Character build guidance (Cleric and Rogue)

[DeadPenny]

Playing 3.5e with a group consisting of a Half-Giant PsyWar, a True Necro, my Human Fighter, an NPC Elf Wizardy caster (the DM hasn't divulged much about her... I think she's a plot point), along with a Whisper Gnome Rogue and a Human Cloistered Cleric. All of us were given the option of rolling up to a free LA+2 character, be it racial or from a template. All of this to say... the cleric is bad. Like, really bad. We're all trying to help him out, as he usually plays a ranger (hence why he went CC, for Zen Archery). The DM has offered to allow him to "rebuild" the character, as long as his basic backstory and persona don't change, since ultimately the dynamic between him and the (secret) Necro is going to become a major part of the story arc.

Thus, I come to you guys for suggestions on a bitchin, somewhat "easy" to play Cleric who will be exciting and fun for this guy. The only restrictions are no more than LA+2. Pretty much all books are open to us.

Secondly, the rogue likes being rogue-y, but is aware that ultimately he'll be super inefficient in combat. He'd love suggestions on a progression for a successful rogue, building around battlefield mobility (he loves being in a flanking position) and sneak attack.

Thanks in advance y'all.

[AnimeTheCat]

As some first thoughts, Zen Archery isn't a bad idea, unless you guys are playing super high power in which case the cleric probably won't be the one that falls behind (it would likely be the rogue and the fighter more than the cleric, even a poorly built one still gets spells). I would suggest they change from Human to Elf or some other race that grants racial proficiency with Longbows. There are some pretty good variant races in the setting books and UA that would shore up a Zen Archery build. After that, it all comes down to spell selection really. Clerics are easy to play usually.

The rogue would benefit from two feats as far as I can tell. Travel Devotion (possibly accompanied by or as a part of a Cloisterd Cleric dip) and Martial Study: Distracting Ember. Ideally, the rogue will be going first so with travel devotion he/she should be able to full attack with two weapon fighting a flat footed opponent in the first round. in the subsequent rounds he/she can use either team mates or the distracting ember maneuver to continue moving as swift actions and full attacking with travel devotion active (and with CC, you should be able to do this for every combat during the day).

If the rogue isn't two weapon fighting, I would suggest a dip in sneak attack fighter. It gets an additional d6 of sneak attack and it gets martial weapon proficiency. greatswords are pretty good if you've got a good strength and if you can flank you can power attack and get your sneak attack damage which can be pretty big.

[GilesTheCleric]

All of this to say... the cleric is bad. Like, really bad. We're all trying to help him out, as he usually plays a ranger (hence why he went CC, for Zen Archery). The DM has offered to allow him to "rebuild" the character, as long as his basic backstory and persona don't change, since ultimately the dynamic between him and the (secret) Necro is going to become a major part of the story arc.

When you say bad, what do you mean? Do they not do enough damage? Do they not contribute to out-of-combat situations? Do they not contribute to in-combat situations?

[DMVerdandi]

How do you mess up a cleric? They can change their spells every day...
Like, the only way I can truly see someone messing them up is by being one of those types that gimps themselves for the sake of "muh role-play".


You can literally change your spells out to ALL published cleric spells.


The real questions are:

What do you consider "bad" (Because outside of the NPC, all of the other classes are pretty low tier)?

What are the levels you all are playing? (If you all are new to the game, level 4 and under is going to be hard mode.)?



For the rogue? Start taking levels in spell-thief immediately. It is pretty low tier, BUT, not so bad that it's unplayable, and with a feat or two it gets better.
Plus, spells is better than no spells; AND the flavor still matches up.

Alternatively,Levels in lurk.

[DeadPenny]

When you say bad, what do you mean? Do they not do enough damage? Do they not contribute to out-of-combat situations? Do they not contribute to in-combat situations?

For example: he wants to primarily focus on doing ranged damage and support buffs... except all he capable of doing consistently is support buffs. We're all relatively experienced players, but each one of us kinda sorta has our own niche and our game knowledge is mostly rooted within our niche. I generally play melee classes, but I have a rough understanding of Cleric mechanics and how OP they can be if designed to be so. That being said, the guy usually plays a Ranger, and he's getting frustrated by what he feels is an inability to contribute in-combat. We all want him to feel "more important" even if his combat contributions are less damage focused, which is why I've reached out to you guys. I'm not sure if a slightly different build can rectify the situation, or a change in RP, or even a different focus as far as his area of responsibility/expertise.

[Telonius]

For the Cleric, what's his alignment? If it's CG, I'd suggest a build like the one I'm using right now: Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple. You lose a couple levels of Cleric casting, but it might make him feel like he's doing more to help if he's taking a more "archer"-ish role with Eldritch Blast. The idea is that the Cleric's stuff will be more "passive benefit" out-of-combat stuff, while Eldritch Blasts let him contribute in-combat without burning through spell slots or engaging in melee. He'll be a bit more in his comfort zone for attacking from range.

[Eldariel]

What level and sources? You can make an excellent Cleric Archer in Core starting from level 7-9 while with more sources, it comes online earlier and you have more options. Such a character can also contribute with debilitating spells and summons when called for. These options get significantly better and more numerous outside Core. Divine Metamagic is a huge shot in the arm for Clerics (use with Quicken or Persistent Spell) to buff more efficiently. Divine Spell Power is also very useful. And such. Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Power, etc.

The first and most important thing to do is to get out of the healbot mentality, buff before or outside combat and focus mostly on high impact actions; full attacks, offensive spells and high impact buffs (the level of Haste). Combat actions for combat. All day buffs and such for the rest. Then build around that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Being vocal about your buffs is a little thing you can do to help them feel better. A bit of "hah, woulda missed if not for Prayer" might help them feel more useful. You also might consider switching to Spontaneous Cleric (which should still be compatible with Cloistered, if you want to go that route).

[DeadPenny]

For the Cleric, what's his alignment?

I have to check... but I think he's either NG or CG.


What level and sources?

Currently lvl 4, and virtually all source books are allowed, with the exception of Dragon Magazine. We do, however, have to be able to source our material via pdf or what have you, so that it can be blessed by the DM... And the DM is pretty chill, more focused on the story and everyone having a good time than anything else, unless you try to slip Pun-Pun by him or something.


I appreciate the ideas/pointers/tips. I'll definitely be passing this along to him.

[Eldariel]

Level 4, hrm. Level 1 and 2 buff spells are pretty minor by and large. Blessed Aim [Spell Compendium] helps an archer and Divine Favor is a solid buff with caster level bonuses (Divine Spell Power [Complete Divine] comes to mind, and Ankh of Ascension [Magic Item Compendium] as a 9k item option). Divine Favor at +2 (CL 6) to hit and damage is generally worth casting, particularly for archers with multiple attacks. Ray of Hope [Book of Exalted Deeds] is also quite nice from a 1st level slot. Frost Weapon [Frostburn] is probably the best damage buff available on these levels. Elation [Book of Exalted Deeds] is a useful buff but sadly you need an adjusting bow (Bow of Wintermoon [Magic Item Compendium] does this even without the Relic powers and is only 3400gp though) to make use of Str boosts for damage. It's a team buff too though, which is nice.

Other better buffs are defensive; Tyche's Touch [Lost Empires of Faerun] is great, Conviction [Spell Compendium] boosts some saves, Protection from Alignment is a superb spell vs. a given alignment, Resist Energy has obvious uses, etc. Protective Interposition [Forges of War] is a great utility spell; the first teleport you get access to.

Devotion feats from Complete Champion could help a lot. Knowledge Devotion would work if he'd be interested in the "study my enemies" angle though to get enemy type dependent damage and hit bonuses. Would more or less require going Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cloisteredCleric) (loses BAB but the attack bonuses make up for it and down the lane there's Divine Power to recoup the losses for individual fights), where he could get the Devotion for free by trading away Knowledge Domain for the feat. Divine Insight [Spell Compendium] and Guidance of the Avatar [WotC site (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)] can boost the Knowledge check and thus improve your bonuses. Law and Animal Devotion are also quite useful though Law sounds to be out by alignment. Chaos Devotion is worse than Law Devotion but okay too. If his Charisma is high, Divine Might [Complete Divine] could also be a good way to add Cha to damage Cha+3 times per day (but there are other uses for your Turn Undead, which are probably more powerful).

One unescapeable fact is that Archer needs Rapid Shot. The difference is just too big. So Dex 13 is paramount even to Zen Archer. This is rather feat intensive so using domains that grant feats is a solid option to cover some of the feat burden. Options include: Elf domain grants PBS. Planning domain helps for DMM: Persist through granting Extend Spell and Undeath domain grants Extra Turning both of which help fuel the feats. Other than that, domains should mostly be used for domain spells, but few good Archer buffs exist on the very lowest of levels.

Naturally, low level Clerics shine at offensive casting too. That's the easiest option on how to make them work; Ice Slick [Frostburn], Conjure Ice Beast [Frostburn], Dark Way [Spell Compendium] (wall of force), Rigor Mortis [Heroes of Horror], Silence, Shatter, Spiritual Weapon, Alicorn Lance [Silver Marches Web Enhancement], etc. are all very powerful utility/offensive spells, and Summon Monster is quite strong too (though it really gets going on Summon Monster III; Conjure Ice Beast is largely superior early on). The best buffs come online at spell levels 3-5 (I'm thinking Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Power, Bane Blade [Unapproachable East], Recitation [Spell Compendium], Righteous Wrath of the Faithful [Spell Compendium], Divine Agility [Spell Compendium], Lesser Holy/Fiendish Transformation [Spell Compendium], Lesser Visage of the Deity [Spell Compendium], Surge of Fortune [Complete Champion], Girallon's Blessing + Fuse Arms [Spell Compendium], Consumptive Field [Spell Compendium], etc.). Domains can also include buff spells; Polymorph of any kind, Greater Invisibility/Blink, etc.


As for the Rogue:
- Craven [Champions of Ruin] adds her level to her Sneak Attack Damage. This is a nice direct damage buff. Particularly for a TWFer.
- Travel Devotion [Complete Champion] is a huge shot in the arm. Either taking the feat works but that's just one use per day. A level of (Cloistered) Cleric would grant Turn Undead which can fuel additional Travel Devotion uses while also granting benefits in another domain and the spells.
- One level in Swordsage [Tome of Battle] would also work. You get Sudden Leap [Tiger Claw] maneuver for swift action movement and some maneuvers that enable setting up sneak attack such as the mentioned Distracting Ember and later on Cloak of Deception and the like. This would optimally be taken on character level 5 to gain access to 2nd level maneuvers immediately though. Later on he could take a second level and learn the "Assassin's Stance" for some extra Sneak Attack damage. This would also open up the option of using the Shadow Blade [Tome of Battle] feat to add Dex to damage.
- Penetrating Strike [Dungeonscape] trades Trap Sense (useless) for the ability to sneak attack enemies normally immune to SAs as long as you're flanking. I highly recommend taking it to ensure she should remain useful even in the hard fights. This can be taken on Rogue 3.
- Darkstalker [Lords of Madness] allows using Hide-checks against Blindsense, Blindsight, Scent and Tremorsense. For anyone using Hide a lot it's basically mandatory down the line.