Thought Experiment: Straight 3s

[gloryblaze]

Every once in a while I see a discussion on what you'd do if you ever rolled an array of straight 18s in your stats (stuff like Pally 6/Monk 14 to get +16 to all your saves). However, what about the inverse? If you rolled all 3s across the board (and didn't reroll immediately or design a character meant to die spectacularly), how would you go about optimizing to stay alive as long as possible and be at least minimally effective?

I think I'd go for a human fighter (bringing all my 3s to 4s, going from -4 in all stats to -3). 7 HP isn't THAT bad at level 1 (it's like a wizard with a 12 in con). I'd also get heavy armor, for decent AC despite low Dex (movement penalty sucks but oh well), and archery Fighting style (proficiency +2, archery +2, dex -3 = +1 to hit! Nice!) to allow me to stay far from melee. Probably use heavy crossbow rather than longbow, so that I deal at least 1 point of damage 70% of the time instead of only 62.5% of the time.

[Waterdeep Merch]

My instinct is to go with a lightfoot halfling rogue and focus on stealth above all else, utilizing other party members to stay as far away from the enemy as possible. +1 to stealth is at least a bonus, sneak attack can help you do damage that isn't terrible, and if you can survive to level 2, cunning action will see a lot of mileage.

[No brains]

A support-focused druid would be a nice pick. Wild shape can change your stats to ones that don't suck and barkskin can give you a good floor for your AC. You could pick skills and spells that keep you far out of the action and wild shape into a hiding rat during a fight.

[Potato_Priest]

Well, the obvious choice is to play an orc, so that you can have that legendary 1 intelligence.

Not sure what class I'd play.

Edit: Alternatively you could be a kobold to take advantage of your mighty 15 lb (4lb under encumbrance variant rules) carrying capacity for lols.

[Kane0]

I’d likely be a dwarf cleric blessbot. My primary combat action doesnt rely on my spell attack or DC and i get a little bit of extra con for HP and concentration. Life cleric also gives bonus healing that also doesnt care about my terrible stats.

[Maxilian]

I could go with:

A) A druid (moon druid) as my stats change with my form.

B) A Tortle Cleric, heals do not care about stats and i get enough buff spells, and Tortle give me a good AC regardless of my stats.

[Saiga]

Every once in a while I see a discussion on what you'd do if you ever rolled an array of straight 18s in your stats (stuff like Pally 6/Monk 14 to get +16 to all your saves). However, what about the inverse? If you rolled all 3s across the board (and didn't reroll immediately or design a character meant to die spectacularly), how would you go about optimizing to stay alive as long as possible and be at least minimally effective?

I think I'd go for a human fighter (bringing all my 3s to 4s, going from -4 in all stats to -3). 7 HP isn't THAT bad at level 1 (it's like a wizard with a 12 in con). I'd also get heavy armor, for decent AC despite low Dex (movement penalty sucks but oh well), and archery Fighting style (proficiency +2, archery +2, dex -3 = +1 to hit! Nice!) to allow me to stay far from melee. Probably use heavy crossbow rather than longbow, so that I deal at least 1 point of damage 70% of the time instead of only 62.5% of the time.

I think this is a good idea. Fighters also get ASIs pretty quickly, if you make it to level 6 you've got one up on every other class. Then you've got your Dex up to 8! Uh... maybe this is beyond ASIs helping.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I think Fighter first level is best option. From their id probably go rogue. Other options include as mentioned Moon Druid. Fighter 8 rogue 12 is pretty solid, as human or variant human, giving you all the ASIs you could want. I think Heavy armor skimrish Archer is best bet. Alternatively you could drop an ASI and fighter levels to pick up Paladin for smiting if you want to melee.... OR Hexblade so get your proficiency to damage to at least one guy, and pick up Eldritch smite that you can use on a ranged weapons. Maybe drop the rogue levels.....to 10 and the fighter to 6. Then 4.. What would be the best subclasses for this? if focusing ranged hrmmmm Improved invocation gets you +1 weapon...

Arcane Archer 4/Hexblade 8/ Scout 8? move away before they can get you, AA gets another +1 on the arrow, All fighter goodies and rogue goodies. Very limited spell slots for smites though.

Eldritch Knight 4/ Hexblade 8/ Arcane Trickster 8? Many more smites than above not sure if its better you get a familiar and some more spells and cantrips and such.

Both can work melee and ranged (probably decent as thrown + smite for damage prone, move up and hit in melee for advantage via prone so sneak attack. More SAD than a bow so AA option is more limited.)

[Easy_Lee]

Mountain Dwarf Wizard, Heavy armor at 4, support spells, and a boatload of contingencies. Wizard has the widest variety of spells that simply work.

Or go with the obvious answer: moon druid casting conjure animals.

[Naanomi]

Tortle Moon Druid, try to survive with AC through low levels... and once you can wildshape never don't be an animal

[Moosoculars]

Don't forget you will not be walking far in the heavy armour for al those fighters. 3 or 4 strength isn't going to help much.

[Tanarii]

Cleric, Druid, wizard and pally get prepared spells equal to level plus (or in this case, minus) casting stat. That means 1 prepared spell until level 6, or level 12 for a pally.

Of course, clerics, land Druids and Pally also get bonus prepared spells from domain/terrain/oath, so that will help mitigate the problem.

I'd probably do a Moon Druid too. Just because you're able to be an effective offensive combatant from level 2. And can channel those spell slots into healing yourself when wildshaped.

An interesting (but probably very not effective) character would be a Rogue, once they got reliable talent. Pass DC 10 checks reliably at level 11 in proficient skills! DC 14 in your expertise skills. Obviously you'll need to be a variant human with Skilled feat for the four extra proficiencies. :smallamused:

Or maybe a Bard for Jack of All Trades, get that juicy +1 to all skill checks? Downside is your Bardic Inspiration is basically non-existent. But at least you use known spells, not prepared!

[MadBear]

At that point for me it'd be really fun to just play a straight up MAD class like a monk. I'd play him like Hercule from DBZ or Dan from street fighter. I'd be 100% all talk and no walk.

Assuming I survive to higher level, my progress would always be constantly stymied by just how very bad I was at everything.

- My stunning fist would never work, but it'd always be the rogues fault for getting in the way (DC 7)

- My flurry of misses would of course be that darn wizards fault for that distracting light show he kept firing at my foe.

- Getting hit would of course be the fighters fault, for not properly covering me.

- Those dang slippery rocks would be the reason I never made a single saving throw

Then at the end of every defeated foe, I would brag about how superior my skill was, and how necessary I was to the battle. Of course when the HP got low, I'd use the monks impressive speed to retreat (did I say retreat, I mean tactically regroup).

[Kane0]

Magic missile spam!

[Maxilian]

Magic missile spam!

That's the whole concept of an Orc Wizard i have :P

[lebefrei]

Last time I replied to a thread like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478987-If-you-rolled-all-3s) I said:

I would play a babbling idiot Warlock that is destined (if survived) to be the avatar of its patron, an invading Great Old One. It would take pact of the chain and have a sprite that is actually in charge (as a 3 int creature probably cannot plan). Thankfully I have awakened mind to use as a communication tool, so I can at least get across my basic needs to others for survival.

By level 14 I'd finally be able to use create thrall to force a creature to carry me around and protect me. Until then my sprite would have to be charming enough to convince others that I am an ally and keep me around.

Then, at level 20 and with DM cooperation (I mean come on I dedicated years to this pathetic PC), suddenly my character would begin screaming in insane, agonizing yet somehow satisfied pain. Its skin would rip and burst and out would rise a towering, horrible Great Old One who has been channeling its power through this wretch as its only way into the Material Plane. Ideally none of the other players would know about this, and they have a sudden serious enemy to contend with. They also would now know they'd been complicit in its arrival.

Seems like something I'd still do, so sure. That's my answer again.

[Malifice]

Moon druid.

Done.

[Willie the Duck]

Don't forget you will not be walking far in the heavy armour for al those fighters. 3 or 4 strength isn't going to help much.

Str 3 limits you to ring mail (40 of your 45 lb cap). If you are a human (str4), that gets you to chain mail (or more likely ring mail and a shield). A no-str-bonus race who puts their first ASI into STR gets up to str 5 (75 lbs), which is enough for plate mail and a shield. You weren't going to get by without a mount (or pack mule at least) anyways, so speed isn't a big deal (but if it is, go dwarf). A hill dwarf bless-based cleric would be okay. First ASI into Str to get better armor, and then rest into Con or Wisdom or concentration enhancers. Mountain dwarf would work as well, getting the 5 str at level 1. Otherwise it is tempting to pick up regular human for the -3s instead of -4s for everything.

[Naanomi]

Don't forget you will not be walking far in the heavy armour for al those fighters. 3 or 4 strength isn't going to help much.
Luckily Tortle shells weigh nothing

[smcmike]

Moon Druid is obvious. For race, the obvious choice might be Hill Dwarf, which gives you as many HP as possible in your default form, and a bonus to wisdom. Wisdom doesn’t do much good, though, and your hitpoints are still terrible, so a better choice is Half-Orc, for Relentless Endurance and another chance at survival.

[Citan]

Every once in a while I see a discussion on what you'd do if you ever rolled an array of straight 18s in your stats (stuff like Pally 6/Monk 14 to get +16 to all your saves). However, what about the inverse? If you rolled all 3s across the board (and didn't reroll immediately or design a character meant to die spectacularly), how would you go about optimizing to stay alive as long as possible and be at least minimally effective?

I think I'd go for a human fighter (bringing all my 3s to 4s, going from -4 in all stats to -3). 7 HP isn't THAT bad at level 1 (it's like a wizard with a 12 in con). I'd also get heavy armor, for decent AC despite low Dex (movement penalty sucks but oh well), and archery Fighting style (proficiency +2, archery +2, dex -3 = +1 to hit! Nice!) to allow me to stay far from melee. Probably use heavy crossbow rather than longbow, so that I deal at least 1 point of damage 70% of the time instead of only 62.5% of the time.
With only official content,
I'd go either Human like you, or Hill Dwarf. Probably Hill Dwarf to wear heavy armor without speed loss (although, would I have at least the required strenght for that?) and +1 HP.
Then I'd definitely make a Sorcadin, with Ancients Paladin and Draconic Sorcerer and Extend Metamagic.

Reasons for that?
1. Aura of Protection gives a minimum of +1, so it's a net win.
2. Extended upcast Aid can quickly compensate for lack of HP.
3....
...
Scratch that, I'm stupid, obviously you cannot multiclass with such stats. XD

So then straight Human Ancients Paladin it is, still using Aid and Heroism/Shield of Faith/Bless to help me survive, along with immunity to disease, Paladin-leveled healing pool, and Ancients's resistance to magic.
Problem is, I won't do much good damage-wise. But at least I can Bless people, use Plant Growth to help keep people at bay, or use Protection fighting style and Help to cover friends.
In the same idea, a Life Cleric would work well: just spend your time distributing Healing Words, keeping Bless or higher buffs active or Help in whatever way you can while having sheathed yourself into Sanctuary.

Another option I see is Hill Dwarf Abjurer Wizard: you will obviously hurt much, but at least if you survive the first few levels you can count a bit on the Ward. More importantly, you can just focus on non-casting-dependent spells and rituals, so at least you can be useful outside of combat.

The near last one is a plain Human Fighter. Advantages:
- Archetypes can all help you cope: Champion means you will hit a bit more often even thanks to improved crit, Battlemaster give you useful things to do (Commander's Strike obviously, Manoeuvering also helps) but really the best will be obviously Eldricht Knight (utility cantrips, cantrip of damage reduction, utility/defense spells).
- With so many ASI, you can bump CON once then just stack utility/defensive feats: Tough of course, but also Healer, Magic Initiate, Observant (with Comprehend Languages, be a good spy) or Keen Mind (be the one that spends time in libraries to then know everything about the location you are exploring or foes you are fighting).

Finally, the joker for all those character with crappy rolls, Moon Druid. Start as a variant Human with Resilient: Constitution, take Tough and Warcaster (or Healer feat) ASAP. Focus on using all those great non-WIS dependent spells like Fog Cloud, Heat Metal, Conjure Animals while Wild Shaping into sturdy or offensive creatures depending on your current objective.

From all these, easiest is without any doubts the Moon Druid. Others can be fun to play though.

In short, my general view on this would be "don't even try to bump stats except *maybe* CON, don't even try to be any good at offense, just stack as many features as you can that can be good for party even with 4 everywhere".
And there are certainly many ways to do that.
If UA is allowed, then I'd probably go Halfling Fighter just for the sake of stacking many powerful feats, including the cheated racial one of Halfling that allows you to force a reroll.

[Tanarii]

Tactically, Fighter or pally seems kinda boring. You're basically making a character who is designed to block space in the front line so enemies can't move through, and hopefully not get hit due to high AC. Even then, you're being grappled right out of the line easily, and oh-so vulnerable to magic / save attacks.

I like the buff-bot cleric best after moon Druid. At least you've got a full set of spell slots to use, even if it's a limited complement of prepared spells. So you're doing Something other than just kinda standing there occupying space.

Note this is entirely a perception. But it's a common one. It's the same reason players rarely make Dodge-tank Fighters to occupy the front line, even though it's insanely effective at lower levels. But give them a NPc henchmen designed for it and they'll happily have them do exactly that while they stand behind with their magic-using PC lobbing attacks past them.

[Malifice]

Tactically, Fighter or pally seems kinda boring. You're basically making a character who is designed to block space in the front line so enemies can't move through, and hopefully not get hit due to high AC. Even then, you're being grappled right out of the line easily, and oh-so vulnerable to magic / save attacks.

I like the buff-bot cleric best after moon Druid. At least you've got a full set of spell slots to use, even if it's a limited complement of prepared spells. So you're doing Something other than just kinda standing there occupying space.

Note this is entirely a perception. But it's a common one. It's the same reason players rarely make Dodge-tank Fighters to occupy the front line, even though it's insanely effective at lower levels. But give them a NPc henchmen designed for it and they'll happily have them do exactly that while they stand behind with their magic-using PC lobbing attacks past them.

Dont forget Moo-druids can blat slots as bonus actions to self heal while in bear shape.

Just wander around in beast form all the time, regenerating and mauling crap. Id probably go Dwarf for the +1 HP/ level and bonus to Con and Wis.

[Citan]

Tactically, Fighter or pally seems kinda boring. You're basically making a character who is designed to block space in the front line so enemies can't move through, and hopefully not get hit due to high AC. Even then, you're being grappled right out of the line easily, and oh-so vulnerable to magic / save attacks.

I like the buff-bot cleric best after moon Druid. At least you've got a full set of spell slots to use, even if it's a limited complement of prepared spells. So you're doing Something other than just kinda standing there occupying space.

Note this is entirely a perception. But it's a common one. It's the same reason players rarely make Dodge-tank Fighters to occupy the front line, even though it's insanely effective at lower levels. But give them a NPc henchmen designed for it and they'll happily have them do exactly that while they stand behind with their magic-using PC lobbing attacks past them.
I generally agree but still feel you undersell Pally and Fighter quite a bit. ;)

Suggestions provided so far in the thread are focused on what such a character could bring by himself to the party, without any other help.

Even in that regard, any martial with Protection and Help can still provide something useful to the fight. A Paladin still has spells that are useful to the party (like Bless, which he can use while Cleric concentrates on Spirit Guardians), and can grab Magic Initiate for some complement, while using Lay on Hands as an action to get people up. An Eldricht Knight could serve as mobile cover for another while maintaining an annoying Fog Cloud or try to shove creatures prone (even with such a strong malus, there are chances to manage, especially if you can grab UA feats for Expertise or instead Enlarge yourself).
Any people with Mold Earth or Minor Illusion can also get interesting things to do, creating covers for allied ranged/casters to take cover beyond.
Even Resistance could be worth for such a character, acting as a real bodyguard for another key ally.
By the way, in that regard, I think Nature Cleric is in fact much better than Life, at least until the third tier, thanks to the permanent "halve elemental damage" reaction. Through though, once past 12 level or so, Life Cleric starts having an amazing healing ability that may be worth more, and the auto-maximized healing at the end is one of the best capstones one could ever hope for. :)
Long story short, I think that with just a tad of anticipation when creating the character, even martial ones would find something efficient to do besides being a meatbag.

Beside that, once you start taking party teamwork into account, things change greatly. Between buffs like weapon enhancements, to-hit enhancements, basic magical equipment like +1 weapons, and party features like Wolf Barb or tactics like Shove that provide advantage on attacks, chances are you could actually make a martial worth playing. Even if he will still be clearly subpar compared to a character of similar class and level, at least he can go on offense against the lesser foes.
Even a Warlock could actually make a half-decent attacker with Devil's Sight and Darkness combo, paired with Repelling Blast, and possibly a Bless from someone.

In the same mindset, with proper party tactics, even a character just spending its time trying to Shove or just Dodge while actively trying to be the center of attention can work quite well and be considered a sufficient contribution to the party, because this ends as making any AOE action allies may take much more interesting.
There are honestly many low-level spells that can be combined to accomplish such an objective so as long as you have either a Bard, a Druid, a Sorcerer or a Wizard you're bound to find a spell combo that works...With Land Druid being the obvious best at that since they can shape the battlefield all alone, although it is obviously taxing: prebuff the martial with Longstrider, then at the start of the fight cast Wind Wall while the Fighter Dashes towards enemies. Once enough people are aggroed around, cast Plant Growth. Now only enemy casters can hope to affect the rest of the party, whereas archers and melee have only one valid target: your scapegoat martial. Good luck to him though, he will definitely have trouble surviving more than two or three turns unless built for this. :smallbiggrin:

This does not necessarily mean that the party has to revolve all tactics around this character and this particular objective either, just that everyone know and agree that this character accepts to be a sacrificial goat for when AOE tactics are a thing (well, at least if party has neither Sorcerer nor Evoker). ;)

The only flaw of such character, if built as a martial (whether half-caster, third-caster or not) would be to prove mostly useless against the few high-CR, extreme danger creatures that lurk in the world. While even a high-level caster with 3 everywhere would still be extremely great to have in the party.

[GlenSmash!]

Mountain Dwarf Wizard, Heavy armor at 4, support spells, and a boatload of contingencies. Wizard has the widest variety of spells that simply work.

Or go with the obvious answer: moon druid casting conjure animals.

^

This, I think you either focus on spells that don't require an attack/force a save and/or go Moon Druid.

[ZorroGames]

Of course I go Mountain Dwarf, +2 ST and +2 Con. Whoohoo :smallwink: fives. :smallbiggrin: