What would the rich & elite cultists want?

[Douche]

I'm going to try to keep this concise instead of writing the entire backstory of my campaign out, because I don't want to put anyone to sleep. But if you'd like more detail, please ask!

Essentially; in my campaign world, the BBEG is Moloch. I am going for Bohemian Grove type stuff - the rich & elite are doing crazy rituals while no one is watching, which allows them to remain in power. Their master plan is to build a device which will channel Moloch into the world.

I'm having trouble thinking of a motivation though. What do they think will happen after they channel Moloch? And why are they doing this? The phrase "To make it easier to oppress the masses" just doesn't have the same ring to it as "cuz Orcus wants to destroy all life or whatever"... even though, when you break it down like that, all villains have a pretty lame motivation.

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For further info; conspiracy theorists think that Moloch is all about child sacrifice. I'm not going to delve into that sort of stuff or anything sexual. In my world, Moloch represents needless consumption and profit above all. He's basically the god of capitalism.... let's keep the real-world merits of economic systems out of it - I just want you to know that this is sort of theme that I'm using. (I was originally inspired by the film "Metropolis", and was surprised to learn that conspiracy theorists are all about Moloch these days)

Also, not that the rich & elite would know this, but the big secret is that Moloch doesn't actually exist. He is a manufactured god. In truth, there is a big bad who was banished to the void, and has fabricated all this in order to usher his return to the world. So, while the 1% think they are going to channel the power of Moloch, they are actually being misled and are unknowingly working towards the apocalypse.

One more thing; this is a steampunk/industrial setting - as you may have guessed from my mention of Metropolis

[Telonius]

"He promised us a 35% return on investment! I mean, how are you going to beat that offer?"

[VoxRationis]

You threw it out already, but you sort of hit it on the head. Rich and powerful cultists would want to reinforce and build on their existing power and quash any notions of change in the social order (unless, of course, it were the sort of change that would benefit them directly). If cults gain power in some fashion from their worship, that power would probably be oriented towards acquiring wealth and power or preventing their rivals (particularly the lower classes) from doing so.

[Orcus The Vile]

New and dashing robes.

[JeenLeen]

I agree with most that they likely become cultists out of hopes for more riches & influence. I think it works best if 'Moloch' can do something subtle, like grant good luck or insights, to his cultists.
He promises more security and power upon his release. I guess to set up himself as a physical lord, and them and their families as his seconds?

Now, maybe some cultists don't completely trust that their god will pay once he's free. After all, once he has what he wants, he doesn't need them anymore. Don't his teachings say not to do charity? Keeping a worthless asset around is not worth doing.
So maybe some do service in hopes of gain now, but aren't so sure about the end game. It doesn't change much, but could give the PCs some 'in's into the cult.

Nice touch on the deity being a fake.

[pwykersotz]

You threw it out already, but you sort of hit it on the head. Rich and powerful cultists would want to reinforce and build on their existing power and quash any notions of change in the social order (unless, of course, it were the sort of change that would benefit them directly). If cults gain power in some fashion from their worship, that power would probably be oriented towards acquiring wealth and power or preventing their rivals (particularly the lower classes) from doing so.

If they're already rich and powerful, they aren't going to go full cultist for reassurance when something isn't wrong. They're going to do it because something is wrong (or a lot of things) and their existing strategies aren't working.

Take the movie Hot Fuzz. There were problems that couldn't be solved by the normal, law abiding method. So the crazy cult of elites took their own path to "the greater good."

Any problem which is constant, a vexation or a reminder of past indiscretions which could jeopardize their position would work.
"That peasant keeps rallying people against us! Taking him out would be suspicious, but maybe some demonic influence would make him less trustworthy!"
"My illegitimate heir has documented proof of my parentage that will humiliate me. They need to be broken and crazy so their testimony will be discarded."
"The impoverished are like a disease unto themselves. Always rattling at my gates for scraps. A terror to roam the streets and consume them would be so nice."

Just some ideas.

[Douche]

If they're already rich and powerful, they aren't going to go full cultist for reassurance when something isn't wrong. They're going to do it because something is wrong (or a lot of things) and their existing strategies aren't working.

Take the movie Hot Fuzz. There were problems that couldn't be solved by the normal, law abiding method. So the crazy cult of elites took their own path to "the greater good."

Any problem which is constant, a vexation or a reminder of past indiscretions which could jeopardize their position would work.
"That peasant keeps rallying people against us! Taking him out would be suspicious, but maybe some demonic influence would make him less trustworthy!"
"My illegitimate heir has documented proof of my parentage that will humiliate me. They need to be broken and crazy so their testimony will be discarded."
"The impoverished are like a disease unto themselves. Always rattling at my gates for scraps. A terror to roam the streets and consume them would be so nice."

Just some ideas.

