One, you didn't list the class skills, two, you might want to say you can not cast spells 5th level or higher, you just said that you can't cast 5th level spells

Westhart
2017-10-18, 08:20 PM
with a quick skim over hedge mage I have a couple things that I would like to point out. One, you didn't list the class skills, two, you might want to say you can not cast spells 5th level or higher, you just said that you can't cast 5th level spells

Slams head against chair, I always forget skill list :smallannoyed:
Will fix it tomorrow :smallsigh:

Baby Gary
2017-10-18, 09:13 PM
mmmmm.... quick thing. wrong thread, the thread for submissions is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?539465-Prestige-Class-Contest-I-3-X-It-s-the-Little-Things-Submission-Thread&p=22487367#post22487367)

Aniikinis
2017-10-18, 09:13 PM
Core, wrong thread, use the submission thread for the posting.

EDIT: Whoop, ninja'd

Coretron03
2017-10-18, 09:31 PM
My bad, Posted it in the right thread.

Anyway, Please PEACH if you can, I don't do Homebrew too often and would like to get better at it. My main concern is is that I overtuned the Packed skin damage reduction.

Edit: looking over The Hedge Witch table I can't seen to find openminded on it, which also means the level that you get it isn't shown.

Westhart
2017-10-19, 07:15 AM
My bad, Posted it in the right thread.

Anyway, Please PEACH if you can, I don't do Homebrew too often and would like to get better at it. My main concern is is that I overtuned the Packed skin damage reduction.

Well, here goes:
1) You can get in a level earlier then most PrC's. Not a bad thing necessarily, but if you wanted to make it 5th make the skill ranks for knowledge and spellcraft to 8

2) Skills, you have some copy/paste cling on.

3) Personal adjustment: when you reduces someone's skim. Did you mean skin?

4) I would also rephrase personal adjustment (something like this, no changes, just easier to read): When you cast a reduce spell you can choose for it to also effect you.

5) Packed Skin: I would make this DR/- equal to your your class level, then within the capstone double it ( DR10/-) is not gonna do much at high levels. also Admantite should be Admantine

6) Faster. Smaller, Stronge: I would put the one's you can choose from either in a list or italicize the names (more of a readability thing)

7) Focused Effect: At higher levels can I quarter it? Make it single target? (To shrink even farther?)

The class looks nice!


Edit: looking over The Hedge Witch table I can't seen to find openminded on it, which also means the level that you get it isn't shown.
Add tables on to the list of things that are the bane of my life homebrew, that and skill lists ><
It'll be updated (looks around) uhm, sometime :smallbiggrin:

Aniikinis
2017-10-19, 07:17 AM
Alright, fixed the Ant Power class ability a little.
Assuming the elf from before, at level nine:
they have have +4 (half level; you round down unless stated otherwise),+4 (shrink), and then the +2 from dex equalling a +10 bonus to their strength score not including stat boosting items. However they would only be able to use the total of this bonus for up to 68 minutes per day (7.5 minutes per level at a 4 size category decrease), meaning that the bonus ranges from +7 to +10 based on how dire the situation and can only be used for slightly more than a quarter of the day at the very most before becoming relatively useless for the remainder of the time.

Westhart
2017-10-19, 07:19 AM
Alright, fixed the Ant Power class ability a little.
Assuming the elf from before, at level nine:
they have have +4 (half level; you round down unless stated otherwise),+4 (shrink), and then the +2 from dex equalling a +10 bonus to their strength score not including stat boosting items. However they would only be able to use the total of this bonus for up to 68 minutes per day (7.5 minutes per level at a 4 size category decrease), meaning that the bonus ranges from +7 to +10 based on how dire the situation and can only be used for slightly more than a quarter of the day at the very most before becoming relatively useless for the remainder of the time.

sounds good!

Baby Gary
2017-10-19, 07:50 AM
I just (well not just... it was last night) fixed up the things the NothingAbnormal pointed out. does anyone else have any criticisms or suggestions for this PrC?

Westhart
2017-10-19, 08:14 AM
I just (well not just... it was last night) fixed up the things the NothingAbnormal pointed out. does anyone else have any criticisms or suggestions for this PrC?

I'd give them something in that empty level, as it kinda hurts... They do not even get extra spells... Kind of a boring level if you are playing at low levels.

Baby Gary
2017-10-19, 08:41 AM
@Ani


Stinging Strike: At level 9, you may use Tiny Terror and Stinging Strikes together.

I think you meant Pinpoint Strike, not Stinging Strike

Aniikinis
2017-10-19, 09:06 AM
I think you meant Pinpoint Strike, not Stinging Strike

:smallredface: I did, thank you for noticing that when I was blind to it

Coretron03
2017-10-19, 10:59 PM
Well, here goes:
1) You can get in a level earlier then most PrC's. Not a bad thing necessarily, but if you wanted to make it 5th make the skill ranks for knowledge and spellcraft to 8.
2 levels earlier them normal actually (typically 6 level entry for most Prc's). I did it on purpose as it gives a nice progression that you can cast Mass reduce person as a third level spell as soon as you get thord level spell while still leaving 2 levels you can benefit from personal adjustment, as it loses quite a bit of it's appeal when you get mass reduce person.

2) Skills, you have some copy/paste cling on. Fixed that


3) Personal adjustment: when you reduces someone's skim. Did you mean skin? Meant skim, though i worded the sentence around it poorly. Should be clearer now.


4) I would also rephrase personal adjustment (something like this, no changes, just easier to read): When you cast a reduce spell you can choose for it to also effect you. Thats a better way to word it then what I had, except I added a bit that clarifies its a extra copy.


5) Packed Skin: I would make this DR/- equal to your your class level, then within the capstone double it ( DR10/-) is not gonna do much at high levels. also Admantite should be Admantine
Thats a better formula then the one I was using so i'll use it. Fixed the typo too. Made it so when you have a caster level of 13 (Which should be level 14 assuming no other boosts) the DR becomes DR/-.

6) Faster. Smaller, Stronge: I would put the one's you can choose from either in a list or italicize the names (more of a readability thing)
Added this


7) Focused Effect: At higher levels can I quarter it? Make it single target? (To shrink even farther?) You can now :smalltongue: (was considering making it +8 Dex -8 str and an additional category but being able to give a +12 to dex, +4 str, 10 DR permanently to 2 people at level 9 seems a bit extreme. I might decrease some of the other numbers because its still pretty high numbers


The class looks nice! Thanks!

I also added a new Faster, Smaller, Stronger ability, that creates 2 pills that act like a delayed shrink effect (While I wish I made the class use both enlarge and reduce person so I could make a better Blue-Or-Red-Pill joke :smalltongue:.

I'm also thinking of making the Prc 7 levels long, making the 5th level ability make Reduce spelllast 1 hour/level (Increasing Compacted speeds duration to 1 minute/level and Float like a Butterfly, Sting like a Bee 10 minutes/ level) and have Long range, moving back everlasting reduction to level 7 and add some sort of auto Heighten effect for using reduce spells, like maybe being able to heighten reduce spells to up to your highest level while using a slot equal to Heighted spell level-1 for level 6.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback!

sengmeng
2017-10-19, 11:38 PM
Hi all! I think I'll probably throw my hat in the ring tomorrow when I'm not on mobile. I have an idea I like quite a bit, but I had another one I don't plan on using but it might still be interesting to someone: a physicist. They fit the theme because they deal with atoms, but they'd be super powerful what with the radiation and nuclear detonations

Kaskus
2017-10-20, 01:55 AM
Just posted my Dust Devil PRC. My first ever contest entry. Let me know what y'all think. Thanks!

MrNobody
2017-10-20, 05:51 AM
Added my entry, a combat oriented PrC based on firing Fukimi Baris (spitting needles).
Still work in progress, i hope i can complete it soon.

I've been far from 3.5 for quite a long time... i hope i remember how to brew with it :smallbiggrin:

Edit: done! I may have to fix a detail or two but i'm mostly satisfied.

Westhart
2017-10-20, 06:59 AM
Well, I'm happy, I thought we'd have 3 or 4 entries at best :smallbiggrin:

They look good, I'll peach as I have time (probably this weekend or monday, (have a bunch of quizzes and stuff to do today)

Westhart
2017-10-20, 11:21 AM
PEACH
Dust Devil
1) Entry Requirements: Seems to me to have too much bold
I would do something like:
Entry Requirements
Spellcasting: Able to cast 5th level spells.
Skills Survival 5 ranks
Special: Fluff

More of a readability thing.
2) I would expand the skill list, at the very least it should be knowledge (All)
3) Energy substitution: I would make this also not increase casting time for spontaneous casters
4) Dust Immunity: I would make this flat out immunity @ 10th.
5) Dust blast: I would make the damage equal to 1d6 per (his class level + motes)/2.
6) Dust to Dust: You do not need to say the lower, you round down unless stated otherwise per RAW
7) Sandman's DR does nothing at the level you can get it, as almost everything will have at least a +1 by then. I would give them vulnerability against wind gust type effects and water.
8) I would give them more motes per day, such as extra motes equal to their wisdom modifier. Thus a druid 10 levels of this and a wis of 20 can use it more without cutting all his higher stuff off.

All in all it looks nice, good job!

Master of Needles
1) Ki needles: the monk's ki is lame, and this is no better... I would give them a +1 bonus equal to 1/4 heir character level.
2) Extended Range: I would condense this to one ability, making them have a range equal to level*10.
3) Precise Spit: first off, precise makes you think attack rolls (just saying) I would make the damage equal to level, I mean +5? and you are using little darts anyhow, which (I think?) deal 1 point of damage.
4) Flurry of needles: seems alright, although they should get rid of the penalty at a higher level.
5) breath of the spined dragon: hmm, interesting. I like it.
6) I would add onto the skill list, and increase the skills to 4+int...

Another good class!

Westhart
2017-10-20, 11:22 AM
Hi all! I think I'll probably throw my hat in the ring tomorrow when I'm not on mobile. I have an idea I like quite a bit, but I had another one I don't plan on using but it might still be interesting to someone: a physicist. They fit the theme because they deal with atoms, but they'd be super powerful what with the radiation and nuclear detonations

Can't wait to see it, good luck!

Westhart
2017-10-20, 11:25 AM
I also added a new Faster, Smaller, Stronger ability, that creates 2 pills that act like a delayed shrink effect (While I wish I made the class use both enlarge and reduce person so I could make a better Blue-Or-Pill joke :smalltongue:.

Hehe


I'm also thinking of making the Prc 7 levels long, making the 5th level ability make Reduce spelllast 1 hour/level (Increasing Compacted speeds duration to 1 minute/level and Float like a Butterfly, Sting like a Bee 10 minutes/ level) and have Long range, moving back everlasting reduction to level 7 and add some sort of auto Heighten effect for using reduce spells, like maybe being able to heighten reduce spells to up to your highest level while using a slot equal to Heighted spell level-1 for level 6.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback!
No problem, and feel free to expand the conest doesn't end until (goes and looks at previous posts) the 17th and then voting (ooh, that's gonna be hard) begins.

MrNobody
2017-10-20, 12:11 PM
Master of Needles
1) Ki needles: the monk's ki is lame, and this is no better... I would give them a +1 bonus equal to 1/4 heir character level.
2) Extended Range: I would condense this to one ability, making them have a range equal to level*10.
3) Precise Spit: first off, precise makes you think attack rolls (just saying) I would make the damage equal to level, I mean +5? and you are using little darts anyhow, which (I think?) deal 1 point of damage.
4) Flurry of needles: seems alright, although they should get rid of the penalty at a higher level.
5) breath of the spined dragon: hmm, interesting. I like it.
6) I would add onto the skill list, and increase the skills to 4+int...

Another good class!

Regarding 1, 2 and 6, those are valid objections, i'll think about them. I may move extended range at 4th level leaving precise shot the only ability at 2nd.

About 4, i think i'll leave the penalty where it is. Flurry of needles is gained at 3rd, and on a 5 level prc i feel i have no room to make it disappear... in addition, this ability makes you go against a rule explicitly made for fukimi bari... i think that the penalty is appropriate.

Regarding 3, i rewrote this ability 3 times before coming to what it is now. I already thought about bonus=level but to me it's too much.
At 5th you spit 8 needles (1 damage each), and if you add 5 to each one (5x8=40), you get 48 damage per attack.
Now, this is not too much 'per se', but i think its too much for the type of weapon the fukimi bari is. Its a weapon made for stealth, not to deal huge damage, but to deal enough damage to deliver poisons and such.
As the ability is, you get 24 damage per attack, which is enough to pass through most DR without going against the weapons nature, allowing to always deal that 1 point of damage that you need to deliver poison, sneak attack, or both.

EDIT. Oh, about 5... thanks!

Westhart
2017-10-20, 12:16 PM
Regarding 1, 2 and 6, those are valid objections, i'll think about them. I may move extended range at 4th level leaving precise shot the only ability at 2nd.

About 4, i think i'll leave the penalty where it is. Flurry of needles is gained at 3rd, and on a 5 level prc i feel i have no room to make it disappear... in addition, this ability makes you go against a rule explicitly made for fukimi bari... i think that the penalty is appropriate.

Regarding 3, i rewrote this ability 3 times before coming to what it is now. I already thought about bonus=level but to me it's too much.
At 5th you spit 8 needles (1 damage each), and if you add 5 to each one (5x8=40), you get 48 damage per attack.
Now, this is not too much 'per se', but i think its too much for the type of weapon the fukimi bari is. Its a weapon made for stealth, not to deal huge damage, but to deal enough damage to deliver poisons and such.
As the ability is, you get 24 damage per attack, which is enough to pass through most DR without going against the weapons nature, allowing to always deal that 1 point of damage that you need to deliver poison, sneak attack, or both.

Fair enough :smallsmile:.

Kaskus
2017-10-20, 02:56 PM
PEACH
Dust Devil
1) Entry Requirements: Seems to me to have too much bold
I would do something like:
Entry Requirements
Spellcasting: Able to cast 5th level spells.
Skills Survival 5 ranks
Special: Fluff

More of a readability thing.


Fixed



2) I would expand the skill list, at the very least it should be knowledge (All)

I went back and forth on the knowledge skills. I think your right about giving them all. I also added Search to the skill list.



3) Energy substitution: I would make this also not increase casting time for spontaneous casters

My intent was for this to not be metamagic per se. I added a clause at the end of this ability to make that clearer.



4) Dust Immunity: I would make this flat out immunity @ 10th.

There are only 5 levels :p
They have full immunity when in Sandman form.



5) Dust blast: I would make the damage equal to 1d6 per (his class level + motes)/2.

Agreed and changed.



6) Dust to Dust: You do not need to say the lower, you round down unless stated otherwise per RAW

The two numbers this compares are totally unrelated. The current mote pool acts as a cap on the ability.



7) Sandman's DR does nothing at the level you can get it, as almost everything will have at least a +1 by then. I would give them vulnerability against wind gust type effects and water.

Changed the DR to DR 5/-

Added double damage from water based attacks but given they have an ability calling out resistance to high winds and several abilities that utilize wind, I didn't think vulnerability to wind was appropriate.



8) I would give them more motes per day, such as extra motes equal to their wisdom modifier. Thus a druid 10 levels of this and a wis of 20 can use it more without cutting all his higher stuff off.

This is by design. Each of the base abilities are free so they can spam those All day long. Then they have the choice to give up higher abilities or make certain abilities less effective in exchange for a boost. This is also why every boost costs only 1 mote.

For those craving more power, I have added a feat - Expanded Mote Pool



All in all it looks nice, good job!

Thanks!

Kaskus
2017-10-20, 06:21 PM
@MrNobody

Have you considered having the master of needles advance / grant sneak attack?

Jormengand
2017-10-20, 08:30 PM
Well I've made like half of a something. It'll take a while to write up the elite spells but oh well.

neriractor
2017-10-20, 08:31 PM
any idea what feat I could use for the requirements for a class focused on fungal spores?

Knitifine
2017-10-20, 08:55 PM
The leveler appears to be completely off theme?

Baby Gary
2017-10-20, 09:59 PM
The leveler appears to be completely off theme?

I'm guessing it has to go with making big stuff small, like that nice city, leveling it and making it smaller in hight.

I personally like it, it is defiantly a cool way to interpret the theme.

Kaskus
2017-10-20, 10:38 PM
any idea what feat I could use for the requirements for a class focused on fungal spores?

While there aren't any fungal feats of which I am aware, you could take a queue from the oozemaster and require Great Fortitude.

Another thought would be Skill Focus Knowledge (Nature)

Morphic tide
2017-10-20, 10:47 PM
Yeah, some of the things in BoVD were annoying, but then so was ancestral relic in BoED, after all why can't I have an evil aligned family heirloom? :smallcool:. Your class sounds interesting, good luck!
You kinda can have an Evil-aligned family heirloom. It's called the Item Familiar variant, where everyone gets a special scaling weapon that eventually starts talking to them. I, and presumably Red Fel, recommend an Axe of Blood, which gets you a +3 bonus on the cheap with the "downside" of shifting your alignment to Chaotic Evil(okay, Fel might not like the Chaotic part...) over time and losing its bonus if it isn't coated in blood regularly. The -2 cursed weapon is an attempt to make an impossible to lose weapon that is bad enough to not keep for the sake of never being unarmed, and still fails when you have enough accuracy, like an 18/18 Str/Int Warblade that has the rest of its stats at a passable amount. Heirloom Relic's biggest draw is the way it gives you a convenient means of applying wealth to magic item power, without needing to find crafters or anything.


there I am done with mine

for those wondering how it fits the theme you start out stealing little stuff, then...

also this is the first homebrew thing that I have ever done, so please excuse any bad wording.

P.S. do you think mine it too powerful?
...You know what, this is a thing that's bugged me about these contests, but there really needs to be clearer defining of the theme of the contest in them. And that class is largely replaced by a feat and a skill trick. And Arcane Trickster, which can use Slight of Hand checks from a distance a few times per day(I'd personally roll that into Mage Hand, or have it be expending spell slots for it like your slots-for-Slight-of-Hand bonii). A pretty big flaw is how vastly more powerful Wizard entry is than any of the other entry options, because of that quadrupled bonus for using a prepared Illusion spell for Arcane Lifting. If you make a PEACH thread for it, I might proofread it like I (partially) did to a painfully badly worded Pathfinder class based on Fate/Stay Night's Gilgamesh, of all things. Part of the critique side was to suggest changes to it to be more archetype friendly, which is a complaint I levy at any Pathfinder class I see as difficult to archetype for.

By appearances, I'm going to have what is by far the most complicated. Once I figure out what scaling values I want... The issue with figuring it out is that it feeds into itself. The casting per HD of Swarm defines how many HD are needed for the casting progression I want, which in turn informs the tradeoffs of going over the default limit, needed for 9th level spells past a certain level, and the default limit itself. This mess of linked scaling factors then decides how much I can get away with on the other abilities before it goes overboard on power. Then there's the swarms themselves to work out, which I might well end up using the mechanics of in more directly chimeric creation PRCs because composition ratios are easier to work with than actually statting out a bundle of different swarms and working out rules for mixing them.

...HD representing swarm density, with all swarms occupying 5 ft. squares/cubes, solves a lot of the issues with making the class properly function, and allows for relatively easily modelling shifting densities around. Composition can be tracked by HD, fractional when lower end. This makes tracking available insects and arthropods a lot easier, because you then track by relatively small HD numbers, with some fractions, instead of the four and five digit numbers for Fine and Diminutive swarms. This also makes removing a bit of fiat easier by having a means of more easily modelling insect reproduction rates as their rate of HP gain under normal circumstances, and when given accelerating spell slot use. Goodberry and Create Food and Water could work as prerequisite spells for this reason... After all, if you're going to have tens of thousands of insects following you around, you need some way to feed them.

With HD based swarm tracking, ratios can go out the window because you can instead judge it by the HD of the component insect or arthropod. This cuts complexity quite a bit, because you don't need to work out simultaneously increasing numbers with HD and reducing them by ratios. I mean, the math(GiantITP forums still uses hard British English, its spell checker wants Maths, not Math) works out the same either way, but it goes by easier and lets the rules be reused for monoculture swarms with casual ease. Per two HD seems to be the standard, but adjusting that to make the HD control cap of the PRC conform to a useful save progression would be important. Working the numbers for a challenge rating is probably going overboard, all things considered...

The HD tracking does make some things harder, as you don't have room for a convenient scaling by hit dice. Of course, a default Swarm statline that is altered by the insects and arthropods you use with it makes the numbers work out significantly better, and using Size modifiers covers quite a bit of issues with density. The existing Swarm rules cover damage-by-HD, which is automatically applied each round making some of the issues with giving lots of Strength much less of a problem.


Just posted my Dust Devil PRC. My first ever contest entry. Let me know what y'all think. Thanks!
Okay, this one is... barely identifiable as being related to the theme, because it's themed on Dust Devils, the dusty whirlwinds. Which are rarely seen as little because they're aggregates of lots of things tiny to the point people rarely think about the individual tiny things. The idea of it is nice, though Desiccation Damage has nasty rules attached and I'm a bit wary of immunity to thirst. Gives nice things for a hardline Evoker to defend themselves with, which is welcome for reducing the need for party resources to be spent on a damage-dealer. Now if only it was a class for Martials...

Personally, I'd make more things scale with Motes instead of level. It makes the class have a higher peak, but Mote scaling makes them more likely to save those abilities for when they're actually pressed. Making fallacies regarding too-grave costs is one of the few ways to balance full casters in 3.5. And it works quite well for making them refrain from high level slot usage. It also makes them more likely to blow a feat on Extra Motes, which is another nice way to make non-optimizers waste character resources for the sake of "safety." Beyond that, I'd make it 3/5 or 4/5 casting, the Concealment and Desiccation resistance is too much for full casting.


Added my entry, a combat oriented PrC based on firing Fukimi Baris (spitting needles).
Still work in progress, i hope i can complete it soon.

I've been far from 3.5 for quite a long time... i hope i remember how to brew with it :smallbiggrin:

Edit: done! I may have to fix a detail or two but i'm mostly satisfied.
Ah, good, another interesting one! I see it as a problem with the class that it's mono-focused on a single weapon with no tangential abilities. Like, if I were making such a class, I'd give it an ability or two relating to gale-force shouts dealing slight Sonic damage(or not-so-slight, if you have it equal Unarmed Strike damage) and causing knockback, getting enemies clear for your needles and giving you something for when you're out of needles entirely. Speaking of Unarmed Strike, the lack of any involvement in it for the damage progression seems... Odd. Like, using the last step of your Unarmed Strike damage for the damage of the needles would make them actually viable, especially with range improvements.

It's a good class, it does what it sets out to do by making a niche weapon useful, but it has the problem of all such classes by making the character tie up even more power in equipment. I'd love it if it had a 2nd or 3rd level ability that acts as a less-powerful version of Breath of the Spined Dragon that doesn't need Needles but benefits from their magic, while also making Breath of the Spined Dragon not require needles, but be made better for having them. Something like 3d6 Sonic damage without needles for the 3rd level and 3d6 Piercing on top from the needles, then 5d6 Sonic and 10d6 Piercing from the capstone. Really just to give the class something to do in the absence of needle supplies. Heck, a capstone to make needles out of Ki-infused breath alone would be appropriate and extremely useful by making basic function independent of needle access.


Well I've made like half of a something. It'll take a while to write up the elite spells but oh well.
Elite Spells need to be more like War Spells, being templates that increase the spell level. This is to make it better fit the theme of little things by letting you use Elite Spells to violate restrictions on lower-level spells, making you able to make low level spells into viable high level spells. Turning Fireball into a 9th-level spell by stacking modifiers on it is a strong option. Having it be in the form of an extra spell slot means that Sorcerers love the expansion of their known spells, while Spirit Shamans love having staple spells on a fixed Spells Known list to free up their daily choices for niche spells. The requirement of using an Elite modifier would remove the Elite Cantrips, but that removes some shenanigans and makes it so that there's less shenanigans with using staple spells for your Elite options because they're always at least one level higher.

As-is, it's too much a Rainbow Servant type class. It'll really only be used to expand the spell list, when it could shift some power to actual features for terrain destruction, like expending a spell slot to automatically deal xd6 per slot level divided as desired among walls and objects. At high levels, that would result in being able to just break down a huge area by busting load-bearing walls and obliterating the equipment of large groups of enemies.


any idea what feat I could use for the requirements for a class focused on fungal spores?
Plant Wild Shape, obviously, so the Druid(or Ranger, we shouldn't judge entry method) can turn into a fungus. Maybe make it "Two [Wild] feats, of which one must be Plant Wild Shape." Nine times out of ten, this means Natural Spell, but it allows stuff like Extra Wild Shape instead. Then you can have the PRC expend Wild Shape uses for an ability without being completely silly, because you have two feats from a category almost purely about Wild Shape.

I suppose I'll quickly cram out the basic core of my class "today." It might take long enough to roll over into tomorrow, as there's about 15 minutes until tomorrow while I'm typing this, but having at least the placeholder post with all the columns in place will convince me to work on it more when I get up. Morning, afternoon, my sleep cycle's wound up screwed by late night activities.

Knitifine
2017-10-20, 10:53 PM
I'm guessing it has to go with making big stuff small, like that nice city, leveling it and making it smaller in hight.

I personally like it, it is defiantly a cool way to interpret the theme.Ah, alright I see the perspective.

Honestly that seems like a huge stretch to me, since by that logic you can justify any class mainly about destroying things, but whatever goats your moat.

neriractor
2017-10-20, 11:04 PM
While there aren't any fungal feats of which I am aware, you could take a queue from the oozemaster and require Great Fortitude.

Another thought would be Skill Focus Knowledge (Nature)

Iīm already giving it a knowledge (nature) skill rank minimun, I like the great fortitude idea, fits nicely with the class.


I'm guessing it has to go with making big stuff small, like that nice city, leveling it and making it smaller in hight.

I personally like it, it is defiantly a cool way to interpret the theme.

thatīs what I thought when I saw it, the voting is just getting harder and harder...

btw: are we using the same voting pattern as the other contests? (first place, second place, third place, most likely to be used, best representation of the theme... forgot the last one :smalltongue:)


-snip-
Plant Wild Shape, obviously, so the Druid(or Ranger, we shouldn't judge entry method) can turn into a fungus. Maybe make it "Two [Wild] feats, of which one must be Plant Wild Shape." Nine times out of ten, this means Natural Spell, but it allows stuff like Extra Wild Shape instead. Then you can have the PRC expend Wild Shape uses for an ability without being completely silly, because you have two feats from a category almost purely about Wild Shape.

Iīll think about it, for now Iīm looking at the class as more of an specialization for non casters who want to get some plant-based castery stuff under their belt* but trading uses of wild shape for abilities does mean I can go for more power, since youīll be trading casting for them (even if itīll sometimes will be ranger casting).

*I know how that sounds but Iīm not just going to give them spell-likes a few times a day.


...Morning, afternoon, my sleep cycle's wound up screwed by late night activities.

tell me about it

Morphic tide
2017-10-21, 12:12 AM
Iīll think about it, for now Iīm looking at the class as more of an specialization for non casters who want to get some plant-based castery stuff under their belt* but trading uses of wild shape for abilities does mean I can go for more power, since youīll be trading casting for them (even if itīll sometimes will be ranger casting).

*I know how that sounds but Iīm not just going to give them spell-likes a few times a day.

Hmm... If it's not meant for casters, I'm not really sure what to do for it. Skill Focus(Knowledge(Nature)) seems the most likely, because I can't really research properly right now. Too tired. Thankfully, it's the weekend, so I can stay up another hour or two to work out what the heck I want to do for the wording of the core abilities. If you do go down the Wild Shape use route, it should be about as impactful as Wild Shape itself so its not a non-option. So basically a concrete all-day advantage of some kind, preferably one that Wildshape doesn't give itself and that isn't easily covered by an animal companion.

Oh, I've also got the fundamental numbers outline, and image and quote, of mine worked out. Most of it done while this post is being typed. The numbers under Swarm HD right now are the resultant CL of the HD, to be multiplied and rounded later because I need to retrieve my graphing calculator from my room. The online calculators are... not comfortable to use. There'll be more layers of limitation on it, mind you, to force multiple attribute dependence onto the Cleric and Druid entry method. And penalties will also provoke MAD. The intent is to force at least three attribute dependence. Wisdom for casting, Intelligence for some of the limitations and Dexterity or Constitution for penalties. High enough requirements that it needs a significant bonus just to have the baseline 3/5 casting, let alone getting 5/5. Getting the 7/5 or 8/5 should take extreme optimization around the limitations.

Jormengand
2017-10-21, 08:21 AM
I'm guessing it has to go with making big stuff small, like that nice city, leveling it and making it smaller in hight.

Yes; this is even hinted at in the opening. Also, the poem in the intro is about people who think they're mightier than they are.


Elite Spells need to be more like War Spells, being templates that increase the spell level. This is to make it better fit the theme of little things by letting you use Elite Spells to violate restrictions on lower-level spells, making you able to make low level spells into viable high level spells. Turning Fireball into a 9th-level spell by stacking modifiers on it is a strong option.

Turning Fireball into a strong third-level spell by casting elite fireball is also a strong option (and using elite low-level slots also seems to fit the theme better, honestly). I don't see that forcing them to use what are essentially metamagic on an ego trip is really a great thing - metamagic already exists, and maximised widened fireball is already a spell you can cast out of a ninth-level slot if you want to do that.


Having it be in the form of an extra spell slot means that Sorcerers love the expansion of their known spells, while Spirit Shamans love having staple spells on a fixed Spells Known list to free up their daily choices for niche spells. The requirement of using an Elite modifier would remove the Elite Cantrips, but that removes some shenanigans and makes it so that there's less shenanigans with using staple spells for your Elite options because they're always at least one level higher.

I don't mind people blowing their spells known on niche spells and then using their elite spells as staples because that's exactly what you're meant to do. If you have one spell that's vastly stronger than the other spells of the same level, why wouldn't you try to use it as often as you can, after all?


As-is, it's too much a Rainbow Servant type class. It'll really only be used to expand the spell list, when it could shift some power to actual features for terrain destruction, like expending a spell slot to automatically deal xd6 per slot level divided as desired among walls and objects. At high levels, that would result in being able to just break down a huge area by busting load-bearing walls and obliterating the equipment of large groups of enemies.

Well, you could just expend a spell slot to, I dunno, cast earthquake, causing 100 damage to each wall and building in the area, which is more than 8d6 however you swing it. But more to the point, that's just another spell, only with 5e scaling instead of 3.5 scaling for no good reason.

I'm considering giving them some "Actual class features" (because you know that the reason that cleric and sorcerer are strong is because of their mighty Turn Undead and Familiar and not because they have spells) but "1.8 spells per level get supercharged" is power enough on its own, especially for a full-casting PrC.

sengmeng
2017-10-21, 10:58 AM
Ok, the Singer of the Forbidden Song is done... honestly had a lot of fun with it. I feel the Forbidden Song ability is a wall of text, however; is it clear, intuitive, and could it be said more succinctly?

Also, I did something a little... weird with the Ex bard thing.

The relation to the theme is contained in a very small detail :biggrin:

Jormengand
2017-10-21, 11:24 AM
Ok, the Singer of the Forbidden Song is done... honestly had a lot of fun with it. I feel the Forbidden Song ability is a wall of text, however; is it clear, intuitive, and could it be said more succinctly?

The use of the return key and some moving of sentences would help:

"The research, discovery, and use of the Forbidden Song is what makes a Singer of the Forbidden Song. The Song has an insidious effect on all thinking beings, driving them to escape hearing it by any means necessary, up to and including taking their own lives.

A Singer of the Forbidden Song may use the Forbidden Song a number of times per day equal to their class level. Starting the Song is a standard action and so is maintaining it. A Performance check is made as part of this action. The result of this check is the total number of HD of creatures that can be affected by this use of the Forbidden Song. A creature with more HD than the Singer's ranks in Perform cannot be affected by the Song. Creatures who are mindless, deaf, or too powerful do not count against the total HD affected.

Creatures who can be affected make a will save vs a DC equal to the Singer's ranks in Perform plus their Charisma bonus. The range of the Forbidden Song is 60 feet, starting with the closest affectable creature. They do not need line of sight but must be able to hear the Song. Failing the save means fleeing unless they have half as many HD as the Singer or fewer. If they are unable to flee, they cower, taking no action but covering their ears and attackers gain a +2 to hit. The fleeing effect lasts 10 rounds.

Creatures with half as many HD as the Singer or fewer attempt a Coup de Grace on themselves with whatever weapon is handy or no weapon at all if none is available. Creatures who would be affected by the compulsion to Coup de Grace themselves but are immune to Coups de Grace and/or critical hits simply attack themselves with a normal attack (including with ranged weapons if that's what they have in their hands).

The Song allows a save each round it is maintained. The Song's effects are not fear effects and can affect any creature which can hear and has an intelligence score, even those normally immune to mind-affecting effects. It does not count as an enchantment, compulsion, or supernatural ability and functions in an antimagic field."

Westhart
2017-10-21, 03:52 PM
Someone asked about the methods of voting, we'll be using this:
1st: 3 pts
2nd: 2 pts
3rd: 1 pt
Most Related to Theme: 1 pt
Most original: 1 pt
Most likely to see play: 1 pt

Unless anyone has some objections?

Also, would you all prefer PM votes (as in you do not see other votes) or public?

EDIT: I'll look through the new classes monday.

Jormengand
2017-10-21, 05:32 PM
Someone asked about the methods of voting, we'll be using this:
1st: 3 pts
2nd: 2 pts
3rd: 1 pt
Most Related to Theme: 1 pt
Most original: 1 pt
Most likely to see play: 1 pt

Unless anyone has some objections?

Most original, Most Likely to See Play and Best Use Of Theme (which is different from "Most related to" because cleverness and artistic license>blind obedience) are usually counted separately.


Also, would you all prefer PM votes (as in you do not see other votes) or public?

I hate, odiate, despise, detest, ABOMINATE cloak-and-dagger voting. There is no point in being handed a metaphorical trophy if you can't know why you won it or what thought processes went into the votes. Even a one-line review saying one thing you liked about the class is leagues apart from nothing, and in general, people who PM votes don't provide reasons (and/or chairs don't post those reasons). It's brilliant to get a set of in-depth, thoughtful reviews like t (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20046248&postcount=11)h (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22193950&postcount=4)e (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21302168&postcount=13)s (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20336824&postcount=7)e (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21735447&postcount=12) which you just don't get with hidden votes. And as far as I can tell, the argument in favour of cloak-and-dagger is "It's not THAT bad" rather than any genuine reason that it's beneficial.

It's not like we're voting for some political office; the numbers matter a lot less than the critique in this case. I'm more interested in the fact that I get critique on the bits of my class that might or might not work right than the voting. I don't come here for the ego boost of knowing that my semiprofessional game design skills and obsessive completionism are able to put out better material than a bunch of people making things in their spare time as a just-for-fun thing. I come here for the critique that you get in the voting thread.

Temotei
2017-10-21, 05:38 PM
Someone asked about the methods of voting, we'll be using this:
1st: 3 pts
2nd: 2 pts
3rd: 1 pt
Most Related to Theme: 1 pt
Most original: 1 pt
Most likely to see play: 1 pt

Unless anyone has some objections?

Also, would you all prefer PM votes (as in you do not see other votes) or public?

EDIT: I'll look through the new classes monday.

I would vastly prefer the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place votes to give points while the categories do not give points--only the top placement gets the award for that category.

I also prefer public voting.

Amechra
2017-10-21, 10:27 PM
I might drag myself out of retirement for this - looks like a fun theme. And it's been an age and a half since I've done some homebrewing.

Now, how literal do I want to be?

Knitifine
2017-10-22, 01:23 AM
I advocate for private voting, since public voting naturally skews people to follow group-think choices, and strategically sink entries they don't like. It also allows more people to interact with the contest without getting harassed by certain overly aggressive forum members.

sengmeng
2017-10-22, 11:46 AM
I agree generally with Jormengand, although I do take satisfaction in winning the contests, the feedback is much more important. Although, I'm not 100% certain that private voting discourages feedback, if it could I'd rather not do it. I agree that group think does seem to skew the votes, but that's less important than the feedback.

Westhart
2017-10-22, 04:10 PM
Most original, Most Likely to See Play and Best Use Of Theme (which is different from "Most related to" because cleverness and artistic license>blind obedience) are usually counted separately.

Woops, my bad, shoulda looked it up :smallredface:


I would vastly prefer the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place votes to give points while the categories do not give points--only the top placement gets the award for that category.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea... Anyone want to vote on it, or have a problem with it?


Well 3 in favor of public 1 against, so so far we'll go public voting.



I might drag myself out of retirement for this - looks like a fun theme. And it's been an age and a half since I've done some homebrewing.

Now, how literal do I want to be?

Good luck if you enter!

gawwy
2017-10-23, 03:48 AM
Just posted the mini-o-mancer. A flexible minionmancer type prestige class that I wanted basically anyone to be able to enter and make use of while still retaining the flavor of the entry class through the micro focus. I need to write up some more micro focuses especially non class specific ones.

