Sanity Check: Cantrip with Witchbolt rider

[Saiga]

So, With Bolt is a fairly bad spell. But the effect is interesting, even if it's not good for several reasons.

I was wondering if a (scaled down) cantrip could be worthwhile? The changes would be:

1d4 damage, down from 1d12.
Does not automatically end if the target has cover or gets out of range.
Primary AND secondary damage scales as a cantrip does: 2d4 at 5, 3d4 at 11, 4d4 at 17.

The cantrip scaling on secondary damage is the only part that has me potentially worried. But 4d4, no action required does not seem alarmingly powerful at level 17, and it eats concentration. However, compared to Call Lightning (3d10 save for half at level 3) it seems like it has too much for no spell slot usage. The range is much shorter, duration shorter, and damage generally worse (10 damage vs 16.5 on a failed save / 8.25 damage on a successful save) but other wise it does seem comparable to a third level spell.

Thoughts?

[DarkKnightJin]

Something that seems comparable to a 3rd level spell, when any full caster gets access to 9th level spells.. I'd be willing to let them have that.

As you said, it takes up Concentration, the range is shyte, and you need to recast it if the enemy ever leaves the area. Also, isn't Witch Bolt an action for the extra damage on subsequent turns?

The only 'benefit' to keeping it going, if possible, is not having to make another attack roll and possibly missing.

I'd even argue that you could bump the damage to a d6 and you'd be alright. It would make it a tougher choice. Because as you've presented, I'm not sure I'd pick the cantrip version over a Firebolt, or something like Haste. Hell, even Hex seems like it would be a better use of Conc.

[Citan]

So, With Bolt is a fairly bad spell. But the effect is interesting, even if it's not good for several reasons.

I was wondering if a (scaled down) cantrip could be worthwhile? The changes would be:

1d4 damage, down from 1d12.
Does not automatically end if the target has cover or gets out of range.
Primary AND secondary damage scales as a cantrip does: 2d4 at 5, 3d4 at 11, 4d4 at 17.

The cantrip scaling on secondary damage is the only part that has me potentially worried. But 4d4, no action required does not seem alarmingly powerful at level 17, and it eats concentration. However, compared to Call Lightning (3d10 save for half at level 3) it seems like it has too much for no spell slot usage. The range is much shorter, duration shorter, and damage generally worse (10 damage vs 16.5 on a failed save / 8.25 damage on a successful save) but other wise it does seem comparable to a third level spell.

Thoughts?
I honestly don't like at all fluff-wise the "does not end when goes out of cover or out of range" because it's like "insta-track" of a creature, but mechanically it's limited by the duration and it does instead motivate the afflicted creature to attack you if it considers the damage harming enough, so it makes for an interesting "tanking" cantrip.

Were it me, I'd still probably keep either the "break on out of sight" or "break out of range", probably break out of range in fact, and bump damage to d6 and range to 60 feet.

Still interesting imo but removes the "inescapable" thingy. Of course this is a reflection of my own taste.
Mechanically your version has no risk of imbalance from what I can think of. ;)

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Concentration is still a killer. Any caster (even an Eldritch Knight or an Arcane Trickster) has a lot of competition for their concentration slot, and this will be right at the bottom of the list. I'd only waste concentration on this in an absolutely nonthreatening fight, and I wouldn't waste a cantrip slot on something only relevant in such a low-priority scenario.

[Saiga]

Good suggestions! Adding in the range requirement seems fine. I'm glad it doesn't seem like two much.

Although if it's too underpowered right now, I didn't want it feel better than Create Bonfire (d8s, but fixed in one spot and dex save for no damage) and d6 damage feels pretty close. From what I understand Create Bonfire is pretty bad, so that may be unavoidable.

Alternatively: only the primary damage scales, but the secondary damage happens as long as you are concentrating (without an action). Does that seem reasonable/better?

[Easy_Lee]

If you're lowering it to a D4, I'd just make it a bonus action cantrip. That's unique and, while it wouldn't add a ton of damage, it would be something a lot of builds would want to pick up.

Witch Bolt
V, S
As a bonus action, choose a creature within 30 feet. That creature must make a Dexterity save or take 1D4 lightning damage. This damage increases to 2d4 at 5th level, 3d4 at 11th level, and 4d4 at 17th level.

[Saiga]

I should mention, this is intended more for Druids and maaaybe Clerics (based off World of Warcraft's Moonfire) and they don't usually get cantrips on par with Firebolt.

Edit: Easy Lee, you're saying to drop the repeated damage entirely?

[Tanarii]

Does not automatically end if the target has cover or gets out of range.Why not? Unlike Witch Bolt, this isn't a huge problem. You can just start the Cantrip over on a new target, or use a different cantrip instead. You're not losing a spell slot because of it.

Especially if the automatic secondary damage is scaling as you level up.

[Saiga]

Thematically, didn't make sense for the spell it was based on (Moonfire). Neither does concentration, but that is a pretty important balancing factor.

[MeeposFire]

Why not? Unlike Witch Bolt, this isn't a huge problem. You can just start the Cantrip over on a new target, or use a different cantrip instead. You're not losing a spell slot because of it.

Especially if the automatic secondary damage is scaling as you level up.

Forcing you to recast a bonus action spell makes it weaker since it prevents you from using a leveled spell every turn whereas if it was continuous even if it used a bonus action you would not be casting a spell and so you could cast a leveled spell.

[Avigor]

Me, if I were creating a cantrip variant of Witchbolt, I'd make it a lightning damage d6 with the special feature that if you hit the enemy, if you use the same exact cantrip on your next turn you get advantage on the attack roll. Simpler to deal with and doesn't take concentration.
Alternatively, an auto-hit that takes your bonus action and your concentration and explicitly prevents you using any spells other than a cantrip with your main action could work IMO.

[Vogie]

Alternatively, an auto-hit that takes your bonus action and your concentration and explicitly prevents you using any spells other than a cantrip with your main action could work IMO.

I really like that. You would basically be using concentration to be a cantrip gunner. It'd allow you to attack two targets the next turn (bonus action 1d4 witch bolt to the marked target, then your other cantrip to another target) without being super overpowered.

And it'd be low enough damage to not be overshadowing any "real" AoE spells.

[Vogonjeltz]

So, With Bolt is a fairly bad spell. But the effect is interesting, even if it's not good for several reasons.

I was wondering if a (scaled down) cantrip could be worthwhile? The changes would be:

1d4 damage, down from 1d12.
Does not automatically end if the target has cover or gets out of range.
Primary AND secondary damage scales as a cantrip does: 2d4 at 5, 3d4 at 11, 4d4 at 17.

The cantrip scaling on secondary damage is the only part that has me potentially worried. But 4d4, no action required does not seem alarmingly powerful at level 17, and it eats concentration. However, compared to Call Lightning (3d10 save for half at level 3) it seems like it has too much for no spell slot usage. The range is much shorter, duration shorter, and damage generally worse (10 damage vs 16.5 on a failed save / 8.25 damage on a successful save) but other wise it does seem comparable to a third level spell.

Thoughts?

Before the level at which all 1st level attack spells are surpassed by Cantrip attacks, Witch Bolt has the most potential damage you can get from a 1st level spell slot.