Interesting, but it operates on the premise that they all buy into it 100%

In my opinion, a lot of the elites of society don't buy into all the occult stuff you see with the Bohemian Grove, Skull & Bones, etc. But they know it is a pathway to connections & prestige that they need for success. They might think it's all pageantry and fluff, they might not enjoy it, but they suffer it because they need to so they can be part of the elite.

You're seeing a lot of this stuff today, where the Hollywood elite are obviously hiding dark secrets, and have a guilty conscience over it for fear of being blacklisted - or worse.

That's the sort of stuff I'm going for. So, perhaps it was wrong to call them cultists... that carries the connotation of blind fanaticism. That's not what's binding the elite of society though - rather, it is their own selfishness, and knowing that they must be a part of the cabal to climb higher.

[Nifft]

"Moloch says that seven other groups are trying to channel Moloch into the world. Whichever group does it first will have his favor. You don't want to lose Moloch's favor, do you?"

Arms races can make people do very stupid things.

[comicshorse]

Immortality, after all why should they die like an ordinary person

[JeenLeen]

Do you have a definite idea of what Moloch can do in the physical world? Knowing what 'proof' or 'favors' can be provided could help us give advice.

---
I really like Nifft's idea for encouraging legitimate cultists, and your idea of social/peer pressure. Add in superstition for the few that do get some big breaks after worshipping Moloch making others think it could be legit, and you get folk willing to do the <to them, fairly harmless> rituals. Then maybe get into some darker stuff, if you want it to go that way.

The outermost layer of the 'cult' just looks like aristocrats do some ritualized stuff. To a god of commerce and riches. Makes sense. Mostly it's a social hang out and some minor connections.

But some seem to have more favor and offers of aid or advice. So the inner circle does some stuff a little more iffy, but it goes into some really good social connections, so those who are deemed worthy usually go for it.

While the real inner circle, full of fervent cultists (or some who got sucked in and are now scared to to say anything), does the real cult-y activities.

[Mastikator]

If they continue then they get to live on indefinitely. If they stop or try to flee or tell anyone then Moloch gets to eat their soul, they die immediately.

You get everything you ever wanted but the price is everything you ever were.

[Anymage]

I'd play it slightly differently. Instead of actively trying to channel Moloch into this world, imagine that he can only channel so much energy through his prison at the moment to give fortune to his disciplines. The more holes they punch into his prison, the more power he can channel to them.

Of course busting up the prison too much means that Moloch gets to get out. But simple human greed, ignorance of both the consequences and how much wiggle room they actually have, and tragedy of the commons (you may not be doing appreciable damage to the prison personally, but so long as other people are damaging it to get rewards, you're not going to stop your bit of the collective assault either) means that people will still keep performing rituals for power*, and still have the same net effect even if they're not quite so upfront about wanting to herald the apocalypse.

*("Power" meaning different things to different people. And while of course a wealthy and connected industrialist could gather the elements to perform a more effective ritual, it might be interesting to see what other characters consider power every now and then.)

[Nifft]

I really like Nifft's idea for encouraging legitimate cultists, and your idea of social/peer pressure. Add in superstition for the few that do get some big breaks after worshipping Moloch making others think it could be legit, and you get folk willing to do the <to them, fairly harmless> rituals. Then maybe get into some darker stuff, if you want it to go that way.

Thanks!

Thinking about it, this motivation dovetails really nicely with high-pressure capitalism & sales tactics.

"Only one hundred cultists will be favored. Secure your position today! Call 1-800-BIND-MOL right now. Osyluths are standing by."

[Dr_Dinosaur]

The rich elite always want two things: to remain rich and elite and to become richer and more elite. All religious messages aimed at them are thus best received when claiming to ensure one or both of those things.

So Moloch has probably offered security or gain here that they'd be focused on.

[Douche]

Do you have a definite idea of what Moloch can do in the physical world? Knowing what 'proof' or 'favors' can be provided could help us give advice.

---
I really like Nifft's idea for encouraging legitimate cultists, and your idea of social/peer pressure. Add in superstition for the few that do get some big breaks after worshipping Moloch making others think it could be legit, and you get folk willing to do the <to them, fairly harmless> rituals. Then maybe get into some darker stuff, if you want it to go that way.

The outermost layer of the 'cult' just looks like aristocrats do some ritualized stuff. To a god of commerce and riches. Makes sense. Mostly it's a social hang out and some minor connections.

But some seem to have more favor and offers of aid or advice. So the inner circle does some stuff a little more iffy, but it goes into some really good social connections, so those who are deemed worthy usually go for it.

While the real inner circle, full of fervent cultists (or some who got sucked in and are now scared to to say anything), does the real cult-y activities.