Morphic tide
2017-10-23, 05:29 AM
Just posted the mini-o-mancer. A flexible minionmancer type prestige class that I wanted basically anyone to be able to enter and make use of while still retaining the flavor of the entry class through the micro focus. I need to write up some more micro focuses especially non class specific ones.

Well, I have some overhaul suggestions. Instead of just being a flat stacking of features, it can integrate them with the minions. For example, precision damage getting a bonus based on HD of flanking minions, which covers Sneak Attack and Skirmish, alongside similar conditional bonus damage negated by critical hit immunity.

In general, granting abilities outright is better than just scaling them. Instead of just progressing class features, it can be conditional progression of a non-standard form. An extra spell slot or a few extra PP for each HD of minion, perhaps. Another dozen points of Crafting Reserve, or a bonus to skill checks. Building up the scaling by controlled HD is the way to go with this. This basically turns Micro Focus into a means of gaining lots of versatile power that's ultimately used best by having some of it yourself to begin with.

As-is, it's pretty lazy because it doesn't actually do anything interesting with granting scaling. You might as well take a page out of Legacy Champion and just have it give progression to pre-existing class features at those levels.

Westhart
2017-10-23, 08:40 AM
Sengmeng: Your singer of the forbidden song looks awesome, and my quibbles with it are going to be the ex-bard section :smallbiggrin:.
1) Debilitating Song should scale for the ex-bards
2) Since they are sacrificing bard abilities, maybe do something like the blackguard, where an ex-paladin gets some unique abilities... Maybe a range increase and some other things related to the song?

Gawwy: I'm sorry, but I have to go with Morphic tide for this one... Also at later levels they should get the ability to rebuke those with levels and swarms... Making it scale with level (and possibly charisma?) of course.

Kaskus: You have some copy paste rubbish in your skill section.

MrNobody
2017-10-23, 03:47 PM
Change log:

1- Extended range is now one single ability, at 4th level.
2 - Ki-needles now also allow the Master of Needles to create a small amount of Fukimi-baris from his own ki each day. Added a "special connection" with monks and ninjas that now can spend 1 use of stunning fist or a point of ki pool to restore a small amount of these ki- fukimi-baris.

Soon (?) to come:

- Style feats for monks and ninjas with better options when dealing with this PrC.

Morphic tide
2017-10-23, 05:39 PM
Okay, so, I've gotten my graphing calculator out, and I've got two realistic options on the actual HD per caster level. Six gives a flat number at all levels for both "normal" limit and maximum push, but has the severe problem of number crunching. It makes per-HD Swarm stats hugely problematic because of how many there are. It causes a need for harsh Constitution penalties on the Swarm baseline to prevent utterly absurd health pools. But it has a very attractive feature in neatly lining up to 20 HD lower bound control at 5th level in the PRC. The 45 HD upper bound is a problem due to four or five Epic feats being available with unrestricted access to feats on the Swarms.

The alternative is four HD per CL, which neatly aligns Swarm damage with CL progression. This gives 13 HD for lower bound at level 5 and 30 HD for upper bound at level 5, which is a much less problematic three Epic feats. Using much less restrictive access becomes viable, as most of the problematic Epic feats require skill ranks and stats that can be pretty easily prevented, unlike with 45 HD enabling Epic Spellcasting the moment 9th level spells enter the playing field because of sheer HD making cross-class insufficient.

I'll go with four HD per CL, just because it makes the job of the restrictions on the feat access less problematic. And the casting progression will be a 3rd level feature, just to make sure people actually lose a caster level from the class. And have to suffer through a lost spell level if they're actually taking the levels through normal play. I made the entry requirements be really open-ended, to the point of basically letting any character with an outright ability to create nutrition, Sustenance Personal-range power included, and control swarms of vermin, Spider Swarm Improved Familiar option included, have entry to the PRC. Which means that CL progression is going to need to be absurdly open-ended, because it's going to have to cover as many kinds of ability as possible.

For now, I'm just covering the utter basics of the control method, Swarm statline, and Arcane and Divine casting. Feats will be level 4 or 5, because a potential ten extra feats, no matter the cost, is worth quite a bit. Currently, it's just the entry and skill information, and the post has been shifted to the template's format. Also putting down the abilities currently decided on onto the table, including Swarm HD limit...

Oh, by the way, Wasp and Dust Devil are still using placeholder names for class skills.

sengmeng
2017-10-24, 12:05 PM
Sengmeng: Your singer of the forbidden song looks awesome, and my quibbles with it are going to be the ex-bard section :smallbiggrin:.
1) Debilitating Song should scale for the ex-bards
2) Since they are sacrificing bard abilities, maybe do something like the blackguard, where an ex-paladin gets some unique abilities... Maybe a range increase and some other things related to the song?

You're absolutely right. I thought advancing the casting and sneak attack would make for a balanced class, but it needs to be better since removing bardic music also removes an entire role from the character. I'll whip something up soonish.

Westhart
2017-10-24, 12:21 PM
You're absolutely right. I thought advancing the casting and sneak attack would make for a balanced class, but it needs to be better since removing bardic music also removes an entire role from the character. I'll whip something up soonish.

Well, I would let them keep bardic knowledge (and advance it) to start with, after all, forbidden music should not affect it much, IMO.

sengmeng
2017-10-24, 01:25 PM
I added Enraging Song, sending allies or enemies into a rage-like state. It's a little more versatility, since it can buff allies but also would shut down enemy spellcasters. Bardic Knowledge is also advanced, and an additional -1 to the penalty from Debilitating song.

Morphic tide
2017-10-24, 07:48 PM
Okay, Ten Thousand Sparks of Life now has the basic information done. It's now at the "technically playable" point, if you don't mind being restricted to Spiders alone and having nothing but a 13-30 HD swarm of the things. They don't have webs... And I just realized that I forgot to put in the Vermin per HD entry so that Hive Minds can actually use the same type of Swarm.

Baby Gary
2017-10-25, 08:01 PM
ok, can someone tell me how exactly does judging work? I have an idea (12% of an idea) but I want to know how this actually works. Thanks!

sengmeng
2017-10-26, 05:18 AM
ok, can someone tell me how exactly does judging work? I have an idea (12% of an idea) but I want to know how this actually works. Thanks!

It's done with voting, so each voter decides what's important to them. Power, balance, flavor, how fun it looks to play, adherence to the theme, or even humor could all be the deciding factor for different voters. The best bet is to hit them all.

Morphic tide
2017-10-30, 10:36 PM
Okay, I'm moving the Composite Swarm stuff to another thread, so that there won't be bloat from all those things. Besides, it's very much another incidence of homebrew only related by how it can be used with the PRC. That post will be done significantly later, if ever(why the hell to all the SRD Swarms have so much Dexterity and basically none of any other stat?). The main reason I'm making this post is to say I've actually finished the control mechanism(it was missing rules for taking over existing swarms) and added what is essentially automatic, stacking, Extend Spell to it. So all your Swarm-producing things last twice as long, provided you use your control cap on it. I also added the second level ability, which allows a Hive Master to use their swarm's Spot and Listen bonuses instead of their own. All of their Swarm's bonuses, stacking together, with the restriction of the Swarms used needing to be able to make a Spot or Listen check against the target. Also line of sight sharing, for those non-line-of-effect spells to target whatever.

Now to figure out which way I want the level four and five abilities to be... Because it's feats and mental score bonuses, which are both utter crazy for the available means of entry. Maybe I should make it a more specific entry method, so that a lot of the kerfuffles involved in being open ended are removed and I can focus on a limited number of abilities. Also need to figure out scaling values for the various progressions given for the 3rd level ability. In particular, I want the wording to permit the use of the class as an entry method to other power sources, like a Druid entry gaining Psionics from the PRC. Or some funky Initiator entry getting to go into Divine spellcasting for that tasty Gish/Theurge PRC.

...while I'm making this post, I suppose we could talk about the next contest. I'd like to see Switch Hitter, myself, where you have a close and long range combat method on one character. Blaster-gishes that use spells for long-range damage fall into the theme, as does an archer that uses spells for melee. The interesting stuff comes with theurges, like using Invocations for melee and Psionics for long range by way of Enlarge Power and Eldritch Glave, or a Soulcaster variant that uses Incarnum for long range and spellcasting for melee by being Touch spell focused, yet having ranged weapons as a requirement.

More conceptually, PRCs that apply to ranged and melee near-equally, if not outright favoring ranged yet being useful for melee, can be done. For example, a class that improves it's attack rolls based on how many times they've attack a particular target that turn. This is better for ranged than melee, because Multishot has a fixed penalty that can be lower than the number of attacks. So you get a flat out bonus to some of the attacks made. TWF also loves it for being a means of removing that pesky iterative penalty, as does Monk's Flurry of Misses. Basically, any build that makes multiple attacks per round, even attack roll spells, gets some lovely advantage from it.

Going purely into the basic idea of switch hitting, you could have a Psionic PRC that shifts between bonuses to different damage types and associated features, because you're switching between different types of damage. Similarly, an Arcane/Psionic theurge focused on switching between power sources to bypass resistances against one or the other power source technically qualifies. Really, anything involving switching between multiple types of offence works for the concept of switch hitting.

Westhart
2017-10-31, 09:00 AM
-snip (next contest idea)-

So, Switch hitter? Alright, one vote for that :smallbiggrin:.

Note to everyone, the contest ends and voting starts the 17th.

Westhart
2017-10-31, 11:17 PM
Happy Halloween all!

@daremetoidareyo did you purposely post that on Halloween :smalltongue:
EDIT: ...and welcome to the contest :P

daremetoidareyo
2017-11-01, 04:53 PM
Happy Halloween all!

@daremetoidareyo did you purposely post that on Halloween :smalltongue:
EDIT: ...and welcome to the contest :P

Thanks. No, I finally decided that my arcane mark cantrip prestige class was boring.

Morphic tide
2017-11-01, 06:32 PM
Thanks. No, I finally decided that my arcane mark cantrip prestige class was boring.

...note to self, if Switch Hitter wins for next contest topic, make Monk/Sorcerer gish with Arcane Mark and Craft Contingency Spell as requirements. Maybe Ascetic Mage too, or instead of Craft Contingency Spell. Because Quivering Palm is so bad, I want to make a prestige class offering a strict upgrade.

daremetoidareyo
2017-11-01, 06:52 PM
Ok, rough hewn draft finished. I'll do the fluff later.

The Dermagraphter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22527031&postcount=12)

Question: Do I drop a level of casting from this, seeing as how one gets a free feat, and the ability to steal a limited number of class features? First casting level or final casting level? I'm leaning towards the final level.

Jormengand
2017-11-05, 07:24 PM
So, the leveller is finally finished. I had to make a second post to fit it all in (was about 72k characters out of the 50k limit) but it's finished. And no, I am not sorry about taking up half of the physical length of the webpage of the submission thread.

Thoughts? Comments? Grievances?

Westhart
2017-11-06, 08:15 AM
Ok, rough hewn draft finished. I'll do the fluff later.

The Dermagraphter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22527031&postcount=12)

Question: Do I drop a level of casting from this, seeing as how one gets a free feat, and the ability to steal a limited number of class features? First casting level or final casting level? I'm leaning towards the final level.
I always preferred first levels for mine if I dropped a single, especially when the goal is to not lose any CL... keeps thing like dipping for telepathy (ahem *mindbender* ahem) from happening, although the last level is nice.
A few questions:
" like a tattoo from the special dispensation feat (Cityscape)" Since the tattoo was a symbol of permission for them to carry X does that mean until they get another they can't, and whoever gets that piece of skin gets the feat's effects? Graft Tattoo answered the last part.

Anaesthetic Casting: Maybe the ability to ignore immunities, or increase HD caps?

Why is field surgeon only on rushed heal checks?

Preserve organ Mastery (DR 2/-) meh, not much... but then leadership+this for an army... might be useful I guess. Be better if it stacked though...

I like the class, very interesting :smallsmile:

So, the leveller is finally finished. I had to make a second post to fit it all in (was about 72k characters out of the 50k limit) but it's finished. And no, I am not sorry about taking up half of the physical length of the webpage of the submission thread.

Thoughts? Comments? Grievances?

Only through Immobilising Hand so far, but one problem with some of the energy blaster type spells: energy resistance/immunity. Aside from that they look really nice, and I can tell a lot of work went into 'em. Nice job! :smallsmile:

Westhart
2017-11-06, 01:31 PM
I was thinking for the hedge mage, an epic feat that allows it to use higher spells:
Late Bloomer [Epic]
It's alright, you'll catch up with Van Conjurer soon enough... I think.
Requirements: Lord of Hedgery class feature
Benefits: When you take this feat your Hedge Mage restrictions are relaxed, allowing you access to a spells of higher levels, following the normal progression of your entry class. For example, a wizard would gain access to 5th level slots, and could cast a number equal to a 20th level wizard (since spells per day cap there). Meanwhile a sorcerer would have the equivalent spells per day and spells known.
Special: This feat can be selected more then once.

Too OP? Should I make an epic progression that allows them to eventually get those 9's and let them benefit from their abilities as well? After all, they will have only 4th level spells at 15th... and not be able to get higher level... ever.

Jormengand
2017-11-06, 05:00 PM
Only through Immobilising Hand so far, but one problem with some of the energy blaster type spells: energy resistance/immunity. Aside from that they look really nice, and I can tell a lot of work went into 'em. Nice job! :smallsmile:

I like to think that energy resistance and immunity aren't as much of a problem as you might think. For a start, in general, enemies don't tend to be immune to multiple things - this ain't Diablo II. If you see a circling red dragon, you put down the conflagration and lob a blizzard at it. Further, a lot of the damaging energy spells give the enemy a nasty condition like Frozen Solid or Stunned even if they take no damage. There's no particular shame in throwing a freezing ray at a cold-immune creature just because 1 round/level of no actions is nasty enough on its own. Finally, of course, searing spell exists, and you actually get access to searing conflagration the same level as you get the regular version, because you actually get the 5th-level slots before the third-level elite spell known. I'm aware that the leveller is basically going to be used in an environment where searing spell is known and standard (it's meant for fairly high-power play since the drawback of getting spells as powerful as heaven's roar is literally that you're not an incantatrix and had to burn a few skill points that you probably don't need).



A couple of changes I have made include a bit of a formatting fix up, and a longer intro for those who still don't get why fighting things thousands of times your size makes you comparatively small.

Lanth Sor
2017-11-06, 05:15 PM
Class Features: Starting at the 2nd level and every even level there after the intern gains all the class features tied to the class chosen as part of internship. Treat the intern as a level 0 in the class for determining what the level increase does. If the intern's class level + levels in the class they are interning in would exceed their Character Level the bonus does not apply to unlocking new abilities.

Got My Certification: Starting at the 10th level, an intern upon taking 1 level in the chosen class adds all their intern levels to their class levels in the chosen class for determining what class features they have and what level they are in the class.

I feel like there is a better way to write this, but I can't think of one.

JoshuaZ
2017-11-06, 10:22 PM
I'm very happy to see this. For a long time there was a PrC contest but it died off. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371403-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-Chat-Thread-VI is I think the final chat thread for it?

Morphic tide
2017-11-07, 03:31 PM
So, I've got the core function of the class worked out(Clerical Divine, Druidic Divine and Psionic casting progressing are available), and have removed the food-generation requirement. Having trouble coming up with a name for feat use, so that's not done yet. Also having trouble with a name for Arcane progression, and will do the mental score increase crunch later.

Westhart
2017-11-07, 07:40 PM
I like to think that energy resistance and immunity aren't as much of a problem as you might think. For a start, in general, enemies don't tend to be immune to multiple things - this ain't Diablo II. If you see a circling red dragon, you put down the conflagration and lob a blizzard at it. Further, a lot of the damaging energy spells give the enemy a nasty condition like Frozen Solid or Stunned even if they take no damage. There's no particular shame in throwing a freezing ray at a cold-immune creature just because 1 round/level of no actions is nasty enough on its own. Finally, of course, searing spell exists, and you actually get access to searing conflagration the same level as you get the regular version, because you actually get the 5th-level slots before the third-level elite spell known. I'm aware that the leveller is basically going to be used in an environment where searing spell is known and standard (it's meant for fairly high-power play since the drawback of getting spells as powerful as heaven's roar is literally that you're not an incantatrix and had to burn a few skill points that you probably don't need).

Ah, I was under the impression that things like frozen solid depended in doing damage, I like it.

I feel like there is a better way to write this, but I can't think of one.
I'll look oveer it tomorrow, today was a ****ty day.

I'm very happy to see this. For a long time there was a PrC contest but it died off. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371403-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-Chat-Thread-VI is I think the final chat thread for it?
Yeah, there was talk of a rework contest a while back, and there was no PrC one going so, here it is :smallsmile:

So, I've got the core function of the class worked out(Clerical Divine, Druidic Divine and Psionic casting progressing are available), and have removed the food-generation requirement. Having trouble coming up with a name for feat use, so that's not done yet. Also having trouble with a name for Arcane progression, and will do the mental score increase crunch later.
I'll try to think of something, and if I do post it tomorrow.

Westhart
2017-11-08, 11:22 AM
Morphic Tide: Since arcane seems to be related to dragons in most D&D stuff (coughsorcerorscough) maybe teeth of the dragon? (Couldn't think of a name :smallbiggrin:)

Lanth Sor: I couldn't think of anything for the rewrite, but was wondering. Under internship they have to do menial tasks, under which you list quests... So... Can I be forced to enlist in the military, sent after a dragon (alright, that one probably stretches menial) or anything like that? Basically my problem is that you put quest, but didn't say anything along the lines of how far the quest can be... "Say, good chap could you go and fetch me volume VI of the Arts of Madness, Darkness and Depression? YOu'll find it in the library of Asmodeus, thanks!" :smalltongue:

Lanth Sor
2017-11-08, 12:42 PM
Yes that could be a possibility. The mentor is suppose to be a high level ally, so think Gandalf hes there, but he doesn't do anything.

Westhart
2017-11-08, 12:45 PM
Yes that could be a possibility. The mentor is suppose to be a high level ally, so think Gandalf hes there, but he doesn't do anything.

Fair enough then, I personally would say you can't send them against something with a CR higher then their level+~(5-10).

JoshuaZ
2017-11-08, 10:12 PM
Ok. My entry is now up. PEACH away!

JoshuaZ
2017-11-09, 08:54 PM
Some quick EACHing:

Wasp
No major comments. Looks really well done. The only quibble I have is with the entry requirements. 60 skill points is a large number of skill points for requirements even if it is intended for rogue entry. If a rogue has say +4 to int then they would have when they enter this a total of 144 skill points, so a little under half their skill points have to be put in to it. That may be ok, since they are all useful skills which are useful for rogues and are useful for Wasps. I'm not sure here.

Sneaky Hand
If I'm reading this correctly, a sufficiently smart wizard can enter this class at level 4, and wizard 3/rogue 1 can then enter at level 5. Normally PrCs are supposed to be harder to enter that early. Frankly, I'm fine with PrCs being easy to enter early (and think that making so few with low level entries is a major design flaw of 3.5 since most games end well before 20th level and unless one is in a setting like Forgotten Realms, a 6th level character can be very reasonably prestigious), so I'm more curious if this is intended to have such early entry. I don't think any of the basic class features are an issue if one is entering early.

Is there an issue with the "I Like This!" ability to be abused? Say PCs find an object of unknown nature. One of them puts in their pocket, knowing the Sneaky Hand PC will go and pull it out to identify it. Depending on how this is played, this could either be seen as abuse of the class feature, humorous, or breaking versimilitude. I'm not sure what to do since the feature is a fun one and makes me want to play a Sneaky Hand just for the regular use of this ability.

For the class feature Easy Casting it reads: "At 2nd level a Sneaky Hand cast some spells in light armor without invoking the normal arcane spell failure chance." which spells?

They never saw it coming is interesting but maybe a little too powerful? It also has two typos ("slight" and "wit"). I'd suggest a slightly weaker version as follows: "At 2nd level a Sneaky Hand has become so good at pick pocketing that only other pickpockets can realize that they are being pick pocketed. When you use sleight of hand your opponent takes a -5 penalty to their spot check unless they have at least 4 ranks in Sleight of Hand."

In Soul Stealing "any feats" should have a capitalized any. I'm not completely clear on what can be stolen if one can steal spellcasting like this, since spellcasting is normally written not as its own (ex) or (su) ability but has its own entry. Also, being able to steal spellcasting this way seems potentially overpowered. The idea behind the ability is really neat but more details are needed.

Hedge Mage
I really, really, like this PrC. Everything about it is well done, and it looks balanced even given the massive set of spells they can cast.
Entry requirements- The special requirement is a little ambiguous. If for example a sorcerer can only cast first and zeroth level spells and they then fail a will save against a second level spell, but then gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells and then fail a reflex save and a fort save against a 4th level spell, do they qualify?

Expanded Spell Knowledge- The ability is really cool. I could see this leading to problems with splatbook diving. It might make sense to have a note to DMs that if a PC is going to play a Hedge Mage then they should discuss with the DM before hand to make sure that they don't drastically slow down combat by spending forever thinking about what spell they are going to cast.
Also, the note on Expanded Spell Knowledge seems to have a minor formatting error with an extra italic close at the end.

Gutter Instincts is all good but "tus" should be "thus" I think.

Openminded refers to the class as "witch" (I'm guessing this was from an earlier draft). Also "ofr" should be "of" I think. I'm not sure what you mean by "and if such an effect would still affect her (Such as Dark Speech) it instead has no effect"- can you clarify?

Spell Transfusion- "Tey" should be "they" I think. This seems a bit powerful but for fourth level and lower spells seems ok. My guess is that this is not intended to remove spell components (V,S,M, etc.) but if so that should be stated explicitly since supernatural abilities don't have them. If it is intended to remove them, then this may be unbalanced.

Spell Chain- Says witch when you mean Hedge Mage.

Epic Hedgmage- This looks not complete yet, although most of it seems self-explanatory from the table.

Minimizer
Class idea is interesting. Definitely needs clarification on what abilities are (ex), which are (su) and which are (sp) since it isn't obvious for some of them. The entry requirement seems onerous. Yes, the Swiftblade has a similar thing, but using every single spell slot that way is tough. I'd suggest just requiring the ability to cast Reduce Person and make the special requirement that one has used it offensively in combat.


Dust Devil
I take it this used the desiccation rules from Sandstorm? If so, I'd state that explicitly as a note so there's no confusion. It isn't exactly the most well known splatbook.
My initial reaction was that the entry requirements were too high but given the power of the 4th and 5th level abilities, requiring 5th level spells seems about right. Overall, I like this PrC and it feels like it is one that should have been in Sandstorm in the first place(that is intended as high praise this uses the mechanics so naturally it seems like it should have been there all a long.)

Master of Needles
This PrC immediately brings to mind a certain scene in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (you probably know what I'm talking about).
One thing that jumps out is that this class is easier for a fighter to qualify for than a monk. This seems odd. I'd suggest in the entry requirements either BAB +6 or 5 levels in Monk.
One other thing I'd suggest is that they should at some point get a bonus to confirm critical hits with their needles- Maybe at level 1 they also add their class level to rolls to confirm critical hits?

Leveler
Well, for starters the picture and poem fit very well, and apparently Shelly's middle name was "Bysshe" which I didn't know, so yay. The central class feature is well done, and a lot of work clearly went into the spells and balancing them out. My only quibble is the name: given the fluff about leveling everything and point of the Shelly poem being how everything ultimately comes to naught, calling their central ability "elite spellcasting" seems odd. Unfortunately, I don't have a better name.

It might be nice also to give a few class features that let you explicitly damage buildings and structures more easily. They don't need to be strong (the class itself is pretty strong already) but it might help fit the theme a bit.

Hive Master

The first three levels seems to have fit its primary goals of being a non-evil hive focused class that is reasonably balanced. Bravo. There's something marked as "Special" in the last level in the table that doesn't seem to be explained in the PrC?


Singer of the Forbidden Song
Entry requirements Is this really evil? It seems like a non-good alignment restriction would make more sense. And Zazu seemed lawful good or lawful neutral in alignment (ok I know that part isn't serious).

Selective Hearing is a really good ability here to make this PrC playable. Is Selective Hearing and Debilitating Song also (ex) like the song itself? If so, that should be mentioned. (Also the ex-bard abilities should also have their type clarified). Overall, seems like a balanced and fun PrC that would be fun to play.

Mini-o-Mancer
This is hilarious.
"Rebuke Tiny Beings" I get that the class level rule is there for obvious reasons, but it would be pretty funny if they could actually order around even beings with *tiny* numbers of class levels. Maybe it should work on beings who have fewer class levels than half your number of levels in Minoi-o-Mancer?
Most of the class looks well balanced (I don't know the gramarie system well enough to comment on the option associated to that but the others seem fine.)

Dermagraphter
Ok, this is icky, and gross and creepy and I love it.

The Flay tatoos ability when they are applied to class features needs a little more clarification. Are these changes permanent? How would someone who has had them removed go about getting them back? Does the ability work on a Green Star Adept or Acolyte of the Skin of 10th level where the effect in question is explcitly throughout their body? I think more clarification is needed.

Aniikinis
2017-11-10, 01:09 AM
Wasp
No major comments. Looks really well done. The only quibble I have is with the entry requirements. 60 skill points is a large number of skill points for requirements even if it is intended for rogue entry. If a rogue has say +4 to int then they would have when they enter this a total of 144 skill points, so a little under half their skill points have to be put in to it. That may be ok, since they are all useful skills which are useful for rogues and are useful for Wasps. I'm not sure here.

Yeah, I figured that most people would have those maxed out as a general rule. I usually play the caster in my party but when I play a rogue those are the ones I always keep maxed.

Westhart
2017-11-10, 10:42 AM
Hedge Mage
I really, really, like this PrC. Everything about it is well done, and it looks balanced even given the massive set of spells they can cast.

Thanks :smallsmile:


Entry requirements- The special requirement is a little ambiguous. If for example a sorcerer can only cast first and zeroth level spells and they then fail a will save against a second level spell, but then gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells and then fail a reflex save and a fort save against a 4th level spell, do they qualify?

Changed it up:
Special: Must have failed a will save, reflex save, and fortitude save against 3 different spells that would have a negative effect.
Is that better?


Expanded Spell Knowledge- The ability is really cool. I could see this leading to problems with splatbook diving. It might make sense to have a note to DMs that if a PC is going to play a Hedge Mage then they should discuss with the DM before hand to make sure that they don't drastically slow down combat by spending forever thinking about what spell they are going to cast.

Ah yes, I'll add a note, was thinking of PbP when I wrote it honestly


Also, the note on Expanded Spell Knowledge seems to have a minor formatting error with an extra italic close at the end.

Gutter Instincts is all good but "tus" should be "thus" I think.

Thanks, fixed.


Openminded refers to the class as "witch" (I'm guessing this was from an earlier draft). Also "ofr" should be "of" I think. I'm not sure what you mean by "and if such an effect would still affect her (Such as Dark Speech) it instead has no effect"- can you clarify?

Witch was a base class I was trying to figure out, which died, burnt in an oven and came out as a muffin... Not sure how there but it did, seriously.
Darkspeech affects both evil and non-evil, however it would be best in that case to be evil as the effects are worse then when you are good, however it still has a negative effect (I don't have the BoVD with me atm). This way when it would be beneficial you can obtain alignment benefits, but when it isn't you still don't have to worry... Did that clear it up at all?


Spell Transfusion- "Tey" should be "they" I think. This seems a bit powerful but for fourth level and lower spells seems ok. My guess is that this is not intended to remove spell components (V,S,M, etc.) but if so that should be stated explicitly since supernatural abilities don't have them. If it is intended to remove them, then this may be unbalanced.

Components were purposely left out, as I felt it was balanced by the fact that most (I think all, 'cept for undead creating ones) spells with a costly material component 0-4 are low, and by the time that you get the more costly ones you barely even scratch your WBL. I also thought losing 5-9's was a big penalty that'd balance it as well. If you still feel it is too OP I'll say you have to pay any material etc costs, but otherwise keep it as is.
Fixed They.


Spell Chain- Says witch when you mean Hedge Mage.

Fixed.


Epic Hedgmage- This looks not complete yet, although most of it seems self-explanatory from the table.

Eh, I was going to let it just sit, but I'll add the text... Now.

Atomos Mage

Arcane Atoms: My first thought was that you did not get nearly enough, but then you do multiply by your casting stat, which (I assume you count magic items?) can get pretty high so it should be good
Does using arcane atoms bypass a level cap for damaging spells (So, if I am an 8th level atomosmage can I soup up my searing fireball?) I won't think it would be too bad as blasting (Even though that is a favorite thing to do) is usually seen as suboptimal.

Arcane Sensitivity: Love this, although my OCD makes me point out, your (Ex) should go before the colon; (Ex): :smallwink:
KNowing if an object is magical: So, if I pick up something with GMW on it does it register as a magic object? Also, I would let this apply to effects made from magic, such as a fire wall/of ice (if you don't have DeMa up you technically don't know it is magical :eyeroll:)
MR: well, this is alright but a wizard has a good will save... as do most full-casters (Try to think of one who doesn't, you might beat me :smallbiggrin:). Immediate action... do you need to use this before you see the outcome of your will save or after, for example:
DM: 'ey youse, make a will save
Player: Alright, [rolls]
DM: Awh, so close, but you needed a 12 not 11.
Player: Actually...

BF: Meh, not gonna kill you, although 1 of them isn't very nice... maybe 2 XD

Bodily Integrity: have some small typing error; "full spell into your body. . You "

I was thinking, for BI and MR Maybe combine them and give them Mettle (per hexblade) activated by spending points? (Then you could work in another feature as well if you combined them like that :smalltongue:)

EC: Nice... although with buffing saves, and everything else I would reduce the cost to 3 points

DtD: Maybe gain some when you cast a spell unaugmented by arcane atoms as well as how it is now?

PP: The problem here is that caster level is (apparently) extremely easy to bump over 60... so maybe level in classes that advance arcane spellcasting (which would still allow UM to qualify twice... hmm.)

Ability Idea: The ability to "steal" atoms from the energy of other mages casting spells. For example if Mr Archmage drops a couple Orb of X you get a few atomos points... I would base the gain rate off... maybe the square root of SL+CL?

the feats:
Atomos Focus: This is better then the feat that gives +4 points, and if playing a game with retraining (and not starting at higher level anyways) then I would start with the +4 (if I needed it) and later retrain for this... I would in fact add:
Special: Upon reaching 8th level this feat may be changed out for Atomos Focus.
to the other for those games that don't use retraining.

Atomos Hoarder: Seems fair enough

AM: Don't have enough experience with psionics

AT: seems alright, not really much going on here, just for the dual casters. Would work nicely in gestalt though.

AC: you give HP 1:1 and I would also say: for every 4 hit points that you grant the creature it gains a +1 enhancement bonus to strength, con, or dexterit at your choice. The effects of this feat stack with themselves.

AN: maybe something like the feats from libris mortis allowing you to add some bonuses to their physical stats? Also, this should be able to improve turn resistance.

OA: Don't do binding (have the book, haven't had the time to read it) but seems you have a text error; "First, you may when you make a" I would take out the you may, or switch it "First, when you make a binding check you may..."

RA: I would make this points equal to the spell level you dispel, also forgot some other dispel stuff, I would just say spells that dispel as just in core there is also MD... which most don't use, but it is there... non-core there is dispelling screen off the top of my head.

Very interesting, and the rest of the feats seem to be good.

Jormengand
2017-11-10, 11:30 AM
Leveler
Well, for starters the picture and poem fit very well, and apparently Shelly's middle name was "Bysshe" which I didn't know, so yay.

Truly, the greatest middle name of all.


The central class feature is well done, and a lot of work clearly went into the spells and balancing them out. My only quibble is the name: given the fluff about leveling everything and point of the Shelly poem being how everything ultimately comes to naught, calling their central ability "elite spellcasting" seems odd. Unfortunately, I don't have a better name.

Elite spellcasting isn't really more of a specific name than spellcasting is. Spellcasting doesn't have to have anything to do with nature or gods or draconic bloodlines because that's just a thing that's generic about classes. I appreciate that not having any other elite casters (yet!) makes it seem like it's the leveller's personal shtick, but it isn't - only the specific elite spell list is, the same way that wizards aren't unique because they cast spells but because of which ones and how.


It might be nice also to give a few class features that let you explicitly damage buildings and structures more easily. They don't need to be strong (the class itself is pretty strong already) but it might help fit the theme a bit.

Maybe. I admit that I'm having trouble finding ideas for features that fit the theme, do enough that you won't forget you have them, and don't push the already-high power of the class too much.

JoshuaZ
2017-11-10, 12:22 PM
Thanks :smallsmile:

Changed it up:
Special: Must have failed a will save, reflex save, and fortitude save against 3 different spells that would have a negative effect.
Is that better?





Yes, that does clear it up. Maybe add that as an example so it is clear how this functions?

[quote]
Components were purposely left out, as I felt it was balanced by the fact that most (I think all, 'cept for undead creating ones) spells with a costly material component 0-4 are low, and by the time that you get the more costly ones you barely even scratch your WBL. I also thought losing 5-9's was a big penalty that'd balance it as well. If you still feel it is too OP I'll say you have to pay any material etc costs, but otherwise keep it as is.

Probably not an issue.




Arcane Atoms: My first thought was that you did not get nearly enough, but then you do multiply by your casting stat, which (I assume you count magic items?) can get pretty high so it should be good


Actually, you only add the casting stat. Should it be multiplied? Honestly, I'm not really sure what the correct number is here. Getting the right total number of points is the one design issue that I had the most difficulty with.



Does using arcane atoms bypass a level cap for damaging spells (So, if I am an 8th level atomosmage can I soup up my searing fireball?) I won't think it would be too bad as blasting (Even though that is a favorite thing to do) is usually seen as suboptimal.

I wasn't thinking of it doing so, but given that one is spending extra resources to do it, it would probably be reasonably balanced to let them do so and would make their abilities a little more unique. Language to that effect added.




Arcane Sensitivity: Love this, although my OCD makes me point out, your (Ex) should go before the colon; (Ex): :smallwink:


Fixed.


KNowing if an object is magical: So, if I pick up something with GMW on it does it register as a magic object? Also, I would let this apply to effects made from magic, such as a fire wall/of ice (if you don't have DeMa up you technically don't know it is magical :eyeroll:)

That was essentially the intent. I'll add a bit more text to clarify that.



MR: well, this is alright but a wizard has a good will save... as do most full-casters (Try to think of one who doesn't, you might beat me :smallbiggrin:). Immediate action... do you need to use this before you see the outcome of your will save or after, for example:
DM: 'ey youse, make a will save
Player: Alright, [rolls]
DM: Awh, so close, but you needed a 12 not 11.
Player: Actually...



Clarified so that after roll before find out success or failure.



BF: Meh, not gonna kill you, although 1 of them isn't very nice... maybe 2 XD


The class is only 8 levels long, so I'm not sure where to stick another one. And sticking a second at the same level seems a bit much?




Bodily Integrity: have some small typing error; "full spell into your body. . You "


Fixed.



I was thinking, for BI and MR Maybe combine them and give them Mettle (per hexblade) activated by spending points? (Then you could work in another feature as well if you combined them like that :smalltongue:)


Hmm, I'll think about this and then have to make a decision on this later. That might be a function of what other class feature to give. If you have a suggestion I'll be happy to think about it.



EC: Nice... although with buffing saves, and everything else I would reduce the cost to 3 points


Changed.



DtD: Maybe gain some when you cast a spell unaugmented by arcane atoms as well as how it is now?


Hmm, that seems reasonable. Maybe the spell level/3, which would help with the issue of the total number of AA not being too high?





PP: The problem here is that caster level is (apparently) extremely easy to bump over 60... so maybe level in classes that advance arcane spellcasting (which would still allow UM to qualify twice... hmm.)

Hmm. I think a reasonable wording on that would be that a UM would only advance that once. I'll just say any class levels or prestige class levels which advance arcane spellcasting and then note explicitly that classes like UM only count once.



Ability Idea: The ability to "steal" atoms from the energy of other mages casting spells. For example if Mr Archmage drops a couple Orb of X you get a few atomos points... I would base the gain rate off... maybe the square root of SL+CL?

Hmm, maybe? I worry about putting in square roots into a class feature because it might already be seen as too mathy and intimidating when one is using so many fiddly bits? Also, where to put it? Maybe if combine the two integrity abilities, put this at 5th level? I'll have to think about it.




the feats:
Atomos Focus: This is better then the feat that gives +4 points, and if playing a game with retraining (and not starting at higher level anyways) then I would start with the +4 (if I needed it) and later retrain for this... I would in fact add:
Special: Upon reaching 8th level this feat may be changed out for Atomos Focus.
to the other for those games that don't use retraining.


I think you meant Extra Atomos here, but yes, good point, will do.




AT: seems alright, not really much going on here, just for the dual casters. Would work nicely in gestalt though.


Oh, hmm. I didn't think about the gestalt context. Is it balanced there? I haven't thought about it that much, but I think it would be nice but not breaking.



AC: you give HP 1:1 and I would also say: for every 4 hit points that you grant the creature it gains a +1 enhancement bonus to strength, con, or dexterit at your choice. The effects of this feat stack with themselves.
Good call done.



AN: maybe something like the feats from libris mortis allowing you to add some bonuses to their physical stats? Also, this should be able to improve turn resistance.


The concern is precisely that I wanted this reasonably balanced with the Book of Bad Latin in terms of people making really strong undead using the corpsecrafter line of feats and this. Would adding more to physical stats be balanced with that? I'm not sure. I agree about turning and have added that.



OA: Don't do binding (have the book, haven't had the time to read it) but seems you have a text error; "First, you may when you make a" I would take out the you may, or switch it "First, when you make a binding check you may..."

Binder is absolutely awesome and flavorful and wonderful, and you should read it. And fixed.




RA: I would make this points equal to the spell level you dispel, also forgot some other dispel stuff, I would just say spells that dispel as just in core there is also MD... which most don't use, but it is there... non-core there is dispelling screen off the top of my head.

Fixed.

Westhart
2017-11-10, 12:45 PM
[quote[
Yes, that does clear it up. Maybe add that as an example so it is clear how this functions?

Will do.


Actually, you only add the casting stat. Should it be multiplied? Honestly, I'm not really sure what the correct number is here. Getting the right total number of points is the one design issue that I had the most difficulty with.

I thought you multiplied level+stat by 2?


The class is only 8 levels long, so I'm not sure where to stick another one. And sticking a second at the same level seems a bit much?

Fair enough, I was thinking form a 10 level point of view, my bad :smallredface:


Hmm, I'll think about this and then have to make a decision on this later. That might be a function of what other class feature to give. If you have a suggestion I'll be happy to think about it.

Besides the one that I already said nothing atm


Hmm, that seems reasonable. Maybe the spell level/3, which would help with the issue of the total number of AA not being too high?

yeah, that'd be nice.


Hmm. I think a reasonable wording on that would be that a UM would only advance that once. I'll just say any class levels or prestige class levels which advance arcane spellcasting and then note explicitly that classes like UM only count once.

Yeah, that works


Hmm, maybe? I worry about putting in square roots into a class feature because it might already be seen as too mathy and intimidating when one is using so many fiddly bits? Also, where to put it? Maybe if combine the two integrity abilities, put this at 5th level? I'll have to think about it.

Fair enough
[/quote]
Oh, hmm. I didn't think about the gestalt context. Is it balanced there? I haven't thought about it that much, but I think it would be nice but not breaking.
I prefer it over non-gestalt honestly and think it would be fine.


The concern is precisely that I wanted this reasonably balanced with the Book of Bad Latin in terms of people making really strong undead using the corpsecrafter line of feats and this. Would adding more to physical stats be balanced with that? I'm not sure. I agree about turning and have added that.

Ah, yeah the dedicated necromancer will prob have them anyhow. Fair enough then.


Binder is absolutely awesome and flavorful and wonderful, and you should read it. And fixed.

I'll give it a look... possibly soon, depending on what I have to do this weekend...

Morphic tide
2017-11-12, 10:10 AM
Hive Master

The first three levels seems to have fit its primary goals of being a non-evil hive focused class that is reasonably balanced. Bravo. There's something marked as "Special" in the last level in the table that doesn't seem to be explained in the PrC?

Thanks for the compliment. Note that you change the picks for the casting "progression" each day, so you can grab whatever (available) power source you wish for it. I should probably add a line or two stopping that progression from breeching your actual character level, just so that builds with bloated Will and Knowledge(Nature) can't get away with accelerated casting and thus have to "settle for" getting stuff in other power sources.

As for the Special thing, that's a place holder for feat access. I've settled on having it be the Swarm that selects feats for itself, using your statline, but I can't quite figure out what to do with the name to fit the "Ten Thousand X of Y" thing I'm doing. With just five more days left, I kinda need to figure that out...

Also, Ten Thousand Touches of Thought is done. And I changed the limiter from Intelligence skill bonus to only care about Intelligence modifier, so you need a +10 Int modifier to have the full 30 HD pre-Epic. This isn't that hard to get, but it prevents dumping of Int for non-Wizard/Archivist entries, as intended. A minimum of 13 Int or a +6 Int item is needed to get it. And to fully outweigh the penalties eats huge amounts of character resources because you have a -34 penalty to all skills from two ability scores.

Westhart
2017-11-12, 10:35 AM
As for the Special thing, that's a place holder for feat access. I've settled on having it be the Swarm that selects feats for itself, using your statline, but I can't quite figure out what to do with the name to fit the "Ten Thousand X of Y" thing I'm doing. With just five more days left, I kinda need to figure that out...


Note, I am willing to extend the deadline if you need it :smallsmile:

JoshuaZ
2017-11-12, 10:47 AM
Ok. I moved Bodily Integrity and Mental Resilience into a single ability, moved Dust to Dust down, and then added a new ability "Salvage Arcana" to 7th level which uses the recovery mechanic of making a save against an arcane spell. I've used your square root suggestion with a slight tweak to make sure that it doesn't give too many points. Hopefully if someone is already willing to play a PrC with this many fiddly bits they wont mind taking a square root on occasion.

Westhart
2017-11-12, 10:57 AM
Ok. I moved Bodily Integrity and Mental Resilience into a single ability, moved Dust to Dust down, and then added a new ability "Salvage Arcana" to 7th level which uses the recovery mechanic of making a save against an arcane spell. I've used your square root suggestion with a slight tweak to make sure that it doesn't give too many points. Hopefully if someone is already willing to play a PrC with this many fiddly bits they wont mind taking a square root on occasion.

For some reason I hear the word calculator... of course I play a lot of online or with other people who have calculators on them...

Morphic tide
2017-11-12, 12:54 PM
Note, I am willing to extend the deadline if you need it :smallsmile:

Oh, don't worry, I just googled "synonyms of shard" and used what came up. The big thing is that I didn't want any alliteration outside of Ten Thousand Touches of Thought. In fact, I'm finishing up that last feature right now.

Westhart
2017-11-12, 12:55 PM
Oh, don't worry, I just googled "synonyms of shard" and used what came up. The big thing is that I didn't want any alliteration outside of Ten Thousand Touches of Thought. In fact, I'm finishing up that last feature right now.

Ah, alright then :smallsmile:

neriractor
2017-11-13, 04:58 PM
Alright, so I finally decided to actually put up a part of the class and thus motivate myself to finishing it :smallbiggrin:

Iīm not sure if I should book a space for the spore types, I plan on making 16 (already done with a few) and each having about three manifestations but Iīm not too familiar with the word limit on the forums or if reserving a post is just done so that you may link it more easily, most of the class is not there but whatever limited PEACH can be given from that small tidbit Iīll appreciate.

Westhart
2017-11-13, 05:10 PM
PEACH for what's there:
"The Mycologistīs pool of spores is equal to: (class level*2) +your highest physical ability modifier, and it refills at the rate of 1/30 minutes in all non-planar terrains not mentioned here, 1/10 minutes in the underdark, forest and jungle terrain, 1/hour in more inhospitable terrain, such as frost fell, desert or the elemental plane of fire. "

1) I'd make it Con, as that makes more sense.
2) Recharge time... Maybe 10/20/30 minutes since they do not regain them daily this lets most things get most of their spores back with a 8 hour rest. See below.

"and a bonus on saving throws against poison and diseases equal to ― his mycologist level rounded up."
Eh, could probably be immunity honestly

Part of the System:
This addresses my problems with number 2 above.

"the Mycologist is got such a"
Get rid of got

Rest looks good!

Ability Ideas:
Something for debuffing, for example moving spore cloud down a couple levels and letting him "contaminate" other creatures. If you don't want to move it down then you can maybe add a swarm burst ability "enemies must make a fortitude save or be unable to act for 1/2 your level rounds as they sneeze and choke" that would then apply to the spore cloud.

JoshuaZ
2017-11-14, 10:29 AM
Added one magic item and one minor artifact to the entry for the Atomos Mage. I think everything is hopefully done now.

Westhart
2017-11-14, 10:30 AM
Done? But I have a whole other half to add...

I was kidding :smallsmile:.

Entries must be finished by Friday, and I'll try to check them over + get voting thread up on friday as well.

neriractor
2017-11-14, 11:55 AM
PEACH for what's there:
-snip-

1) I'd make it Con, as that makes more sense.
2) Recharge time... Maybe 10/20/30 minutes since they do not regain them daily this lets most things get most of their spores back with a 8 hour rest.

"and a bonus on saving throws against poison and diseases equal to ― his mycologist level rounded up."
Eh, could probably be immunity honestly

I made it the highest physical ability score so that you could play a squishier character if you want to, just foregoing abilities that use saving throws but thematically Con does make more sense so Iīll see about that.

Yeah, I guess Iīll give inmunity right off the bat.


"the Mycologist is got such a"
Get rid of got

Rest looks good!

but it is got it! :smalltongue:


Ability Ideas:
Something for debuffing, for example moving spore cloud down a couple levels and letting him "contaminate" other creatures. If you don't want to move it down then you can maybe add a swarm burst ability "enemies must make a fortitude save or be unable to act for 1/2 your level rounds as they sneeze and choke" that would then apply to the spore cloud.

several of the manifestations allow for debuffing but I like the swarm burst idea.

Thanks for the peaching!

Important edit: could you extend the deadline to be on tuesday? Iīve roughly 12 out of the 16 spore types I wanted to make but my weekend just got suddenly packed and I donīt think Iīll be able to actually do anything during it, I could post the 12 spore types and be done with it but I like for things that have a limited number of choices to get at least twice their number of choices as options, so you can have two fully made characters using the same options be completely different.

Ranged Ranger
2017-11-17, 05:08 AM
Hope I'm not to late, just added mine... Somehow didn't see this until Wednesday evening, so didn't have much time, but inspiration did strike.... Please PEACH

Aniikinis
2017-11-17, 06:18 AM
Hope I'm not to late, just added mine... Somehow didn't see this until Wednesday evening, so didn't have much time, but inspiration did strike.... Please PEACH

Here we go.


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: Mounted Combat
Skills: Ride 9, Handle Animal 6, Move Silently 6, Hide 4
Special: Friendly encounter with a warrior of one of the Fey courts

I'm not sure about your reasoning with the skills. Also what if the player is wanting to play this class in a setting without the Fey Courts?


Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: If they do not already have Martial weapon proficiency, the Sparrow Rider gains proficiency with the lance and shortbow.

Useful, not much to say.


Slightly Riding: You may allow a potential mount to treat you as one size category smaller. This allows you to ride a creature of your normal size. Divide your weight and your equipment’s weight by 8 to determine the mount’s load.

Shared Breathing: At 2nd level, if you or your mount are able to breath without harm in your environment, then both of you can. This persists for 2 rounds after you cease to be riding the mount.

Slightly Riding is alright the way it is. Shared Breathing is extremely useful, especially if you want to, say, use a manta ray to dive to the deepest parts of the sea around a massive crater and possibly enter the city within it. Please get that reference...


Special Riding: Starting at 3rd level, you can grant your mount one additional movement speed. Switching between these is a standard action. You gain Leaf Walking at 3rd level, Mole Speed at 4th, Foam Rider at 6th, and Leaf on the Wind at 7th.
Leaf Walking: Your mount gains a climb speed equal to its base speed while you ride it and for 2 rounds thereafter.
Mole Speed: Your mount gains a climbburrow speed equal to its base speed while you ride it and for 2 rounds thereafter.
Foam Rider: Your mount gains a swim speed equal to its base speed while you ride it and for 2 rounds thereafter.
Leaf on the Wind: Your mount gains a fly speed equal to 2x its base speed (good maneuverability) while you ride it and for 2 rounds thereafter.

I have a few things to say about this:
Leaf Walking: Very useful, albeit outclassed by Spider Climb(Which the caster probably already has at the earliest level you could take this PrC. :smallsigh:) being cast upon the mount.
Mole Speed: I'm pretty sure you meant Burrow instead of climb there. Personally I'd put this after Foam Rider due to the power inherent in the burrow ability.
Foam Rider: Useful, albeit you could just buy a boat and crew at this level. I'd probably also give the creature the ability to breathe underwater for the duration as well, but that's just me.
Leaf on the Wind: There are things that I want to say but I can't articulate just how bad this ability truly is from the current RAW of it The intention is very good, don't get me wrong, but the execution isn't quite as elegant as it should be.

Now, I understand the reasoning behind using base speed, which on most land-based creatures is very good. However, if you were to, say, ride an eagle, you wouldn't get the 80 ft (average) fly speed of the eagle, you would get the 20 ft (good) fly speed the class grants it (unless I've understood that wrong). Not to mention that usually the smaller the creature the slower it is (in dnd anyways), which is why most small creatures have alternate modes of movement. This adds insult to injury if I were to ride my manta ray off the crest of a giant wave and it only dives back down into the sea due to it not having a base land speed. Which brings up another point: What if the creature you are riding has low or nonexistent base land speed but good or great speeds in other forms of movement?
(Note: I didn't intend to use a manta ray for this example, I was just expanding upon the earlier scenario and was unaware until I started typing the bit about small creatures and movement that the manta ray was an actual animal within the SRD. So... Yeah. Awesome. :smallbiggrin:)

Personally, I'd make it a flat flying ability with maneuverability and speed that scales with levels in the class and grants bonus speed based upon the lowest of the other speeds the mount would have. Like a Fly Speed equal to 5(or 10)*the Number of Sparrow Rider Class Levels (meaning the mount would have 35 or 70 ft fly speed at the level you gain the ability) starting at good maneuverability and gaining perfect at level 9.


Smaller Riding: At 5th level, you can actually become smaller when riding. This functions as Reduce person, except your strength does not change. This does not stack with Slightly Riding.
Why not have it stack at this stage and increase the limit for small mounts at the capstone?


Shared Breathlessness: At 8th level, neither you nor your mount need to breathe.
Useful, not much to say here.


Ride Small: At 9th level, your Slightly Riding and Smaller Riding stack. While you are only one size category smaller than your normal size, you can select mounts as if you were 2 size categories smaller than normal and you divide your weight and your equipment’s weight by 64 to determine its load. Your strength is still the same as when you are at normal size.

So let me get this straight. If a human were to get this ability, they could be considered small and ride mounts of the Tiny and Diminutive sizes? That's fine and really gives the name to the class as Sparrows are diminutive creatures. But if it's instead they can ride mounts of the small and tiny sizes then it's a little underwhelming to say the least. And if it's that you can only ride things of the Medium or small size then that's even more underwhelming.

Westhart
2017-11-17, 07:55 AM
Missed a request earlier, I will extend the deadline until Tuesday for all submissions.

daremetoidareyo
2017-11-17, 11:27 AM
Missed a request earlier, I will extend the deadline until Tuesday for all submissions.

Thanks, that gives me time to touch up the dermagraphter.

Ranged Ranger
2017-11-17, 12:13 PM
I'm not sure about your reasoning with the skills. Also what if the player is wanting to play this class in a setting without the Fey Courts?
May need to change those prereq skills... some of them are for class features I didn't end up giving the class (Invisibility as a Su, some offensive Spell-like abilities)... Unless I should add those in somewhere? hmmm....

Slightly Riding is alright the way it is. Shared Breathing is extremely useful, especially if you want to, say, use a manta ray to dive to the deepest parts of the sea around a massive crater and possibly enter the city within it. Please get that reference...
DMG guidelines for appropriate mounts:
At least one size category larger than the character. Also, a flying mount can carry no more than a light load aloft.
Unless there's an errata to that section that I didn't see? Note that this feature doesn't actually change your size - this should let a medium creature ride a medium mount and a small creature ride a small mount...

Not sure, I have seen multiple works that used manta rays for traveling to Atlantis or a setting equivellant...


I have a few things to say about this:
Leaf Walking: Very useful, albeit outclassed by Spider Climb(Which the caster probably already has at the earliest level you could take this PrC. :smallsigh:) being cast upon the mount.
Mole Speed: I'm pretty sure you meant Burrow instead of climb there. Personally I'd put this after Foam Rider due to the power inherent in the burrow ability.
Foam Rider: Useful, albeit you could just buy a boat and crew at this level. I'd probably also give the creature the ability to breathe underwater for the duration as well, but that's just me.
Fixed Mole speed and switched it with foam speed... haven't decided on water breathing... as is you're only needing one spell/item to grant the ability to both mount and rider, or if you or the mount already have the ability then you both already have it... my old DM would have had a fit, but then again it was supposed to be a sailing/ship based setting...

Leaf on the Wind: There are things that I want to say but I can't articulate just how bad this ability truly is from the current RAW of it The intention is very good, don't get me wrong, but the execution isn't quite as elegant as it should be.

Now, I understand the reasoning behind using base speed, which on most land-based creatures is very good. However, if you were to, say, ride an eagle, you wouldn't get the 80 ft (average) fly speed of the eagle, you would get the 20 ft (good) fly speed the class grants it (unless I've understood that wrong). Not to mention that usually the smaller the creature the slower it is (in dnd anyways), which is why most small creatures have alternate modes of movement. This adds insult to injury if I were to ride my manta ray off the crest of a giant wave and it only dives back down into the sea due to it not having a base land speed. Which brings up another point: What if the creature you are riding has low or nonexistent base land speed but good or great speeds in other forms of movement?
(Note: I didn't intend to use a manta ray for this example, I was just expanding upon the earlier scenario and was unaware until I started typing the bit about small creatures and movement that the manta ray was an actual animal within the SRD. So... Yeah. Awesome. :smallbiggrin:)

Personally, I'd make it a flat flying ability with maneuverability and speed that scales with levels in the class and grants bonus speed based upon the lowest of the other speeds the mount would have. Like a Fly Speed equal to 5(or 10)*the Number of Sparrow Rider Class Levels (meaning the mount would have 35 or 70 ft fly speed at the level you gain the ability) starting at good maneuverability and gaining perfect at level 9.
I said base speed, not base land speed? Pretty sure that just means what the creature gets from its racial stat block before any speed enhancements are granted... Would it be better to say "...highest base speed"?


Why not have it stack at this stage and increase the limit for small mounts at the capstone?


Useful, not much to say here.



So let me get this straight. If a human were to get this ability, they could be considered small and ride mounts of the Tiny and Diminutive sizes? That's fine and really gives the name to the class as Sparrows are diminutive creatures. But if it's instead they can ride mounts of the small and tiny sizes then it's a little underwhelming to say the least. And if it's that you can only ride things of the Medium or small size then that's even more underwhelming.
May have over nerfed this during the writing... fixed...

Aniikinis
2017-11-17, 12:31 PM
May need to change those prereq skills... some of them are for class features I didn't end up giving the class (Invisibility as a Su, some offensive Spell-like abilities)... Unless I should add those in somewhere? hmmm....

Ahhh okay. Those could be useful, but I wouldn't be too pressed on it. I mean it is a fairly short class. It's a little light on it's features but it still has no dead levels. Some offensive power would be useful, but it's already bonkers for a charger build.


DMG guidelines for appropriate mounts:
-snip-
Unless there's an errata to that section that I didn't see? Note that this feature doesn't actually change your size - this should let a medium creature ride a medium mount and a small creature ride a small mount...
Fully aware of that. I was saying that I didn't find any flaws with it.


Not sure, I have seen multiple works that used manta rays for traveling to Atlantis or a setting equivalent...
Pokemon RSE getting a mantine ported over and using surf and dive to reach Sootopolis City.



Fixed Mole speed and switched it with foam speed... haven't decided on water breathing... as is you're only needing one spell/item to grant the ability to both mount and rider, or if you or the mount already have the ability then you both already have it... my old DM would have had a fit, but then again it was supposed to be a sailing/ship based setting...
You'll have to fix it on the table too, it still gives it to you at the same level as before. Give a horse a Swim Speed, it neither has the ability to breathe water nor look normal while swimming, if it dives you are both screwed. Also, it would save on gold and spells, which are generally useful things.


I said base speed, not base land speed? Pretty sure that just means what the creature gets from its racial stat block before any speed enhancements are granted... Would it be better to say "...highest base speed"?
The problem with that is that in 3.5 the term Base Speed refers to Base Land Speed. In all creature entries you will find every other form of movement has the mode of movement defined after the base land speed. For example:

Speed: Swim 30 ft. (6 squares)
No Base Speed, different form of movement.

Speed: Fly 30 ft. (perfect) (6 squares)
No Base Speed, different form of movement.

Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), burrow 20 ft., swim 10 ft.
Base Speed, and two other different forms of movement
As you can see, every form of movement has been defined save the one for base movement over land by using feet/legs/etc.

Using the term as you were using it leads to a very confusing point where the terminology gets mixed up and it becomes a nightmare for DMs and Players alike who wish to use this.


May have over nerfed this during the writing... fixing...
Yeah, I can agree with that

Lanth Sor
2017-11-17, 01:17 PM
I would appropriate some Peach for probably the worst idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22542272&postcount=14) I have ever had. That's saying a lot.

Ranged Ranger
2017-11-17, 01:25 PM
You'll have to fix it on the table too, it still gives it to you at the same level as before. Give a horse a Swim Speed, it neither has the ability to breathe water nor look normal while swimming, if it dives you are both screwed. Also, it would save on gold and spells, which are generally useful things.
Fixed and added...


The problem with that is that in 3.5 the term Base Speed refers to Base Land Speed. In all creature entries you will find every other form of movement has the mode of movement defined after the base land speed. For example:

No Base Speed, different form of movement.

No Base Speed, different form of movement.

Base Speed, and two other different forms of movement
As you can see, every form of movement has been defined save the one for base movement over land by using feet/legs/etc.

Using the term as you were using it leads to a very confusing point where the terminology gets mixed up and it becomes a nightmare for DMs and Players alike who wish to use this.
Was going by the definition WotC published in the Rules of The Game Article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040608a):
A creature's speed rating before applying any enhancements (usually from magic or from a class feature) or reductions (usually from encumbrance or other impediments) is called its base speed. Although on second look, that definition may have been more closely tied to the previous paragraph than I had interpreteed it... Is there a term that has the meaning I wanted?

Jormengand
2017-11-17, 01:30 PM
Incidentally, does anyone have any comment on the actual elite spells for Leveller (other than "Rargleblargle wielding power that's bigger than you to fight things bigger than you has nothing to do with being small rargleblargle")? I'm not sure about a few of them... is Starstorm actually now viable as a ninth-level spell at decent OP levels, or is it too much, or even not enough? Is Abominate Metal or Stone actually a good eighth-level spell? Is Heaven's Roar too strong or too unwieldy? Is the Curse of Corrosion too plot-spellish? Can you actually grok Gravity Hammer? Is Plague worth casting except to mess with cities? And so forth.

Aniikinis
2017-11-17, 01:38 PM
Was going by the definition WotC published in the Rules of The Game Article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040608a): Although on second look, that definition may have been more closely tied to the previous paragraph than I had interpreteed it... Is there a term that has the meaning I wanted?

I'm afraid that there isn't that I've been able to tell. Spells, items, and stat blocks assume that the main mode of movement is Base Land Speed. You can clarify this by adding a bit of text that says "(or highest move speed)" or something, or you could just as easily make it similar to what I posted earlier. DnD is just a very fun system to work in, right? :smallyuk:

Ranged Ranger
2017-11-17, 01:40 PM
I would appropriate some Peach for probably the worst idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22542272&postcount=14) I have ever had. That's saying a lot.
Flavorwise, it's great as an April Fool's type class... It might be a fun way to make NPC versions of various classes (probably rename it Apprentice X class to fit into standard settings...


Internship (EX): -SNIP- If your current professional level is less then your class level +5 then you must seek out a new professional to learn from, and cannot gain additional levels until you find a new professional. Experience accumulated while searching for a new professional is put in a side pool. Once a new professional is acquired, the XP is gained at a rate of 500 x the new professional's level in the chosen class per week.
Assuming the bolded is only until the pool is used up? Need to specify that...

Does Got my Certificate convert the Intern Levels into Levels of the class you were interning in?

Aniikinis
2017-11-17, 01:44 PM
Incidentally, does anyone have any comment on the actual elite spells for Leveller (other than "Rargleblargle wielding power that's bigger than you to fight things bigger than you has nothing to do with being small rargleblargle")? I'm not sure about a few of them... is Starstorm actually now viable as a ninth-level spell at decent OP levels, or is it too much, or even not enough? Is Abominate Metal or Stone actually a good eighth-level spell? Is Heaven's Roar too strong or too unwieldy? Is the Curse of Corrosion too plot-spellish? Can you actually grok Gravity Hammer? Is Plague worth casting except to mess with cities? And so forth.

To be fair, if I was ever going to use any of those spells, I'd be a CE caster with a grudge against those snobby paladins in that shining city. I really doubt that they're much stronger than Gate, Wish, or anything like that. To be frank, I'd say they're pretty average for spells of their level from around SL4 or so. The ones on the lower levels I'd love to take but they're not really OP or anything.

Ranged Ranger
2017-11-17, 01:48 PM
I'm afraid that there isn't that I've been able to tell. Spells, items, and stat blocks assume that the main mode of movement is Base Land Speed. You can clarify this by adding a bit of text that says "(or highest move speed)" or something, or you could just as easily make it similar to what I posted earlier. DnD is just a very fun system to work in, right? :smallyuk:

Changed base speed to highest natural speed in all cases... hope that works...

Still considering adding the features I left out (invisibility, spell-like attacks) back in...

Jormengand
2017-11-17, 01:51 PM
I really doubt that they're much stronger than Gate, Wish, or anything like that.

In the hands of someone with their eye on ruining the game, maybe. A possible "Fix" rolling around in my head for spells like Gate, Wish, Shapechange, Polymorph, PAO, Planar Binding and a few others is just to make them elite, honestly. Force someone to take levels in Currently Nameless Elite Summoner or Currently Nameless Elite Transmuter instead of incantatrix if they want to get access to all that.

Morphic tide
2017-11-17, 03:11 PM
In the hands of someone with their eye on ruining the game, maybe. A possible "Fix" rolling around in my head for spells like Gate, Wish, Shapechange, Polymorph, PAO, Planar Binding and a few others is just to make them elite, honestly. Force someone to take levels in Currently Nameless Elite Summoner or Currently Nameless Elite Transmuter instead of incantatrix if they want to get access to all that.

One thing to do to the Elite classes is to make them proper specialists, with bonuses relevant to the form of magic they use. Stuff like giving the Leveller automatic Extend/Widen spell if it wouldn't push the effective spell level over their current maximum Elite Spell Level Known. The wording would also neatly prevent using the feature to go over the normal limit on metamagic...

Ranged Ranger
2017-11-17, 03:32 PM
Still haven't decided if I should add these or what level yet, but here they are if your interested:
Invisible Rider (Su): 3/day you and your mount become invisible as per the invisibility spell.

Spell-like abilities: Faerie Fire, Sleep Strike, Euphoric Strike, and Elemental Strike

I’m thinking Faerie Fire at will, Sleep Strike 1/day or 1/encounter gaining one (/encounter) or two (/day) additional uses as you level, Euphoric Strike and Elemental Strike 3/day or 5/day… Sparrow Riders use ECL as CL.

I think these spells or something very similar should already exist, but since I didn’t see them in the SRD I created them…
Euphoric Strike: One creature within 60 feet is staggered, sickened, and immune to fear effects for 1d6 rounds per 5 CL.

Elemental Strike: A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+X points of your choice of Fire, Cold, Electricity, or Acid damage. X is 5 for fire, 4 for cold, 3 for electricity, and 1 for acid. The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell. For every five CL increase the hit die by one step: 1d6 at CL 5, 1d8 at CL 10, 1d10 at CL 15, and 1d12 at CL 20.

Sleep Strike: One creature within 90 feet who has fewer HD than your caster level, falls into a magical sleep for one minute per 5 CL. The creature can be awakened early if it takes 3 hp in damage per minute remaining of the affect or by being shaken with a strength check DC 10 + CL.

EDIT: Went ahead and added them, with some slight adjustments...

Lanth Sor
2017-11-17, 04:22 PM
Flavorwise, it's great as an April Fool's type class... It might be a fun way to make NPC versions of various classes (probably rename it Apprentice X class to fit into standard settings...

It is actually intended to be taken kinda serious, but not Crash the sky. So balance critique would be very appreciated. Why make something that never sees play?



Assuming the bolded is only until the pool is used up? Need to specify that...

Correct thanks for the catch.



Does Got my Certificate convert the Intern Levels into Levels of the class you were interning in?

The levels don't convert they just count as levels. so you would still be a level 10 intern level 1 wizard at level 11. But you would have the caster level and spells per day of a level 16 wizard and the max spell level of a level 11 wizard.

Its a class intended to instill salt into the player until they hit level 11 and it was all worth it.

Morphic tide
2017-11-17, 07:21 PM
There's one good use of Intern for optimization, though. You get to grab abilities of a class with progression beyond the class's normal limit, and you can get abilities while skipping prerequisites.

Lanth Sor
2017-11-17, 07:27 PM
There's one good use of Intern for optimization, though. You get to grab abilities of a class with progression beyond the class's normal limit,
The reason its doody for fist 10 levels


and you can get abilities while skipping prerequisites.

Please explain.

I am concerned about it being a 10 level meaning you could take levels in it post 20. Should I drop it to a under 10 level? 5 seems to little and 9 is just weird

Morphic tide
2017-11-17, 07:49 PM
Please explain.

I am concerned about it being a 10 level meaning you could take levels in it post 20. Should I drop it to a under 10 level?

Actually, you take levels in Intern before entering a class, then take that class into Epic for progression past normal limits. The real kicker is that it does not require you to meet any requirements of the class you're going into and doesn't specify base class in any way.

So you take a level or two of Intern for a 6-10 level PRC to skip the requirements of the PRC, or two levels of it for something like being a Neutral Good Bard or Sorcerer to pick up Paladin features.

Going into Epic, you take Intern levels as the start of your build to get effective levels in a PRC of your choosing, like Hive Master. Let's just say you're interning for a level 30 archdruid who's epic levels are all Hive Master. You now have PRC features as a 1st level character, and Hive Master happens to be a self-qualifying PRC so you can go right from Intern into Hive Master proper for an effective 15 levels in a 5 level PRC that makes you a half caster that can choose their spell list list daily. And you have five levels to grab whatever stacking on Hive Master you want, so you can be 20th level with equal Hive Master abilities to your teacher and somewhat inferior Druid casting. And, at 30th level, end up ten levels ahead of them in Hive Master abilities.

Ranged Ranger
2017-11-17, 11:40 PM
It is actually intended to be taken kinda serious, but not Crash the sky. So balance critique would be very appreciated. Why make something that never sees play?



Correct thanks for the catch.



The levels don't convert they just count as levels. so you would still be a level 10 intern level 1 wizard at level 11. But you would have the caster level and spells per day of a level 16 wizard and the max spell level of a level 11 wizard.

Its a class intended to instill salt into the player until they hit level 11 and it was all worth it.

My comment about april fool's class was based on your image/name/flavor text being too modern for the normal medieval fantasy setting and I didn't understand what the capstone was doing.

Now that I have a better understanding of what it does, I actually like it as a flavorful PC option... Interns of level 9 and below could still be awesome NPCs too.

I do have a few more questions though:

Can your example Intern 10/Wizard 1 be a professional for an Intern 1 right away or do they have to wait until they're Intern 10/Wizard 6?

Can you even become Intern 10/Wizard 6? If so do you cast as a Wizard 21 with Epic Casting, or does your advancement plateau, making it better to go Intern 10/Wizard 5/Factotum 1?

JoshuaZ
2017-11-19, 11:58 AM
I've taken the extended deadline as an opportunity to add an Epic Atomos Mage feat. I don't generally play that high level so if people could check that it is balanced and works with the mechanics that would be helpful.

Lanth Sor
2017-11-19, 06:49 PM
Actually, you take levels in Intern before entering a class, then take that class into Epic for progression past normal limits. The real kicker is that it does not require you to meet any requirements of the class you're going into and doesn't specify base class in any way.

So you take a level or two of Intern for a 6-10 level PRC to skip the requirements of the PRC, or two levels of it for something like being a Neutral Good Bard or Sorcerer to pick up Paladin features.

Going into Epic, you take Intern levels as the start of your build to get effective levels in a PRC of your choosing, like Hive Master. Let's just say you're interning for a level 30 archdruid who's epic levels are all Hive Master. You now have PRC features as a 1st level character, and Hive Master happens to be a self-qualifying PRC so you can go right from Intern into Hive Master proper for an effective 15 levels in a 5 level PRC that makes you a half caster that can choose their spell list list daily. And you have five levels to grab whatever stacking on Hive Master you want, so you can be 20th level with equal Hive Master abilities to your teacher and somewhat inferior Druid casting. And, at 30th level, end up ten levels ahead of them in Hive Master abilities.

Looks like I need to adjust my class a little. Most of what you said is intended. Yes archdruid would need to be a druid 15/hive master 15+ to qualify as a professional to a intern allowing them to reach level 10 in the class.


My comment about april fool's class was based on your image/name/flavor text being too modern for the normal medieval fantasy setting and I didn't understand what the capstone was doing.

Now that I have a better understanding of what it does, I actually like it as a flavorful PC option... Interns of level 9 and below could still be awesome NPCs too.

I do have a few more questions though:

Can your example Intern 10/Wizard 1 be a professional for an Intern 1 right away or do they have to wait until they're Intern 10/Wizard 6?

Can you even become Intern 10/Wizard 6? If so do you cast as a Wizard 21 with Epic Casting, or does your advancement plateau, making it better to go Intern 10/Wizard 5/Factotum 1?

Yes, your caster level would be that for your wizard spells but you still are not epic which is another part fo the epic spell feats requirements. So a level 10intern/10wizard has CL 25 so mage armor lasts 25 hours, but even though you have CL 21+ you are not epic, so no epic level spell feats. a level 10 intern/6 wizard would just have a CL of 21, but would still be a level 16 in fact. Nothing the intern does unlocks abilities faster they just make them stronger.

The idea i was pointing more at with my questions is: If I made the class less then 10 level it becomes a dead end class as you can only advance 10 level prestige classes past the listed cap in epic? The problem is 10 is kinda the perfect number of levels for it.

Ranged Ranger
2017-11-21, 02:13 AM
By the way, how are 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places determined?

gawwy
2017-11-21, 02:57 AM
Open vote I belive?

noob
2017-11-21, 03:18 AM
What happens when there is an intern in a epic prestige class(such as a epic master specialist intern) does it gets the class features of a level 15 epic master specialist once it gets its certificate including epic feats?(since epic master specialist is a class I see no problem in that)
Or an intern in internship?
Its capstone would progress his intern level which would progress his intern level and so on giving him the class features of an infinite level intern(not really useful)

Ranged Ranger
2017-11-21, 04:08 AM
What happens when there is an intern in a epic prestige class(such as a epic master specialist intern) does it gets the class features of a level 15 epic master specialist once it gets its certificate including epic feats?(since epic master specialist is a class I see no problem in that)
Or an intern in internship?
Its capstone would progress his intern level which would progress his intern level and so on giving him the class features of an infinite level intern(not really useful)

Taking even one level as and intern in internship creates and infinite recursion causing you to [PAINFULLY!!!] collapse in on yourself and then wink out of existence.

noob
2017-11-21, 04:22 AM
I am quite sure getting infinite class features that all do nothing but getting you more class features could simply be approximated by giving you no class features.
On the other hand I can only imagine how horrible it is to become an intern with the intent of becoming an intern at the end of your carrier.

Aniikinis
2017-11-21, 09:25 AM
Is voting fine yet?

Westhart
2017-11-21, 09:32 AM
Is voting fine yet?

Voting thread will be up momentarily :smallsmile:

Westhart
2017-11-21, 09:45 AM
Voting Thread is up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542648-Pretige-Class-Contest-Voting-Thread-The-Little-Things&p=22590443#post22590443)

Westhart
2017-11-21, 10:06 AM
So, now everyone can start voting/bickering ((:smalltongue:)) about what they'd like the next contest theme to be.

Aniikinis
2017-11-21, 10:25 AM
I'm putting my vote in for Creepy Crawlies or In Darkness They Lie.

...what? I mean it's not like I enjoy spiders and millipedes and grasshoppers and cuttlefish and those cutesy little hypno huggers. :smallwink:

Edit: Also tossing Best of my Race (Paragons) into the ring.

Morphic tide
2017-11-21, 10:37 AM
Switch hitters!

Westhart
2017-11-21, 10:37 AM
I'm putting my vote in for Creepy Crawlies or In Darkness They Lie.

...what? I mean it's not like I enjoy spiders and millipedes and grasshoppers and cuttlefish and those cutesy little hypno huggers. :smallwink:

Just for the record you don't have to go off those in the OP, they were just ideas that were mentioned or I jotted down in case nobody could come up with something for a future contest. Thus if someone wanted to do/ssuggest a different theme then what's there feel free to.

JoshuaZ
2017-11-21, 11:24 AM
A few other suggestions for next context or a later contest:

"Light is not necessarily good, dark is not necessarily evil"
"Homebrew power" (the idea being that the PrCs need to use some pre-existing homebrew)
"Specialization"
"Words"
"For whom the bell tolls" (the idea being music themed PrCs)
"Against the gods"

Morphic tide
2017-11-21, 11:42 AM
A few other suggestions for next context or a later contest:

"Light is not necessarily good, dark is not necessarily evil"
"Homebrew power" (the idea being that the PrCs need to use some pre-existing homebrew)
"Specialization"
"Words"
"For whom the bell tolls" (the idea being music themed PrCs)
"Against the gods"

...I can manage to make something that fits all of those at once thanks to a Truenaming overhaul over on MinMax.

Westhart
2017-11-21, 11:43 AM
A few other suggestions for next context or a later contest:

"Light is not necessarily good, dark is not necessarily evil"
"Homebrew power" (the idea being that the PrCs need to use some pre-existing homebrew)
"Specialization"
"Words"
"For whom the bell tolls" (the idea being music themed PrCs)
"Against the gods"

Most of these I like, except Homebrew Power, as I think the point for these is new homebrew and unless you use your own you have to go ask everyone for permission (I think) to base stuff off of.

JoshuaZ
2017-11-21, 10:14 PM
Most of these I like, except Homebrew Power, as I think the point for these is new homebrew and unless you use your own you have to go ask everyone for permission (I think) to base stuff off of.

That seems reasonable.

Question about voting. Can we include a vote for something in more than one category? (Say giving the same thing for best use of theme and also include that as one of one's top 3). I'm still thinking about my voting and I would just like to know how restrictive the voting options are.

MrNobody
2017-11-22, 05:01 AM
Still making up my mind on voting.

For next contests i second the idea of a music themed one, and i think it could be fun a contest based on "altruism", classes that focus heavily in helping other classes work better.

Jormengand
2017-11-22, 11:22 AM
That seems reasonable.

Question about voting. Can we include a vote for something in more than one category? (Say giving the same thing for best use of theme and also include that as one of one's top 3). I'm still thinking about my voting and I would just like to know how restrictive the voting options are.

Traditionally the answer to this question is "Yes", especially since sometimes (often) there are 6 or fewer entries, so anyone who made an entry is forced to vote for the same thing in two places. In fact, 15 is a comically-large number of entries compared to how many we usually get for these.

JoshuaZ
2017-11-22, 11:47 AM
Traditionally the answer to this question is "Yes", especially since sometimes (often) there are 6 or fewer entries, so anyone who made an entry is forced to vote for the same thing in two places. In fact, 15 is a comically-large number of entries compared to how many we usually get for these.

Thanks for that qualification.

Also, while I'm at it, here are two more theme ideas for the future:

"Fate verse free will"
"Salvation and damnation"

Westhart
2017-11-22, 11:49 AM
That seems reasonable.

Question about voting. Can we include a vote for something in more than one category? (Say giving the same thing for best use of theme and also include that as one of one's top 3). I'm still thinking about my voting and I would just like to know how restrictive the voting options are.
As Jorm said, yes you can.

Traditionally the answer to this question is "Yes", especially since sometimes (often) there are 6 or fewer entries, so anyone who made an entry is forced to vote for the same thing in two places. In fact, 15 is a comically-large number of entries compared to how many we usually get for these.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one shocked at the 15 entries :smallbiggrin:

Lanth Sor
2017-11-22, 11:50 AM
What about "sandwiches"

noob
2017-11-22, 01:49 PM
I guess there would be a witch made of sand that cooks sandwiches?

JoshuaZ
2017-11-26, 09:31 AM
Voting seems slow, so I just want to make sure everyone is aware that the voting thread is up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542648-Pretige-Class-Contest-Voting-Thread-The-Little-Things).

Westhart
2017-11-29, 07:59 AM
Tomorrow is the last day for voting, keep in mind if you do not vote your entry will be disqualified from the voting thread.

Baby Gary
2017-11-29, 06:14 PM
I forgot about this for a while... oops.

@JoshuaZ, thanks for your critiques, but it is sadly to late for that to make much of a difference

Morphic tide
2017-11-29, 10:39 PM
3rd Vote: The Hive Master- I always wanted to play this type of character, and was heavily dissapointed on the versions of this concept made in official sources. I really like this class, every ability you gain being meaningful and able to escalate with the character while encouraging thought on swarm positioning and how many of them you really need to control, the class has clearly had a lot of thought put into it and it is great, plus it has some wilder love which is something I approve of. That said, I really think the class would benefit from some improvements, such as being a bit more specific how you actually give order to the swarms? specifically for vermins and other mindless swarms as well as an actual action expenditure for taking control of swarms, even if it is a free action.

Thanks for the complements! And it's not that it has a lot of thought put into it, it's that I ran some numbers to make sure it wasn't going to be busted. The point of the Primal/Druid-type-Divine casting stacking with Animal Companion was to give some better control over hit dice allocations, as the SRD Swarms fall off in usefulness soon after you can enter the PRC in the first place.

See, one of the things I planned was to have a generalized Swarm setup to make Hive Minds and Hive Masters suffer fewer problems from the honestly horrible selection of Vermin Swarms. But that quickly grew to become rather hard to work with as a monster entry, so I started trying to rework it as a monster "class" to reduce mechanical complexity. And then I got distracted by my old Crysmal monster class that I wanted to make a proper set of three racial substitution levels for and... Yeah.

Orders... Didn't think crunch was really needed, as a lot of summon spells don’t bother specifying how orders are given. It's generally assumed to be automatic and no-particular-power-source-telepathic. As for action requirements, a cursory glance kinda brings up fundamental issues with the lack of an action requirement. Swift Action would kinda cut needs for Quickened Spell in anti-Vermin situations, and lets the caster continue working properly. It's also easy enough to get extras of that you can reliably have multiple attempts at the start of a fight.

Morphic tide
2017-11-30, 05:33 AM
(13th: The Hive Master.) Probably needs spellcasting, doesn't advance it without special use of their third-level ability. Requires level 10, but at ECL 13, you can cast as a 28th-level cleric, paladin or favoured soul. Glorious. The power of this class is not so much the swarms (I would leave them at home) but the bonuses you get for having them.
The spellcasting on the 3rd level ability is intentional, because the 3rd level ability is the casting progression mechanic. It's to force losing at least one level of casting for the minimum control cap. There's also two clauses preventing whatever build you're thinking of. Your effective level for any parameter can not exceed your character level from Motes of Power, nor can you take a penalty to Will saves higher than your base Will save bonus from hit dice.

Although range limits will need added in a revision. How the heck did I miss that... And where are you getting 28th level casting from, you need four Swarm HD for each pick off the Motes of Power list. And the Will save is a -1 per HD past the lower limit, so you'd need a base Will save bonus from hit dice alone of +10 to get the upper limit of 18 Swarm HD at three levels of Hive Master. Now, at ECL 20 PRC stacking can possibly be used to acquire a +17 base bonus(not actually clear on the rules, but it's meant to be non-trivial, possibly impossible pre-Epic), but +10 at ECL 13? How do you get that from base Will save?

I put in limiting clauses that make it a colossal pain in the ass to actually come out considerably ahead in progressions.

...Seriously, did you actually bother reading it? Because you seem to have missed every limiting clause and utterly ignored the explanation for a class feature's existence. The only complaint you have that's actually valid, given the design idea of not having a normal casting progression I stated multiple times, is the range limit. Or rather the lack of one.

You appear to have massively, absurdly failed reading comprehension and not seen the conversation about it. The absolute maximum progression of casting is 1.5 per level, no matter how hard you optimize your Will save, which is behind Ur Priest. Tell me what the sweet hell you saw in it to make you believe you can get 15 more levels of casting than the literal hard limit.

Jormengand
2017-11-30, 06:02 AM
I did misread it as 1 per hit die, rather than per 4, as I was trying to review 14 classes (with varying numbers of terrible class features that should never have been typed) in a reasonable time. The class "Only" allows you to be one level ahead of a standard cleric at third level and two ahead at fourth and fifth levels.

However, I'm confused by the idea that it's hard to get a +10 base will save bonus on a cleric 10/hive master 3, who has, by default... a +10 base will save bonus. Maybe you didn't get that you, and I quote, "Add the base save bonuses for each class together", and yes that includes the +2. Maybe you always play with the fractional base attack and saves alternate rule, where you don't generally count the +2 each time. Whatever the reason, it's trivial to get the +10 will save bonus, to the effect that you can do it accidentally easily enough.

noob
2017-11-30, 08:03 AM
Cleric?/church inquisitor 1 or 2/a bunch of other dips in prcs/Hive Master.
Congratulation you can probably have 14 to your will save by the time you get hive master.

JoshuaZ
2017-11-30, 10:13 AM
1st: The Atomos Mage. This is cool and apart from spelling I can't see anything wrong with it. You might want to check the numbers on getting atomos points a bit more because you might be able to steal too many with salvage arcana (doubling your atomos pool might be too much?) but I haven't run the numbers properly so I dunno I like to pray and hope that this one is Most Likely to See Play.

Yeah, for all the fact that my early comments on other entries included spelling and grammar issues, my own entry has an embarrassingly large number of them. After the contest I'll put up an updated one; if you see any spelling or other issues please let me know since I may not have found all of them.

As for the number of atomos points, I'm not sure. Earlier drafts had too few, but this may be too many. I'll need to think about it more. If you have more specific thoughts about that, I'll be happy to hear them.

Morphic tide
2017-11-30, 12:28 PM
I did misread it as 1 per hit die, rather than per 4, as I was trying to review 14 classes (with varying numbers of terrible class features that should never have been typed) in a reasonable time. The class "Only" allows you to be one level ahead of a standard cleric at third level and two ahead at fourth and fifth levels.

However, I'm confused by the idea that it's hard to get a +10 base will save bonus on a cleric 10/hive master 3, who has, by default... a +10 base will save bonus. Maybe you didn't get that you, and I quote, "Add the base save bonuses for each class together", and yes that includes the +2. Maybe you always play with the fractional base attack and saves alternate rule, where you don't generally count the +2 each time. Whatever the reason, it's trivial to get the +10 will save bonus, to the effect that you can do it accidentally easily enough.

...No, it doesn't let you get actually ahead on casting, because there's a clause specifically preventing any parameter's effective level exceeding your character level(although this does mean LA can be compensated for fairly easily). This applies to everything on the Motes of Power list.

And if you have exactly a +10 from 10 levels of strong Will save, followed by 3 levels of Hive Master... You're burning up your entire stock of Will save and are knocked out for 1d4 hours if you take any level drain at all, whether it's permanent or not. Assuming you took a one-level dip of Druid(or of Cleric as a 9th level Druid), you have a wiggle room of one point of Will save. You can get +12 on the base save if you go for 8 levels in one and two in the other, whichever way you feel like splitting it, but that cuts a spell level from Cleric's base. If you pull a multiclass soup, PRC stacking or base mixing, it gets pretty easy to get the +17 by level 20.

Aniikinis
2017-12-01, 10:28 AM
It has some issues. One, d4 hit die and rewards being in melee combat. With no armour. Having to go up to nine levels specifically in a mid-BAB class also hurts. Why nine, anyway? I could see it on a cat class (See also: the fact that Iot7V is seven levels long) but normally PrCs aren't exactly nine levels long.

Not sure why I was thinking that was good.


Why does shrink have a duration limit when it's your main selling point? You can only spend a single hour in fine size at eighth level. That's awful for something that's meant to be your key feature.

I'll be honest, I was thinking that it was too powerful and that it needed nerfed, but since it was the main thing I was dealing with I wanted to keep it in. Apparently I hit it with the nerf bat way too hard and way too much.


Ant strength is weird. It's a buff to strength on a class which shouldn't be relying on strength. "Original dexterity" is badly defined - you should really use "Base dexterity" because no record is usually kept of a creature's original dexterity that they had at level 1 (and it gets worse if you use, say, the variety of young creature rules which increase the kid's dexterity). The level 6 version incidentally is based on the ability which is already too limited in duration.

Yeah, I should have made it just give you the option of using your Dex bonus instead of Str bonus to Str checks and damage.


The Bigger They Are doesn't negate the creature's own grapple bonuses from size so good luck using it reliably. It also isn't quite clear on how it functions (how do you get off, how do they get you off, what happens if...) and you shouldn't make up new rules if you're not prepared to explain how they work in great detail.

I'll admit I bit off a bit* too much there.
*Not the right word but I'm too tired to think about what it should be.


Puny power is awful. It forces three die rolls to use successfully and doesn't do anything that's more than situational. Stinging strike is a meh "You can now actually use these features properly" feature, without which pinpoint strikes is pointless because you do about 1 damage without SA.

I hit that too hard as well and for some reason thought "Yup, allowing something that should have been a straight class feature anyways works great as a capstone!"


The whole class is a nice idea, but an inglorious mess in play. Source: I playtested it.

Yeah, I was trying to make it not super powerful and I obviously overcompensated way too much.

Ranged Ranger
2017-12-02, 07:56 PM
2nd: The Sparrow Rider. Unless I'm missing something, this doesn't usually actually allow you to ride sparrows. No clue why it's nine levels long. I do like the idea of riding tiny tiny creatures, so take a Best Use of Theme on the house.

Thanks!!!:smallredface: :smallbiggrin:

No, you aren't missing anything per say... The only official stats for sparrows I can find are in Oriental Adventures, where they're listed as Fine... Since there isn't a size category smaller than that, they cannot be ridden...

However, some species of True Sparrows (family Passeridae) can be as large as 7 inches which would qualify as diminutive if someone wanted to homebrew multiple species of sparrows... American Sparrows (subgroup within family Emberizidae) include species up to 9 inches, quite comfortably diminutive if someone wanted to create staats for them... Either way, a character with nine levels of Sparrow Rider and of a normally small race could ride a diminutive sparrow.

Alternatively, Fine could be split into more categories:3-6 inches and either 0-3 in or (1.5-3 in and 0-1.5 in). Sparrows would then be in the 3-6 in category and Ride Small would allow a character who was normally tiny to ride them.

As for the 9 levels... honestly, I'm not sure why I originally chose 9... But I do like 9. It's a nice square number. Largest single digit number in base 10 (If you care about base 10... Yuck...). An even 3/4 of the way through the best base. ...Yeah, I think I'm going with, "Because 9 is an awesome number" :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

JoshuaZ
2017-12-02, 08:55 PM
Thanks!!!:smallredface: :smallbiggrin:

No, you aren't missing anything per say... The only official stats for sparrows I can find are in Oriental Adventures, where they're listed as Fine... Since there isn't a size category smaller than that, they cannot be ridden...

However, some species of True Sparrows (family Passeridae) can be as large as 7 inches which would qualify as diminutive if someone wanted to homebrew multiple species of sparrows... American Sparrows (subgroup within family Emberizidae) include species up to 9 inches, quite comfortably diminutive if someone wanted to create staats for them... Either way, a character with nine levels of Sparrow Rider and of a normally small race could ride a diminutive sparrow.

Alternatively, Fine could be split into more categories:3-6 inches and either 0-3 in or (1.5-3 in and 0-1.5 in). Sparrows would then be in the 3-6 in category and Ride Small would allow a character who was normally tiny to ride them.

As for the 9 levels... honestly, I'm not sure why I originally chose 9... But I do like 9. It's a nice square number. Largest single digit number in base 10 (If you care about base 10... Yuck...). An even 3/4 of the way through the best base. ...Yeah, I think I'm going with, "Because 9 is an awesome number" :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

Well, "Sparrow Rider" sounds a lot more thematicly appropriate than say Hawk Rider, since everyone knows sparrows are itty bit.

9 is also good because it is the largest power of 3 which is one more than a power of 2 (proven by Gersonides about 700 years ago), and 9 the only perfect square that is one more than a positive perfect cube (proven by Fermat I think). Actually both of those are implied by the much stronger statement of Catalan's Conjecture, which states that 8 and 9 are the only perfect powers which are consecutive. This was an open problem until very recently when it was proven by Mihalesco (early 2000s). So yeah, 9 is a pretty cool number.

From a more D&D 3.5/PF relevant standpoint, I think there's a real unfortunate tendency to force PrCs into 5 or 10 levels. If one has some other number of class levels, then making it around that many levels is often better. To use a different example, in my Atomos Mage PrC it ended up as 8 levels, not because any numerology related to 8 but because I had about 8 levels worth of class features, and because there would be balance issues with some of the class features which scaled based on class level if they went up to 10.

gawwy
2017-12-04, 01:39 AM
whats next on the contest list? I heard someone sugest "Creepy Crawlies" which im game for as ive got half an idea brewing for it already.

Westhart
2017-12-04, 07:59 AM
whats next on the contest list? I heard someone sugest "Creepy Crawlies" which im game for as ive got half an idea brewing for it already.

Quite a few things have been tossed around as potential ideas, I have a concept in making or most, and suggest you lot vote for the next concept :smalltongue:.

I'll tally up the votes for the voting thread today.

neriractor
2017-12-04, 08:35 AM
my vote is for Switch hitters.

Aniikinis
2017-12-04, 10:37 AM
My vote is for Best of My Race (Paragons) or Creepy Crawlies

MrNobody
2017-12-04, 10:53 AM
Maybe something went wrong with tallying votes? I can't see my master of needles getting all that votes.

Westhart
2017-12-04, 10:56 AM
Maybe something went wrong with tallying votes? I can't see my master of needles getting all that votes.

I hate tables. Will be fixed momentarily.

Westhart
2017-12-04, 11:02 AM
I hate tables. Will be fixed momentarily.

Think I fixed it... If anyone spots any other errors please point them out! I think I got them all, but I've also slept 4 hours in the past 2 days :smalltongue:

Sorry about that!

Aniikinis
2017-12-04, 11:03 AM
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/b/b1/Happy_face.png/revision/latest?cb=20140313003453
Noice.

Ranged Ranger
2017-12-04, 11:59 AM
-SNIP-

1st Place: The Wasp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22486211&postcount=2) by Aniikinis.

Most Likely to See Play: The Wasp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22486211&postcount=2) by Aniikinis.
Best Use of Theme: [/SIZE] Well, seems we have a massive tie here, with:

The Wasp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22486211&postcount=2) by Aniikinis.
-SNIP-
Congrats, Aniikinis! A well-earned Triple Crown!!


-SNIP-
2nd Place: Sparrow Riders (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22578093&postcount=17) by Ranged Ranger

Best Use of Theme: [/SIZE] Well, seems we have a massive tie here, with:

-SNIP-
Sparrow Riders (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22578093&postcount=17) by Ranged Ranger

Wow, thanks, Everybody! :smallredface:
...
Woot! :smallbiggrin: :smallcool:
:smallredface: :smallredface:



3rd Place: The Hive Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22497039&postcount=9) by Morphic tide

Most Original: The Intern (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22542272&postcount=14) by Lanth Sor

Best Use of Theme: Well, seems we have a massive tie here, with:

The Leveller (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22496566&postcount=8) (and spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22540504&postcount=13)) by Jormengand
The Atomos Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22550878&postcount=15) by Joshua Z
-SNIP, SNIP-

Congratz to Morphic tide, Lanth Sor, Jormengand, and Joshua Z! Great Job to all of you!

MrNobody
2017-12-04, 12:27 PM
Congratulations everybody! This was a nice one!!!

I hope to do better in the next contest!

Aniikinis
2017-12-04, 12:40 PM
Gratz to all! Now, to decide on the next theme...

Baby Gary
2017-12-04, 03:21 PM
I like the idea of paragons. Another thing that would be cool would be something related to the outer planes. I find planar travel prett fun

Westhart
2017-12-05, 09:24 AM
So, it seems these are the opinions for the next contest, which I hope to start by the 12th if that works for everyone's schedule.

Creepy Crawlies-, Gawwy
Best of my Race (Paragons)-Aniikinis, Baby Gary
Switch hitters-Morphic tide, neriractor
"salvation and Damnation" -Me :smalltongue:
"Planes"-Baby Gary

So it seems we have a tie between the first three :smallamused:. Well, Aniikinis I guess you have to make up your mind about which (CC or BoMR) you want to vote for :smalltongue: as does Baby Gary on the matter of planes or paragons.

Aniikinis
2017-12-05, 09:34 AM
I think I'm in the mood for some paragons

Westhart
2017-12-05, 09:35 AM
I think I'm in the mood for some paragons

So now it is paragons vs switch hitters :smallsmile:.

daremetoidareyo
2017-12-05, 02:02 PM
paragons, yo

Westhart
2017-12-05, 02:05 PM
...and paragons take the lead, however in order to give everyone time to vote, how about I set up the next contest friday-ish?

Aniikinis
2017-12-05, 02:10 PM
Sounds good to me.

Westhart
2017-12-05, 02:12 PM
Well, I have a race (or twelve :smalltongue:) that I'd like to see paragons for, so I have no problem with it.... Just hope someone doesn't steal what I'm thinking of doing :smallbiggrin:

Morphic tide
2017-12-05, 03:20 PM
Well, I have a race (or twelve :smalltongue:) that I'd like to see paragons for, so I have no problem with it.... Just hope someone doesn't steal what I'm thinking of doing :smallbiggrin:

Illithid Savant rewrite:thog:

MrNobody
2017-12-05, 05:48 PM
I vote for paragons too!!!!

Westhart
2017-12-05, 07:43 PM
Illithid Savant rewrite:thog:

Not Quite... Oh, it'll be interesting to see the paragon classes since they're usually 3 levels vs the 5+ the contest covers... Maybe waive it for this one?

Baby Gary
2017-12-05, 07:45 PM
Not Quite... Oh, it'll be interesting to see the paragon classes since they're usually 3 levels vs the 5+ the contest covers... Maybe waive it for this one?

I would say that would be a good idea. A paragon class that is longer than 3 levels could be interesting though, some sort of "super" paragon could work if they are 5 levels or longer

JoshuaZ
2017-12-05, 09:47 PM
Maybe instead of paragons, make it race specific PrCs?

Westhart
2017-12-06, 08:09 AM
Maybe instead of paragons, make it race specific PrCs?

I'm going to second this, as my intended project has both :smalltongue:.

Aniikinis
2017-12-06, 09:36 AM
Maybe instead of paragons, make it race specific PrCs?


I'm going to second this, as my intended project has both :smalltongue:.

porque no los dos?

Westhart
2017-12-06, 09:40 AM
porque no los dos?

Technically you can have both as paragon classes are indeed racial :smalltongue:

Jormengand
2017-12-06, 11:34 AM
Technically you can have both as paragon classes are indeed racial :smalltongue:

Technically you can't have both as paragon classes aren't race specific PrCs, they're race specific inglorious cluster-flubs which should never have existed and are neither base classes nor prestige classes. They allow you to start off at first level with them, and then advance spellcasting that you don't have if you take all the levels immediately, which is nonsensical but it's how it works. Paragons are stupid and racial PrCs, while bad (what if I wanted to have a human arcane archer? I can't, for no good reason? What next, only orcs can be assassins?) are nowhere near that bad.

On that note, I vote in favour of literally anything else, and also in favour of not having hard restrictions in general. There's no point in having a "Best use of theme" category if no-one has any option but to follow the theme religiously.

Westhart
2017-12-06, 11:42 AM
Technically you can't have both as paragon classes aren't race specific PrCs, they're race specific inglorious cluster-flubs which should never have existed and are neither base classes nor prestige classes. They allow you to start off at first level with them, and then advance spellcasting that you don't have if you take all the levels immediately, which is nonsensical but it's how it works. Paragons are stupid and racial PrCs, while bad (what if I wanted to have a human arcane archer? I can't, for no good reason? What next, only orcs can be assassins?) are nowhere near that bad.

On that note, I vote in favour of literally anything else, and also in favour of not having hard restrictions in general. There's no point in having a "Best use of theme" category if no-one has any option but to follow the theme religiously.

Well besides "literally anything else" what would you suggest for theme? As the theme would have been "Best of Their Race" or some such, which does not necessarily straight jacket you into paragons but was what seemed to come to everyone's mind, while I meanwhile had a thought including quite a few things, not just paragon classes.

Lanth Sor
2017-12-06, 12:00 PM
Honestly why wouldn't you just do it as paragon classes that are classic PRC. So arcane archer is strait out but something that make you a more elfy elf would be perfect. Think monster classes for PC races. Good example would be taking a drow and making a Drow Noble Class

Jormengand
2017-12-06, 12:09 PM
Well besides "literally anything else" what would you suggest for theme?

Whichever of the options has most votes and isn't that one.

Westhart
2017-12-06, 12:11 PM
Whichever of the options has most votes and isn't that one.

So I guess that's a vote for switch hitters.

JoshuaZ
2017-12-06, 01:14 PM
Technically you can't have both as paragon classes aren't race specific PrCs, they're race specific inglorious cluster-flubs which should never have existed and are neither base classes nor prestige classes. They allow you to start off at first level with them, and then advance spellcasting that you don't have if you take all the levels immediately, which is nonsensical but it's how it works. Paragons are stupid and racial PrCs, while bad (what if I wanted to have a human arcane archer? I can't, for no good reason? What next, only orcs can be assassins?) are nowhere near that bad.

On that note, I vote in favour of literally anything else, and also in favour of not having hard restrictions in general. There's no point in having a "Best use of theme" category if no-one has any option but to follow the theme religiously.

I agree that paragons have some both mechanical and fluff issues. The idea of a racially specific PrC isn't crazy though. For example, if this ends up being the choice, I'm probably going to go with a PrC that involves an illumian's sigils. That's by nature a race specific PrC because it will heavily involve something that only a specific race has a feature. I agree that the restriction of Arcane Archer to elves wasn't good since there was no mechanical nor fluff reason to restrict it to them. but that doesn't mean that it is a bad idea in general to have race specific PrCs.

Baby Gary
2017-12-06, 01:47 PM
Changing my vote to racial PrCs, this is more interesting and more options than paragon. I have some cool ideas for racial PrCs

Westhart
2017-12-06, 02:04 PM
Changing my vote to racial PrCs, this is more interesting and more options than paragon. I have some cool ideas for racial PrCs

Well, now I don't think the old "best of their race" thing works out so well for the title, anyone have suggestions on what you'd call it?

JoshuaZ
2017-12-06, 02:18 PM
Well, now I don't think the old "best of their race" thing works out so well for the title, anyone have suggestions on what you'd call it?

"Race to the top"?

"Class matters but race matters also"

"Secrets of your heritage"

Westhart
2017-12-06, 02:20 PM
I'd lean towards the third probably, so, are people good with racial PrC's?

Jormengand
2017-12-06, 02:21 PM
I agree that paragons have some both mechanical and fluff issues. The idea of a racially specific PrC isn't crazy though. For example, if this ends up being the choice, I'm probably going to go with a PrC that involves an illumian's sigils. That's by nature a race specific PrC because it will heavily involve something that only a specific race has a feature. I agree that the restriction of Arcane Archer to elves wasn't good since there was no mechanical nor fluff reason to restrict it to them. but that doesn't mean that it is a bad idea in general to have race specific PrCs.

The trouble with race-locked PrCs is that your character's race and class are both supposed to be meaningful character decisions. The reason I don't like putting too many restrictions on a prestige class at all is that each restriction removes the ability to take your build in a different direction - not only will your orc arcane archer never see the light of day, but neither will your 7th-level arcane archer with three feats which aren't the three listed.

Having an illumian-locked PrC means that your PrC is never likely to see play at all, because it will only be a natural progression for a race that, in all honesty, I've never seen used to play anything other than single-classed paladins or truenamers (for the bonus to caster level and the bonus to INT skills, respectively - so much for illumians being the multiclassing race). Paladins and truenamers aren't known for their love of prestige classes (save for using SotAO to get abjurant champion on a paladin who isn't meant to be able to have it), so anyone who wants to enter your PrC will probably have wanted to enter your PrC from level 1.

This brings up my main beef with PrCs in the first instance: if your character concept doesn't exist at first level then it doesn't exist at all. Why do I say that? Well, because technically, by the way that encounters work, you should be spending 13 of the damn things at first level. Ultimately, the assassin is fine because it takes a concept that the character already had at level 1 (I murder people sneakily) and builds on it (I have death attack which is more murderous and spells which make me more sneaky and/or more murderous), whereas the shadowdancer adds a bunch of weird shadowy stuff to a class that didn't really have anything to do with that beyond "Hide is a skill".

Any race-based stuff that isn't a racial paragon, or heavens forbid a base class, pretty much has to run straight into that by definition, because there's always going to be a 5-level gap in your advancement - for your first 5 levels, your sigils were some +numbers and an ability which doesn't seem to have any possible power level other than "Useless" or "Literally sacred tradition or divine metamagic". This didn't change at second level and it didn't change at third or fourth or fifth until suddenly you're in a PrC. Whatever your first five levels were, they had very little to do with your sigils.

What might be more interesting is to have a race based theme, but not actually make classes tied to a specific race. You could even have a class based around emulating a race other than your own, which IIRC Stoneblessed was (though of course it had racial requirements too).

Westhart
2017-12-06, 02:24 PM
What might be more interesting is to have a race based theme, but not actually make classes tied to a specific race. You could even have a class based around emulating a race other than your own, which IIRC Stoneblessed was (though of course it had racial requirements too).

Hmm, that sounds fine by me, but I also think it should be up to popular vote, so I guess we'll see.

Jormengand
2017-12-06, 02:26 PM
Hmm, that sounds fine by me, but I also think it should be up to popular vote, so I guess we'll see.

It's that, or watch me come up with a clever way of making "You must be any race" sound like a real racial requirement. :smalltongue:

Westhart
2017-12-06, 02:28 PM
It's that, or watch me come up with a clever way of making "You must be any race" sound like a real racial requirement. :smalltongue:

Hehe, that may also be interesting, especially if you do it in a creative manner :smalltongue:

JoshuaZ
2017-12-06, 05:09 PM
The trouble with race-locked PrCs is that your character's race and class are both supposed to be meaningful character decisions. The reason I don't like putting too many restrictions on a prestige class at all is that each restriction removes the ability to take your build in a different direction - not only will your orc arcane archer never see the light of day, but neither will your 7th-level arcane archer with three feats which aren't the three listed.

Having an illumian-locked PrC means that your PrC is never likely to see play at all, because it will only be a natural progression for a race that, in all honesty, I've never seen used to play anything other than single-classed paladins or truenamers (for the bonus to caster level and the bonus to INT skills, respectively - so much for illumians being the multiclassing race). Paladins and truenamers aren't known for their love of prestige classes (save for using SotAO to get abjurant champion on a paladin who isn't meant to be able to have it), so anyone who wants to enter your PrC will probably have wanted to enter your PrC from level 1.

This brings up my main beef with PrCs in the first instance: if your character concept doesn't exist at first level then it doesn't exist at all. Why do I say that? Well, because technically, by the way that encounters work, you should be spending 13 of the damn things at first level. Ultimately, the assassin is fine because it takes a concept that the character already had at level 1 (I murder people sneakily) and builds on it (I have death attack which is more murderous and spells which make me more sneaky and/or more murderous), whereas the shadowdancer adds a bunch of weird shadowy stuff to a class that didn't really have anything to do with that beyond "Hide is a skill".

Any race-based stuff that isn't a racial paragon, or heavens forbid a base class, pretty much has to run straight into that by definition, because there's always going to be a 5-level gap in your advancement - for your first 5 levels, your sigils were some +numbers and an ability which doesn't seem to have any possible power level other than "Useless" or "Literally sacred tradition or divine metamagic". This didn't change at second level and it didn't change at third or fourth or fifth until suddenly you're in a PrC. Whatever your first five levels were, they had very little to do with your sigils.

What might be more interesting is to have a race based theme, but not actually make classes tied to a specific race. You could even have a class based around emulating a race other than your own, which IIRC Stoneblessed was (though of course it had racial requirements too).

I agree with much of this criticism. This gets in part to the problem that PrCs while an excellent mechanic, have a serious problem that they were designed in general with the expectation that one wasn't going to enter them before 6th level. Unfortunately, even homebrewers have generally kept this norm, which does lead to the problems of this sort. This is of course closely connected to the problem that most play is too low level to see most PrCs have their highest levels used. I consider the norm of not having PrCs start before 6th level to be one of the great design flaws of 3.5. Heck, this leads to an idea for what might be a fun contest in the future "Early entry" where the PrCs just need to be balanced and designed to have relatively early entry.

(Also I'll cast a vote for the racial theme as the next contest.)

Lanth Sor
2017-12-06, 07:37 PM
Sword and Sorcery put out a PRC you could qualify for at level 0, Felsworn, for the world of warcraft book. It basically allows you to become big scary demon. Its only requirement is "You made contact with fel energy some how." Weather hit with a fel spell, took a level in Arcanist(warlock), or just Do-si-doed with a succubus. It's really only worth like 2 levels for a beatstick but still great thing.

Ranged Ranger
2017-12-06, 08:28 PM
Having an illumian-locked PrC means that your PrC is never likely to see play at all, because it will only be a natural progression for a race that, in all honesty, I've never seen used to play anything other than single-classed paladins or truenamers (for the bonus to caster level and the bonus to INT skills, respectively - so much for illumians being the multiclassing race). Paladins and truenamers aren't known for their love of prestige classes (save for using SotAO to get abjurant champion on a paladin who isn't meant to be able to have it), so anyone who wants to enter your PrC will probably have wanted to enter your PrC from level 1.
I enjoyed my Illumian Rogue//Archivist. And, no, I was not using my sigils to boost Caster Level. Uurnaen lets you leave open 1st or 2nd lvl spell slots for a boost to sneak attack...

I vote for a race related theme... If we can have the theme that allows for both classes tied to a specific race and classes based around emulating a race other than your own all the better.

Westhart
2017-12-07, 02:38 PM
So, think I will actually go with Race to The Top as suggested for a title by JoshuaZ. Thus the topic will be a rather open ended "races" kind of thing, thus (hopefully) meeting some kind of middle ground.

Westhart
2017-12-07, 03:12 PM
Well good luck to everyone and have fun :smallsmile:. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544144-Prestige-Class-Contest-II-3-X-Race-to-the-Top-Submission-Thread&p=22642339#post22642339)

JoshuaZ
2017-12-07, 08:55 PM
Well good luck to everyone and have fun :smallsmile:. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544144-Prestige-Class-Contest-II-3-X-Race-to-the-Top-Submission-Thread&p=22642339#post22642339)

Hmm, I'm having second thoughts about my Illumian sigil class primarily because I'm tempted instead to make a Reth Dekala PrC. Which would people be more interested in?

Ranged Ranger
2017-12-08, 01:51 AM
Hmm, I'm having second thoughts about my Illumian sigil class primarily because I'm tempted instead to make a Reth Dekala PrC. Which would people be more interested in?

If you don't do an Illumian class, I'll probably do an Illumian emulation class. If you're taking it in a significantly different direction, I may do so anyways... I'm also considering several other races for an emulation class...

Jormengand
2017-12-08, 04:23 AM
I am down with the idea of everyone creating PrCs based on a relatively obscure human variant from RoD.

More likely, I'll probably create some kind of summoner, because let's face it, in D&D races and monsters are basically the same thing.

noob
2017-12-08, 06:09 AM
I was thinking about making a racist paragon prc.
Favored enemy at each level except 0 and at level 0 gets to stop counting racist acts for his cosmic alignment(and his perceived alignment) but still counts it for his actual alignment(which desynchs more and more from his alignment for interaction with effects,detection spells and afterlife)
I still have no idea what would levels below 0 do.
What would be the opposite of racism.
Tolerance?
Which kind of effects would that have?
Am I even supposed to do the negative levels for a prc in the first place?

Aniikinis
2017-12-08, 06:17 AM
Made a Dire Rat Paragon class that can effectively multiclass with rogue.

EDIT:
I was thinking about making a racist paragon prc.
Favored enemy at each level except 0 and at level 0 gets to stop counting racist acts for his cosmic alignment(and his perceived alignment) but still counts it for his actual alignment(which desynchs more and more from his alignment for interaction with effects,detection spells and afterlife)
I still have no idea what would levels below 0 do.
What would be the opposite of racism.
Tolerance?
Which kind of effects would that have?
Am I even supposed to do the negative levels for a prc in the first place?

I'd just make it so that racist acts don't modify alignment at all.
Also: why would you have negative levels for a class in the first place?

JoshuaZ
2017-12-08, 10:03 AM
If you don't do an Illumian class, I'll probably do an Illumian emulation class. If you're taking it in a significantly different direction, I may do so anyways... I'm also considering several other races for an emulation class...

Hmm, ok. In that case I'll do the Reth Dekala one instead, and I may come back to the Illumian one in a later contest.

Westhart
2017-12-08, 10:32 AM
Well, hopefully I'll be able to chew the rather big bite I just took. :smallbiggrin:

Aniikinis
2017-12-08, 10:37 AM
Oh that'll be fun to read when you're done with it. Exactly how many faeries are you dealing with and what kinds?

Westhart
2017-12-08, 10:41 AM
Oh that'll be fun to read when you're done with it. Exactly how many faeries are you dealing with and what kinds?

I'm going to cover all the MM ones at least... Now, if only I could find a list of all the creatures with the Fey (Fae :smallwink:) subtype... Time to go look :smallbiggrin: