Moving Grappled creatures, do you require PCs move into an area first?

[Tanarii]

Here's exactly what grappling says:
"Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."

Do you allow players to move a creature ahead of them or beside them as they move?
Or do players have to move into areas first, moving creatures they have grappled behind them? (How I interpret 'drag')
Do players keep the creature in their 'space' as they move, then put them in any adjacent location once they are done moving? (How I interpret 'carry')

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This question was prompted because in the Ancients Paladin thread, I questioned the usefulness of Moonbeam, and (quite rightly) had some things I had overlooked pointed out to me. :smallbiggrin:

One thing that jumped out at me from the responses was to wonder if some DMs allow players to move creatures ahead or beside them when they have them grappled, as opposed to moving them along behind them (grab) or temporarily in their space (carrying) until the end of the move.

An example of where only allowing both of these ways of moving via grapple would make a huge difference is Spike Growth, where damage is caused by moving through the area.

If you allow carrying to work the way I'm interpreting it, it would have less impact on something like Moonbeam, which triggers once per turn, when the creature is dumped into it at the end of the PC moving adjacent to it. Or throwing someone over the Schrodinger's cliff that always seems to appear when someone needs it.

If you only allow creatures to be moved through areas / spaces the PC has already moved through, this affects trying to utilize any damaging area affect.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've never had it come up in game, so I'm not exactly sure how I'd rule it. Makes sense to me to rule that you can move them in any direction (mental model: picking someone up and moving them), but it also makes sense that they can only be dragged behind the PC (mental model: dragging someone while walking backward). I'd probably let the PC do whatever seems the most fun unless they tried to abuse it (somehow, not even sure how). The effects on spells seem minor aren't a problem for me. I don't think, anyway.

Related question--if creature A is grappled by monster M, can creature B walk up and "contest the grapple"/"pull creature A away from M"? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no" by RAW, but...I've allowed it to happen with an opposed grapple check between B and M (as long as A is not resisting/unconscious). M gets an opportunity attack if they move away, however, and it takes an action. Is that reasonable?

[Eric Diaz]

Would let the PC push the enemy in the Spike Growth (or cliff etc) - yes.

Would let the PC do it 3 times with a move action, moving in and out of the Spike Growth without suffering damage himself - probably not.

[Tanarii]

Related question--if creature A is grappled by monster M, can creature B walk up and "contest the grapple"/"pull creature A away from M"? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no" by RAW, but...I've allowed it to happen with an opposed grapple check between B and M (as long as A is not resisting/unconscious). M gets an opportunity attack if they move away, however, and it takes an action. Is that reasonable?They can do it by Shoving either creature away from the other.

But I like the idea of opposed checks between two creatures trying to grapple a third, to determine if you can move the creature away from another grappling creature. I'd probably resolve as:
- use an attack to grapple the third party creature being grappled first*, as normal
- have an opposed the opposed Strength check** to determine if you get to pull them away from the other grappling creature
- opportunity attack against the new grappler if they move away***

*automatic if an ally doesn't resist being grappled?
**include Athletics proficiency?
***Probably not against the grapplee, who is being force moved. This makes me realize I need to review the OA rule wording, because I've been assuming forced movement doesn't provoke OAs.


Would let the PC push the enemy in the Spike Growth (or cliff etc) - yes.For clarity, I assume you mean move a grappled creature into a space adjacent to them that has Spike Growth or is over a cliff?
I mean, it's certainly possible to envision the in-game actions of moving a creature in front of you as a push. But I avoided using that word intentionally because it makes me think of the Shove action. :smallwink:

[jas61292]

Personally, what I do is rule that you move them however you want, but they move relative to you if you move. Doesn't matter to me if you are pushing or pulling them. And as far as movement, I treat the double part as costing movement for each character separately. So I let players rotate themselves around the opponent, or the opponent around them, for normal movement. But if you want to move with them, that costs double, and they always remain in the same relative positions.

[Eric Diaz]

For clarity, I assume you mean move a grappled creature into a space adjacent to them that has Spike Growth or is over a cliff?
I mean, it's certainly possible to envision the in-game actions of moving a creature in front of you as a push. But I avoided using that word intentionally because it makes me think of the Shove action. :smallwink:

Yes, I'd allow both - move a grappled creature into a space adjacent to them that has Spike Growth, or throw them down a cliff. What I probably wouldn't allow is moving them back and forth into the "square" that has Spike Growth to damage them multiple times within the same round.

[hymer]

Do you allow players to move a creature ahead of them or beside them as they move?
Shove can move creatures ahead of the pusher. The moving beside is not accomplished in my interpretation by grappling (or shoving for that matter).


Or do players have to move into areas first, moving creatures they have grappled behind them? (How I interpret 'drag')
I agree with your interpretation.


Do players keep the creature in their 'space' as they move, then put them in any adjacent location once they are done moving? (How I interpret 'carry')
No - though I'd be willing to rule according to the situation if you're grappling something much smaller than yourself.

[Tanarii]

Personally, what I do is rule that you move them however you want, but they move relative to you if you move. Doesn't matter to me if you are pushing or pulling them. And as far as movement, I treat the double part as costing movement for each character separately. So I let players rotate themselves around the opponent, or the opponent around them, for normal movement. But if you want to move with them, that costs double, and they always remain in the same relative positions.Hey, I like that one!

If I'm reading it correctly, it effectively means you can push or drag adjacent as desired, you just need to spend extra movement to reposition (if needed) as you go, instead of freely repositioning the relative position. It hadn't even occurred to me that this would be an issue for those kinds of movement.

I mean, I allow free repositioning relative positions when a creature is being dragged. In fact, I *require* repositioning relative positions if needed. A creature being grapple-dragged always moves into the last 'space' the grappler just occupied.