Yeah, y'know, that actually sounds good. I like the idea of having the "cultists" compete against each other. It's not just about their devotion to their god, it's about one-upping each other. When your god is capitalism, then even your allies are foes on the road to gorging yourself on all the money & resources you can get your grubby hands on!

Edit: also, to answer your question... Here's the deal; this campaign is actually based on a video game called Arcanum. Here's the final monologue from the villain if it helps you understand his motivation. In essence, he wants to exterminate all life because he thinks it is an aberration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMZi217RUUY

In terms of what he could do for his followers; I actually replied to the guy below this and accidentally answered your question. I don't imagine that Moloch will do anything for these people - they simply get richer and ascribe that success to Moloch. Although, the people who actually know what is going on - they have access to void magic & stuff like that. The real lieutenants of Moloch understand that they are using dark, blasphemous magic, and that things are more serious than simply becoming richer & more influential.


I'd play it slightly differently. Instead of actively trying to channel Moloch into this world, imagine that he can only channel so much energy through his prison at the moment to give fortune to his disciplines. The more holes they punch into his prison, the more power he can channel to them.

That'd be interesting but remember, Moloch doesn't even actually exist. He's simply using these people, and doesn't care enough to even grant them any power. They think they've all gotten rich because of him, but really he's just taking credit. Of course, once they've joined the cult, then they do see their wealth increase... thanks to the networking, not any supernatural force.

[sleepy hedgehog]

Assuming they are getting some benefit out of doing it.

Because it's making us a lot of money, consistently, ever since we started doing it.
I mean it's not like we're hurting anyone.

(You don't consider peasants a person do you?
There is no way a thing of that status could ever be the same as us.
So we aren't doing anything evil.)

Alternatively, something like schisms or civil war/strife, is a great way to convince people to risk one step further for the good of everyone.

Or for their descendants. People will go to incredible lengths, even beyond what they would do for themselves, to forward their legacy and name.

[Grek]

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Is my go to reference for when I need to get into the mindset of demonic capitalism. (Which is different from real life capitalism, in that there are demons involved.)

Why drug the workers? Because if you don't, the workers won't work 18 hours a day and you'll go out of business. And then your replacement will do it instead.
Why pour poison into the water? Because if you don't, the you have to find somewhere else to dump it and you'll go out of business. And then your replacement will do it instead.
Why sacrifice your firstborn to the bonfire? Because if you don't, the investors will worry you're not committed enough and you'll go out of business. And then your replacement will do it instead.

[pwykersotz]

Interesting, but it operates on the premise that they all buy into it 100%

In my opinion, a lot of the elites of society don't buy into all the occult stuff you see with the Bohemian Grove, Skull & Bones, etc. But they know it is a pathway to connections & prestige that they need for success. They might think it's all pageantry and fluff, they might not enjoy it, but they suffer it because they need to so they can be part of the elite.

You're seeing a lot of this stuff today, where the Hollywood elite are obviously hiding dark secrets, and have a guilty conscience over it for fear of being blacklisted - or worse.

That's the sort of stuff I'm going for. So, perhaps it was wrong to call them cultists... that carries the connotation of blind fanaticism. That's not what's binding the elite of society though - rather, it is their own selfishness, and knowing that they must be a part of the cabal to climb higher.

Huh...I clearly misunderstood. I thought you were needing motivations to channel a dark power. Inner circle sort of stuff. But if you're going for the less directly malicious, I suppose the best motivations are basic and understandable ones.
"I want to join the academy, no matter the cost."
"I want to have my name sung in stories, no matter the cost."
"I want to have a nice house and lots of stuff, no matter the cost."

Make that "no matter the cost" small at first. Small favors for problems just going away. Then have the people involved be asked for the occasional favor as well, that's the machine at work after all. Small things like securing a key to a locked building that only they have access to. The stuff there isn't worth THAT much. Maybe waylaying a person outside a shop for a while to make sure they don't get home on time. Then progressively darker things if needed. They know it's wrong, but they're achieving their goals!

Eventually when they're rich and famous, they keep the machine going because it knows their secrets. If they don't, they'll be revealed. Sure, they never did anything directly, but they suspect/know their hands are bloody in some way. But as long as they keep the machine happy and fed, there's practically no risk at all.

So yeah, I guess my direct answer is that simple, boring, human motivations for ordinary things are resonant, and just a few less scruples than normal might lead down a very dark path. And they're amazingly fun to reveal, because the players will be completely gobsmacked that a simple desire could go so far.

[Avigor]

This seems to me to boil down to this core question: Why bring a new power player who will immediately claim the top slot of the hierarchy and quite possibly rearrange it onto the board?

The way I see it, there will be 3 kinds of people legitimately seeking this:
1: Those with more loyalty than ambition. If they are evil, it would be more (if not totally) due to methods or sadism, not thirst for power.
2: The powerless, including those who feel that their existing power is threatened, who stand to gain by their patron's rise.
3: The fearful, who believe their patron's rise is inevitable, and all who oppose them will be crushed.

To the ambitious elite, this is a bad thing. They won't be above using the cult to make connections or otherwise gain power, and any (rare) sabotage attempts will be subtle, but they will not do more than the bare minimum to avoid the other cultists and the patron themselves from getting angry.

For an example, think of the Death Eaters. Lucious Malfoy really doesn't want Voldemort to rise again, but he won't openly oppose him, and immediately kisses up to him upon his return. Heck, I'm not the only one who has realized this: the only time I've ever seen a fanfic have Lucious take Wormtail's place in the ritual had him first lose everything, and I've seen multiple fanfics have one or more of the Malfoys thinking (or even saying) that Voldemort's return would be a disaster for their family.

[Gideon Falcon]

One idea- as the general consensus is to find a way to be even more elite, create some form of legendary 'race' that 'Moloch' promises to uplift them to- in describing this hypothetical race, pull out all the stops; use heavily enamored language, like a teenage girl writing Lord of the Rings fanfiction. Present them as Absolutely Positively Really Perfect, just the most amazing and pretty and sparkly and better than anybody else; the more unrealistic it sounds, the better. To the players, it should sound like a stupid and slightly creepy Crystal Spires and Togas Hippy-commune type deal, but the cultists just eat it up. They want to be special, more special than a boring old human/elf/whatever could possibly be; and Moloch promises Suedom.

This also presents a perfect opportunity for one of the consequences of the void-god being released to be a far more twisted transformation- maybe they become outright hideous, maybe they become eerily doll-like and plainly hollow (in fact, literally making them hollow could be a great, creepy metaphor for their shallowness). Either way, they could become perfect high-level mooks for the players to wade through to the real BBEG.

[Douche]

One idea- as the general consensus is to find a way to be even more elite, create some form of legendary 'race' that 'Moloch' promises to uplift them to- in describing this hypothetical race, pull out all the stops; use heavily enamored language, like a teenage girl writing Lord of the Rings fanfiction. Present them as Absolutely Positively Really Perfect, just the most amazing and pretty and sparkly and better than anybody else; the more unrealistic it sounds, the better. To the players, it should sound like a stupid and slightly creepy Crystal Spires and Togas Hippy-commune type deal, but the cultists just eat it up. They want to be special, more special than a boring old human/elf/whatever could possibly be; and Moloch promises Suedom.

This also presents a perfect opportunity for one of the consequences of the void-god being released to be a far more twisted transformation- maybe they become outright hideous, maybe they become eerily doll-like and plainly hollow (in fact, literally making them hollow could be a great, creepy metaphor for their shallowness). Either way, they could become perfect high-level mooks for the players to wade through to the real BBEG.

I really like this! That's a lot more tangible than becoming "more rich" when you're already among the richest in the world. It also fits in really well because, in my setting, I defined Tieflings not as their own race, but rather as a transformation that occurs from making a warlock pact. You can be born human & turn into a squid-faced Tiefling by making a GoO pact, for instance.

Thanks!

Only problem is that I have already done some exposition. I should've mentioned that before... I already went with the "more richer" thing because I hadn't really thought it out too much, lol. Any advice on how to retcon?

Here's the deal: one dude who was low on the totem pole said that "When Moloch enters the world, we will be able to consume endlessly!"

Another guy who is more skeptical said "They don't really know what they're after - they hear what they want. They're all just along for the ride, and think being a part of [the cult] will give them more power"

....

One other detail - there are the rich & elite who dress up and go to these masquerade/Bohemian Grove type events. Then there are the actual cultists who dress up in grey robes and do the dirty work. Above all them, though, are the Dark Elves who helped the Big Bad orchestrate this whole religion. They're the ones who really know what's going on - along with the upper echelon of the rich guys. Maybe it'll only be the Dark Elves & grey robes who are promised to ascend to the "master race" type stuff (definitely not using that nomenclature at the table lol)


I feel like I'm rambling but this brainstorming stuff is really helping a lot, thanks guys!

[Pleh]

My thoughts:

1. Moloch has another layer of deception. He's already here, but not in his full power. In his semi mortal form, he has risen (as a natural master of industry) to a high social status, but he's smart enough to stay out of the spotlight: the power behind the throne. He is one of the noble conspirators, always guiding their plans without seeming to lead them. Each of the conspirators have different reasons he takes advantage of: one seeks glory even if it ends the world, one believes Moloch a myth, but the conspiracy is profitable, another Moloch is blackmailing, etc.
2. With the increase of capitalism and industry, social progress is elevating the lower classes, pressuring the upper class and aristocracy. Moloch is, of course, financing and inciting the riots, because the social pressure is necessary to force the hands of the less willing members of the noble conspirators.

[Dalinale]

Only problem is that I have already done some exposition. I should've mentioned that before... I already went with the "more richer" thing because I hadn't really thought it out too much, lol. Any advice on how to retcon?

Here's the deal: one dude who was low on the totem pole said that "When Moloch enters the world, we will be able to consume endlessly!"

Another guy who is more skeptical said "They don't really know what they're after - they hear what they want. They're all just along for the ride, and think being a part of [the cult] will give them more power"

I wouldn't be afraid to have different sections of the cult know different things, even among the higher ups. The group from City A might be working on a different level then the guys from Rich Country Estate Land A or the ones in the Pacific Northwest Equivalent B. Might tie it with different clubs or break out one of those conspiracy hierarchy charts and label some 'special families' or rich priests and the like and see if the party can't get a corkboard covered in pictures and string going. Some really rich individuals might be lesser on the totem pole then the party might assume they are because even if they're rich, they're not among the priestly bloodline that's held ancestral lands for the last thousand years, for example.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

So you’ve told the players that some of them believe endless hedonism awaits them, but most just hear what they want? That barely even requires a retcon! Recall the fabulous feasts and idyllic pleasures of Tolkein’s elves and the more humanlike gods of various myths. They’re only being directly told the parts of the deal most tempting to them, then drip-fed “perks” on top of that, promises of even more but mostly “your favorite.”

Of course only the real higher ups know about the Hollowing bit. And who knows, maybe supplicants really do experience their greedy little desires mentally in that state, while their bodies and souls are bound to Moloch’s will!

[Metahuman1]

I'd put my vote in for Immortality and "Other Groups are also trying to do this. I will grant the immortality to the most collectively competent group. Which is the one that gets me free first.




Yes, the group that frees me of the 8 groups, all of them and there family lines will be forever alive. Forever in there physical primes. Forever healthy and fair to look upon. There wounds, no matter how grievous, will become whole immediately, even a fully destroyed body will only be a few moments of discomfort and delay and annoyance for you, for all eternity. And if you remain loyal after that, my more subtle influences can still be attained, as they have been in the past, but to more extensive scales. It means you will not only have this blessed eternity, you will also have as much or more status and wealth and power as you do now for that same eternity. Security in a position at the top of the world, and in time, the universe."


If he can consistently give them more material things that they want, that would be a damn tempting offer for most people. And add in that there's that Arms Race aspect that they think is in play, and well, suddenly it becomes plausible that they'd be trying to do this.





And it still remains plausible that some of them are here for the current immediate benefits, but don't trust or buy that it's word or promises can or will be kept if they free it. Too good to be true so it probably is and all that.

[Sinewmire]

I always figured that doomsday cultists are playing a mixed despair/optimism game.

A) The world is doomed, DOOMED so it doesn't matter if I make it worse.

B) The world isn't going to slide into hell in my lifetime, so making that happen sooner won't affect me.

Also don't forget that once you amass all the wealth, the only way to be richer is to make others poorer.

Also even rich and powerful people think they're "just about getting by" - the Clintons said that they are poor compared to their neighbourhood. I'm just a millionaire, if only I could make it big like those billionaires... :smallfrown:

[Nerd-o-rama]

In order to get affluent, you can work hard or you can exploit people.

In order to get rich, you pretty much have to exploit someone, whether it's your laborers, the competition, the government, your own family, an underdeveloped foreign continent, whatever.

When you get really, really rich you tend to just exploit people out of habit. It's "good business sense" or "the natural order of things", but sometimes you take it too far.

People who are exploited tend to get angry. Sometimes violently angry, sometimes angry enough to learn to use your system against you, sometimes angry enough just to blab and cause problems. Regardless, it's a reason for the rich and powerful to be fearful of other people they can't necessarily dismiss just because they're easy to walk over, or because they have a lot of money.

When the rich and powerful are fearful, they seek means of protecting themselves. Some of them aren't going to settle for hired guards and bribed judges...especially when "Moloch" is willing to promise them not just protection, but more power to exploit more people and gain even more wealth and power, just in exchange for some occasional rituals involving orphans and beggars no one really cares about.


Alternatively, they need (want, obsessively) something money and privilege can't get them, or that their own money can't get them right now. The revival of a dead lover who won't accept a normal ressurection, protection from being caught out in a lie or a scandal or an affair that will end their career and has already started going public, recouping losses from a ship that sank in a storm and bankrupted them...the list goes on. Honestly, having a lot of power but not quite enough can cause as much desperation as having no power.

[Segev]

While I object to "Capitalism" being equated to "needless consumption" on a number of levels, that's the only part I take issue with in terms of there being an evil cult motivated as you suggest.

That said, you're right, they don't want to "oppress the little guys." They can already do that. No, they want to secure THEIR position at the top. Evil people at the top of any social and economic ladder want to kick that ladder down behind them, because there's only so much room at the top and they are at least as concerned with keeping others from getting above them as they are with further elevation. There is an enviousness and jealousy that consumes people such that they would rather stay at a level they're at and keep everyone lower down than them, than elevate themselves if it would allow others to get ABOVE them.

So summoning Moloch promises them only one being above them in the hierarchy: Moloch. And as a reward for bringing him about, he will secure them in their positions forever. They will not have to worry about anybody else ever getting better than them, or about losing what they have. Moloch assures this by starving the economy of wealth and resources, consuming anything that could be reinvested in elevating anybody for himself and for his loyal cultists. The commoners will never be able to rise above their rightful station under the nobles' feet because any resources they try to gather to fuel such a rise get sucked up by Moloch and his minions to further enrich themselves.

They don't technically NEED Moloch for this, but he provides supernatural might and power to secure it against any revolt. And maybe insight to ensure no riches that "rightfully" should be sucked up to the top are hoarded by the ungrateful masses.

[Leewei]

Status may be the ultimate goal, but there is window dressing to consider.

For example, there is a notion that success indicates virtue, since the gods smile on the virtuous.

Another notion to work in is that of the unworthy poor. Someone who lacks wealth does so because they are insufficiently virtuous -- perhaps they're lazy, or they drink excessively, or their families are too large because they cannot control their carnal urges.

Consider that conspicuous consumption has an evolutionary aspect similar to a peacock's tail. It signals fitness and virility.

The priesthood of this cult may resemble a Ponzi scheme. Pay in, get immediate, impressive returns, pay in far more with the same expectation.

[A Tad Insane]

*darkest dungeon spoilers*

They're bored (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iHT5YLTZa_w)

[Thinker]

My idea is that the rich elite all rely on a central authority for their own power. We'll call him the Mayor for all intents and purposes, but it could be King, Lord Protector, Chancellor, High Priest, President, or any other title. They scheme against one another, but it is kept in check by the Mayor and so long as the Mayor is kept happy, they all generally prosper. When the Mayor is unhappy with an individual, that person and his/her allies are attacked viciously and end up either imprisoned, dead, or destitute. So, turning to the Cult of Moloch, our Mayor is getting a bit long in the tooth and he is beginning to worry about what will happen after he is gone. He has survived assassination attempts, ruined rival houses, and become the wealthiest and most powerful man in his domain. Now, he has learned that Moloch can extend his life if he does Moloch small favors. So, for the first few years, maybe even a decade, the King does small things, but they're things that help him, too and he's in the best shape of his life. The Mayor knows that Moloch is not a welcome name throughout the rest of the region so he keeps it to himself, but Moloch demands more than these small favors.

The Mayor begins to have small gatherings involving curiosities from ancient kingdoms and religions. They put on funny hats and pretend they're pharaohs or viziers or whatnot and the elite keep their secret gatherings to themselves. Eventually, the secret society is turned to worshiping Moloch and they see their lives are better for it. Finally, Moloch reveals to his cult that they can have everlasting life in the afterworld and remain in control of their domains and wealth even in the thereafter. It sure beats playing some harps while sitting around waiting for the end of days. So, they take the deal.

[Segev]

My idea is that the rich elite all rely on a central authority for their own power. We'll call him the Mayor for all intents and purposes, but it could be King, Lord Protector, Chancellor, High Priest, President, or any other title. They scheme against one another, but it is kept in check by the Mayor and so long as the Mayor is kept happy, they all generally prosper. When the Mayor is unhappy with an individual, that person and his/her allies are attacked viciously and end up either imprisoned, dead, or destitute. So, turning to the Cult of Moloch, our Mayor is getting a bit long in the tooth and he is beginning to worry about what will happen after he is gone. He has survived assassination attempts, ruined rival houses, and become the wealthiest and most powerful man in his domain. Now, he has learned that Moloch can extend his life if he does Moloch small favors. So, for the first few years, maybe even a decade, the King does small things, but they're things that help him, too and he's in the best shape of his life. The Mayor knows that Moloch is not a welcome name throughout the rest of the region so he keeps it to himself, but Moloch demands more than these small favors.

The Mayor begins to have small gatherings involving curiosities from ancient kingdoms and religions. They put on funny hats and pretend they're pharaohs or viziers or whatnot and the elite keep their secret gatherings to themselves. Eventually, the secret society is turned to worshiping Moloch and they see their lives are better for it. Finally, Moloch reveals to his cult that they can have everlasting life in the afterworld and remain in control of their domains and wealth even in the thereafter. It sure beats playing some harps while sitting around waiting for the end of days. So, they take the deal.

Oh, hello Mammon. (Actually, Moloch as presented in this thread and Mammon already have a lot in common, but this post just really clicked it for me.)

[Thinker]

Oh, hello Mammon. (Actually, Moloch as presented in this thread and Mammon already have a lot in common, but this post just really clicked it for me.)

I guess I should have thrown child sacrifice in there somewhere. Maybe it's step 13 on Moloch's path to the afterlife. But really, what would rich and powerful people want for after they die? To continue to be rich and powerful, to continue to be better than everyone else.

[Segev]

I guess I should have thrown child sacrifice in there somewhere. Maybe it's step 13 on Moloch's path to the afterlife. But really, what would rich and powerful people want for after they die? To continue to be rich and powerful, to continue to be better than everyone else.

Or never to die. "I'm too wealthy to die!"

Though "to take it with them" in one form or another would be a good backup prize. The Egyptians believed you could, after all.

[Thinker]

Or never to die. "I'm too wealthy to die!"

Though "to take it with them" in one form or another would be a good backup prize. The Egyptians believed you could, after all.

Never dying is cliche for powerful figures in fantasy right now. The Witch Kings, Voldemort, etc.

[Nifft]

Never dying is cliche for powerful figures in fantasy right now. The Witch Kings, Voldemort, etc.

That's because fantasy didn't exist until very recently.

A desire to avoid death is pretty primary to the human condition.

The idea of doing evil to avoid death goes back way farther than the fantasy genre of literature.

[Thinker]

That's because fantasy didn't exist until very recently.

A desire to avoid death is pretty primary to the human condition.

The idea of doing evil to avoid death goes back way farther than the fantasy genre of literature.

I don't disagree, but it seems like fantasy is saturated with that sort of motivation for antagonists right now. In my scenario, I was specifically avoiding the immortality trope common in fantasy at the moment.

[Segev]

I won't disagree with your desire to avoid the immortality trope, though I will snicker at the notion that it's anything new.

Securing their wealth and position against the "undeserving" masses would be at the top of their list of possible motivations, then, I think. They have theirs; now it's time to make sure nobody else can get it.

[Thinker]

I won't disagree with your desire to avoid the immortality trope, though I will snicker at the notion that it's anything new.

Securing their wealth and position against the "undeserving" masses would be at the top of their list of possible motivations, then, I think. They have theirs; now it's time to make sure nobody else can get it.

Certainly there's nothing new under the sun, but there are times when the same trope or idea gets trotted out over and over again that makes a thing less desirable. Remember when zombies were in? Everything was zombies. I think it's best to avoid following the trend when possible, or at least to rebel against it in some ways.

As for the undeserving masses, they wouldn't know what to do with my wealth and power if they got it. Can you imagine? A cobbler trying to be mayor! Why, I laugh at the notion!

[Segev]

Certainly there's nothing new under the sun, but there are times when the same trope or idea gets trotted out over and over again that makes a thing less desirable. Remember when zombies were in? Everything was zombies. I think it's best to avoid following the trend when possible, or at least to rebel against it in some ways.:smallfurious: Those were GHOULS, not ZOMBIES! ARGH!


As for the undeserving masses, they wouldn't know what to do with my wealth and power if they got it. Can you imagine? A cobbler trying to be mayor! Why, I laugh at the notion!And that's why you should bring Moloch into this world, lest such peasants get strange notions and attempt to upset the rightful order.

[Douche]

Yeah immortality is kind of boring tbh - no offense. I want to try to keep the themes in a sort of real-world "deep state" ballpark, despite the fact that it's D&D lol. More of Game of Thrones, less Harry Potter.


While I object to "Capitalism" being equated to "needless consumption" on a number of levels, that's the only part I take issue with in terms of there being an evil cult motivated as you suggest.

The darker elements of capitalism, I think needless consumption is a strong thread... Hummers, gold plated toilets, private islands. Imperialism, sapping resources, etc.

This doesn't reflect my views, though. I don't want to elucidate because then we'd probably start breaking rules and starting political arguments, lol.... All I'm saying is that it's a theme I'd like to explore, even if I prefer it to the alternative haha

[Nifft]

Yeah immortality is kind of boring tbh - no offense. I want to try to keep the themes in a sort of real-world "deep state" ballpark, despite the fact that it's D&D lol. More of Game of Thrones, less Harry Potter.

The real-world has aristocratic families which direct the state through use of money and power. That's the only real "deep state" -- it's just some rich & powerful people behaving like some of the rich & powerful always have, in accumulating more power & squashing any innovation that might disrupt their status.

One obstructive, conservative, anti-innovation immortal wouldn't be much different.

On the other hand, what if the immortal saw how the dinosaurs became extinct, and decided: "No, that's not going to be me. Humanity will reach the stars, so I can spend eternity visiting interesting new places."

[Honest Tiefling]

So...Moloch might destroy this world. If you have any planar elements, this might only be a slight issue if the cultists can secure passage to an even better place. The device might wreck this place, but they could siphon off power to make a better plane, or secure the means to take over a nicer bit of planar real estate.

So long, suckers!

[Segev]

The darker elements of capitalism, I think needless consumption is a strong thread... Hummers, gold plated toilets, private islands. Imperialism, sapping resources, etc.

This doesn't reflect my views, though. I don't want to elucidate because then we'd probably start breaking rules and starting political arguments, lol.... All I'm saying is that it's a theme I'd like to explore, even if I prefer it to the alternative haha

Like I said, I don't think that describes a problem with capitalism. It's just a problem with greed in general. But yeah, not really a topic for this forum.

[Nifft]

Like I said, I don't think that describes a problem with capitalism. It's just a problem with greed in general. But yeah, not really a topic for this forum.

There is a strong association between greed and capitalism:


https://i.imgur.com/NxtxLq0.jpg


Whether it's accurate IRL or not is a separate topic -- the association is there, and you can surely use it in a game.

[Segev]

There is a strong association between greed and capitalism:

Whether it's accurate IRL or not is a separate topic -- the association is there, and you can surely use it in a game.

Eh. There's also a strong association between things that are not politically correct anymore to point out, but are still brought up as stereotypes that need to be expunged due to the harm they cause. I will refrain from mentioning them, because I know the mere mention will offend people, and no amount of saying "I agree that this is NOT TRUE" will assuage the ire and discomfiture.

However, for much the same reason we don't support reinforcement of false negative stereotypes in one area, I dislike reinforcing it in this one. Especially since the usual go-to alternative economic systems actually inculcate far GREATER greed while getting a pass for it because they supposedly have "good intentions."

[Nifft]

Eh. There's also a strong association between things that are not politically correct anymore to point out, but are still brought up as stereotypes that need to be expunged due to the harm they cause. I will refrain from mentioning them, because I know the mere mention will offend people, and no amount of saying "I agree that this is NOT TRUE" will assuage the ire and discomfiture.

However, for much the same reason we don't support reinforcement of false negative stereotypes in one area, I dislike reinforcing it in this one. Especially since the usual go-to alternative economic systems actually inculcate far GREATER greed while getting a pass for it because they supposedly have "good intentions."

The areas where stereotypes are actively so bad that they need to be stomped out are areas where the stereotypes are about people (or groups of people).


Anyway. The free market is a wonderful thing, and I like it a lot more than I like the capitalists who are trying relentlessly to destroy it.

I'm going to assume that you're trying to defend the free market (which is a thing that I also like), but you've conflated the free market with capitalism, and you think the only two economic choices are "planned central economy" or "capitalist free market".

I'm certainly equating capitalism with greed, but this is NOT the same as asking for a planned central economy.

Free markets are actually more free without oligarchs.

[Segev]

The areas where stereotypes are actively so bad that they need to be stomped out are areas where the stereotypes are about people (or groups of people).Capitalists are people/a group of people. ;P

[GreatKaiserNui]

I'd play them like the historical Hellfire club, a bunch of revelers that use a secret society as an excuse for decedent behavior with tongue firmly in cheek but not caring one bit if it 'really counts' or not.

[Nifft]

I'd play them like the historical Hellfire club, a bunch of revelers that use a secret society as an excuse for decedent behavior with tongue firmly in cheek but not caring one bit if it 'really counts' or not.

"It's the weekend. Carbs and human sacrifices don't count."

[Wardog]

Ennui.

When you're already as rich as you can be, and can afford any material comforts you could desire, what can you do that's actually interesting?

I know - join this crazy secret society and go and do all sorts of edgy stuff in dark forests/crypts/etc, that all the boring normal people won't have a clue about! So what if you're performing a ritual to summon an eldritch abomination - its not actually real. And even if it is, you can't possibly come to any harm - you're the elite, and bad stuff just doesn't happen to people like you. Right?

[Psikerlord]

Cultists do their rituals and sacrifices etc for magic. Magic which gives them useful powers that no-one else has. Maybe one learns to read minds. Maybe another can charm people. Or see the past. or whatever. But they commit these horrible ceremonies coz they get special adn important stuff no-one else gets. If there was an easier way to get such stuff, they would do it the easier way. But there isnt.

[faustin]

Remember the Delta Zeta Kappa frat from Buffy? They worshipped the demon Machida, who granted them and their families the supernatural luck in bussines which allowed them to become and remain rich and privileged forever.
And the price ? Not much. Just the occasional virgin each year. Come on, who wouldn't jump at that deal?
Of course, there is the thing of what happens if the sacrifices ever stop or the demon is killed by the meddling band of heroes.