Security in a world of scry and die. for the general public

[Dieuoffire]

Everyone is familiar with scry and die; like even NPCs. So is there a forum somewhere where people have discussed the average person or the average low level adventurer?

As an example of what i mean: does anyone know what an inn with lead lined rooms could charge? Premium for security. I am sure even a cheating noble would be interested; or even an honest merchant...

Has anyone made any custom spells that are lower level for anti-Scry etc.? again if mages private sanctum is 5th what about a spell that just grants a anti-scry bonus? (+10 sacred against scry, or 5% per level chance of scry failure)

living in a scry and die world would mean that any noble family would see the value in anti-scrying on the castle for long term family safety. it might cost a bit up front but your grandchildren might be kings one day because of it.

So anyone know where a similar discussion is? or it this about to be one.

Low level/Cheap enough for a property owner NPC would be appreciated. even imperfect,

Thanks

[Fizban]

You'd think there'd be a guide, but if there is then it must not be well-known. I've been working on a more general guide on significant spells, but for divinations specifically you've already got it: lead-lined walls and doors will block literally everything with the [scrying] descriptor, which is everything short of question-response spells (like Divination and Commune) and the 8th level Discern Location itself. As long as no-one is allowed to cast spells on site and either people are screened or no-one is allowed to touch people (to stop Chain of Eyes), lead-lining is enough. It costs 1,000gp to line the walls of a 20'x20'x10' amount of rooms (Stronghold Builder's Guidebook), but only 10gp per hidden space (Complete Scoundrel). And when you consider the price of a fancy building, lead lining is only a 50%-100% markup.

[Zanos]

The "average" NPC can't make the requisite Spellcraft or Knowledge(Arcana) check to know anything about any of this. Most wizards and clerics can't accomplish this in general because scrying requires passing familiarity at least with the target and a minimum level of 9th. I believe under the games average demographics in a city of 100,000 there's less than a dozen individuals that could even accomplish this, and most of them would be leaning on a guild to share spells because wizards work best that way, so some formal record of their existence will be kept.

Wealthy nobles and merchants will either have sufficient class levels themselves to understand some magical threats simply because of how the mechanics of level functions, or they will use their wealth to purchase the assistance of a magical advisor on retainer; the classic court wizard.

The spell I know that best fits your description is nondetection. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm)

[Avigor]

First question: how much political and economic power do the top level casters have, and how jealous are they? The reason I ask is that if both of those answers are high enough, they could corner the market on lead, force laws allowing state-sanctioned surveillance and outlawing lead lining into effect (to protect the populace from secretive criminals), and leave those lower level types naked.

Also, don't forget Nondetection; it might not be omnipotent, but it can help. There's also a 3rd level Cleric spell, Favorable Sacrifice, which can give Spell Resistance and other buffs for an hour per level, albeit that is more expensive.

Otherwise, there are some feats, at least Eyes to the Sky and Live My Nightmare, which I suspect would be more popular in such a world.

[unseenmage]

You'd think there'd be a guide, but if there is then it must not be well-known. I've been working on a more general guide on significant spells, but for divinations specifically you've already got it: lead-lined walls and doors will block literally everything with the [scrying] descriptor, which is everything short of question-response spells (like Divination and Commune) and the 8th level Discern Location itself. As long as no-one is allowed to cast spells on site and either people are screened or no-one is allowed to touch people (to stop Chain of Eyes), lead-lining is enough. It costs 1,000gp to line the walls of a 20'x20'x10' amount of rooms (Stronghold Builder's Guidebook), but only 10gp per hidden space (Complete Scoundrel). And when you consider the price of a fancy building, lead lining is only a 50%-100% markup.

Just wanted to add that lead lined pockets and clothes are a thing in one of tge 3.x boik2s as well. I want to say Complete Scoundrel but am not sure.

[Dieuoffire]

Thank you everyone. I just have some PCs that understand the value of privacy 😎.

After they understood and turned the techniques back in the next campaign I learned how good their memory is. 😂

So we discussed spells etc. For long term protection.
I think that if spell casting time was increased and the spell had other drawbacks (stationary etc.) Magical Scry protection could be low level and useful and a perminant items could be relatively cheap.

Any ideas about something like this?

As for most people not being able to make spellcraft check, spellcraft gives understanding. General knowledge about scrying may be much easier to come by. Anyone who lives near a spellcaster for higher knows people come to ask him for scrying every now and then. (I don't know how satalight cameras work or many other devises but I know about them and even haw to avoid certain security devices.)

[Elder_Basilisk]

I imagine that there would be a fair number of customary and built in design security measures.

For example, Feng shui design principles that require no straight lines from an outside door to interior rooms would block line of effect to interior rooms if applied to windows as well. Most divinations would not be effected but it would help against other things. A culture highly concerned about scrying might develop customs and rituals to prevent collection of hairs and blood. For example, everyone could shave their hair completely and burn the stubble and ritually pare their nails and burn the clippings daily. They could have rituals that prescribed that any bandages or tissues that collected blood or fluids we're unclean and had to be destroyed.

