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Stormcrow
2007-08-16, 12:46 AM
So yes I know there are crappy sap rules in the PHB but they don't represent what I'm looking for. It would be increadibly powerful to apply it to everyone so possibly just rogues and ninjas...

Basically possibly as a feat I'm looking at DC 10 + Damage Dealt fort save or unconcious for 1D4 hours. Like a real sap.

Maybe one of those feats that lets you swap out sneak attack/sudden strike dice?

Seffbasilisk
2007-08-16, 12:50 AM
Complete Scoundrel has 'Ambush' feats....but none cannon that I know of make save vs unconsciousness.

Karsh
2007-08-16, 12:52 AM
Really, I'd say they're about spot on. An average human only has about 4 HP, so a rogue using Sneak attack with a sap should do about 4-5 points of nonlethal damage; enough to knock them out.

kjones
2007-08-16, 12:57 AM
Keep in mind that ninja are not proficient with the sap.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-08-16, 02:32 AM
Basically possibly as a feat I'm looking at DC 10 + Damage Dealt fort save or unconcious for 1D4 hours. Like a real sap.

Uhhhh. That would be pretty freakin' powerful, man. I mean, you might as well have a longsword feat that has DC 10 + Damage Dealt fort save or death. Like, y'know, a coup-de-grace on every hit.

The Assassin (DMG) has a class skill called Death Attack. By studying the mark for three full rounds, while remaining completely undetected, and then pulling off a successful Sneak Attack, he can attempt to either paralyze or kill the target (whichever he wants). The DC to avoid death is 10 + Assassin class level + Int. modifier, which is a lot lower than "10 + damage dealt" will ever be.

Seriously. Think about this. At level 10, a Rogue with, say, a +4 Str. modifier (not unlikely, given Str-boosting items) will be doing at least 6d6+4 damage on a sneak-attack, which averages to somewhere in the neighborhood of 22 damage. So you're asking someone to make a DC 32 Fort save or be KOed for 1d4 hours (which is equivalent to death in an encounter).

Base the DC on the ninja's Int. modifier, or (better yet) Wisdom modifier, and you'd start to get a little more balanced. Even so, that's pretty ridiculous for a feat, and it'd have to have some pretty heavy prereqs: other useless feats, wasted skillpoints, that kind of thing. "Damage dealt" is NEVER a good DC modifier for a save.

Zincorium
2007-08-16, 02:45 AM
Maybe one of those feats that lets you swap out sneak attack/sudden strike dice?

Head shot, from complete scoundrel, is 5 dice for a confusion effect.


But yeah, against any flatfooted opponent you're dealing many dice of sneak attack damage, which is all nonlethal. Nonlethal = current hit points means unconsciousness.

What you're looking to do is bypass hitpoints with a weapon, and that's never a good thing to have in the game, for the same reason as called shots. Enemies with high hit points are not your average mook, they're the kind of guy you hit over the head with a rock without phasing 'em too much. Literally, they can get hit with a boulder and be fine, but a sack full of marbles makes them crumple to the floor?

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-16, 02:46 AM
You're basically asking for the Feat to work like Devastating Critical(DC 10+1/2 level+Str or die), which is an Epic Feat. By the way, Devastating Critical requires 1 good Feat(Power Attack), 2 sucky Feats(Cleave and Great Cleave aren't worth jack past about Level 10, unless you're dusting everything you hit in 1 hit),+3 more(2 regular and 1 Epic) Weapon Specific Feats(Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Overwhelming Critical), and only works with the specific Weapon. If you're really so desperate for your character to be press-ganging, have them take up the Rogue class, get the Crippling Strike class feature, maybe Hamstring/Staggering Strike, and have them run around crippling/staggering their opponents.:smalltongue:

Jimp
2007-08-16, 07:54 AM
Base the DC on the ninja's Int. modifier, or (better yet) Wisdom modifier, and you'd start to get a little more balanced.

Be careful with Int modifier though because some people like to have ninjas/rogues with high int for skill-whoring. Like me :smallbiggrin:

Dhavaer
2007-08-16, 07:58 AM
Nonlethal = current hit points means unconsciousness.

Close. Greater than current hit points means unconsciousness. Equal means staggered.

Funkyodor
2007-08-16, 08:04 AM
I'm thinking a better way might be if you sap an unsuspecting foe who does not know you are about to beat him upside the head (not a flat-footed foe, or a feinted foe, etc.), make it a DC 10+Str mod+1 per dice of sneak attack fortitude save or be knocked unconcious. High lvl enemies might fail on a very bad roll, low lvls enemies might succeed on a high roll. Just my 2c.

Jasdoif
2007-08-16, 01:42 PM
Keep in mind that ninja are not proficient with the sap.Also keep in mind that Sudden Strike doesn't work with nonlethal damage.

goat
2007-08-16, 05:43 PM
The sap is a weapon that really should have some sort of bonus coup-de-grace ability. If enemies who would normally be considered flat-footed due to unawareness were instead considered helpless, it could be much more effective.

Requiring that ability to get right up behind an enemy, remain there for a round without being noticed and then STILL be in a situation where you can take a full round action is why it should be powerful. In a multiple combatant situation, you just knocked someone out and probably alerted his mate. And that's assuming his friend didn't spot you sneaking up behind him in the first place.

AND it's still assuming that your handful of D6's is enough to knock out whoever you're attacking in one hit. Because if you don't, he's not flat-footed any more, and you're probably going to be running away as fast as you can or hoping that your measly damage output is enough to drop him just enough HP to make him drop...