Seeking feedback on Vigiilante Avenger build

[omnivir]

Hello Everyone! I've been working recently on a rebuild of my current character to an Avenger Vigilante. Looking for feedback on if the setup will work well or if I should instead go TWF route? Even more so, since I'm mainly focusing on melee damage and the group for the game isn't huge into roleplaying, would I see more reliable with another melee class such as Fighter or Barbarian? Monk isn't an option right now since one of the other players is already playing Monk. I would be swapping in at level 8, so I've only built up to that point. Any advice for past level 8 is of course appreciated

I'd post a link to the HeroLabs pdf file of the build, it looks like I need a few more posts before I'm permitted to do so.

Vigilante Build

Race: Vishkanya
Alt Racial Trait: Subtle Appearance
Traits: Adopted (Warrior of Old), Armor Expert, Besmara's Blessing (Campaign)
Drawbacks: Dependent


01: Social Talent: Social Grace, Vigilante Specialization: Avenger, Feat: Weapon Focus (Falchion)
02: Vigilante Talent: Shield of Blades (+Power Attack)
03: Social Talent: Renown +4, Feat: Fucious Focus
04: Vigilante Talent: Signature Weapon (Falchion) (+Weapon Focus (Falchion), Dazzling Display (Falchion), Ability: Strength +1
05: Social Talent: Safe House, Gory Finish
06: Vigilante Talent: Vital Punishment (+Vital Strike)
07: Social Talent: Quick Change, Feat: Shatter Defenses (Falchion)
08: Vigilante Talent: Combat Skill (Improved Critical), Ability: Strength +1

[ArendK]

Vigilante is definitely for a social RP heavy group. Unless you really want a way to juggle a little offense into a social build, Vigilante is NOT the way to go. It's job is primarily social with a flexible chasis and the weirdness the dual identities. That being said, will yours do damage? Yes. It won't be great damage compared to a dedicated fighter/barbarian/cavalier/brawler/ranger, but it's damage at least. Falchion and crit-fishing is never a bad thing combined with power attack, especially if you can consistantly hit (furious focus is a good way to negate that penalty). If you want to really do this, I'd see if you could maybe jimmy some feats around to focus on amplifying Dazzling Display/Demoralize attempts to not only give them shaken, but frightened and panicked in wide areas. There's a plethora out there for crit builds, I just can't remember their names. Shaken is great as a general debuff, frightened makes it easier to disperse their crowds and make their focus on evading you, Panicked is great for all the same reasons adding on dropping their weapons.

[Ssalarn]

Vigilante is definitely for a social RP heavy group. Unless you really want a way to juggle a little offense into a social build, Vigilante is NOT the way to go. It's job is primarily social with a flexible chasis and the weirdness the dual identities.


That's actually not true at all. Vigilante starts off slower than other martial classes due to its high skill facility but grows much better over time. Since most vigilante talents are either multiple feats or feats+, the vigilante can actually quickly stack up as many or even significantly more combat feats than a fighter while maintaining their strong skill chassis. As the OP has clearly already discovered, Social Grace is an excellent social option that doesn't hinge on dual identities at all.

While the OP didn't note it, he actually picked up Weapon Specialization at 8th level from the Signature Weapon talent he took at 4th, meaning he currently has the exact same number of combat feats as a Fighter, two good saves instead of one, deep skills and the Rogue skill list, and a variety of other ancillary abilities they've picked up along the way like a +3 shield bonus to AC when power attacking with his falchion, the ability to Vital Strike on an attack of opportunity, and of course his scry-proof safe house, and the +4 circumstance bonuses to 3 different skills he has (including Intimidate, which is an excellent compliment to the Dazzling Display/Gory Finish feats he's chosen). Unshakable adding +8 to the DC to Intimidate the vigilante, and Startling Appearance granting him increased offense and defense on surprise attacks also aren't exactly nothing. Compared to a Fighter following a similar build the vigilante is pulling 2d4 extra damage each round from AoOs, eliminating or surpassing the Fighter's heavy armor advantage with Shield of Blades, and has significant advantages in any round Gory Finish comes into play. The Fighter has slightly more accuracy and hp, worse saves, significantly worse skills, and no native out of combat boosters. While the fighter can burn their options to trade into real class features with Weapon Master's Handbook and Armor Master's Handbook, at the level in question he's just playing catch-up and will never fully surpass the vigilante on the social and exploration front while maintaining only a minor and often insignificant edge in combat. Each additional vigilante talent that the OP Picks up will also offer more than most feats the fighter the can take; if the fighter tries to pick up a combat maneuver, the vigilante can take Favored Maneuver to do the same thing only better, with an additional bonus tacked on. At 12th level the vigilante will get their version of pounce, which the fighter can only emulate with specific archetypes or styles.

The vigilante, particularly the avenger specialization, is significantly more than a skill-monkey with a second identity; it's probably one of the best martial classes Paizo has published to date, with real class features that give the class separate progressions of combat and out-of combat abilities so you don't have to choose what parts of the game you want to participate in.

[omnivir]

Thanks a lot for the feedback Ssalarn and ArendK! I'm still tuning and working on the build based on feedback I've also obtained from the paizo pathfinder advice board. I think this post will actually put me at the 10 needed to post links, so I'll test that after this one has been submitted.

Truth be told, based on feedback from the Paizo advice board, I've made a few adjustments to build. I didn't realize that Keen made the critical range for Falchion 15-20, so Improved Critical became redundant and has been removed. I've also swapped the Vigilante Talent (Improved Critical) to Cunning Feint. Additionally, I never upgraded my armor to medium with higher AC since this character was copied in Hero Labs from a Vigilant TWF build I was considering before. I just forgot to upgrade the armor after copying was all.

Also, based on avr's feedback from the Piazo forum, I am once again considering the TWF build I originally made sans rapiers for kukris. I'll post both build shortly, although I still need to fine-tune check the TWF build for legal acquisition of abilities per level.

Right now I think both builds have the potential to be "good", but I'm not entirely sure which would be best for play or for the party. I'm currently playing a Cavalier as the Inspiring Commander archetype, so I've sort of been the front line focus player. I worry if I swap to the TWF build I don't be able to handle the front line as well. However, I think that assumption may not have much weight because both the Falchion and TWF build are in the same HP range and -1 AC when not Power Attacking and +2 AC when Power Attacking.

I'm sort of leaning towards the TWF build again since the stealth and higher full round action has appeal. I sort of feel that unless I invest heavy into trip or something else that provokes AoO on enemies, I won't really get the full potential out of the Falchion Vital Strike build. If I'm correct with that, then it's not as inspiring since spending an action an effect and flat out failing kind of sucks. Like why trip when I can simply attack? Gory Finish producing Shaken status sounds good as a quasi-defensive strategy since it lowers their attack by -2, but the description doesn't sound like it would push the detrimental status further towards frightened or anything that would provoke AoO. I'm not sure if I'm missing something here though...

[omnivir]

RIP... I apparently still don't have enough posts to be able to include links. :<

Anyways...

Current TWF Build


Sevrit - Avenger Kukri
Female vishkanya vigilante 8 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 281, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue 9)
LN Medium humanoid (vishkanya)
Hero Points 1
Init +11; Senses Perception +13
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +1 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 natural, +3 shield)
hp 73 (8d8+24)
Fort +5, Ref +12, Will +7; +8 bonus vs. poison
Defensive Abilities poison resistance, unshakable (+8)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 flaming kukri +10/+5 (1d4+15/15-20 plus 1d6 fire) or
+1 shock kukri +10/+5 (1d4+11/15-20 plus 1d6 electricity) or
mwk dagger +11/+6 (1d4+12/19-20)
Ranged composite longbow +14/+9 (1d8+2/×3)
Special Attacks startling appearance
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +7; CMD 26
Feats Improved Critical (kukri), Improved Initiative, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (kukri), Weapon Specialization (kukri)
Traits adopted, armor expert, besmara's blessing, warrior of old
Skills Acrobatics +9, Appraise +4, Bluff +9, Climb +6, Diplomacy +4, Disable Device +7, Disguise +8 (+28 to appear as part of polite society while in your social identity, +12 to look fully human), Escape Artist +11, Intimidate +9 (+13 when in your social identity, +13 in your area of renown while in your vigilante identity), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Knowledge (local) +4, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Perception +13, Ride +9, Sense Motive +7 (+11 when in your social identity), Sleight of Hand +9, Stealth +15, Survival +4, Swim +11, Use Magic Device +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Escape Artist, +2 Perception, +2 Stealth
Languages Common, Vishkanya
SQ dependent, dual identity, hero points, poison use, social grace, social talents (case the joint[UI], quick change[UI], renown[UI], social grace[UI]), subtle appearance[ARG], toxic, vigilante specialization (avenger[UI]), vigilante talents (lethal grace[UI], shield of blades[UI], signature weapon[UI], unexpected strike[UI])
Combat Gear potion of blur, potion of cure light wounds (3), potion of cure moderate wounds, potion of cure serious wounds, potion of protection from evil, potion of protection from law, potion of spider climb, potion of water breathing; Other Gear +1 studded leather, +1 flaming kukri, +1 shock kukri, composite longbow (+2 Str) with 20 arrows, mwk dagger, amulet of natural armor +1, boots of speed, bracers of archery, lesser, cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1, ring of swimming, 864 gp, 5 sp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Case the Joint (Ex) Over 1 hr make Know (eng) roll to gain rerolls based on layout if return in next week.
Dependent Shaken for 1 hour when you fail a Diplomacy check.
Dual Identity (Ex) Each identity maintains own alignment, can switch over 1 min. Magical means treat an ID as non existant while not adopted.
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Poison Resistance +8 Gain listed bonus to saves vs. poison.
Poison Use (Ex) You do not risk poisoning yourself accidentally while poisoning a weapon.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Change (Ex) Change ID as a full-round action, but easier to detect unless take 1 rd more.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Renown +4 (area of renown) (Ex) 1 week action, in chosen community +1 default attitude in social ID, bonus to Intim in vigilante ID.
Shield of Blades (Ex) When power attacking, gain penalty to attack as shield bonus to AC.
Signature Weapon (Kukri) (Ex) The vigilante must select one type of weapon (such as longsword or crossbow) when he gains this talent. He gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat for his selected weapon type. If he already has the Weapon Focus feat with the selected weapon, he can immed
Social Grace (Intimidate) +4 circumstance bonus to selected skill while in your social identity.
Social Grace (Sense Motive) +4 circumstance bonus to selected skill while in your social identity.
Startling Appearance (Ex) Attacking unaware foe makes them flat-footed and they -4 to attack you for 1 rd.
Subtle Appearance +4 on disguise checks to appear fully human.
Toxic (2/day, DC 16) (Ex) Can apply poisonous blood/saliva to a weapon as a swift action.
Unexpected Strike (Ex) Can draw a hidden weapon as a swift action.
Unshakable +8 (Ex) Add the listed bonus to the DC of foes attempting Intimidate checks against you.




Current Falchion Build


Sevrit - Avenger Falchion #2-8
Female vishkanya vigilante 8 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 281, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue 9)
LN Medium humanoid (vishkanya)
Hero Points 1
Init +3; Senses Perception +12
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 12, flat-footed 23 (+8 armor, +1 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +3 shield)
hp 73 (8d8+24)
Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +6; +8 bonus vs. poison
Defensive Abilities poison resistance, unshakable (+8)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 keen falchion +15 (4d4+19/15-20) or
mwk dagger +11 (2d4+11/19-20)
Ranged composite longbow +10 (2d8+2/×3)
Special Attacks startling appearance
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +10; CMD 25
Feats Dazzling Display, Furious Focus[APG], Gory Finish[UC], Power Attack, Shatter Defenses, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (falchion), Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Traits adopted, armor expert, besmara's blessing, warrior of old
Skills Acrobatics +4, Appraise +4, Bluff +10, Climb +8, Diplomacy +4, Disable Device +2, Disguise +8 (+28 to appear as part of polite society while in your social identity, +12 to look fully human), Escape Artist +2, Intimidate +10 (+14 when in your social identity, +14 in your area of renown while in your vigilante identity), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Perception +12, Sense Motive +9 (+13 when in your social identity), Sleight of Hand +4, Stealth +6, Survival +3, Swim +13, Use Magic Device +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Escape Artist, +2 Perception, +2 Stealth
Languages Common, Vishkanya
SQ dependent, dual identity, hero points, poison use, social grace, social talents (quick change[UI], renown[UI], safe house[UI], social grace[UI]), subtle appearance[ARG], toxic, vigilante specialization (avenger[UI]), vigilante talents (cunning feint[UI], shield of blades[UI], signature weapon[UI], vital punishment[UI])
Combat Gear potion of blur, potion of cure light wounds (3), potion of cure moderate wounds, potion of cure serious wounds, potion of protection from evil, potion of protection from law, potion of spider climb, potion of water breathing; Other Gear +2 mithral lamellar (steel) armor[UC], +1 keen falchion, composite longbow (+2 Str) with 20 arrows, mwk dagger, amulet of natural armor +1, boots of speed, bracers of archery, lesser, cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1, ring of swimming, 2,130 gp, 5 sp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Cunning Feint (Ex) Feint as move action, or as 1st att in a full att. Success denies target Dex to AC vs. all attacks for 1 rd.
Dazzling Display (Falchion) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Dependent Shaken for 1 hour when you fail a Diplomacy check.
Dual Identity (Ex) Each identity maintains own alignment, can switch over 1 min. Magical means treat an ID as non existant while not adopted.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gory Finish Make an Intimidate check if you reduce an opponent to negative hit points
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Poison Resistance +8 Gain listed bonus to saves vs. poison.
Poison Use (Ex) You do not risk poisoning yourself accidentally while poisoning a weapon.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Change (Ex) Change ID as a full-round action, but easier to detect unless take 1 rd more.
Renown +4 (area of renown) (Ex) 1 week action, in chosen community +1 default attitude in social ID, bonus to Intim in vigilante ID.
Safe House (512,000 cu. ft.) (Ex) Gain safe area protected from divinations. If have renown, can move it around area of renown.
Shield of Blades (Ex) When power attacking, gain penalty to attack as shield bonus to AC.
Signature Weapon (Falchion) (Ex) The vigilante must select one type of weapon (such as longsword or crossbow) when he gains this talent. He gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat for his selected weapon type. If he already has the Weapon Focus feat with the selected weapon, he can immed
Social Grace (Intimidate) +4 circumstance bonus to selected skill while in your social identity.
Social Grace (Sense Motive) +4 circumstance bonus to selected skill while in your social identity.
Startling Appearance (Ex) Attacking unaware foe makes them flat-footed and they -4 to attack you for 1 rd.
Subtle Appearance +4 on disguise checks to appear fully human.
Toxic (2/day, DC 16) (Ex) Can apply poisonous blood/saliva to a weapon as a swift action.
Unshakable +8 (Ex) Add the listed bonus to the DC of foes attempting Intimidate checks against you.
Vital Punishment (1/round) (Ex) Can apply Vital strike to one AoO each round.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.

[Ssalarn]

I'd consider swapping out Unexpected Strike for Cunning Feint on the TWF build. While the Quickdraw+ option is nice you're taking a lot of penalties stacking TWF and Power attack and Cunning Feint can help you buy back that accuracy while also kind of acting as a defacto party buffer. It'll cost you the attack, but the accuracy boost should serve as a strong compensator and at your level it leaves the target flat-footed against all of your allies attacks as well.