Taken further, they could have family gods and have a shrine in every house. Wealthy homes would be hallowed since the effect is permanent and truly wealthy might enact the hallow annually and tie nondetection or a similar spell to it.

Other customs that might offer limited protection would be a great devotion to privacy. They never invite strangers into their home. Period. They might design their homes with an exterior courtyard for entertaining. Shops would never have a direct connection to the residence- they might operate out of a small booth in front of a residence or workshop. That would at least force a successful scrying attempt before teleportation could occur.

[Segev]

Some question has been raised as to whether people would know to protect against this. The answer to that is dependent on two other questions:

1) How common are mages who can engage these tactics?
2) How high-profile have the successful uses of these tactics been?

If the mages who can do this are even common enough that every major kingdom has at least one, there will be enough major kingdoms whose sufficiently powerful/skilled mages will be employed by the Court, either directly/constantly or as close allies regularly consulted. Such kingdoms would have these defenses, and spies would discover it for others. "Why" would be investigated and eventually learned.

Even if such mages are remarkably rare, to the point where there are maybe five in the whole known world, if even one of them has engaged in high profile assassinations, those with knowledge of how it was done would be sought out. After 9/11, security at airports changed forever. After the Assassination of Emperor Evan the Evil, royal courts forever changed how they protected themselves from mysterious magics.


If, however, the sufficiently-rare mages restrain themselves to fighting each other, so it's only powerful dragons, liches, and reclusive wizards in their hidden towers who are being scryed and slain, then no, these measures would be uncommon.

[denthor]

Common people have no need to worry who wants to kill a fruit vendor other then maybe an evil priest of a death god.

I had the lead lined inn . Charged 5 gp per night. No takers unless they trashed the room. Charged 2 copper per night for a cot in a barracks style room housed 20 per long house. Very few takers.

[Fizban]

1) How common are mages who can engage these tactics?
. . .
If the mages who can do this are even common enough that every major kingdom has at least one, there will be enough major kingdoms whose sufficiently powerful/skilled mages will be employed by the Court, either directly/constantly or as close allies regularly consulted. Such kingdoms would have these defenses, and spies would discover it for others. "Why" would be investigated and eventually learned.
Going further, this question can be answered with the DMG city building guidelines: Every Large City has a minimum of three 10th level members of each core class, and every Metropolis has at least four of 13th. So unless the setting has nothing larger than a Small City or the DM removes them, indeed there ought to be a handful in every principality.

The default assumption is clearly (to my mind anyway) that there are no high-profile scry-n-die assaults, since the only books that make a big deal out of it are those that focus on strongholds or war, as a consideration rather than an absolutely required defense. With a faux-medieval setting it take a much higher-profile to reach "high-profile" without modern communication, most things capable of Scrying are described as recluses, and having Scrying they're aware of how being high-profile can lead to your death.

People with court mages will be advised on the appropriate measures they can take depending on how pro-active they are, but the cost of installing permanent magical defenses is high enough that only the richest can really justify them: warding just a few rooms with Wondrous Architecture costs as much as building an entire keep. Court mages capable of casting the appropriate spells will most likely be obliged to do so at their place of residence, but they have limited spell slots and can't be everywhere at once.

While commoners probably wouldn't have a clue, I'd expect even minor nobles to be somewhat aware and know enough to have a lead-lined room around, as would major guilds. But until you're important enough that important people want to communicate securely with you, it's just not gonna come up.

[Dieuoffire]

There are several good points that have been made. Thank you everyone.

I think that every decently sized city would reasonably have several rooms with Lead lining for rent because:

1 paranoia: I live in a place that has never had an earthquake but according to some scientists there should be an earthquake, so every building built in our area has earthquake protection standards. Paranoia is as real as a single incident that invokes it. Similar to 9/11 in america. I have never seen a terrorist (that I know of) in person, but the security features are now standard.

2 People will cash in where they can: One lead lined room in every Inn means that every now and then a innkeeper can charge triple to someone who thinks they are important enough to need it.

3 real threats: A business owner could lose a lot by someone hiring a Wizard and scrying on a meeting and even a rogue can activate an wand of scrying. For a few gold (21K) pieces a thieves guild could have 50 charges. that is a lot of opportunity. Everybody knows that even a 7th level character is a walking gold mine (13K+ gp value) for 420 gp that is a bargain mark.

4: Adventurers: for an adventurer, triple price room is a bargain to not have to waste a spell.

I am also certain that every fortress or castle would have significant defenses, even if it was not built with them originally. the thing is that magical items are permanent, looking out for a nation means long term planning and a kingdom that invests in one permanent anti-scrying item every five years would have a vast collection over time, and any nation that conquers them would not let them go to waste.

there are probably other reasons but I am out of time on this post. if anyone has any ideas for low level custom anti-scrying spells please let me know. Thanks!

[Segev]

there are probably other reasons but I am out of time on this post. if anyone has any ideas for low level custom anti-scrying spells please let me know. Thanks!

Perhaps the simplest anti-scrying magic item would be a modified detect magic item. Imagine an item which, instead of letting the wearer/user see auras, cause auras to become visible in its emanating cone. Sort of like CSI's luminol, but as a flashlight and for magic. Set up one in the corner of a room that is no more than 30 feet to the far corner, and when any magic is cast in there, the aura of the magic glows visibly to all who look.

Not only would this make invisibility only provide 50% miss chance (rather than actually help hide location or presence), and help identify people with spells on them, and even alert to whether an item is masterwork or magical, but it would cause the scrying sensor to appear as a blob of divination magic. When it shows up, stop talking about sensitive matters, or gear up for an assassination attempt. For the "sensitive matters" concern over the assassination attempt, a lead sphere on an adjustable-height stand could be positioned to overlap with the scrying sensor. Could be hollow, but doesn't have to be. Most scrying sensors are fixed in position once cast.

[Cosi]

Everyone is familiar with scry and die; like even NPCs. So is there a forum somewhere where people have discussed the average person or the average low level adventurer?

The average person doesn't need to worry about Scry and Die, nor do low level adventurers. Anyone with the capacity to execute a teleport ambush isn't going to need to do that to beat a low level character, they can just kill them.

[Segev]

The average person doesn't need to worry about Scry and Die, nor do low level adventurers. Anyone with the capacity to execute a teleport ambush isn't going to need to do that to beat a low level character, they can just kill them.

Not entirely true. Part of the purpose of a scry-n-die is to catch somebody whose location you don't know. Even a 1st level commoner can elude a 20th level adventurer by simply keeping a low profile and maybe changing his name and an amateur disguise check (take 10 for 10 and you'll probably fool people running just off of a description). Unless that 20th level adventurer using scrying to find them.

Now, this won't work if the 20th level character has proximity to start with. Tracking, spotting, etc. with his own skills. But if the 1st level commoner manages to high-tail it out of town before the 20th level adventurer starts looking for him...

[Fizban]

Perhaps the simplest anti-scrying magic item would be a modified detect magic item. Imagine an item which, instead of letting the wearer/user see auras, cause auras to become visible in its emanating cone.
Solid precedence in the Braizers of Aura Revealing in Stronghold Builder's Guide. I have a Detect Magic version on my whitelist of non-standard items (could actually be cheaper since it's a 0th level spell), but I hadn't thought to use it for anti-scrying. Doesn't stop Locate Object or Locate Creature, but those can track you outside a room anyway and it's usually the talking people are concerned about.

I also looked over some of my notes, 3rd party Complete Book of Eldritch Might has a 1st level spell that grants a nice bonus on scry saves, if you want a printed source.

[Cosi]

Not entirely true. Part of the purpose of a scry-n-die is to catch somebody whose location you don't know. Even a 1st level commoner can elude a 20th level adventurer by simply keeping a low profile and maybe changing his name and an amateur disguise check (take 10 for 10 and you'll probably fool people running just off of a description). Unless that 20th level adventurer using scrying to find them.

Now, this won't work if the 20th level character has proximity to start with. Tracking, spotting, etc. with his own skills. But if the 1st level commoner manages to high-tail it out of town before the 20th level adventurer starts looking for him...

That's not "scry and die". That's just "scry".

[Segev]

That's not "scry and die". That's just "scry".

Yes, but if you've the capacity for the teleport-assassination, you may as well do that rather than say, "Oh, found them, now to hire somebody else or walk all that distance myself."

Once you resort to scry to find them, "and-die" is only sensible not to use if you don't have the means to do it. Hence, if you've got foes capable of scry-n-die, they may well use it on you even if they could easily wipe you out with lesser means.

[Psyren]

Yes, but if you've the capacity for the teleport-assassination, you may as well do that rather than say, "Oh, found them, now to hire somebody else or walk all that distance myself."

Once you resort to scry to find them, "and-die" is only sensible not to use if you don't have the means to do it. Hence, if you've got foes capable of scry-n-die, they may well use it on you even if they could easily wipe you out with lesser means.

Scrying can be fooled, and teleportation can be easily blocked. Anyone with the kind of power where these tactics might be warranted should be protecting themselves against both.

[Segev]

Scrying can be fooled, and teleportation can be easily blocked. Anyone with the kind of power where these tactics might be warranted should be protecting themselves against both.

The context of this sub-exchange was that there are reasons why a powerful character might use scry-n-die on even targets they wouldn't need such tactics to be able to overwhelm. But honestly, I feel like I'm chasing it in circles and I don't even have a dog in the race, so I'll let it drop.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I would expect that the anticipate teleportation line of spells would put a significant crimp in any scrying and fry plans that targeted someone who might have it active.

[martixy]

Might not be wide-spread as in every tavern and the like, but IMO, any self-respecting castle or security conscious outfit will have lead-lined walls.

Psyren said teleportation can be easily blocked, but it's not about ease, it's about scale. And I'm not aware of/can't recall any scalable(time and space-wise) teleport protections. Maybe solid positive energy for persistence? But that's kinda esoteric.

[Avigor]

Perhaps the simplest anti-scrying magic item would be a modified detect magic item. Imagine an item which, instead of letting the wearer/user see auras, cause auras to become visible in its emanating cone. Sort of like CSI's luminol, but as a flashlight and for magic. Set up one in the corner of a room that is no more than 30 feet to the far corner, and when any magic is cast in there, the aura of the magic glows visibly to all who look.

Not only would this make invisibility only provide 50% miss chance (rather than actually help hide location or presence), and help identify people with spells on them, and even alert to whether an item is masterwork or magical, but it would cause the scrying sensor to appear as a blob of divination magic. When it shows up, stop talking about sensitive matters, or gear up for an assassination attempt.

Pure awesome. Now I want a "make magic glow" flashlight for every character.


For the "sensitive matters" concern over the assassination attempt, a lead sphere on an adjustable-height stand could be positioned to overlap with the scrying sensor. Could be hollow, but doesn't have to be. Most scrying sensors are fixed in position once cast.

Assuming the mages haven't initiated the drastic change of making lead unavailable, this is a very good idea, definitely easier on the resources then Dispel Magic.

[Fizban]

Psyren said teleportation can be easily blocked, but it's not about ease, it's about scale. And I'm not aware of/can't recall any scalable(time and space-wise) teleport protections. Maybe solid positive energy for persistence? But that's kinda esoteric.
I'm curious as to what you mean by scale: do you mean scale as in protecting miles of terrain, or scale as in non-casters being able to do it everywhere?

I believe there are a couple 1st party magic items (or possibly minor artifacts?) that block teleportation with a scale in miles, but I don't have a list. As for non-casting, the DM can always invoke this clause: "Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.", which applies to Teleport and any spell that references it specifically. Common mundane suggestions include building on a volcano, but that's just an extreme example of something it's hard to deny counts as "strong." The DM could rule that Strong Wind (20-30mph) is enough to do it, or that flowing water (tons of mass just rolling along constantly is a lot of force) blocks nearby teleportation- so rivers and canals could provide an area of defense by digging a ditch. Rig up a slave wheel to turn massive clockworks that do literally nothing but spread a bunch of physical energy around to create an anti-teleport field.

[Dieuoffire]

Everyone keeps mentioning "by that level" if you have a 9th level Villain who has decided that your adventuring party needs top die you could be as low a level as 5th and still be ready for the encounter. by the books an EL 4 higher is still good for a final boss. so 5th level may need this kind of protection.

Also Scrying as a scroll or wand being used by a thieves guild or just being cast by a wizard can allow the party to be targeted by an assassination attempt. so even 3rd level characters may find themselves facing "scry-and-(send a group of assassins) "

the point is that Scrying becomes real and dangerous for a third level PC. if I was a 7th level wizard I would know that Four adventurers who had a wizard or sorcerer or cleric or druid casting third spells was bad news for me. if I happen to be hatching an evil plan in a small village and 4 adventurers showed up you can bet scry would be on my list the next day.

Now that 3rd level might be needing scry protection... how many places might consider lead lined rooms? how many rich merchants might consider it just to protect themselves from the thieves guild?

Remember 3rd level is not that high. you know even the villains might want to be outside of scry when plotting as assasination. and dont say that the country makes a law against anti-scry because what about good people trying to stop being killed? you may as well outlaw private rooms. Outlawing protection means that even the local lord cannot send out his minions without them being scryed upon. Or drawing a huge arrow to them every time they do need scry protection.

if I am a evil assassin sent with a group of rogues to kill the local wizard lord who is 7th level I want scry proof rooms.
If I am a good cleric hunting a evil wizard I want scry proof rooms.
If I am after the thieves guild I want scry proof rooms because they may have a magic item.
if I am just straight paranoid! I want a scry proof room.

My Idea is that there are things worth protecting, knowledge, plans, my Loot that I just hauled into town where a thieves guild could be... I want protection! the thieves guild might look at me as LOOT!

the other idea of this just isn't used that much I must I disagree with. One of the thinks that may studies have shown is that criminals tend to think with more short term than long. they often forget that something they do will have repercussions many years later. (I can get xyz NOW if I steal it! Now being relative) most criminals do not think that If they set an example of taking out the guy ahead of them means they will be taken out. So buying a scry Item, getting an anklet of translocation to jump through into the room silently and making a whole lot of money right now is easily attainable by 4th level.

4 4th level adventurers, just hauling back a huge load, looking like they have barely enough HP to stand up, wizard looking drained of spells, take up a room. I am a 4th level rogue with an anklet of translocation some luck feats, or a wizard1/rogue3, and a wand that has five charges of scry. I am about to be very rich as soon as those guys are asleep. scry the room till they sleep, climb the wall in the dark teleport; kill the Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, Fighter, Order may vary, results are the same. I am rich, teleport out the window, even with a 30 ft fall I am going to make it.

Please tell me I am not the only one to see this. You can seal a room by covering the crack under the door drawing the curtains etc. but if they scry at teleport from the room next door you are dead. Also if a wiz1/rog3 can see you and you are within range sleep spell does not need line of sight and if he knows it is you fighter/barbarian/ low will save PC scry followed by sleep spell, will end your night just about as well.

Sorry for being so long but if you are 3rd level you might want to pay the extra bit and sleep in anti-scry rooms. wich means there might be alot of demand for this service, and luckily enough every tavern owner knows that if you ask for the service even 3rd level PCs/NPCs can afford a bit more.

My next thieves guild may operate on the principle of wand scry/Sleep spell/anklet/make lots of money. all they need is to offer protection to wizards in exchange for wands of scry. one wand per year at half price and everyone wins. well...:smallamused:

[Fizban]

Everyone keeps mentioning "by that level". . .
Uh, people have pointed out how a simply changing mundane disguises messes up the chance of anyone identifying you. You can't just scry "some guy" you need to actually meet the criteria of the spell. Unless they have a body part, former possesion, or have seen you in person, they can't even target the spell.

Also Scrying as a scroll or wand being used by a thieves guild or just being cast by a wizard can allow the party to be targeted by an assassination attempt. so even 3rd level characters may find themselves facing "scry-and-(send a group of assassins) "
Scrying gives a will save, the DC for a scroll or wand is 15. Unless the person using the wand has personally met the target or has something of theirs, they get at least a +5 on the saving throw. Once a target saves against your scrying, you can't target them again for 24 hours.

... how many places might consider lead lined rooms? . . . you know even the villains might want to be outside of scry when plotting as assasination.
Plenty of people have agreed it would be easily available, just not in every single building.

and dont say that the country makes a law against anti-scry because what about good people trying to stop being killed? you may as well outlaw private rooms. Outlawing protection means that even the local lord cannot send out his minions without them being scryed upon. Or drawing a huge arrow to them every time they do need scry protection.
When you're a magical dictator with the DM's backing, you get to do what you want. Rather the whole point of being a dictator is ignoring the common good, though I don't see how the "local lord's minions" have to fear scry-boogeymen.

My Idea is that there are things worth protecting, knowledge, plans, my Loot that I just hauled into town where a thieves guild could be... I want protection! the thieves guild might look at me as LOOT!
So be properly paranoid then? Again, no one is saying that being paranoid doesn't protect you from magic. Putting in the effort to hide yourself is the first and most important line of defense. Brute force magical countermeasures are for people who want the luxury of increased security in spite of being well known.

getting an anklet of translocation to jump through into the room silently and making a whole lot of money right now is easily attainable by 4th level.
There's very little difference between "I teleport through the convenient window that gives me line of sight" and "I pick the lock on the door."

That's beside the point though. "Make a whole lot of money" is entirely dependent on who you're ripping off. NPCs don't have piles of magic items and jewels laying around, and if they do they're the kind of NPC that can afford the defenses you seem to think are neccesary. So how does this make sense?

and a wand that has five charges of scry. I am about to be very rich as soon as those guys are asleep. scry the room till they sleep, climb the wall in the dark teleport; kill the Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, Fighter, Order may vary, results are the same. I am rich, teleport out the window, even with a 30 ft fall I am going to make it. . .but if they scry at teleport from the room next door you are dead. Also if a wiz1/rog3 can see you and you are within range sleep spell does not need line of sight and if he knows it is you fighter/barbarian/ low will save PC scry followed by sleep spell, will end your night just about as well.
First of all, none of this has anything to do with scrying or teleportation. A gang of equally or over-leveled NPCs stalking the party and ganking them in the night is doable from level 1 without any magic at all. Second, see above regarding scrying DC, also note that it has a 1 hour casting time. The spells you actually want for peeking into the room next door are Clairvoyance or Spymaster's Coin- but you could just open the door instead and assault the room you apparently already know contains your quarry.

My next thieves guild may operate on the principle of wand scry/Sleep spell/anklet/make lots of money. all they need is to offer protection to wizards in exchange for wands of scry. one wand per year at half price and everyone wins. well...:smallamused:
So you want people to be more security conscious, but let thieves run rampant with magic items way outside their price range because no one actually has any security?

[Psyren]

Psyren said teleportation can be easily blocked, but it's not about ease, it's about scale. And I'm not aware of/can't recall any scalable(time and space-wise) teleport protections. Maybe solid positive energy for persistence? But that's kinda esoteric.

"Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."

Protecting large areas is as easy as situating them near (or inside!) similarly large and energetic natural features: waterfalls, volcanoes, fault lines, geysers, whirlpools. You can also use artificial ones like vast machines. And that's before we get to magical areas like planar breaches.

[thorr-kan]

"Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."

Protecting large areas is as easy as situating them near (or inside!) similarly large and energetic natural features: waterfalls, volcanoes, fault lines, geysers, whirlpools. You can also use artificial ones like vast machines. And that's before we get to magical areas like planar breaches.
And now we have a reason for Bond Villain Fortresses (TM pending).

[Cosi]

"Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."

You'll note the absolutely no rules for how this nominally works. It's basically "the DM will sometimes tell you that you can't do things because reasons". This is terrible, and you should never do it.

[Psyren]

And now we have a reason for Bond Villain Fortresses (TM pending).

Precisely - that's the entire point behind that line. And it can be as large as the feature causing it.

[Segev]

Okay, I love the notion that a large, energetic machine doing nothing but pointlessly turning gears - you know, like you might find in Gnomeville or Dwarfland, depending on the aesthetic - actually serves a strategic purpose in preventing teleportation.

[unseenmage]

Okay, I love the notion that a large, energetic machine doing nothing but pointlessly turning gears - you know, like you might find in Gnomeville or Dwarfland, depending on the aesthetic - actually serves a strategic purpose in preventing teleportation.

Admittedly I too am a sucker for that notion.

[Togo]

You can't be scryed if you're moving too fast. Even a fast canter on a horse, or a very fast moving boat, foils scrying, since the sensor can only move 150 feet. So two people riding hard, 15 feet apart shouting a confidential conversation between them, are fairly safe. No one can easily keep up with them to hear the whole conversation, and a scry spell would only pick up the person the scryer already knew without revealing the other half of the conversation or who it was with. For additional safety, going through ornamental gardens, with the occasional lead wire net strung up amongst the foliage, will thoroughly frustrate invisible spectral and ethereal eavesdroppers as well.

Talking in an obscure language is surprisingly effective, since comprehend languages has touch range, and not everyone has tongues. Teleport and long-distance summoning can be foiled by thin silk strips or bead curtains - something that doesn't impede movement or sight, but does make a space count as occupied, and foils line of effect. While making your lead lined rooms/carriages, it's also worth mentioning that lead mesh is fine - magic can only 'fit' down surprisingly wide holes. Finally don't discount the effects of guards. The magical sensor produced by a scry spell is invisible, which doesn't make it impossible to spot, merely very hard. As long as you keep walking, forcing the scrying sensor to keep moving, then one of your 20 guards will, on average, simply see the sensor whenever it moves. If all else fails, go to a major temple or wizard's college to have your conversations, and let the scryer enjoy the consequences of annoying them.

A wizard putting some effort into his approach can circumvent these precautions, of course, but it may take days to counter them all, and that means he's not going to bother unless he's already sure you're the target. At which point hiring a halfling assassin is actually easier, less hassle, and more reliable, and unless you're a druid, cheaper.

[Fizban]

Re: speed of horse and boat. A light horse at light load only hustles at 120', you'd need a full run to outrun the sensor from Scrying, which means either a very short conversation before the horse tires out or magically boosting its speed. Boats move at wind*speed, where the wind level 0-3 and speed is 5'-40': the fastest boat under maximum wind is also only 120' per round.

As much as I want to recommend the go fast plan, they simply put that sensor speed high enough to keep up with almost anything short of a dragon in flight or teleportation. Teleporting is also a good response. Detect scrying sensor, immediately teleport somewhere else. Unless they have Greater Scrying, you now have at least 10 minutes before they can scan you again (assuming they were using Clairaudience and also know where you went), or more likely an hour-and since Scrying allows a save you know if it's being used. If they have Greater Scrying, you just need to keep teleporting and plane shifting until they run out, with Teleport and (cleric) Plane Shift being lower level than Greater Scrying so you'll have more ammo than them. Obviously not the level 1 solution, but still important.

Rre: occupying spaces: unless a bead curtain or silk streamer blocks movement, I doubt it would block teleportation. Large columns with just enough room to squeeze might though, which leads towards another obvious once you notice it defense: be smaller than your opponent. Dimension Door has the line about appearing in a space occupied by a solid body and shunting, but Teleport does not- it might fail, shunt you, or deposit you in any space big enough to make an escape artist check, depending on the DM.

While I'm looking up Teleport, I notice another bit: '“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you.' Quickly altering the environment via magic in response to a scrying sensor should be able to trigger that, if you do it right after the sensor vanishes. Altering the environment every day even through mundane means such as shifting large furniture, doors, wall panels, or whatever, should keep an area relatively safe from Teleport specifically. That's another way the nonsense machine can be said to work.

[Dieuoffire]

Uh, people have pointed out how a simply changing mundane disguises messes up the chance of anyone identifying you. You can't just scry "some guy" you need to actually meet the criteria of the spell. Unless they have a body part, former possesion, or have seen you in person, they can't even target the spell.

Scrying gives a will save, the DC for a scroll or wand is 15. Unless the person using the wand has personally met the target or has something of theirs, they get at least a +5 on the saving throw. Once a target saves against your scrying, you can't target them again for 24 hours.

Plenty of people have agreed it would be easily available, just not in every single building.

When you're a magical dictator with the DM's backing, you get to do what you want. Rather the whole point of being a dictator is ignoring the common good, though I don't see how the "local lord's minions" have to fear scry-boogeymen.

So be properly paranoid then? Again, no one is saying that being paranoid doesn't protect you from magic. Putting in the effort to hide yourself is the first and most important line of defense. Brute force magical countermeasures are for people who want the luxury of increased security in spite of being well known.

There's very little difference between "I teleport through the convenient window that gives me line of sight" and "I pick the lock on the door."

That's beside the point though. "Make a whole lot of money" is entirely dependent on who you're ripping off. NPCs don't have piles of magic items and jewels laying around, and if they do they're the kind of NPC that can afford the defenses you seem to think are neccesary. So how does this make sense?

First of all, none of this has anything to do with scrying or teleportation. A gang of equally or over-leveled NPCs stalking the party and ganking them in the night is doable from level 1 without any magic at all. Second, see above regarding scrying DC, also note that it has a 1 hour casting time. The spells you actually want for peeking into the room next door are Clairvoyance or Spymaster's Coin- but you could just open the door instead and assault the room you apparently already know contains your quarry.

So you want people to be more security conscious, but let thieves run rampant with magic items way outside their price range because no one actually has any security?

1. Local Thief with wand of scry holding 5 charges. Easily meets you coming into or going out of town, perhapse disguised as a server; no +5. Fighter or Rogue will saves are very low. getting a former possession is as easy as selling them a drink (coins work fine, -4 will save). Or a bad guy who got away with blood on his blade (-10 will save)
2. the point is that I think in a scry enabled world it would be very common.
3. Evil dictators who ignore too much of the common good (or sense) find themselves overthrown or ruling a country that cannot defend itself. their evil minions have every good aligned adventurer they want to be protected from
4. brute force counters being common are exactly what I am saying would be surprisingly common.
5. the difference between picking and teleporting is that picking is defeated by a bell on the door (noise no surprise) or a barrior (such as a piece of furniture) that has no exterior way to undo it silently. (yes I know several group who do something like this) this works very well at low levels.. unless they scry and teleport.
6. a merchant who has a secret source of exotic goods is just as easily victimized as one who is holding a jewel in his hand. Make a whole lot of money does not need to be in trade goods etc. Information is power and money. even a NPC spellbook of a level 3 wizard is valuable.

Furthermore I am not talking about an overly leveled group. I am talking about a level 3-4 NPC who could take out a entire party of same or higher leveled PCs because of scry access through a wand with only a few charges is within their grasp; combined with any type of teleport (anklet). This allows a lower level NPC to kill a whole party. as adventurers are rich (comparatively) and Inns are supposed to be more safe than staying in the wilderness I think this is flawed. Also knowing someone is in the room is different than knowing they are asleep and where they are sleeping. Very different. Without scrying (or Clairvoyance) a low level group in a inn room can make a reasonably safe assumption of safety with a little effort. With scrying and teleportation involved safety goes to 0%. i suppose summoning into the room is also possible with Clairvoyance and being next door.

My argument remains that there are enough merchants, Nobles, Adventurers etc. who have much to lose (information or valuables) that anti-scry would be VERY common. as in possible to assume you may always get a upgraded room with anti-scry. Furthermore with such a large demand it becomes less commented that someone is in the anti-scry rooms.

Lastly, i think making Scry and die less threatening could do nothing but benefit most fantasy worlds.

[Fizban]

5. the difference between picking and teleporting is that picking is defeated by a bell on the door (noise no surprise)
Have you considered the fact that in order to use a command word item you have to speak a command word?

Information is power and money.
Information is worth 0gp unless the DM has given it a price, in which case it's plot.

even a NPC spellbook of a level 3 wizard is valuable.
Do you even realize how few level 3 wizards there are, vs the costs you are paying to magically steal their stuff? 32 pages, 1,600gp. A charge of scrying (not that you can buy them singly at all) is 420gp. Wizards do in fact have high will saves, so that's a 45% failure rate. You're at best getting a 2:1 return, on the only class that actually has a pile of cash as a class feature. 1st level wizards have about 1,000gp, and are low enough level they can't cast any alarms or traps of note. A Metropolis has an average of 48 1st level wizards, so 48,000gp in "guaranteed easy" loot. A Wand of Scrying costs 21,000gp. Assuming you don't draw attention from the higher level wizards that will crush you to make an example, you can potentially make 27,000gp, by scry 'n looting every 1st level wizard in the city.

Or you could make 48,000gp by ganking them with the skills your thieves already have.

because of scry access through a wand with only a few charges is within their grasp
Oh hey look it's partially charged wands again.

Without scrying (or Clairvoyance) a low level group in a inn room can make a reasonably safe assumption of safety with a little effort. With scrying and teleportation involved safety goes to 0%.
Go ahead and explain it to me then. 'Cause there's no difference between a paranoid group that's barricaded the door and has someone on watch responding to someone picking the lock, kicking in the door, or speaking a command word and appearing out of thin air. All three cases result in rolling initiative. And where are you getting line of sight and line of effect to activate the anklets?

i suppose summoning into the room is also possible with Clairvoyance and being next door.
Also requires line of sight and line of effect.

My argument remains
You conclusion remains that, based on your belief that partially charged wands of scrying+anklets of translocation is so significantly better against low-level targets than basic skill use.

Lastly, i think making Scry and die less threatening could do nothing but benefit most fantasy worlds.
Scry and die is already drastically less effective than many people think it is. You get no surprise round or readied actions, everyone rolls initiative at the same time. You completely forfeit any chance to disable alarms, so anyone smart enough to sleep with an alarm (as cheap as 70gp for a Magic Mouth) will be rolling initiative, and that's assuming they don't better traps waiting. So maybe you win initiative and get to hit them while they're flat-footed, or maybe you teleport onto a directional land mine.

Underleveled characters can always kill higher level threats in their sleep. That's the whole point of attacking when they're asleep. Would some inns have lead-lined rooms? Sure, if they can afford it, and fancy inns can afford it. Of course you need about 400 people in the town for every inn it has, only so many of which are going to be of fancy quality. But I don't see anything that supports the idea of thieve's guilds going all-in on trying to scry n' die other than the DM wanting it to happen. A thieve's guild, with the right connections, might employ magically assisted heists, against high value targets. They would do so on an individual basis, using either scrolls or more likely by hiring the casters who clued them into the idea. This will not cause a sudden rise in anti-scrying except amongst people who could already afford it but didn't know or bother.

[Togo]

Re: speed of horse and boat. A light horse at light load only hustles at 120', you'd need a full run to outrun the sensor from Scrying, which means either a very short conversation before the horse tires out or magically boosting its speed. Boats move at wind*speed, where the wind level 0-3 and speed is 5'-40': the fastest boat under maximum wind is also only 120' per round.

You don't need to keep up the speed. Just run for one round, any scrying sensors pop, and the spell has to be recast.

And boats are way faster if you use the rules in Stormwrack. Admittedly, you do need a very fast boat, low level magical help, or magical sails.


Re: occupying spaces: unless a bead curtain or silk streamer blocks movement, I doubt it would block teleportation.

I disagree, but yeah, games will vary on this point.


While I'm looking up Teleport, I notice another bit: '“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you.' Quickly altering the environment via magic in response to a scrying sensor should be able to trigger that, if you do it right after the sensor vanishes. Altering the environment every day even through mundane means such as shifting large furniture, doors, wall panels, or whatever, should keep an area relatively safe from Teleport specifically. That's another way the nonsense machine can be said to work.

That's a nice one! I wonder what effect meeting in the set storage room of a major theatre would be like, given that it would change beyond recognition every month or two.

I missed out my favourite one - just walk through large crowds when having a private talk. The chances of a mundane spy keeping pace with you are minimal, and a scrying sensor will be spotted on average once a round.

The weirdest protection I ever heard of was to sleep in a hammock slung from two large trees, twenty five feet apart, and some 15 feet above the ground. If they scry on you, there's no clue as to your location. Similarly, sleeping in a room with a weakened floor that couldn't support the weight of an additional person, technically stops someone teleporting into the room. I'm not sure I'd trust either of these in practice, but they're funny...

[Fizban]

You don't need to keep up the speed. Just run for one round, any scrying sensors pop, and the spell has to be recast.
Got a source on that? "If the subject moves, the sensor follows at a speed of up to 150 feet." It doesn't say the sensor stops moving or pops out, and scrying has unlimited range on the same plane.

There's another magic counter: even if you can't teleport somehwere far, just blinking over to the ethereal or teleporting with your cheap item/spell of choice should exit the spell's range and zap the sensor. Assuming as usual that you noticed it and know who it's on.

Come to think of it, is there a line anywhere that says the subject is not aware of the scrying save? 'Cause there's also that whole problem with not being able to stealth mind-control people when they know they just had to roll a save, except with scrying you can't actually stop them from reacting even if they fail their save. I feel like this is too obvious not to be a major point by now, but well. . .

And boats are way faster if you use the rules in Stormwrack. Admittedly, you do need a very fast boat, low level magical help, or magical sails.
That was the speeds from Stormwrack: Elf Wingship, 40' speed, x3 wind modifier, 120' per round. I can't remember exactly where it says, but Stormwrack changed the vehicle rules from double moving every round (as in AaEG) to just moving their speed every round. You can see it easily on the overland table though: at x1 wind, a Caravel moves 3mph. A person walks at 3mph. Both have a listed speed of 30'. Of course Eberron was written with the AaEG rules in mind, so they say it's a double move, and basically you have to check the ship rules for each source individually (and some of the Stormwrack boats have the exact same stats as their AaEG versions, so they got nerfed- but they're still within "realistic" ranges). Anyway, magic sails don't really boost the speed, they just give free wind- you need a Soarwood boat from Eberron to increase the speed, and that starts getting reeeeal expensive.

The weirdest protection I ever heard of was to sleep in a hammock slung from two large trees, twenty five feet apart, and some 15 feet above the ground.
Ah, but you see, we can tell from the brightness of the moonlight that they are clearly facing this direction, which means the wind is blowing from that direction, and that falling leaf only grows there, which means I know exactly where they are!